Indian Space Program Discussion

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shukla
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by shukla »

Weaponisation of Space-Should India Join the Race?
India is also now a major space power with substantial civilian and military stakes in space and must decide whether it wishes to support and join the current race to weaponise space or oppose it.
the Indian government must make its own calculations about whether or not the weaponisation of space is inevitable. If it concludes that the West and China are going down that route, it must lose no further time in sanctioning a tri-Service aerospace command and giving it a wide-ranging charter to develop and field Indian weapons in space. This is one field in which no friendly nation or strategic partner will transfer technology to another.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by dinesha »

Mr S Ramakrishnan, Distinguished Scientist of Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) and hitherto Director (Projects), Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre (VSSC), Thiruvananthapuram, has assumed the office of Director, Liquid Propulsion Systems Centre, Thiruvananthapuram.
http://netindian.in/news/2010/06/02/000 ... ems-centre
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Matthew_H »

Space Weapons Should Be Part of Upcoming US-India Strategic Dialogue

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and her Indian counterpart S.M. Krishna will meet in Washington this week (June 2 and 3) to lay the groundwork for a visit to India that President Obama plans to make in November. This meeting comes on the heels of recent announcements by India’s military that it plans to test and deploy an anti-satellite system.

Indian military officials have set a target date to deploy an ambitious anti-satellite system, according to a report released in May by the Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO). The report, titled Technology Perspective and Capability Roadmap (TPCR), states that the “development of ASAT for electronic or physical destruction of satellites in both LEO and Geo – synchronous orbits” can be expected by 2015 .

This is not exactly news, in that the developmental timeline coincides with DRDO comments from years past. What is striking about it—much like most information released from the DRDO regarding its development of anti-satellite systems—is that it blatantly contradicts statements by Indian political leaders that deny any intent by their nation to pursue space weapons. Moreover, target dates for the development of anti-satellite systems by any nation should be considered shocking, particularly given the scrutiny that was paid to nations such as China and the U.S. when they each demonstrated a direct-ascent ability to strike satellites in space .

Historically, U.S. concern over China’s potential to deploy a formal ASAT system has been well documented. In 1999 The Cox Report on US National Security with China stated: “The PRC is believed to be developing space-based and ground-based anti-satellite laser weapons .” In a 2008 Congressional hearing before the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission, it was stated that a Chinese ASAT threat definitely exists, putting many U.S. and allied spacecraft at risk . In January of 2007, many nations, including India, voiced opposition to China’s successful shoot-down of its own aging Fengyun (FY-1C ) polar orbit satellite with a kinetic kill vehicle (KKV). In response to China’s action, then-Indian External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee said, “The security and safety of assets in outer space is of crucial importance for global economic and social development. We call upon all States to redouble efforts to strengthen the international legal regime for the peaceful use of outer space. ” Then-U.S. National Security Council spokesman Gordon Johndroe echoed Mukherjee’s comments, stating, “The U.S. believes China’s development and testing of such weapons is inconsistent with the spirit of cooperation that both countries aspire to in the civil space area .”

The U.S. experienced similar international suspicion and condemnation a year later when it destroyed a reportedly malfunctioning National Reconnaissance Organization (NRO) satellite via a Standard Missile 3 (SM3) launch from aboard the USS Lake Erie. Russia's Defense Ministry responded in a statement: “There is an impression that the United States is trying to use the accident with its satellite to test its national anti-missile defense system's capability to destroy other countries' satellites .”

With all of the attention paid to China’s and the United States’ anti-satellite capabilities, how has the international community missed continuous, overt claims by Indian military officials that the development and eventual deployment of an ASAT system is on the horizon? If the U.S. and China are subject to international outrage over what the two countries claim were responses to their own malfunctioning satellites, why is India overlooked when it touts that it is developing the same technology for defensive and offensive military applications? Is its technical prowess being underestimated? Does the Indian nation’s defiant actions pale in comparison to those of China, Iran and North Korea?

In the spring of 2000, an alarming report entitled “Military Dimensions in the Future of the Indian Presence in Space” caused waves within official circles but drew little international attention (probably due to its lack of availability outside of India). Perhaps most controversial was its suggestion that India could deploy a directed-energy weapon, such as a particle beam weapon, in space by 2010 and also a system referred to as the KALI (kinetic attack loitering interceptor). The paper’s author, Dr. V. Siddhartha, was at the time of the document’s publication an officer on special duty in the secretariat of the scientific adviser to the Defense Minister. The paper is testament to, at the very least, a clear interest within the Indian military of deploying not only a space-based laser, but also an ASAT system .

Over the past decade, there has been no shortage of inflammatory comments made by Indian military officials claiming India’s intent to weaponize space. There has also been no shortage of contradictions to these statements from India’s most senior government officials—oftentimes happening within days of one another. For example, on January 26, 2007, after China’s satellite shoot-down, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and then-Russian President Vladimir Putin convened a joint press conference where Singh declared; “Our position is similar in that we are not in favor of the weaponization of outer space .” This was just one day after then-Indian Air Force (IAF) chief Shashi Tyagi stated, “As the reach of our air force is expanding, it has become extremely important that we exploit space, and for it you need space assets .” Actions speak louder than words, and unfortunately the Indian military is acting. How long is the international community going to wait for India’s bold claims to materialize?

On January 3rd of 2010 at the 97th Indian Science Congress, Dr. V K Saraswat, director general of India's Defense Research and Development Organization, stated in a televised press conference that India was in the process of developing an ASAT system and that it is “working to ensure space security and protect our satellites.” He went on: “At the same time, we are also working on how to deny the enemy access to its space assets…India is putting together building blocks of technology that could be used to neutralize enemy satellites.” These building blocks, he stated, will be ready between 2012 and 2014. He added, "With the kill vehicle available and with the propulsion system of Agni-III, that can carry the missile up to 1,000 km altitude, we can reach the orbit in which the satellite is and it is well within our capability .” Testing on an interceptor missile with a range of 120-140 km will begin, he says, in September. All of this evidence points to the fact that, despite claims to the contrary, India is and has been unwavering in its desire to develop a space weapons system that could significantly destabilize the international security environment .

It has been 36 years since India broke trust with the international community with its first nuclear test. In 1998 U.S. sanctions were placed upon the country in response to more nuclear tests. When the Bush Administration lifted the aforementioned sanctions against India in the wake of the terror attacks on September 11, 2001, and then progressively loosened export and commerce laws against India, it ignored many events that have taken place historically. To date, India has not signed on to the Proliferation Security Initiative (PSI), the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT) or the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR). It is also highly unlikely that India will subscribe to the treaty to Prevent an Arms Race in Outer Space (PAROS.)

At a time when the international spotlight seems trained on North Korea and Iran, a growing tolerance for India's belligerence in building its nuclear and missile capabilities appears to shield it from similar scrutiny. Geographically, it is also comparable in its potential for volatility; South Asia is a highly volatile region—home to two nuclear weapons states, including India, that fought in multiple wars, the last taking place in 1999. In fact, since the Kargil War, India-Pakistan relations have not moved towards peace and remain highly unstable.

India has stated that it intends to deploy a space weapon by 2015, and a 5,000 km ICBM by 2011 . The Indian nation is currently acquiring missile defense technologies while simultaneously increasing its role as a leading importer and exporter of military technologies that will irreversibly alter the security balance not only in South Asia, but in the Middle East as well.

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and her Indian counterpart S.M. Krishna will meet in Washington this week to lay the groundwork for a visit to India that President Obama plans to make in November . Isn’t it time, at the very least, for the Obama Administration to reassess the US-India policies set by its predecessor?

The Military Space Transparency Project
www.spacetransparency.org
Matthew_H
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Matthew_H »

I think that some of you may find this article to be interesting:
India’s quest for dual-use technology
The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists
http://bit.ly/awovwU
ramana
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by ramana »

Most of that is Non-Proliferation Ayotallahs rambling. They transfer their fears of PRC on to India and write such nightmares without an iota of reality. I dont think BRF should be used to propogate anti-India ramblings especially by propagandus..
tejas
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by tejas »

I presume the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists article was by a political "scientist". The article reeks of buzzwords with no substance of any sort. There is not a single example of "dual use" tech. India acquired from the US though the author uses the term in nearly every paragraph of his poorly written paper.

Bags of hot air like this imbecile make me wish India would start exporting missiles to countries to show arrogant buffoons within the NPA community what it thinks of the MTCR (as was suggested a long time ago by APJ Kalam) and other 4 letter treaties dreamed up by Uncle. India coukld then stop such exports as soon as Uncle stops exporting SLBMs to the UQ.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by ravar »

ramana wrote:Most of that is Non-Proliferation Ayotallahs rambling. They transfer their fears of PRC on to India and write such nightmares without an iota of reality. I dont think BRF should be used to propogate anti-India ramblings especially by propagandus..
I second and third that, Ramana garu!

Hope the ayotallahs get the message, including the nuances of Hinglish :mrgreen:

It is surprising (or is it not!) that the site has devoted a 'Project India' and select rambling about all things Indian whereas there is no 'Project China' nor 'Project USA', more so since the last two have made concrete steps towards (and are more advanced) in the "weaponisation of space" when compared to India.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by ramana »

The NPAs have a pet whipping boy in India. They get to flagellate with every transgression that PRC or other real challengers actually commit and transfer it on to India. They then procees to make India an example for others to see. Like in school they used to beat up the weakling to show what they cloud do to the real bully so bully learn by example. The real wonder is why India allows it.

The real irony is when Indian DIE take up Phd studies in Stratergy they also whip India to show how good a student they have become.

Turds like my namesake!
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Lisa »

sanjaykumar wrote:It is the escape mechansm from catastrophic launch failures.
At 1:20 you can see it in operation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZbwI94x ... re=related
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by sanjaykumar »

Bah! When India publicly tests something novel like a directed energy weapon, laser weapon or hypersonic propulsion, it will change the terms of discourse for the BOAS and other monopolists/oligarchists. Of course they are only doing the predictable.

I should state that I believe India possess deployable technologies in all three of the above. That is why Krishna and Clinton are meeting this week, not because Pakistani jihadi is carrying on the work of the ummah or China needs another reminder of India's utility to the US.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by shukla »

ravar
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by ravar »

Lisa wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:It is the escape mechansm from catastrophic launch failures.
At 1:20 you can see it in operation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZbwI94x ... re=related
More lucid graphics from Ares 1-

Ares1-X Launch Abort System Adapter Cone
brihaspati
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by brihaspati »

Matthew_H wrote

This is not exactly news, in that the developmental timeline coincides with DRDO comments from years past. What is striking about it—much like most information released from the DRDO regarding its development of anti-satellite systems—is that it blatantly contradicts statements by Indian political leaders that deny any intent by their nation to pursue space weapons. Moreover, target dates for the development of anti-satellite systems by any nation should be considered shocking, particularly given the scrutiny that was paid to nations such as China and the U.S. when they each demonstrated a direct-ascent ability to strike satellites in space.

With all of the attention paid to China’s and the United States’ anti-satellite capabilities, how has the international community missed continuous, overt claims by Indian military officials that the development and eventual deployment of an ASAT system is on the horizon? If the U.S. and China are subject to international outrage over what the two countries claim were responses to their own malfunctioning satellites, why is India overlooked when it touts that it is developing the same technology for defensive and offensive military applications? Is its technical prowess being underestimated? Does the Indian nation’s defiant actions pale in comparison to those of China, Iran and North Korea?
What is it that galls you - the fact that aggressively militarist countries where military-industrial complex significantly drives political policy - like the USA and its close frienemy China were under scrutiny? why is it galling if other nations do not join in the same club of getting criticized? Does it strike a bell somewhere in this very political mindset that the reason for lack of scrutiny could be that such "threats" from India are simply not credible for most countries ? Is it possible that most countries are not really devoid of intelligence and can draw simple reasonable conclusions about who really mean aggression - like USA which sends off expeditionary armies all over the world, or China which has actually sent in armies and hold Indian territories illegally?

In the spring of 2000, an alarming report entitled “Military Dimensions in the Future of the Indian Presence in Space” caused waves within official circles but drew little international attention (probably due to its lack of availability outside of India). Perhaps most controversial was its suggestion that India could deploy a directed-energy weapon, such as a particle beam weapon, in space by 2010 and also a system referred to as the KALI (kinetic attack loitering interceptor). The paper’s author, Dr. V. Siddhartha, was at the time of the document’s publication an officer on special duty in the secretariat of the scientific adviser to the Defense Minister. The paper is testament to, at the very least, a clear interest within the Indian military of deploying not only a space-based laser, but also an ASAT system .
Are you worried that possible military plans of sections of imperialist military-political jingoes within both the USA and PRC about trimming India to "manageable" size through Pakistani and direct Chinese aggression could be jeopardized if India attains the capability to destroy the military satellites of both countries?
Over the past decade, there has been no shortage of inflammatory comments made by Indian military officials claiming India’s intent to weaponize space. There has also been no shortage of contradictions to these statements from India’s most senior government officials—oftentimes happening within days of one another. For example, on January 26, 2007, after China’s satellite shoot-down, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and then-Russian President Vladimir Putin convened a joint press conference where Singh declared; “Our position is similar in that we are not in favor of the weaponization of outer space .” This was just one day after then-Indian Air Force (IAF) chief Shashi Tyagi stated, “As the reach of our air force is expanding, it has become extremely important that we exploit space, and for it you need space assets .”
Inflammatory to whom? Care to explain? Where does it speak of "weaponization" of outer space? It simply talks of "exploiting" space and acquiring "space assets", which in the context of air force simply may mean military satellite based guidance systems and non-reliance on dubious inputs from any nexus between the militaries of hostile nations.
Actions speak louder than words, and unfortunately the Indian military is acting. How long is the international community going to wait for India’s bold claims to materialize?
Naturally, actions do speak louder than words. So Chinese military action on Indian soil, both USA and China's active helping of Pakistani hostilities actually speak volumes than any pious words of condemnation of Pakistan based terror on India. The international community did rally to the demands of covert India-dismemberment mindset reflected in your expressions - in the runup to the 123 agreement. Didn't they? However, you could see that the real-politik - the actual action-world dominated in good sense over ideological hatred of India.
All of this evidence points to the fact that, despite claims to the contrary, India is and has been unwavering in its desire to develop a space weapons system that could significantly destabilize the international security environment.

It has been 36 years since India broke trust with the international community with its first nuclear test. In 1998 U.S. sanctions were placed upon the country in response to more nuclear tests. When the Bush Administration lifted the aforementioned sanctions against India in the wake of the terror attacks on September 11, 2001, and then progressively loosened export and commerce laws against India, it ignored many events that have taken place historically. To date, India has not signed on to the Proliferation Security Initiative (PSI), the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT) or the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR). It is also highly unlikely that India will subscribe to the treaty to Prevent an Arms Race in Outer Space (PAROS.)

At a time when the international spotlight seems trained on North Korea and Iran, a growing tolerance for India's belligerence in building its nuclear and missile capabilities appears to shield it from similar scrutiny. Geographically, it is also comparable in its potential for volatility; South Asia is a highly volatile region—home to two nuclear weapons states, including India, that fought in multiple wars, the last taking place in 1999. In fact, since the Kargil War, India-Pakistan relations have not moved towards peace and remain highly unstable.
Yes through smooth-talking Anglophile politicians India probably created the impression of a doormat on which high-flying racist and ideologically bigoted western opinion could polish its boots. But generations die out, and get replaced. Those who obtained power by posing as middle roaders and not avid West-haters are gradually being replaced by Indians free from imperialist education. I think authors like you are failing to grasp this crucial change. Most of the real world understands and feels this change and hence they do not jump on to the India-baiting bandwagon as much as you wish them to.

Destabilization of South Asia will be due to USA and China's alliance in some areas and contests in other areas. It will not be due to India in any way.
India has stated that it intends to deploy a space weapon by 2015, and a 5,000 km ICBM by 2011 . The Indian nation is currently acquiring missile defense technologies while simultaneously increasing its role as a leading importer and exporter of military technologies that will irreversibly alter the security balance not only in South Asia, but in the Middle East as well.

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and her Indian counterpart S.M. Krishna will meet in Washington this week to lay the groundwork for a visit to India that President Obama plans to make in November . Isn’t it time, at the very least, for the Obama Administration to reassess the US-India policies set by its predecessor?
This last statement is a clear indicator of a political activist mindset speaking. This has got nothing to do with national or international security or stability of Asia - isn't it? It is about another desperate bid to keep India militarily weaker compared to China or USA and those in these countries who dream of the fall of "pagan dark-skinned" India to proxies like Pakistan or directly to the PLA? Is India's seeking of defensive capabilities so much a problem in the plans to carve out South Asia between two powers?

Finally your weakest argument and which takes the least space in your post is "how" India' seeking of military capabilities in space destabilizes Asia. The whole point of your post - isn't it? Why is India getting better defended a reason for destabiolization? In whose book is "only good India is a dead India"?
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by sanjaykumar »

Huh? All this for a one-man operation run likely from his mother's basement?
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Sanjay M »

ISRO Makes Technical Leadership Changes After a Series of Launch Mishaps

http://www.satnews.com/cgi-bin/story.cg ... 1230822810

http://www.stockwatch.in/s-ramakrishnan ... ntre-26615

So here we go then - some fallout from the GSLV-D3 cryo engine failure.

Obviously the govt has been stung by the high-profile failure, and is moving to make some organizational changes as a result. Any opinions on whether this will make a difference?
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

Birth of a New Word

"Frienemy", simply brilliant.

Another nugget

"But generations die out, and get replaced."

Extraordinary , to say the least.

Made my day, actually.
Last edited by chaanakya on 09 Jun 2010 20:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by ravar »

Sanjay M wrote:ISRO Makes Technical Leadership Changes After a Series of Launch Mishaps

http://www.satnews.com/cgi-bin/story.cg ... 1230822810

http://www.stockwatch.in/s-ramakrishnan ... ntre-26615

So here we go then - some fallout from the GSLV-D3 cryo engine failure.

Obviously the govt has been stung by the high-profile failure, and is moving to make some organizational changes as a result. Any opinions on whether this will make a difference?
^^ I thought he was taking up the position of MKG Nair, who as per the article is the outgoing director (as per my understanding is retiring at the end of his service, I maybe wrong)

Anyone who is retiring will have to be replaced irrespective of launch failure or success. Isn't it?
Or is there more to the story?
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Raye »

deleted

Didn't see this article or reference to this website, admin plz delete in case of repost.
Last edited by Jagan on 09 Jun 2010 20:05, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Link spam
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by AdityaM »

Magnetic Refuge Found on Moon
The 360-kilometer- (224-mile-) wide magnetosphere was detected by an instrument on the Indian Chandrayaan-1 spacecraft.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Matthew_H »

I appreciate the criticism - and am not afraid to say that some of it is helpful.

Regarding comments that I have not mentioned the United States or China. I spent nearly five years focused on the space warfare pursuits of the United States. The US set this whole space dominance movement into motion. Writing about the US space dominance push is like writing a paper about the sun coming up in the morning - it is a waste of time and your not doing anyone any favors.

India will soon be on par with China and the United States in regard to military space technology. Therefore they will be in the same club. If anyone here believes that India's military space know how is not on par with that of China or the US then they are failing to give DRDO and ISRO the credit that they deserve.

More importantly, my motivation is this. The US defense industry is not selling India security - they are selling India's future and DRDO is licking their chops for these technologie$. The two sides are jumping into the sack together and this is going to fuel increased arms racing with China and add to tensions with Pakistan. As the DoD is providing fighter jets to both India and Pakistan the USG is also setting your nation up to be my nation's proxy rival to China.

I find it concerning that many people are simply turning a blind eye to stories such as this: http://bit.ly/IndiaBoeing

More specifically, touching on one of my key gripes is that India is in the process of handcuffing itself to a progressively escalating move-countermove dynamic with China when India's single greatest security threat comes from terrorism. Missile defense and antisatellite pursuits will not protect India from terrorists - these systems will only create new threats.

I believe that along side terrorism issues such as poverty, HIV/AIDS and agricultural dilemmas are some of the most significant threats to India's national security. DoD and DRDO priorities will take from the people by spending hundreds of millions on weaponry.

I also do not believe that parts of India's defense establishment have truly evolved from who the were before the sanctions were lifted. This is reflected in noble statements by political officials that stress nonviolent applications of technology, such as space exploration and remote sensing that are immediately contradicted and undermined before you can bat an eyelash by someone from DRDO who starts ranting like a war hawk about bombs, lasers and ASATS. Many of you are well aware that the US lifted nearly every sanction placed against India in less than six weeks after the attacks on 9/11 - is this a relationship built on trust? No it is not. Both sides are trying to play the other like a piano and it is coming at the expense of the people of India.

I am trying to draw attention to these issues and that will be seen in my future writing and can be seen in my past writing.

With best wishes to all.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by a_kumar »

@ Matthew_H

Glad to know more about your perspective. While you mention US and China a couple of times, you drop china in the meaty part.

You say time on US is a waste and its clear you see time on India as giving you most bang for the buck. IOW, you are looking at what "you see as a low-hanging" fruit (India) rather than an honest campaign (US/China/India).

If not support, you would at least get some respect, if you had spent some time on a holistic view of things. By singling out India and worse, by disregarding Chinese actions next door in the equation, your views would be seen as prejudiced and naive, if not biased. I am not sure what you gain by doing that, at the least on BRF.

Never mind that US is too far ahead, if you can spend some time on bringing up a "US Page" and most importantly "China Page" before an "India page", we would have had something to talk about. Its not too late still!!

And please note that "responsibility of not starting and arms race" rests with several sides, more so on the sides that pro-actively build and demonstrate capabilities in neighborhood. By single-mindedly hounding India on this front and leaving out others by one pretext or other, even when India's actions have been open and reactive, the views at best are naive and worst obnoxious and malicious.

Hoping to hear a more balanced view point.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by sum »

I believe that along side terrorism issues such as poverty, HIV/AIDS and agricultural dilemmas are some of the most significant threats to India's national security. DoD and DRDO priorities will take from the people by spending hundreds of millions on weaponry.
Was wondering as to how this gem took so long to drop off?
IIRC, this should have been the first statement before talking about poor, 3rd world India onlee... :roll: :roll:
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Singha »

throw in caste wars/sex dishkimination/foeticide/linguistic tensions and you get the usual Khichi with garam masala and fried papad
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by hnair »

Matthew_H wrote:I appreciate the criticism - and am not afraid to say that some of it is helpful.

Regarding comments that I have not mentioned the United States or China. I spent nearly five years focused on the space warfare pursuits of the United States. The US set this whole space dominance movement into motion. Writing about the US space dominance push is like writing a paper about the sun coming up in the morning - it is a waste of time and your not doing anyone any favors.
If the sun comes up in the morning, we all have to carry an umbrella. Why should we not? Unfortunately, the moon to our north (who likes reflected glory of the sun) too started getting hot. Because you failed, we all have to fold our umbrellas up and plead for mercy from the sun and moon?
I believe that along side terrorism issues such as poverty, HIV/AIDS and agricultural dilemmas are some of the most significant threats to India's national security. DoD and DRDO priorities will take from the people by spending hundreds of millions on weaponry.
And I strongly believe US should prioritize on a better type of sponge to absorb the damage it caused to the world with the latest oil spill. Not to mention the segregation of poor onto the Projects and a permanent way to stop preventing global terrorism emanating from its favorite stooge in our neighborhood. Instead we see this X-37 project. Whom is this against?
I also do not believe that parts of India's defense establishment have truly evolved from who the were before the sanctions were lifted. This is reflected in noble statements by political officials that stress nonviolent applications of technology, such as space exploration and remote sensing that are immediately contradicted and undermined before you can bat an eyelash by someone from DRDO who starts ranting like a war hawk about bombs, lasers and ASATS. Many of you are well aware that the US lifted nearly every sanction placed against India in less than six weeks after the attacks on 9/11 - is this a relationship built on trust? No it is not. Both sides are trying to play the other like a piano and it is coming at the expense of the people of India.

I am trying to draw attention to these issues and that will be seen in my future writing and can be seen in my past writing.
You guys made that happen, with sanctions etc. Earlier in India, the hawks and doves were all together. A hawk squawks too loud, doves craps on its head to shut it up. And if dove population increases and the cooing becomes insufferable, the hawks did some culling on the side. But with that Glavkosmos cryo-engine sale shenanigans, you guys drove all the hawks into a great perch. Let them be. They have sharp eyes and they seem to see far.

Any spending on DRDO space tech has easily more funding in the equivalent civilian area (handled by ISRO). So net result is we are still more peaceful than y'all.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by svinayak »

a_kumar wrote:
Never mind that US is too far ahead, if you can spend some time on bringing up a "US Page" and most importantly "China Page" before an "India page", we would have had something to talk about. Its not too late still!!
Fantastic psy ops. Not one word on China proliferation and hawkish stance
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by ramana »

I think he is non resident Chinese supporter.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Matthew_H »

Dear a_kumar

Thank you for your feedback. I do not see India as low hanging fruit at all. It is a matter of the genie still being in the bottle for them. It is the US defense industry that sees India as the low hanging fruit - Lockheed, Boeing and the rest are in your nation to feast with no regard for your nations future. In the meantime India is on a trajectory to become handcuffed to a military space race that will only undermine national security. Russia, China and the United States have already crossed this threshold.

I had recently considered adding a US page because I have mountains of information regarding our space warfare pursuits - China to a lesser degree. In fact when I created the Military Space Transparency Project I expected that the US would be my primary area of research. This focus broadened for numerous reasons, some that I have mentioned here in my posts. I don't need to tell you, I am in Boston and you are in India - you live in the most volatile security environment on the planet in my opinion, with a nuclear neighbor, China in the back yard and terrorism all around. At the same time there companies that stand to profit from your nation and they are willing to pour gasoline on an already burning security situation to make that $$$.

I will continue to cover India, it is important to do so. I will also continue to cover the United States and post my US content to balance the viewpoint and of course China has be in the mix more significantly. I see the big picture a_kumar, and I believe that the stakes are the highest for India. There is a foreign defense industry that desperately wants to profit from your nation - it is no secret - and DRDO is not going to stop them. In the meantime I look forward to getting some US material up on my page in the coming weeks.

I wish you a pleasant evening.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by ramana »

Thanks for worrying about India. Please worry about your own country whicheve it is. As the Roman's said "Physician, heal thyself!"
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

Really, Mathew!! DRDO can stop foreign cos from promoting terrorism and India's counter pursuit of weapons!! How naive!! I have a bridge for sale especially in Alaska that has a nice view of Russia and teaches foreign policy for beginners!!
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Matthew_H »

Hnair,

You are correct. We, the United States set this military space race into motion and are currently leading it. Though now India is following the US into an expensive hole. When the US was setting space dominance into motion some in India were trying to warn the world of the dangers of space weapons and emerging technologies. Compare this visionary warning to what we see and hear in the world today: http://bit.ly/IndiaEmb1988 Had the world listened to India's call in 1988 perhaps things would be different today.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Ashok Sarraff »

DELETED.
Last edited by Rahul M on 10 Jun 2010 00:27, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: kindly do not go overboard.
RoyG
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by RoyG »

Matthew_H,

Thanks but no thanks.

Our poor will be just fine.

They have the plow and holy cow.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

am I missing something or is there some kind of
"who makes the most contentless post" contest going on ? strongly suggest that the posts be deleted by the postors themselves.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

while none of us is exactly unacquainted with shoddy scholarship, the bias and numerous instances of passing off opinion as fact in this opinionated article is still remarkable.
Matthew_H wrote: Writing about the US space dominance push is like writing a paper about the sun coming up in the morning - it is a waste of time and your not doing anyone any favors.
assuming this is true, conversely, penning an article on India is doing someone some favour ?
who is the 'favoured' party in this instance ?
in any case, you acknowledge that the US is the initiator of this arms race, isn't it common sense that to stop the arms race you need to tackle it at the origin rather than at the effects ?


.................

More importantly, my motivation is this. The US defense industry is not selling India security - they are selling India's future and DRDO is licking their chops for these technologie$.
and there, you lose whatever credibility you have. I would normally ask for data/reports to support this claim and but it is anyway unlikely you would find those to bolster your assertion.
only someone completely ignorant of DRDO's history, motivation and function would make such a statement, either that or the person thinks everyone else is a fool.
fact 1. in most cases DRDO is in direct competition with US and other foreign suppliers to provide equipment to India's armed forces. they want the military to use items developed by them, not those bought from outside.
in fact, owing to US hypocrisy and strong-arm tactics (for example, withholding LCA control laws undergoing testing in US which were developed by Indian scientists, IOW over which US had no claim whatsoever) most of DRDO establishment is staunchly against any co-operation with US.

fact 2. as of now, we know of no (or negligible) instances where US has offered any form of military technology other than as part of TOT for some lucrative military sale.
what you seem to be unaware of is that this kind of technology transfer other than being low-tech by definition has nothing to do with DRDO.

so please, either do some honest research or couch your bias in less obvious language. :wink:


The two sides are jumping into the sack together and this is going to fuel increased arms racing with China and add to tensions with Pakistan.
as of now we see no proof that 'the two sides are jumping into the sack together'. rather ISRO and DRDO both continue to be under sanctions, even for basic COTS items. moreover, tensions with pakistan has no bearing on this. I understand that looking from a western POV you are wont to mix up cause and effect. tensions with pakistan will be unchanged whether India arms itself to US levels or disarms to bhutan's level, as long as the nation called India exists there would be 'tension' in pakistan collective psyche and India would have to be prepared for it. right now we have relative peace because pakistani military is conventionally inferior to ours. anytime pakistan believes that it has achieved superiority or parity(like they assumed during kargil in the aftermath of the nuclear tests), we would see another conflict thrust upon us. even in the past, pakistan's military adventurism has always been preceded by the US arming it to achieve parity with India(1965 and 1971)
in such a situation, US continuing arming pakistan's military free of cost, with items that have nothing to do combating terrorism, like F-16 fighters, P-3c MPA, OHP frigates etc, is magnitudes more destabilising to the Indian sub-continent than the make-believe problem you have highlighted. if you are serious and honest about your objective of not adding to the tension in this region, you should question why your govt is arming to the teeth a country whose military is the brains behind world terrorism and responsible for exporting terrorism throughout the world.

As the DoD is providing fighter jets to both India and Pakistan the USG is also setting your nation up to be my nation's proxy rival to China.
that may or may not be what the US is doing (chimerica and all that ?), my personal guess being the obama govt's foreign policy is mainly shaped by clinton and the clintons were generally pro-china.
but you(or the US) have to be incredibly naive to think that India would allow herself to be commandeered by the US. :eek: India would do what's in her best interests, if our interests align with US interests we would co-operate, if those aligns with the PRC's we would co-operate with them too. even during the much more pressing days of cold war we didn't surrender our independence, we are certainly not going to do so now that we have overcome much of our dependence on the outside world. your fear is unbelievably misplaced.


I find it concerning that many people are simply turning a blind eye to stories such as this: http://bit.ly/IndiaBoeing
they want to sell. we will buy if it suits us. end of story, what's there to be concerned about ?
now, I don't believe for a moment that your concern is that India may be spending disproportionately on weapons and thereby worsen life for the masses.
what you are actually afraid of is that during the economic downturn in the west, co's like LM or boeing might surrender US's technological lead in an endeavour to make a quick buck. but fear not, the SD will stall all such cases of TOT !

More specifically, touching on one of my key gripes is that India is in the process of handcuffing itself to a progressively escalating move-countermove dynamic with China when India's single greatest security threat comes from terrorism.
this is an example of passing off what is essentially an unsubstantiated opinion, as fact. the threat from china and the threat from terrorism are BOTH very real. I really do not need to expound on chinese moves and statements over the last decade to illustrate this. in case you are interested, have a look at the china military watch and the various border news threads. the terrorism angle is more interesting, we are subjected to terrorist attacks from pakistan precisely because our conventional superiority deters the PA from declaring open war. china meanwhile continues to test our resolve by aggressively patrolling on the borders, many a times within our border. it is only our conventional military parity in the relevant sectors that is barely keeping open hostilities in check. if we do not develop some form of ASAT weapons as a deterrence we might as well have to face open hostility on our space assets as well.

Missile defense and antisatellite pursuits will not protect India from terrorists
does that come as a revelation to you ? :eek: of course it doesn't, because it's not meant to ! just like penicillin doesn't cure cancer, because it is not meant to cure cancer. that doesn't mean penicillin is useless. similarly, ABM and ASAT systems are meant to deter pakistan and PRC respectively, if it does that the objectives are fulfilled, whether it protects against terrorism or not !
these systems will only create new threats.
really ? what new threats are these ? would you care to mention them ?


I believe that along side terrorism issues such as poverty, HIV/AIDS and agricultural dilemmas are some of the most significant threats to India's national security.
again, these have nothing to do with the issue you are highlighting, these are factors that all developing countries have to deal with and in India's case there is certainly no dearth of funds for the aforementioned problems, certainly not from excess spending on military.
here you go, check out the military spending by GDP, I believe the list is reasonably accurate. for a country with our threat perception, our military spending as low as can be imagined and then a bit lower. you do need to get your facts right for people to take you seriously. :wink:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... penditures
so harping on India's military expenditure claiming it to be at the cost of social spending is rather disingenuous.
DoD and DRDO priorities will take from the people by spending hundreds of millions on weaponry.
hello there, India already has to spend billions (not millions) in arms purchases in order to prevent open war, no thanks to a string of US administrations that have armed and propped up regime after regime in our western neighbour hell-bent on making war on India. DRDO's job is actually to lessen that bill, by developing and making items in India which would be cheaper for us and the money spent would stay in the country. DOD's objectives, whatever they may be has no relation with DRDO's objectives, so speaking of 'DoD and DRDO priorities' is rather misleading.

I also do not believe that parts of India's defense establishment have truly evolved from who the were before the sanctions were lifted. This is reflected in noble statements by political officials that stress nonviolent applications of technology, such as space exploration and remote sensing that are immediately contradicted and undermined before you can bat an eyelash by someone from DRDO who starts ranting like a war hawk about bombs, lasers and ASATS.
I'm not sure if this comment stems from ignorance or some other motive, DRDO stands for Defence Research and Development Organisation, it is its job to develop "bombs, lasers and ASATS" and those "rantings" are part of its efforts to let the tax-paying Indian public know what it is doing with their money. :roll:
there is NO contradiction between what statements have been made about peaceful uses of technology and public statements from DRDO. now you may be unaware or loathe to admit but India has been at the forefront of using space based technology for the benefit of common people. our space program has been consistently driven by an effort to better the life of the common Indian(as against prestige driven space programs that offered little tangible benefit for a long time). the ASATS and similar programs are simply to safeguard these assets against any potential hostile action and the even what little we know of the program suggest that they are minimal in nature with the sole objective of deterrence. to extrapolate that as a cause of space arms race requires a rather long stretch of imagination !
therefore, when a purported expert on India's space program tries to suppress the obvious peaceful nature and blows out of proportion the miniscule effort to create a defensive measure to protect it, one wonders what is the real motive behind such contortion of facts ?

Many of you are well aware that the US lifted nearly every sanction placed against India in less than six weeks after the attacks on 9/11
many of us are also aware that the sanctions that matter are still in place. the technology denial regime is primarily to prevent the creation of a rival tech-power than any high-minded idea. it would be impossible to explain otherwise why the completely civilian ISRO is still in the entities list.
- is this a relationship built on trust? No it is not. Both sides are trying to play the other like a piano and it is coming at the expense of the people of India.
you know, I can't help but laugh because that sounds so hollow ! just one simple question, exactly how do you arrive at this brilliant conclusion ?
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Samay »

Matthew_H wrote:
I will continue to cover India, it is important to do so. I will also continue to cover the United States and post my US content to balance the viewpoint and of course China has be in the mix more significantly. I see the big picture a_kumar, and I believe that the stakes are the highest for India. There is a foreign defense industry that desperately wants to profit from your nation - it is no secret - and DRDO is not going to stop them. In the meantime I look forward to getting some US material up on my page in the coming weeks.

I wish you a pleasant evening.
Matthew_H ,
thanks for your concern about India, good to see someone in usa really cares about India.
as far as MNCs selling India's future is consider, I must tell you to notice,who is the buyer,
DRDO -nope
HAL-nope
Defence-to a certain degree
Politicians-promoters
A nation whose politicians are traveling extensively to sell its future to anyone,is ready to sell itself . its just a matter of time they find someone,in this case Americans are the big fish..
Im going to tell you a secret,or in fact two secrets.,
First ,in this decade you will see USA being preferred partially.
Sometimes their products and attached strings will be rejected and sometimes accepted,in the Indian-Defence circle . But slowly-slowly they will penetrate the market,the needs and the 'necessity'...

Second, India is going to be a big space-power in the future, and that's where you need to be more concerned. Don't let your NASA run out of money to pay Indian brains :wink:
just think about the money-side, rest of things are all constant .. :wink:
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by svinayak »

Matthew_H wrote: Geographically, it is also comparable in its potential for volatility; South Asia is a highly volatile region—home to two nuclear weapons states, including India, that fought in multiple wars, the last taking place in 1999. In fact, since the Kargil War, India-Pakistan relations have not moved towards peace and remain highly unstable.
This is mostly fear mongering.
All the agreements between India and Pakistan was signed after 2001 and it created stable composite dialogue between the countries which had alluded for a long time. Cross border firing and terrorists intrusion into Kashmir has come to all time low after 2004.
This does not indicate any "highly unstable" region.
This betrays the intent of the article since all the media glare has been to feed on the WWII/colonial/historical problem for the last 60 years.
Last edited by svinayak on 10 Jun 2010 05:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by sanjaykumar »

Neo-Marxism:a diffusion of the monoploy of the means of coercion may make for a safer world.
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Should India Outsource Space to Private Sector?

Post by Sanjay M »

ESA boss: Falcon 9 ‘cause to reflect’

So even the European Space Agency has been given pause for thought by SpaceX's recent Falcon9 launch success.

Why shouldn't we also think about it? Could India spin off some of its lower-level launch services to the private sector, by selling the PSLV arm to a consortium of Indian companies? Then ISRO can more fully concentrate on the newer GSLV platform and the Human SpaceFlight program, while a private operator takes over India's mature launcher with its proven track record.

Should India outsource space to the private sector?
What are the pro's and cons to this idea?

One argument against has been that space is a very politicized sector, with govts applying legal arm-twisting to prevent business from going to other countries' launchers. Yet the most recent news is that the US is loosening controls on space-related technology trade with India.

Is the time ripe for private Indian companies to get involved in space? If not, then when will the time be ripe for it, if ever?

Is the market large enough or active enough to support even just one private Indian launch provider? Are there enough business opportunities?
Would an Indian launch provider be capable of competing with the international competition? Or would it be relegated to just serving Indian launch needs only? Would there be enough of those?
Would a private launcher be able to operate profitably, or would it need govt support?

Could the Indian govt create its own COTS program, to provide a private partner a guarantee for a minimum amount of business (minimum number of launches per year) from the Indian govt?

Would spinning off PSLV to a privately run operation then generate any significant cost savings? Could it accelerate the pace of space technology development in India?

Opinions? Comments?
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by a_kumar »

Matthew_H wrote:I do not see India as low hanging fruit at all. It is a matter of the genie still being in the bottle for them. It is the US defense industry that sees India as the low hanging fruit - Lockheed, Boeing and the rest are in your nation to feast with no regard for your nations future. In the meantime India is on a trajectory to become handcuffed to a military space race that will only undermine national security. Russia, China and the United States have already crossed this threshold.
Are we talking about Space race or something else?

And thanks for coming clean. What you have just said in highlighted is that you want another NPT done on India!! (You might see that in India's interest!)

1968: Here is what some bright mind said
US/Russia/UK/France and China crossed the threshold.. so stop the kaafirs (wink, wink, India!)
And where did that leave India, as China started sprinkling nukes in India's neighborhood like its a farmer's market?
How much did that improve India's security? Or should India have sought China's mercy, would that better serve your world view?

Please stop pretending like you wish India any good!
Matthew_H wrote:I had recently considered adding a US page because I have mountains of information regarding our space warfare pursuits - China to a lesser degree.
It seems like you are willing to paint a bulls-eye on those who are open, rather than those who are the real culprits. It seems like the message you are giving India is, "Shut up, shoot a SAT, then talk and get away with it". Thats actually good advice to our loud mouthed scientists!
Matthew_H wrote: I don't need to tell you, I am in Boston and you are in India - you live in the most volatile security environment on the planet in my opinion, with a nuclear neighbor, China in the back yard and terrorism all around.
Finally! Well, the only way terrorists in our neighborhood can have anything to do with anything in space would be ............ yes.. you guessed right! And it seems like you have near-zero knowledge of their intentions. If you want to save the world, then this should be the sole focus of your energies.

Who knows, maybe you can prevent AQKhan's Walmart from adding a "Space-mart" section 20 years later. And that is the BIG PICTURE.

If you still have some lingering concern on India, rest assured, India will have nothing to do with AQKhan's Walmart or NoKo or Taliban trying to get these capabilities.
Matthew_H wrote: I will also continue to cover the United States and post my US content to balance the viewpoint and of course China has be in the mix more significantly.
Good luck!! Looking forward to some interesting finds.
Matthew_H wrote:I see the big picture a_kumar, and I believe that the stakes are the highest for India.
No Mr. H, you don't. If you had started this blog in 1988 or 1998, then maybe your statement would have been accurate. You are now trying to catch a train that's long left the station. With the China's and US's ASAT tests, India getting the capability is inevitable.

Your focus should now be on the real threat.. another AQKhan's mart.

As you pointed, stakes are higher for India and India did the responsible thing in 1988 and tried to prevent just such a situation. If the belligerent regimes continue defiantly, then its time India became practical and look after itself.

To me, it seems like India preached the "Gandhian way" and followed up for 20 years, but with inmates breaking free, its gotten real and began working on the "Kali way". I will sleep well knowing the leadership is flexible enough to adapt.
Matthew_H wrote: We, the United States set this military space race into motion and are currently leading it. Though now India is following the US into an expensive hole.
Since you are well familiar with the US record, do share that with us a timeline. And while at it, please point to the point where US efforts rubbed off on India.

I am really curious to see how long one can make this a US-India pattern and persist with the Ostritch-syndrome.
Matthew_H wrote:Compare this visionary warning to what we see and hear in the world today: http://bit.ly/IndiaEmb1988 Had the world listened to India's call in 1988 perhaps things would be different today.
Thanks for bringing that up, because that in itself should have provided some insight. In case it didn't, would you please respond to below.
- In your words, what did India's sane advice yield India?
- How secure is India two decades later by trying to be prevent a space race in 1988?
- Did India put money where their mouth was for two decades?
- Were there any "hawkish" (your words) views emanating from India before 2007?
- What did US do in 2007 to warrant a change of heart by India?
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