Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 01 Jun 2010 17:13

I think Israeli reaction was a little over the top. They could have easily blocked the aid ships with their frigates and asked them to turn back. There were other means like water cannon that governments use against greenpeace ships or something similar. Firing weapons at civilian ships is not a very smart thing to do especially one that can kill some one. I admire Israelis for the way the handle hijacking and their national security but this one could have easily been avoided. Plus GOI does not need to blindly support every action by Israelis. MEA's lip service was good enough but at the same time our defence relationship with Israel should not be tied to Israels foreign policy or our own domestic vote bank politics. We are a paying customer of their hardware there is no aid / begging bowl relationship so we should not hesitate to speak our mind.

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 01 Jun 2010 17:15

Turkish government seems to be nurturing ummah wet dreams like the pakis. No wonder pakis are full of praise of turkish leadership in past few months.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 01 Jun 2010 17:21

Thanks Sanku

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 01 Jun 2010 17:22

Israel needs to be over the top, when the push comes to shove, they need to make sure that they take out 100 eyes for the one they lose.

That is the ONLY way they can survive.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 01 Jun 2010 19:48

Turkish Govt and Turkish Military are two different things. There is absolutely no chance that Turkey will even think about confrontation with Israel. Israel can rout out all Arabic nations in a single sweep with/without US help. Turkish Government is rabidly Islamic in nature while Turkish Military is on the secular end. Turkish Governement is like boiling water which needs to let off its steam. If turkish government rises above a certain level turkish military will swift into action and overthrow erdogan government. So its is an internal confrontation within turkish government and turkish military that is churning out in this form. Part of it is also the personal alterego of erdogan to overpower the military with his islamic viewpoint. This however will backfire for sure. After all, turkey also has Kurdish problem in backyard and would loose a lot if it plays with fire too much. Arabian nations know this and dont give a shit about it.

Wonder what "Al-Qaeda" will think about it. Seems that they are locked in wrong part of the world where action is dying down. Got to Go to Gaza..Martyers...Go..

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 01 Jun 2010 20:07

bahdada wrote:The MEA should have stfu or at least toned down the verbosity. One things for sure now, any future "peace convoys" will think twice before testing the laws of Israel.

Linky:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100601/ap_ ... lestinians

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 01 Jun 2010 20:14

Sanku wrote:Check the Mid-west thread; Turkey has a new Government in power, a far more Islam-pasand one.

They have already abrogated many alliances made with Israel and are going with Iran now.

Turkey has had the same government in power since 2002. This is not a new occurrence.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 01 Jun 2010 20:20

ashish raval wrote:Turkish Govt and Turkish Military are two different things. There is absolutely no chance that Turkey will even think about confrontation with Israel. Israel can rout out all Arabic nations in a single sweep with/without US help. Turkish Government is rabidly Islamic in nature while Turkish Military is on the secular end. Turkish Governement is like boiling water which needs to let off its steam. If turkish government rises above a certain level turkish military will swift into action and overthrow erdogan government. So its is an internal confrontation within turkish government and turkish military that is churning out in this form. Part of it is also the personal alterego of erdogan to overpower the military with his islamic viewpoint. This however will backfire for sure. After all, turkey also has Kurdish problem in backyard and would loose a lot if it plays with fire too much. Arabian nations know this and dont give a shit about it.

Wonder what "Al-Qaeda" will think about it. Seems that they are locked in wrong part of the world where action is dying down. Got to Go to Gaza..Martyers...Go..

Not necessarily true anymore, slowly over the past 8 years the leadership of the army has been a lot more AKP-friendly and the ones who aren't have been removed. Without a doubt there are major secularist elements still there, but at this point there's no question who is in charge.

Israel had a right to react and stop the boats and while it may have been heavy handed, it was still going to become an incursion into Israeli territory. Was it a smart decision though? I don't think so.

IMO opposing Israel was strategically brilliant from Turkey's part. They have managed to multiply their geopolitical influence and prestige.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 01 Jun 2010 20:26

Carl_T wrote:
Sanku wrote:Check the Mid-west thread; Turkey has a new Government in power, a far more Islam-pasand one.

They have already abrogated many alliances made with Israel and are going with Iran now.
Turkey has had the same government in power since 2002. This is not a new occurrence.

2003 actually, and uh, I was making that statement in a longer context of Turkish history.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 01 Jun 2010 20:53

Sanku wrote:And how is that known? Did they cooperate with the Govt of Israel?

What if there were?

So, should we label them as terrorists for not cooperating with Israel?

Sanku wrote:Israel is a tiny country with no strategic depth, and its people are a drop in the ocean of hostility with no where to go.

They know their survival hinges on a one and only method -- they are doing that.

Why this hostility ? Again the question points to the circumstances under which Israel was created and the way it perceives itself and others.

bart wrote:Why then did they refuse Israel's offer to transfer the goods to Gaza after security checks?

Both Israel and Egypt had offered to transfer their humanitarian aid to Gaza. The activists point out that they couldn't do that as Israel doesn't allow any construction material into Gaza and that was one of the main components of the aid they were trying to get through.
And they perceive the sea-blockade to illegal as Gaza (Palestinian Authority) is responsible for it's own affairs. This is partially correct but Israel's blockade is to prevent any arms smuggling.

bart wrote: Why did they go about attacking the Israelis. It is clear that it was not an 'aid' mission but an attempt to provoke Israel into reacting, and try to break the embargo on Hamas

[/quote]

IMHO the activists did expect confrontation with Israel. It was obviously wrong for them to attack the commandos who weren't shooting at them. I agree that their aim was to break the blockade but the blockade on Gaza and not on Hamas.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 01 Jun 2010 21:03

KrishG wrote:>>And how is that known? Did they cooperate with the Govt of Israel?

So, should we label them as terrorists for not cooperating with Israel?

In the circumstances? I would -- yes, they were terrorist supporters at least.

Sanku wrote: Why this hostility ? Again the question points to the circumstances under which Israel was created and the way it perceives itself and others.

Why the hostility?

Clearly you have not been following Israels history.

Perception comes to Israel as torn limbs of Jews killed in suicide bombs and rockets fired from Gaza.

Its easy.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 01 Jun 2010 21:35

Sanku wrote:
In the circumstances? I would -- yes, they were terrorist supporters at least.

Where they trying smuggle in weapons to arm Hamas ? Hamas is a terrorist organization but by trying to provide aid to Gazans it doesn't mean they are supporting Hamas or opposing Israel doesn't qualify one as a terrorist.

Sanku wrote: Clearly you have not been following Israels history.

Perception comes to Israel as torn limbs of Jews killed in suicide bombs and rockets fired from Gaza.

Its easy.

It's not that easy. The reasons for confrontation goes back to many intertwined events which all lead to establishment of Israel.

The main reason is the way in which Israel was created, as a Jewish state, undermining the aspirations of the people of the land. It's view that Israel was historically the land of the Jews and that justifies bringing in refugees from all around while sidelining the local population.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 01 Jun 2010 22:03

KrishG wrote:
Sanku wrote:
In the circumstances? I would -- yes, they were terrorist supporters at least.
Where they trying smuggle in weapons to arm Hamas ? Hamas is a terrorist organization but by trying to provide aid to Gazans it doesn't mean they are supporting Hamas or opposing Israel doesn't qualify one as a terrorist.

You miss a fundamental point, how do the Israeli's know that they are not? The runners did not coordinate with Israel.

Israel has a blockade on Gaza for a reason? Why would they allow any one to flout it?

Who knows there were batteries of S 300 in there as well?

Sanku wrote: The main reason is the way in which Israel was created, as a Jewish state, undermining the aspirations of the people of the land. It's view that Israel was historically the land of the Jews and that justifies bringing in refugees from all around while sidelining the local population.

Well we have been over this before, check previous pages before being told off and not discuss this here. Suffices to say -- that if we go to root causes, the Jews owned the land before they were chased away so they are only returning right?

The people of the land were the ones who first sold the Jews their land and then tried to take it back when they tried to actually live in it and make it a worthwhile place from the desert.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 01 Jun 2010 22:56

Sanku wrote:You miss a fundamental point, how do the Israeli's know that they are not? The runners did not coordinate with Israel.

Israel has a blockade on Gaza for a reason? Why would they allow any one to flout it?

The reason people were trying to defy the blockade is exactly because Israel doesn't allow whatever aid they were bringing into Gaza.

Sanku wrote:the Jews owned the land before they were chased away so they are only returning right?

The people of the land were the ones who first sold the Jews their land and then tried to take it back when they tried to actually live in it and make it a worthwhile place from the desert.

That doesn't entitle them to act against the will of a sizable percentage of population, does it?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 02 Jun 2010 01:07

KrishG wrote: The reason people were trying to defy the blockade is exactly because Israel doesn't allow whatever aid they were bringing into Gaza.

That is not true, Israel had at many times offered to cooperate. These folks didnt want to.

Sanku wrote: That doesn't entitle them to act against the will of a sizable percentage of population, does it?

Which does not allow a sizable percentage of the population to use force against the minority either.

Who started the use of force? Its just that in this case the numerical minority refused to oblige.

Uri_T · Post by **Uri_T** » 02 Jun 2010 01:14

The Turks were rejected by main stream Europe thats why they went to Iran Syria
and Palestinians " freedom fighters "..............the hell with Israel....... I wonder if they call
the Turkish Kurds freedom fighters as well........or the Armeinians

Israel must be strong in this crazy section of the world

http://www.idf-armor.blogspot.com/

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 02 Jun 2010 01:38

Turkey was behaving like a wolf in a sheep's clothing inorder to get inside Europe and islamize it. France and Austria knows this tactic very well as France will have a massive islamic population by 2030 and will affect all its foreign policies. Europe tested Turkey on number of occassions to confirm its apprehensions which were indeed true. It has also now tested Turkey on anti-semitism. I can now say comfortably that Turkey has validated its anti-semitic attitude which was artificially supressed by its government for so long to get into Europe. The pillar made of cards is fallen now. Turkey has no saviour. Neither a European identity nor a Arab one so it is ranting up and down trying to position itself. Unfortunately, Israeli's are teachers of the school where turkish are students. So they know the game very well. A question of perception also arises. For me a country has every right to defend itself who knows there could be suicide bombers in this flotilla too. A concerned nation will never keep any stones unturned for safety of its citizens. It does not matter what world thinks about the situation.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 02 Jun 2010 01:59

Israel the complete right to defend itself.It was completely justified in raiding the flotilla.By the as far as turkish protests are concerned they should bear it in mind that they are the ones who are occupying kurdish nation.They were the ones who committed genocide against armenians.

Moreover it is not jerusalem which is occupied territory(it always belonged to jews).Rather it is istanbul/constantinopole(which was captured by turks in the 15th century).It is the Turks who should vacate constantinopole as soon as possible.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 02 Jun 2010 02:02

^+1 Absolutely

Another point to note, the rule of thumb is if the leftist pseudo liberals and the greens join forces it will only be for nefarious purposes.
A nation whose very existence it threatened everyday by blood thirsty savage neighbours will react in a way it deems right
Kudos to Israel, the leftist goons will now think 400 times before they send out this piss flotilla

ajit_tr · Post by **ajit_tr** » 02 Jun 2010 02:25

George Friedman sums it well when he says in the report...
Flotillas and the Wars of Public Opinion

mission was simply an attempt toprovoke the Israelis.[/B] That was certainly the case. The mission was designed to demonstrate that the Israelis were unreasonable and brutal. The hope was that Israel would be provoked to extreme action, further alienating Israel from the global community and possibly driving a wedge between Israel and the United States. The operation’s planners also hoped this would trigger a political crisis in Israel.

Israel was on slippery slope the aim was to prove israel...now taking cue from this same thing can be played up in kashmir ofcourse it reached to same level of Turkish Freedom flotilla during amarnath demonstrations in J&K when valley people marched towards muzafarabad in POK with their trucks.Now If POK people or say valley people march to wards POK or the valley then india will be in the same situation as israel was.So freedom Flotilla can be replayed in indian kashmir too ...remember i said it here and watch out coming months in kashmir valley.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 02 Jun 2010 02:35

Saar, international waters are 400% safer than Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakbaristan. Do you for a moment think that the Leftist liberal Thugs would risk their lives by entering POK?. A freedom flotilla or what-ever comprising Pakbarians can be mowed down and no body is going to ask questions as they can safely be called "terrorists". If the Hurrirats want to march towards POK then they should be allowed to provided they agree not to come back.
Frankly there is no comparison between Kashmir and Palestine, two entirely different issues with the only common thing being the people who created the problem in the first place.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 02 Jun 2010 02:36

I wonder why there wasnt a peace flotilla to supply humanitarian assistance to people of Darfur. I guess that one is not coming any time soon.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 02 Jun 2010 02:49

Anujan wrote:I wonder why there wasnt a peace flotilla to supply humanitarian assistance to people of Darfur. I guess that one is not coming any time soon.

+1

Sadler · Post by **Sadler** » 02 Jun 2010 03:07

bahdada wrote: The MEA should have stfu or at least toned down the verbosity. One things for sure now, any future "peace convoys" will think twice before testing the laws of Israel. Also, [email protected] whole point of a democracy is so that we can disagree or have the right to freely express dissatisfaction with a govt.

Israel is one country that knows it can't afford to play it proportional with these vermin, otherwise just by attrition they'd be wiped out.

Screaming the Islamic Battlecry celebrating Jewish Genocide. That's peaceful alright.

Bahdada,
Thx for posting the video. And for the supporting comments from various members. Shalom.

Sadler · Post by **Sadler** » 02 Jun 2010 03:11

Partly off-topic, but i remember a lot of posts about a couple of yrs ago about how porkistan was using the train and road links between the two countries to smuggle fake currency and weapons to moslem terrorists. Just an FYI for those who advocate unrestricted access of goods into the Gaza strip.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 02 Jun 2010 04:32

Pictures of Weapons Found on the Mavi Marmara Flotilla Ship, 31 May 2010

munna · Post by **munna** » 02 Jun 2010 04:44

Israel is well within its rights to defend itself, no doubt about it. Period.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 02 Jun 2010 04:56

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php? ... 2010-06-01

Turkey’s recalling of its ambassador and canceling of three military drills are the most concrete signs thus far of the longer and much larger-scale diplomatic row indicated by Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s speech Tuesday, coupled with Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu’s address to the U.N. Security Council and other diplomatic activities.

But as Turkey stays hard on Israel’s heels, Erdoğan’s statements show that Turkey will only target the current Israeli coalition government, led by Benjamin Netanyahu and Avigdor Liebermann, in retaliation for the attack, which ended with as many as 19 dead.

This government has become the main source of trouble in the region, Erdoğan indicated in his speech, reflecting the prime and foreign ministers’ previous decisions to not hold any high-level meetings with the current Israeli leadership. With reciprocal accusations from both sides since the famous Davos spat making it impossible to reduce tension, the only possibility for reconciliation between Ankara and Tel Aviv seems to be a change of administration in Israel.

Erdoğan made it clear that Turkey has no problem with either the Israeli people or the Israeli state, calling on the country’s citizens to stand up against the Netanyahu-Lieberman government, which he said hurts the interests of the Israeli people.

Full isolation of this government by the international community, backed by strong internal pressure, would surely start a process of removing the current Israeli leadership from power. This, of course, cannot be achieved solely by Turkey. Strong international determination in the international community is required, and Turkey will therefore try to gain the backing of the United Nations, NATO and other respectable international organizations. But the support of the United States is key.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 02 Jun 2010 05:04

The Israelis randomly allow and disallow items into Gaza. E.g., one month chocolate is allowed and another month it is not.

And among other things, Israel disallows paper, pens and inks to Gaza.

Israel may have a right to blockade Gaza to keep arms from entering, but they have no right to this restrictive and capricious blockade they've been carrying out. In any case, the goal is self-defence. {2006}Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said.

---
India should support the Irish who are attempting to run the blockade in the Rachel Corrie. In India's hour of desperate need, the Irish shipped food to India. India should stand with the humanitarians, and not with the crazy Netanyahu government, which is full of inner Pakistaniyat.

Finding common cause with that government will stain India too.

---
http://themagneszionist.blogspot.com/20 ... -gaza.html

In order to have a humanitarian crisis, you have to consider people human. Israel for a long time has treated Gazans as animals that ought to be kept alive because Israelis are not cruel to animals. The Israelis will recite the daily totals of humanitarian aid that they let in (which, of course, they don't pay a penny for.) The jailer considers himself a "humanitarian" if he lets the inmates eat. So, as animals, the Gazans are allowed to eat.

---

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 02 Jun 2010 05:06

An opinion piece from Turkey:
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php? ... 2010-06-01
Is Netanyahu a Crypto-Mullah?

Now we have every good reason to suspect that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and at least half of his cabinet must be crypto-mullahs as no other single act could have bolstered: a) the anti-Israeli sentiment all over the world, especially in Turkey, and b) the emerging and stronger-than-before Muslim pact in the Middle East. Anti-Israeli sentiments and stronger, better-concerted policies made out of anti-Israeli sentiment in its region won’t bring any good to the Israeli state whose ethos in recent years has sadly drifted from “reason” to “near insanity.”

munna · Post by **munna** » 02 Jun 2010 05:32

A_Gupta wrote:India should stand with the humanitarians, and not with the crazy Netanyahu government, which is full of inner Pakistaniyat.

Noble intentions indeed but these so called "humanitarians" are the ones collecting money to wage jihad on Indian armed forces in Kashmir and rest of India. One look at composition of the fellows on miscreant boats (especially the contingent from UK) is more than enough to tell you the real side of these "humanitarians". Israel has absolutely no comparison with Paqs, we are at worst neutral to the debate but certainly not supporting these "humanitarians".
After sea raid on Gaza aid flotilla, Israel insists they WILL free captives

ISMAIL PATEL

Ismail Patel compared Israel's occupation of Gaza to Nazi-occupied Europe.

The Muslim commentator compared Israel's occupation of Gaza to Nazi-occupied Europe. Writing about his decision to join the flotilla, the Leicester optician said: 'The situation in Gaza is unbearable and reminiscent of the Second World War, when hundreds of thousands of people were herded together like cattle. 'The only difference here is that we have formulated dozens of international treaties to ensure that this situation never again arises, and yet here we are facing it once more.'
Mr Patel, 48, who was on board the Mavi Marmara, is chairman of the Friends of al-Aqsa pressure group.

It has used the writings of discredited Holocaust denier Roger Garaudy to justify its support for the Palestinian resistance.
The married father-of-three is a spokesman for the British Muslim Initiative, which Islamwatchers claim is closely allied to Hamas

Frankly if he is a humanitarian then I am Mahatma Gandhi.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 02 Jun 2010 06:01

A_Gupta wrote:An opinion piece from Turkey:
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php? ... 2010-06-01
Is Netanyahu a Crypto-Mullah?

Now we have every good reason to suspect that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and at least half of his cabinet must be crypto-mullahs as no other single act could have bolstered: a) the anti-Israeli sentiment all over the world, especially in Turkey, and b) the emerging and stronger-than-before Muslim pact in the Middle East. Anti-Israeli sentiments and stronger, better-concerted policies made out of anti-Israeli sentiment in its region won’t bring any good to the Israeli state whose ethos in recent years has sadly drifted from “reason” to “near insanity.”

I don't know about this article or anyother similar sentiments. Anti-Israeli sentiments are always perennial in Muslim world irrespective of what Israel does. If they does what they did with Turkey, these sentiments just come to front pages and nothing less or more.

I think Israel may be showing its nose to US for the recent fissures that are running with the current admin. In the midst of economic woes Mr. Netanyahu may be pulling something.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 02 Jun 2010 06:09

ajit_tr wrote:So freedom Flotilla can be replayed in indian kashmir too ...remember i said it here and watch out coming months in kashmir valley.

It was tried several years ago - a procession was simply going to walk into J&K from Pakistan. Didn't go anywhere.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 02 Jun 2010 06:12

munna wrote: Noble intentions indeed but these so called "humanitarians" are the ones collecting money to wage jihad on Indian armed forces in Kashmir and rest of India.

On the Rachel Corrie:

Mairead Maguire 66 Belfast, Ireland

Mairead Maguire is a Nobel Peace Laureate (l976) and Co-founder of Peace People, Northern Ireland. She was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for her work for peace and a nonviolent solution to the Ethnic/political conflict in Northern Ireland.

*Denis Halliday, Manhattan, NYC and Connemara, Ireland.

Denis Halliday was UN Assistant Secretary-General from 1994-98. Appointed by SG Boutros Ghali, he served as ASG UN Human Resources Management in New York and in mid 1997 to end 1998 as Head, Humanitarian Programme in Iraq to support the Iraqi people struggling under the genocidal impact of UN Sanctions.

MALAYSIAN

*Matthias Chang Wen Chieh 60, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia . Matthias Chang is a Malaysian of Chinese descent. He is a Barrister of 32 years standing and once served as the Political Secretary to the Fourth Prime Minister of Malaysia, Tun Dr. Mahathir Mohamad.

He is the author of three bestsellers, “Future FastForward”, “Brainwashed for War, Programmed to Kill”, and “The Shadow Money-Lenders and the Global Financial Tsunami”, published in the US and in Malaysia. Since his student days in England in the late 1960s, he was and still is, actively involved in the anti-war movement spanning a period of 41 years. He is a Catholic but enjoins all to promote inter-faith understanding.

*MP Mohd Nizar bin Zakaria is a Member of the Malaysian Parliament.

*Shamsul Akmar bin Musa Kamal 46 , Selangor, Malaysia

*Mr. Shamsul Akmar bin Musa Kamal is a journalist for over two decades, Columnist for The New Straits Times and The Star newspapers and is currently the Special Officer to Tun Dr. Mahathir Mohamad, the Fourth Prime Minister of Malaysia. He holds a Masters Degree in War Studies from King's College, University of London.

*Mohd Nizar bin Zakaria 41 , Perak, Malaysia

*Abdul Halim Bin Mohamed 29 , Selangor, Malaysia

*Abdul Halim is a broadcast journalist for news and current affairs Malaysia TV3

*Mohd Jufri Bin Mohd Judin 33, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 02 Jun 2010 06:19

While I disagree with US Retd. Col W.P. Lang on several things, he is nevertheless worth reading (and listening to, on the few occasions he appears on TV).
He wrote:
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semp ... round.html

I associated with and/or conducted liaison with The Israel Defense Force (IDF) for many years. This activity occurred as part of my regular duties as a US Army officer and later as a civilian executive of the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA). Since my retirement from US government service I have had many occasions to visit Israel and to watch the IDF in action against various groups of Palestinians all over the West Bank. I have many friends who are retired and/or reserve members of the IDF. My observations concerning the IDF are based on that experience.
....
In Beit Suhur outside Bethlehem, I have seen IDF troops shoot at Palestinian Christian women hanging out laundry in their gardens. This was done with tank coaxial machine guns from within a bermed up dirt fort a couple of hundred yards away, and evidently just for the fun of it.
....
In my travels in the west Bank in March of 2008, it was noticeable that the behavior towards Palestinian civilians of IDF troops at roadblocks was reminiscent of that of any group of post-adolescents given guns and allowed to bully the helpless in order to look tough for each other. I think the IDF would be well advised to grow some real sergeants.

And today he writes:
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semp ... tzer-.html

According to Spitzer, Hamas is an utterly implacable enemy of Israel. This despite Charlie Rose's interview with Khalid Mishal in Damascus which shows just the opposite.

The truth is that Israel has their own group of Palestinians that they prefer. That is the Palestinian Authority, the incredibly corrupt "forty thieves." THAT is why the Israeli government will not talk to Hamas.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 02 Jun 2010 06:26

The nature of the Israeli blockade is said to be thus (one source below, you can find similar things elsewhere)
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/20910 ... ds-to-Gaza

srael balks at releasing anything for reasons of national security and its foreign relations (its image), with no further explanation, except that the information in this case was so "confidential" that only a court in closed session should hear it, excluding Gisha attorneys.

Yet what logic excludes cans containing food, but allows Israeli produced tomato paste? Or why large tubs of margarine are embargoed but not individual sticks. Below is a list of allowed and banned items, subject to arbitrary changes and permissible quantities.

Wheat, animal feed, flour, cooking oil, cooking fat, sugar, salt, pasta, dates, garlic, chickpeas, rice, beans, lentils, kidney beans, margarine, some dairy products, powdered milk, frozen meat and fish, frozen vegetables, animal medicines, gas for medical use, empty bags for flour, certain medicines and medical equipment, diapers, toilet paper, detergent, washing liquid, shampoo, soap, toothpaste, toothbrushes, cleaning products for tiles and glass, toilet cleaner, yeast, fertilized and unfertilized eggs, some fruit, semolina, polyethylene for greenhouses, some agricultural materials, tea, instant and regular coffee, canned tuna, salami, canned meat, bath and washing-up sponges, cloths to mop floors, baby wipes, some canned goods other than fruit, dried herb mix, black pepper, chicken stock powder, blankets, olives, matches, candles, sticks for brooms, rubbish bins, mops, hand cleansing gel, aniseed, cinnamon, camomile, water dispensers, potatoes, mineral water, tahini, combs, hair brushes, shoes, wood for doorposts and window frames, small amounts of aluminum, and some kitchenware.

Prohibited items include common ones like sage, cardamon, jam, vinegar, chocolate, fruit preserves and dried fruit, seeds and nuts, biscuits and sweets, fresh meat, fabric for clothing, fishing rods, musical instruments, writing implements, notebooks, newspapers, toys, razors, heaters, horses, donkeys, goats, cattle, and chicks.

Any and as many of the above items can be changed arbitrarily by military order without further explanation - Israel's customary practice to harass, abuse and cause harm enough for Amnesty International (AI) to title its one year after Operation Cast Lead report, "Failing Gaza: No rebuilding, no recovery, and no more excuses," concluding with a "call to action" for Quartet members, the EU, Russia, UN and US, to end the blockade by all available means under international law to assure that Palestinian rights are restored, enforced, and assured.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 02 Jun 2010 06:44

The IDF was quick to present its version of events through the video, and that has changed many people's perception with the visuals of the people attacking the soldiers. Good media management.

A study of Israel's naval tactics in the Gaza flotilla

According to RCN Lt-Cmdr. Ret. Doug Thomas, the side boarding is the more dangerous of the two options, especially if on-board resistance is expected. “In this case, the ships were at speed . . . which makes it almost impossible. And they were hostile,” said Thomas, who is now the National Director of the Ottawa-based Navy League. “As Greenpeace has discovered, using firehoses or barbed wire can prevent anybody from getting on board your ship.”

“The helicopter’s moving. The ship’s moving. And now you’re dropping men right into the thick of it who were not welcomed,” said Thomas. “That’s a very, very aggressive insertion. But the upside – they didn’t fire from vessel-to-vessel. They opted for what I think was the right thing: to put people on board the ship and try to control it.”

The first few boarders did not have guns drawn. Some carried paintball guns. No stun grenades or smoke bombs were thrown onto the deck of the Mavi Marmara before the first man rappelled down.

“You don’t know how you’re going to be received until the first person hits the deck. That (IDF video) footage is telling. Tough situation,” said Thomas. “They got the rest of their people aboard quickly, and then the whole situation degenerated into a small-arms battle.” Thomas believes that approach – though it eventually got out of hand – was correct. He believes that preemptively firing at the deck or clearing it with smoke presents its own dangers.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 02 Jun 2010 06:46

A_Gupta wrote:
ajit_tr wrote:So freedom Flotilla can be replayed in indian kashmir too ...remember i said it here and watch out coming months in kashmir valley.
It was tried several years ago - a procession was simply going to walk into J&K from Pakistan. Didn't go anywhere.

Pakistan is not an 'ally' like Turkey is to Israel. India can mine the border, and Pakistanis can go home in bodybags.

The main thing is that Turkey does not have a jihadi-arming relationship with Gaza, the way Pakistan does with J&K. Therefore Pak has to keep any civil movements under wraps, so that they can pursue the more effective terror option.

I'm not sure why Turkey is more immune to US pressure than Pakistan. I suppose it's because their economy is healthier, and because they have no tensions with a larger neighbor. They seem to be mending relations with Russia, which is a beneficiary of Turkey's increasingly independent outlook.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 02 Jun 2010 07:02

A good article:
http://prospect.org/cs/articles?article ... gaza_folly

A Brief History of the Gaza Folly

The flotilla attack is just the latest in a series of bad decisions Israel has made about Gaza over the past five years.
.....

So we move back one more link, to then-Prime Minister Ariel Sharon decision's to leave Gaza unilaterally, rather than as part of a peace agreement with the Palestinian Authority. Sharon knew that reaching an agreement would mean yielding nearly all of the West Bank as well. He saw the Gaza withdrawal as a way to avoid making such a deal. But the unilateral pullout weakened Palestinian President Mahmud Abbas, an advocate of a negotiated peace, and legitimized Hamas and its "armed struggle."

Before and after the raid, Israeli officials referred to the flotilla as a "provocation" intended to harm Israel. That's probably true -- and only raises the question of why Israel allowed itself to be provoked. Part of the answer lies in a cognitive failure in understanding events long before 2005.

To explain, I need to turn for a moment to what I can only call an omen that occurred the day before the raid: At age 89, veteran Israeli dissident Lova Eliav died. In 1968, as a rising politician in the Labor Party, Eliav shocked his comrades by declaring that the Palestinians must be recognized as a people, that Israel must negotiate with them and give up the occupied territories. His heresy came after he spent months in the towns and refugee camps of Gaza and the West Bank, listening to Palestinians. It was a product of empathy, reason and the ability to believe in both peace and patriotism. He was driven from the party to the left margins of politics. Decades later, his ideas moved into the mainstream.

One more detail of his resumé: In 1947, as a young man, Eliav was the commander of a ship called the Haim Arlosoroff, which tried to bring Holocaust survivors to Palestine in defiance of British immigration limits. The voyage ended off the coast of Haifa when British marines took control of the ship. The would-be immigrants were interred in Cyprus. Eliav's mission was not a failure, though. It was one step in a campaign that stirred the world against British policy and led to the establishment of Israel.

Were Israel's current leaders able to read the past as Eliav did, to see oneself in one's adversary, they would have seen the implications of the voyage of the Mavi Marmara and the folly of interdicting it. They might even understand that their consistent effort to avoid a two-state solution is a mistake. Eliav embodied a heroic, humanistic Zionism. The omen of his passing was ignored. It remains for Israelis who believe in his path to demand that the government finally break the chain of folly.

The heroic, humanistic Zionism is mostly vanished from the halls of power in Israel.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 02 Jun 2010 09:26

munna wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:India should stand with the humanitarians, and not with the crazy Netanyahu government, which is full of inner Pakistaniyat.
Noble intentions indeed but these so called "humanitarians" are the ones collecting money to wage jihad on Indian armed forces in Kashmir and rest of India. One look at composition of the fellows on miscreant boats (especially the contingent from UK) is more than enough to tell you the real side of these "humanitarians".

Speaking of pakis and inner pakistaniyat, BRF seems to be ahead of the curve as usual again. Guess what?? Not only are there Brit Pakis on board, but the piss flotilla has 3 Bakistani Pakis as well!
Daily Whines Link about the 3 Pakis

Sify Article
Kalaignar-e-Pakistan himself is negotiating with the Israelis.

Interior Minister Rehman Malik separately said that the Interpol was making 'personal efforts' for the release of the three Pakistanis - journalists Talat Hussain and Raza Mehmood Agha of the Aaj TV channel and aid worker Nadeem Ahmed Khan of the Khubaib Foundation - who are currently detained in Israel.