West Asia News and Discussions

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abhishek_sharma
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by abhishek_sharma »

When Friends Fall Out

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/02/opini ... edman.html
Therefore, it has been painful to hear the same Prime Minister Erdogan in recent years publicly lash out with ever-greater vehemence at Israel over its treatment of the Palestinians in Gaza. Many see this as Turkey looking to ingratiate itself with the Muslim world after having been rebuffed by the European Union. I have no problem with Turkey or humanitarian groups loudly criticizing Israel. But I have a big problem when people get so agitated by Israel’s actions in Gaza but are unmoved by Syria’s involvement in the murder of the prime minister of Lebanon, by the Iranian regime’s killing of its own citizens demonstrating for the right to have their votes counted, by Muslim suicide bombers murdering nearly 100 Ahmadi Muslims in mosques in Pakistan on Friday and by pro-Hamas gunmen destroying a U.N.-sponsored summer camp in Gaza because it wouldn’t force Islamic fundamentalism down the throats of children.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Shameek »

For those who are interested, militaryphotos has quite a few pics of the incident. Also pics of the usually elusive S13.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Rahul M »

rohitvats wrote:
Rahul M wrote:
<SNIP>

vavinash, turkish navy is no pushover, it is well trained, modern and significantly larger than IDFSC. most of its inventory is of non-US origin. if the military wants to fight this battle is of course a different question. it would be interesting to see if erdogan is powerful enough for a showdown with the military.
Rahul da, unless the Turkish Navy gets 100% backing from their AF, those escort ships are not coming back - whatever be the state of Turkish Navy. The Israel AF is going to make micemeat of those ships. BTW, such an open show of force is challenging the sovereignity of a nation state. The dimensions are totally different.

The problem with these bombastic statements is defining the escalation ladder - at what level do you step down? As I said earlier, without topcover, TN Ships are toast. And if Turkish Generals prepare to provide top cover, which they should, then they would also need to prepapre for a fast and high-intensity air battle over mediterranean - you're bound to see another Bekka Valley (although with different results). It means mobilizing the whole gamut of your (Turkish Air Force) capabilities.

Another thing - who has made the statement about Turkish Navy ships escorting these flotillas? The government? Could this be an attempt to force the hand of Turkish Armed Forces by making a public announcement of support? Non-cooperation from Turkish Armed Forces will show them in bad light, no? JMT.
certainly rohit but do remember that TN has a significant advantage in subs, they can make life hell for IDFSC and even commercial shipping if the matter escalates further.politically though it is very unlikely.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by arun »

anmol wrote:
arun wrote: Israel’s attack on the flotilla took place in international waters, not territorial waters nor even disputed territorial waters. That makes it piracy.

Territory on either side of the LOC is a completely different kettle of fish.

Israel’s arrogance has gone to far in this case and they deserve whatever boots that contact their backside.
You are wrong, here is why :-

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b50 ... 1f002d49ce

International Humanitarian Law - Treaties & Documents
SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT

Neutral merchant vessels
Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States [such a Turkey in this case] may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture
Israel has been touting the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflict at Sea as justification for their condemnable action.

However there is an alternate view that the San Remo Manual applies only to cases where the laws of war between states are in force and in the instant case it is argued that that the laws of war do not apply in the conflict between Israel and Hamas, which isn't even a state.

In any event going by the condemnation dished out by the UN Security Council for Israel’s actions even after the US initiated bowdlerization of the statement, it would be more than reasonable to conclude that the alternate view prevails and there is no buy in for Israel’s position that its action was entirely justified.

I have to date not come across a single country that has issued an official statement that states that Israel was justified in its actions. Can you provide an instance?
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by arun »

Anujan wrote:
arun wrote:Let me now add some more of my own “uninformed BS” :wink: and say that the UN Convention on the Law of the Seas permits interdiction on the high seas only in the limited cases of drug smuggling, arms smuggling, involvement in the slave trade etc.

Interdicting a shipment of humanitarian aid on the high seas is not a permitted activity
despite the sleight of hand that the Government of Israeli is trying to palm off to the disbelieving most of the rest of the world via the link you posted.

It will be this belief of an arrogant Israeli disregard for international law that will result in the International community, including the bulk on those who are not members of the OIC, landing a firm kick on Israel’s backside unless the boot is expressly headed off by a US Veto.
arun-ji
During peacetime and in the *absence of a blockade*, Interdiction on the high seas is not normally permitted. That is piracy. That is because the international waters are nobody's territory, anybody is allowed to freely pass. (though there are some exceptions such as interdicting ships suspected of carrying smuggled nuclear material for example). You are right on that count.

On the other hand, anybody - irrespective of civilian, merchant or military - who attempts to breach a *blockade* can be interdicted. The question is, should they be interdicted only when they enter the blockaded area? The answer is no. Anybody with a stated intention of breaching a blockade can be interdicted as soon as he leaves the port. For example, if India were to blockade Karachi, anybody on the high seas, commercial, military and civilian with a stated intention of going to Karachi can be interdicted. The "flotilla" on several occasions stated their intention to breach the blockade. They had been informed in advance and when they were sailing about the existence and coordinates of the blockade. Hence it is undeniable that they were knowingly trying to breach the blockade and could be interdicted in international waters.

Now there are two questions which are valid

1. Is it moral for Israel to blockade Gaza?
2. Should they have used less force, maybe other methods like tear gas?

But that is not what is being discussed here.
Anujan-ji,

My response excludes areas which you have identified as either being in agreement with me or you have identified as an issue that is not being discussed.

That process of elimination leaves behind the second paragraph of your response to me and is quoted above for reference.

With the preliminaries out of the way, suffice for me to say that most if not all that you say in your second paragraph could be correct per the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflict at Sea.

HOWEVER there is a view that the San Remo Manual applies only to cases where the laws of war between states are in force and in the instant case it is argued that that the laws of war do not apply in the conflict between Israel and Hamas, which isn't even a state.

In the end, as I had said earlier, going by the condemnation dished out by the UN Security Council for Israel’s actions even after the US initiated bowdlerization of the statement, it would be more than reasonable to conclude that the alternate view prevails and there is no buy in for Israel’s position that its action was entirely justified.

Our Ministry of External Affairs got it spot on when they condemned Israel’s action.

That also seems to be case with the rest of the world as I have to date not come across a single country that has issued an official statement that states that Israel was justified in its actions.

Perchance would you know of a country that issued a statement justiying Israel's actions?
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Sanku »

arun wrote: HOWEVER there is a view that the San Remo Manual applies only to cases where the laws of war between states are in force and in the instant case it is argued that that the laws of war do not apply in the conflict between Israel and Hamas, which isn't even a state.
Even better, then NO rules apply to these vermin, who are just "non state actors" -- treat them as such. No Geneva convention nothing, do with them as you wish.
:mrgreen:
Our Ministry of External Affairs got it spot on when they condemned Israel’s action.
Incorrect it did no such thing. I merely despaired at the violence.
:mrgreen:
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Carl_T »

Seriously who cares about these noble protestors. They are stupid. They look to breach Israeli territory (did they have visas? :D ) and fight with commandos and die. I wonder what would happen if we attacked a Navy SEAL platoon with knives and rods.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

In time to come,this macho act from Bibi will be seen as a turning point in Middle East folklore.It is strange that boats have played such an important role in the history of Israel.One remembers the "Exodus",the boat in 1947 carrying Jewish refugees to Israel,whose brave captain Itzhak Aronovitch died last Dec.That boat captured the world's imagination,in a different way,just as the "Marmara" has today.The speed with which Israel is releasing the captured aid activists indicates that it has realised that the "overkill" used has harmed it grievously.The expected turnaround in Turkey's attitude towards Israel is most unfortunate for Israel as the apparent total alienation of Turkey,a key friend for decades, in fact is now displaying open hostility towards it.In addition,the UN,NATO and the Muslim world has united in condemning the attack with Egypt opening the Rafah border with Gaza.Israel is losing sympathy and friends fast.There will be concerted international pressure upon Israel to abandon its hardline blockade of Gaza,treat the Palestinians more humanely and get down to working towards a final settlement of the most intractable global dispute.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Israel Expels Activists After Raid, Reports Say

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/world ... tilla.html
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

Israel's version of events contested with some reports saying that the Israeli's shot first before boarding.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 88972.html

EXcerpt:
Flotilla attack: 'First the shots, then the ship was turned into a lake of blood'

Passengers on the aid ship are contesting Israel's version of events

By Ben Lynfield
Wednesday, 2 June 2010

Nilufer Cetin holds her son Turker Kaan Cetin after their return to Istanbul yesterday. The activist was on board the Mavi Marmara ship when it was attacked

The first accounts of activists involved in Israel's devastating raid on a flotilla of aid for Gaza sharply contradicted Israel's official version of events, with one passenger insisting that commandos opened fire before they boarded.

Nilufer Cetin, a Turkish woman who had been on the Mavi Marmara, which bore the brunt of the Israeli raid, said that the ship had "turned into a lake of blood" and she and her one-year-old child had to hide in a bathroom.

Mrs Cetin, one of 45 activists who flew out of Tel Aviv yesterday, said that the clashes on the ship were "extremely bad and brutal". She said that after Israeli ships "harassed" the flotilla for two hours, from around 10pm on Sunday, they returned at 4am and told the ships to turn back.
Meanwhile, although Israel has continued to bar journalists from speaking to the wounded in its hospitals, and apparently confiscated mobile phones and laptops, further details emerged yesterday of the activists' version of events. Youssef Ben Derbal, a French activist who was travelling on another of the ships boarded by the Israeli forces, told French radio on his return to Paris yesterday morning: "It all happened very quickly. At about 4am, suddenly we saw Zodiacs heading towards us ... We acted as pacifists; friends of mine of different nationalities were protecting the cabin from the soldiers with their bodies, their hands. They were attacked; they were hit."

Israel has said its soldiers had no choice but to open fire with live ammunition after facing danger to their lives following their boarding of the Mavi Marmara, which was carrying more than 600 passengers.

In Berlin, a former German MP who returned home after being on board the ship, said he saw only three activists resisting. "They had no knives, no axes, only sticks they used to defend themselves," he said. But he added that he could "not rule out" that others used weapons elsewhere on the boat.

Haneen Zuabi, an Israeli-Arab legislator who was on board the Marmara, said Israeli forces ignored her when she said that they should treat two gravely injured people, who later bled to death. The army denied the allegation.

Meanwhile, the Israeli commander of the forces that rappelled on to the Mavi Marmara from helicopters said at his bed in Rambam Hospital in Haifa that troops were scared for their lives. "Tens of people waited on the roof for each one of the soldiers," said the officer, identified only as Captain R. "They held sticks, axes and knives. I was the second person to come down on the rope. We thought there would be passive, even verbal resistance, [but nothing] of this magnitude. Every person that reached us wanted to kill us."

At Barzilai Hospital in the southern Israeli city of Ashkelon, reporters were barred from accessing the wounded. "We have received instruction from the army not to allow journalists to speak to the injured. Every patient has a soldier next to his bed," said a spokeswoman for the hospital, Leah Malul.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by symontk »

Many posters are putting escapist arguments like Israel wasnt violating the laws of sea, shot only after the occupants shot. But think about the scenario if some country does the same to Indian ships and aircrafts in International waters.

In fact these type of escapist arguments were used by US to shoot down Iranian Air in 80's (fun fact is that aircraft was flying in Iranian territory). Actually if US and other countries allows Israel to get away with it, the whole world business would be impacted due to unilateral actions like this

Imagine a situation in which any country can attack an aircraft or a ship in international waters just like that. and we have lot of them due west

NB: I would have defended Isreal if this incident happened in their waters
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

More news of the "unlucky for some",Israeli crack SBS style commando team.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 142188.ece

EXcerpt:
Israel’s elite naval Shayetet 13 criticised over botched operationSheera Frankel, Jerusalem 4 Comments
Recommend? Israel’s elite naval unit faced intense criticism yesterday after the botched operation against a pro-Palestinian flotilla on Monday.

Shayetet 13, the Israeli equivalent of Britain’s Special Boat Service, is one of the most decorated units in the Israeli military. The group was responsible for a number of high-profile operations, including the seizure of a cargo ship last year, that the Israelis said was carrying Iranian-financed weapons to the Gaza Strip.

But Israeli military experts have questioned whether it was wise to send a unit trained in covert operations behind enemy lines into a scenario with so many civilians present.

While publicly the Israeli political and military establishment has heaped praise on the unit, privately an internal investigation has already begun.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by shravan »

Philip wrote: Nilufer Cetin, a Turkish woman who had been on the Mavi Marmara, which bore the brunt of the Israeli raid, said that the ship had "turned into a lake of blood" and she and her one-year-old child had to hide in a bathroom.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6sAEYpHF24

Mavi Marmara Passengers Attack IDF Before Soldiers Board Ship

idfnadesk — June 02, 2010 — In footage taken from the Mavi Marmara activists are seen attacking the soldiers with a stun grenade, a box of plates, and water hoses as the soldiers attempt to board the ship. the activists are also waiving around metal rods and chains later used to attack the soldiers with. The IDF soldiers were armed with paint ball guns (used for riot dispersal) and pistols which they were ordered to use only as a last resort.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Suppiah »

Guys let us all go home and talk about something else - Turkey is already rowing backwards....it is saying 'special friendship WILL be at risk', not already dead, that too if Israel does not RETURN the seized protesters (as if Israel wants to give them citizenship and keep them there)...one can expect business as usual in a few days....both Erdogan and Davutoglu are singing slightly milder tune now....
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by svinayak »

symontk wrote:
In fact these type of escapist arguments were used by US to shoot down Iranian Air in 80's (fun fact is that aircraft was flying in Iranian territory). Actually if US and other countries allows Israel to get away with it, the whole world business would be impacted due to unilateral actions like this
Actually if US and other countries allows Pakistan to get away with LeT killing Indians, the whole world business would be impacted due to unilateral actions like this
Does India do anything to take care of this situation.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by pgbhat »

Sanku wrote:Incorrect it did no such thing. I merely despaired at the violence.
:mrgreen:
Actually yes, I agree, which ever side we are on we can claim "victory!!". :rotfl:
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Surya »

arun

you can continue to play around with words with respect to LOC etc but be assured there will be enough characters inclduing our own arundhotis who might try this stunt and will see this different.

you cannot pick and choose what you will support.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Sanjay M »

Is Turkey turning its back on the West, and going its own way?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03006.html

I hope so, because Islamism is a slippery slope - an irreversible path. Once the back of Ataturkism is broken by the Islamist brigade, then they will never allow it to re-establish itself again over there. This would put Turkey into play again, and resurrect it as a challenger to Europe. The Atlanticists will suddenly find themselves caught off balance and over-extended, as the oldest regional animosities come to the fore again. The Atlanticist lobby will find their credibility and influence in tatters, and both America and Western Europe will break free of their hold.

Hopefully, this would give us enough latitude to finish off Pakistan.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Carl_T »

It might be worth looking for Davutoglu's books in English translation that would give us some insight.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by abhischekcc »

>>Once the back of Ataturkism is broken by the Islamist brigade, then they will never allow it to re-establish itself again over there. This would put Turkey into play again

Europe will regret not including Turkey into EU when they had the chance.


>>Hopefully, this would give us enough latitude to finish off Pakistan.
Doubtful that changes in Euro-Levant region would impact the strategic scenario of the Indian subcontinent.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by abhischekcc »

What I find truly interesting about the recent moves Turkey is making to establish itself as an independant power worth trusting in ME - is that it challenges both Iran and KSA. KSA had enough troubles handling the rise of Iran in the Islamic world, now they have to deal with a resurgent Islamic Turkey as well.

Another point in favour of Turkey is that it was the last Islamic Caliphate, not less than a century ago, and can reclaim the street cred among muslim masses that its history of fighting both western Europe and the Russian empire gave to the pre-Ataturk Turkey.

By contrast, KSA royals have always been seen as waterboys for the west.

-----------

The recent incident in Israeli waters has given Turkey more credibility thant he wishy washy attempts of Saudi royals. Now, expect them to put increasing pressure on the US to produce results.

The 'normally' interesting ME scene has become even more interesting now.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by abhischekcc »

India does not really have any leverage or any direct interest in the developing scenario. What happens there will not impact the terror mongering by Pakistan. But the changing dynamics of the Islamic world will impact Pakistan, and therefore indirectly, India.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by sum »

X-post:
sum wrote:India got Samad from UAE after four IM men escaped net
India was able to get back Abdul Samad, the brother of alleged Pune blast accused Yasin Bhatkal, from Dubai after New Delhi conveyed to the UAE its serious concern over four key Indian Mujahideen (IM) operatives being allowed to escape from Sharjah two months ago.

Top government sources told The Indian Express that at a security coordination meeting two months ago, New Delhi had asked UAE for help in nabbing four IM operatives suspected to be involved in the Pune attack, who were then in Sharjah. Their addresses were handed over; however, the four men escaped. India was later told that the men could not be found at the given addresses. Indian agencies believe the IM men escaped to Pakistan.

UAE cooperated with Indian agencies to mount round-the-clock surveillance on Samad for nearly a month, and ultimately virtually forced him to board Air India’s Dubai-Mangalore flight on May 24, a day before his three-month Dubai visa was to expire.


Indian intelligence operatives escorted him to Mangalore, and he was taken away by Maharashtra ATS officers who were waiting on the tarmac. :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Lalmohan »

seeing the increasing relevance of Turkey, in the Turkey-Iran-Hejaz' traditional axis of power in the ME, it is once again apparent to me that pakistan remains peripheral and irrelevant to the core islamic world. perhaps the pakistani bum is meant to impress and threaten the ummah more than it for us SDRE banias... perhaps the 100+warheads are meant to point west as well as east?
pakistan-na-khappay once again
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Sanku »

Another perspective to the tamasha, domestic politics...

http://www.dailypioneer.com/259859/Isra ... usade.html

Israel takes on bogus crusade

Kanchan Gupta

A recent poll suggests a dramatic shift in Turkish public opinion with the Left-secular Republican People’s Party, or CHP, surging ahead of the Islamist AKP. The CHP is now seen to be commanding 33 per cent of the vote, compared to 31 per cent for the AKP. The Right-wing Turkish nationalist MHP stands third with 19 per cent of the vote. The next election is scheduled for 2011, but the AKP, according to reports, has been toying with the idea of calling an early poll rather than risk a worsening economic situation. In such a scenario, what better way for the AKP to shore up its electoral fortunes than by painting Jews as villains guilty of “bloody massacre” of Turks and by extension Muslims? Other Islamist regimes have played this game successfully, so why not the AKP regime?
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Suppiah »

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... ns_opinion

For a crystal clear understanding of where Erdogan & Co are leading Turkey to and what sort of propaganda fare they dish out to the street Abduls in Turkey...makes Ahmed-nutjob look like a mature rational thinker in comparison...
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by shyamd »

Lots of propaganda, disinfo campaign on the recent incident. Speed of israeli media response to an incident, should be noted.

Turkish israeli relations were in a freeze well before this incident.
---------------

Samad extradition is Dubai probably trying to show their colours have changed and that they are serious. Although this maybe a bad first case, if he turns out innocent. We shall see.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Sanjay M »

Turkey is Israel's Sub-Prime Investment. The Israelis have invested a lot of time, money, effort and planning in cultivating Turkey for their longterm strategic future. But the fact is that this was always a false vision, which could never provide ultimate return on investment.

Turkey is destined to go back to the Caliphate, and will once again help to lead the Islamic world.

No matter - the better for all of us infidels to unite with clarity.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Anujan »

Turks should not forget that Unkil has Kurds in Iraq. Those Kurds are growing powerful and can be used as a beating stick.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Carl_T »

Ohhh they know, they're going to be improving relations with Iraqi Kurdistan. The visit of the Kurdish president is a step I believe.
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Surya »

Turkey is destined to go back to the Caliphate, and will once again help to lead the Islamic world.
not gonna happen anytime soon

lot of history there
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Sanjay M »

The Kurdish separatist leader, Abdullah Ocalan, whom Israel helped Turkey to capture way back, has still not abandoned his fight, and is pursuing it even from behind bars in his Turkish prison. By helping to give Turkey everything it wanted, how did Israel retain any cards to keep Turkey in its good graces?
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by abhishek_sharma »

What exactly is the blockade of Gaza?

http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/ ... de_of_gaza
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Israel Seeks ‘New Ways’ to Supply Gaza, Official Says

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/04/world ... tilla.html
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Thousands in Turkey Mourn Victims of Israeli Raid

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/04/world ... urkey.html
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by mnag »

Nice article from wallstreet journal. Reveals some details about the "peace activists"

Turkey's Radical Drift: The Islamic charity behind the Gaza flotilla and its links to terror
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... oveLEFTTop

So the Prime Minister of Turkey calls Israel "a festering boil in the Middle East that spreads hate and enmity," while his foreign minister compares Monday's Israeli naval raid on a flotilla of ships headed for the Gaza Strip, in which nine passengers were killed, to the attacks of September 11, 2001. For good measure, the Turks have also wagged their finger at the Obama Administration for not immediately denouncing Israel's actions.

Yet the more facts that come to light about the flotilla, its passengers and their sponsors, the more it seems clear that Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Ergodan's government, far more so than Israel's, must be held to account for Monday's violent episode. Maybe that's something the U.N. Human Rights Council, which on Wednesday condemned Israel for an "outrageous attack" and voted 32-3 to set up a "fact-finding mission" (with the U.S. in opposition), might get around to investigating, though we wouldn't hold our breath.

***
The Turkish accounting should begin with a full explanation from the government of its relationship with the IHH, an Istanbul-based Islamic "charity" that purchased three of the six boats used in the flotilla from the city government, sent hundreds of its activists along with it, and reportedly has ties to Turkey's ruling Islamist AKP Party.

The IHH—the Turkish acronym for the "Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief"—has widely reported links to Hamas, the terrorist group that runs Gaza and most directly threatens Israel. Moreover, in the 2001 Seattle trial of Ahmed Ressam, the would-be Millennium bomber, French counterterrorism magistrate Jean-Louis Bruguiere testified that the IHH had played an "important role" in Ressam's plot to bomb LAX airport on New Year's Day, 2000, and that there was "a rather close relation" between the bomber and the Turkish group.

"The IHH is an NGO," said Judge Bruguiere, "but it was also a type of cover-up . . . in order to obtain forged documents and to obtain different forms of infiltration for Mujahideen in combat." In an interview this week with the Associated Press, the judge said he did not know whether IHH was still in the terror business, but he added that "they were basically helping al Qaeda when [Osama] bin Laden started to want to target U.S. soil."

In a 2006 study for the Danish Institute for International Studies, terrorism analyst Evan Kohlmann noted that Turkey had known of the IHH links to terrorism for at least a decade.

"Turkish authorities began their own domestic criminal investigation of IHH as early as December 1997, when sources revealed that leaders of IHH were purchasing automatic weapons from other regional Islamic militant groups. IHH's bureau in Istanbul was thoroughly searched, and its local officers were arrested. Security forces uncovered an array of disturbing items, including firearms, explosives, bomb-making instructions, and a 'jihad flag.' After analyzing seized IHH documents, Turkish authorities concluded that 'detained members of IHH were going to fight in Afghanistan, Bosnia and Chechnya.' . . .

"An examination of IHH's phone records in Istanbul showed repeated telephone calls in 1996 to an Al-Qaeda guesthouse in Milan and various Algerian terrorist operatives active elsewhere in Europe—including the notorious Abu el-Ma'ali, who has been subsequently termed by U.S. officials as a 'junior Osama Bin Laden,'" the Danish study said.

No wonder that Israel was not prepared to let this flotilla break its blockade of Gaza. As Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Wednesday, "this was no Love Boat," and Israel is entirely within its rights to prevent Hamas from linking with groups suspected of supplying arms and money to terrorists. Israel had also gone out of its way to give Turkey fair warning, with Al Jazeera reporting that the Israeli government "held a meeting with ambassadors of the European countries participating in the convoy and Turkey to tell them it would not allow the Freedom Flotilla ships to dock at Gaza."

Yet knowing all this, the Turkish government made no effort to prevent the flotilla from setting sail. The government also seems unembarrassed that the IHH belongs to a Saudi-based umbrella group of Islamic charities known as "The Union of the Good," which the U.S. Treasury designated a terrorist organization in November 2008. On the contrary, Mr. Erdogan has been outspoken in his calls for the world to recognize Hamas, even as his relations with the more moderate Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas have been notably cool.

That attitude conforms with the general pattern of Mr. Erdogan's foreign policy. For all his denunciations of Israel's alleged brutality in Monday's raid, he was among the first foreign leaders to congratulate Mahmoud Ahmadinejad for his "victory" in last year's presidential election. He's also had no trouble getting close to Syria's Bashar al-Assad, despite the U.N.'s investigation into Syria's role in the 2005 assassination of Lebanese premier Rafik Hariri.

So much, then, for the notion that Jerusalem has needlessly junked its friendship with Ankara for the sake of stopping a mere ship of fools. That "friendship" had already been degraded by a Turkish government that appears to have an ingrained hostility toward the Jewish state, remarkable sympathies for nearby radical regimes, and an attitude toward extremist groups like the IHH that borders on complicity.

***
All of this should concern the Obama Administration no less than it does the leadership in Jerusalem. The President has invested considerable efforts in courting Mr. Erdogan, his government and Turkish public opinion. The reward has been a Turkey that conducts a diplomacy of obstruction when it comes to Iran, along with a diplomacy of provocation when it comes to Israel.

Whatever this might achieve for Mr. Erdogan politically in the short run, in the long-run it means a Turkey admired only by neighboring despots, one that no responsible country can trust.
abhishek_sharma
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Says One Israeli General: 'Everybody Thinks We're Bananas'

http://www.theatlantic.com/internationa ... nas/57514/
abhishek_sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9664
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Why Israel's narrative of the flotilla attack is failing so badly

http://www.ibishblog.com/blog/hibish/20 ... g_so_badly
Sanjay M
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by Sanjay M »

Heh, listen to the tall tales on this one:




Time for the Jews to get with the Armenians and the Kurds, and give Turkey the heave-ho.
shyamd
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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Post by shyamd »

Okay, since the Israeli side has been heavily posted. Lets see what the activists themselves have to say. Here's one from an Omani Journalist for Gulf News on board the ship. By the way, if anyone doesn't like something that is said, you can contact the journalist directly via twitter and ask them any questions you have - Don't know if IDF will do that.

From tear gas to bullets: Gunshots shattered call to prayer
Everyone was crouching … I could hear louder bangs, see bright lights and hear helicopters, Gulf News reporter Abbas Al Latawi recounts flotilla attack horror
By Abbas Al Latawi, Staff reporter Published: 00:00 June 4, 2010

"Going to get some sleep. Action continues in a couple of hours. Hope we still have internet access."
That was one of my last few posts on Twitter before the partially successful Israeli media blackout on the Mavi Marmara, the biggest passenger ship on the Freedom Flotilla to Gaza which came under an Israeli attack that killed nine people.
The events since then have been a different experience for every person on the ship. As all reporters have been compiling their eyewitness accounts, here is my account of what happened.
After sending my last blog entry and twitter post, I changed into jeans and decided to take about two hours of sleep before the action started. I woke up at around 4.30am with the simultaneous sounds of bangs and the call to prayers, the azzan. Opening my eyes, I asked an Egyptian man beside me: "Are they attacking?" "Yes!" he said.
I rushed up to the press room, where everyone was crouching. I prepared my camera and went out to the deck, where I could hear louder bangs, see bright lights and hear helicopters. Small Israeli speedboats were just meters away from me, flashing their lights at everyone in view. I kept trying to get out of the light, afraid of being exposed enough to be targeted. I lifted my camera as I filmed the boat so they would know that I was a journalist, but then decided that filming them was perhaps as likely to get me shot.
Struggling to keep my shirt from flying off because of the wind that was being whipped up by the helicopter propellers, I was reminded that I did not have my life jacket on, having taken it off to go to sleep. When smoke started appearing, an activist handed me a handful of cut onions to smell, saying it would help in resisting the tear gas. I had no idea about the trick but continued sniffing on onion from one hand as I held my camera in the other.
I saw some impressively effective resistance. Men tasked with guarding the boat had resorted to using hosepipes to push trained Israeli commandos that were trying to climb the ship. Some were thrown into the sea by the pressure of the pipes. The pipes also briefly pushed away Israeli navy speedboats that had been firing tear gas canitsers and smoke bombs.
Other guards used any kind of makeshift weapon to defend themselves and their ship. Some used iron rods that once made the railing on the ships while others used sling shots and chairs.
Those activists who had gas masks on were tasked with picking up smoke bombs and tear gas canisters and throwing them off board or back at the Israeli speedboats. That method, too, prolonged the battle and led to the commandos' use of more serious weapons.
I then decided that I was standing too close to the speedboats for my own safety, and decided to assess the situation inside. That is where I learned that two Israeli soldiers had been disarmed and held captive.
I felt a sense of euphoria upon realising how big a news story this would be, but then had a sense of reality and realised that events on the boat had taken a horrible turn.
Angry activists
As I saw angry activists drag one of the Israeli soldiers down the stairs and punch him, I lost my journalistic objectivity and found myself urging the activist to stop hitting the soldier. Seeing the anger in the activist's eyes, I thought that he would kill him. I had images of the wars that Israel has waged over its captive soldiers, and the number of people that have died as a result of them. My thought was that if an Israeli soldier was to die on that ship, the entire flotilla would be bombed until it sank.
That was, of course, before I saw the bloodshed. The activists' anger was suddenly put in context when I saw a number of people carrying a dying man down the stairs. His face was unrecognisable, covered in blood. He was apparently one of the first to go down, after an Israeli gun targeted the centre of his forehead from a helicopter, spilling his brains into the hands of another activist who was trying to look after him.

Upon seeing his body I felt nauseous and had to take a step back and walk into the press room nearby. The Palestinian member of Israel's Knesset, Haneen Zoubi, walked into the press room, where everyone was ducking to avoid the windows as Israeli guns kept firing. Haneen had been on the deck outside where the battles were ongoing.
"What's going on outside?" I asked?
"What's going on? War is going on," she said.
I took a few deep breathes and went back to get some footage on my tiny HD camera. Still indoors, I remained by the staircase where, by now, the organisers of the flotilla had pushed aside activists and forbade them to hurt the soldiers. I took a few steps down to film the other captive soldier, struggling to keep my balance with so much blood under my feet. He stood in a corner being attended by two medics onboard, in shock, crying. (Oh God! These Israeli soldiers who were attacked were being tended to by medics. - Bad PR once again. Can't release that footage)
It was surreal. I knew that that soldier could destroy the entire flotilla, and thought I would get some close up footage of him. I took my camera as close as possible to his face and asked his name twice. He was too traumatised to answer. I could see fear of death in his eyes. He was petrified. Then I heard women screaming. "They are coming!"
The Israelis had taken control of the upper deck and were moving to the lower floors. Their target was the press room, where most of us had been causing the bad PR that Israel had been getting. I was right next to the press room and had to rush down to one floor below as the commanders started coming down.
I left my backpack in the press room with my passport, two of my three phones, my laptop, my still camera, watch, car and home keys, wallet, press accreditation, and a lot of cash. As the Israelis took over the press room, I had a feeling I was never going to get any of that back.
Blood from the injured ran in the stairwell of ship
Vessel was 74 nautical miles from Gaza when attacked
By Abbas Al Lawat, Staff ReporterPublished: 00:00 June 3, 2010
Israeli Navy troops storming the Mavi Marmara. The aid workers managed to keep Israeli soldiers off the ship for at least half an hour - using hosepipes and sticks to beat off a trained army. Image Credit: AFP
It was just before dawn prayers when smoke bombs were hurled onto the Mavi Marmara, the lead ship in the Freedom Flotilla carrying 700 humanitarian aid workers, journalists and diplomats.
Israeli forces first attacked the ship 74 nautical miles from Gaza — this is six miles from the extended Israeli zone.
The Mavi Marmara had defence teams in place, which donned gas masks and white gloves and promptly threw the smoke bombs off the deck into the sea.
The ship had altered its course slightly, in an attempt to buy more time, trying to ensure that any attack would be in daylight, when all were awake.
In the first of three attacks, the Israeli forces used paint pellet guns with paintballs mixed with glass.
They were repelled by the defence teams on deck, who used hosepipes to blast soldiers from the sides of the ship, after they tried to board from speedboats. Makeshift weapons were fashioned from items laying on the deck — as there were absolutely no weapons on board at all when the army attacked.
Rubber bullets
Chaos reined, with aid workers, defence teams and journalists running around on the deck in life jackets, trying to find out what was happening.
Helicopters overhead dipped, producing strong winds, which whipped up the sea.
In the second attack on the ship carrying aid to Gaza, the army used rubber bullets, which began to injure those on board.
A soldier landed on the deck and was overpowered by the teams, who threw his gun into the sea. He and another soldier were taken below deck, slightly injured in the scuffle. One sat in a corner, shivering, crying, refusing to speak when asked his name.
The organisers of the flotilla, the IHH, made an announcement, asking the teams to back off — once people saw blood flowing they became more aggressive. Blood from the injured ran in the stairwell, causing people to slip.
It was in the third attack that injuries turned to deaths. Four were killed in this third attempt to overpower the ship, with some bleeding to death from their injuries. Each round of attack was increasingly severe.
After live rounds started being fired, the ship gave in to surrender. Another announcement was made — in both English and Hebrew, that the ship had surrendered, it would no longer resist and that the Israelis had control. It also appealed for medical help for the injured.
An Israeli soldier held a one-year-old boy in one arm, gun in the other, and ordered the captain to take the ship to Ashdod. Organisers tried to make a deal with the army — their unharmed soldiers in return for the child, but the soldier simply repeated the same order.
Appeal
Four deaths turned into 16 by the time medical aid was provided — one and a half hours later. The hostages were lined up, sitting tightly on sofas and beds. Israeli soldiers kept their weapons trained on them, pointing them directly at their foreheads if they moved.
Haneen Zoubi, a member of the Knesset, wrote an appeal for medical aid on a piece of cardboard, and marched straight up to the Israeli soldiers, to no avail.
The aid workers managed to keep Israeli soldiers off the ship for at least half an hour — using hosepipes and sticks to beat off a trained army.
UN rights council: Probe gets go-ahead
The UN Human Rights Council yesterday adopted a resolution setting up an independent international probe into Israel's interception of Gaza-bound ships. The resolution, which also condemned Israel's "outrageous attack," was adopted after a vote, with 32 countries voting in favour, three against, and eight abstentions.
It "decides to dispatch an independent international fact-finding mission to investigate violations of international law, including international humanitarian aid and human rights law, resulting from the Israeli attacks on the flotilla of ships carrying humanitarian assistance."
The text also decides to "authorise the president of the council to appoint members of this independent international fact finding system."
— With inputs from AFP
Israel's flotilla attack came in three phases
There were absolutely no weapons aboard the Mavi Marmara as Israel claims, says Gulf News reporter Abbas Al Lawati who was witness to the carnage on aid ship to Gaza
By Abbas Al Lawati, Staff ReporterPublished: 15:00 June 2, 2010

Amman: A red laser dot appeared on his head, and seconds later he was shot dead. A member of the organisers rushed to his aid, only to have the man's brains spill out onto his hands.
This was the first death in the deadly attack on the Mavi Marmara — lead ship in the Freedom Flotilla carrying 700 aid workers, journalists and diplomats.
Israeli forces first attacked the ship 74 nautical miles from Gaza — six miles from the extended Israeli zone.
Israeli troops attacked the boat in three stages. The first attack came during dawn prayers when smoke bombs were thrown on deck. These were thrown overboard by the defence teams on board the ship.
Read special coverage of Freedom Flotilla
The Mavi Marmara tried to alter its course so that any further attack would occur during daylight, but the Israelis persisted and boarded the ship. They used paintball guns on passengers — the ammunition mixed with glass.
Israeli troops tried to board the ship from speedboats and the defence teams used hose pipes to prevent soldiers from boarding the vessel.
Makeshift weapons were fashioned from items lying on the deck, but there were absolutely no weapons on board the ship, as Israel claims. As chaos and panic swept the boat the Israelis began stage two, using rubber bullets. Once blood started flowing, anger mounted against the Israelis.
Gulf News statement on the Israeli attack
In the third attack, the injuries turned to deaths. Four people were killed instantly while 12 others bled to death. Finally, the captain surrendered and agreed to take the Mavi Marmara to the Israeli port city of Ashdod after an Israeli soldier pointed a gun at a one-year-old Turkish child.
— Abbas Al Lawati has been freed. He left Amman, Jordan, for Muscat, Oman, and was scheduled to arrive late last night.
Couple of points from press articles since the incident.
Point Number 1 - Weapons could have been attempted to brought in.
Reply: Really, would Hamas, Iran or now Turkey really use a public event to bring in weapons, especially with so many VIPs on board (MEPs. Knesset members, Press and others etc) I am sure they would love to be associated with terrorists. Weapons would have been stopped by Turkish Customs anyway.

Point Number 2- Initial news reports said a cache of pistols were found. Now proven untrue.

Point number 3 - There were millions of dollars on board. If this was true, the Israeli's would have been the first to show it.

Point 4 - These activists were there to cause trouble - No they were there to symbolically and peacefully breach the illegal blockade (which anyhow affects only the common person). UN themselves say Israel allows only a fraction of aid that should be coming in - just shows the mean intent of Israel. So what does your average Gaza suicide terrorist use for equipment - well rockets are made from home made stuff - bits of steel etc. The bombs themselves are made from household stuff like soap. So whats the point of this blockade? And, believe it or not the top guys from the state department have already met with certain Hamas bigwigs, its only a matter of time before they are accepted as a legitimate democratically elected government of Gaza.

Also, I wonder why IDF confiscated press laptops, camera's and cell phones. Perhaps, if these are released, we can see what the others saw from inside the ship and what went on from the other PoV

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Sanjay M, the attempted coup by secularist Turkish Army guys really screwed israel over. That was the end of pro-israeli's in the turkish army. Israeli backing was suspected in that apparently.

Just some food for thought.
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