Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

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naren
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by naren »

X-posted from History and Archeology thread

http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part2/chap2.htm
The Universal Religion
- Sri Sri Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswathi (Kanchi MahaSwamiji)

In the dim past what we call Hinduism today was prevalent all over the world. Archaeological studies reveal the existence of relics of our Vedic religion in many countries. For instance, excavations have brought up the text of a treaty between Rameses II and the Hittites dating back to the 14th century B. C. In this, the Vedic gods Mitra and Varuna are mentioned as witnesses to the pact. There is a connection between the name of Ramesses and that of our Rama.

About 75 per cent of the names of places in Madagascar have a Sanskritic origin.

In the Western Hemisphere too there is evidence of Hinduism having once flourished there. In Mexico a festival is celebrated at the same time as our Navaratri; it is called "Rama-Sita". Wherever the earth is dug up images of Ganapati are discovered here. The Aztecs had inhabited Mexico before the Spaniards conquered that land. "Aztecs " must be a distorted form of "Astikas". In Peru, during the time of the holy equinox [vernal? ] worship was conducted in the sun temple. The people of this land were called Incas: "Ina" is one of the Sanskrit names of the sun god. Don't we call Rama Inakula-tilaka?

There is book containing photographs of the aborigines of Australia dancing in the nude (The Native Tribes of Central Australia, by Spencer Killan, pages 128 & 129). A close look at the pictures, captioned "Siva Dance", shows that the dancers have a third eye drawn on the forehead.


In a virgin forest in Borneo which, it is said, had not been penetrated by any human being until recently, explorers have found a sacrificial post with an inscription in a script akin to our Granthas characters. Historians know it as the inscription of Mulavarman of Kotei. Mention is made in it of a sacrifice, the king who performed it, the place where the yupas was installed. That the king gave away kalpavrksass as a gift to Brahmins is also stated in this inscription. All such details were discovered by Europeans, the very people who ridicule our religion.

Now something occurs to me in this context, something that you may find amusing. You know that the Sagaras went on digging the earth down to the nether world in search of their sacrificial horse. An ocean came into being in this way and it was called sagara after the king Sagara.

The Sagaras, at last found the horse near the hermitage of Kapila Maharsi. Thinking that he must be the man who had stolen the animal and hidden it in the nether world they laid violent hands on him. Whereupon the sage reduced them to ashes with a mere glance of his eye. Such is the story according to the Ramayana. America, which is at the antipodes, may be taken to Patala or the nether world. Kapilaranya(the forest in which Kapila had his hermitage), we may further take it, was situated there. It is likely that Kapilaranya changed to California in the same manner as Madurai is something altered to "Marudai". Also noteworthy is the fact that there is a Horse Island near California as well as an Ash Island.

Another idea occurs to me about Sagara and sagara. Geologists believe that ages ago the Sahara desert was an ocean. It seems to me that Sahara is derived from sagara.

Some historians try to explain the evidence pointing to the worldwide prevalence of our religion in the past to the exchange of cultural and religious ideas between India and other countries established through travels. I myself believe that there was one common religion or dharma throughout and that the signs and symbols that we find of this today are the creation of the original inhabitants of the lands concerned.

The view put forward by some students of history about the discovery of the remnants of our religion in other countries- these relating to what is considered the historical period of the past two or three thousand years- is that Indians went to these lands, destroyed the old native civilizations there and imposed Hindu culture in their place. Alternatively, they claim, Indians thrust their culture into the native ways of life in such a way that it became totally absorbed in them.

The fact, however, is that evidence is to be found in many countries of their Vedic connection dating back to 4, 000 years or more. That is, with the dawn of civilization itself, aspects of the Vedic dharama existed in these lands. It was only subsequently that the inhabitants of these regions came to have a religion of their own.

Greece had an ancient religion and had big temples where various deities were worshipped. The Hellenic religion had Vedic elements in it. The same was the case with the Semitic religions of the pre- Christian era in the region associated with Jesus. The aborigines of Mexico had a religion of their own. They shared the Vedic view of the divine in the forces of nature and worshipped them as deities. There was a good deal of ritual in all such religions.

Now none of these religions, including that of Greece, survives. The Greek civilization had once attained to the heights of glory. Now Christianity flourishes in Greece. Buddhism has spread in Central Asia and in East Asia up to Japan. According to anthropologists, religions in their original form exist only in areas like the forests of Africa. But even these ancient faiths contain Vedic elements.

Religious and philosophical truths are often explained through parables, stories, so that ignorant people can understand them easily. Since metaphysical concepts are difficult to grasp, either they have to be told in the form of a story or they have to be given the form of a ritual, that is they must find expression as religious acts. For the common people the performance of a rite is a means of finding the truth present in it in the form of a symbol. I do not, however, agree with the view that all rituals are nothing but symbolic in their significance and that there is no need to perform them so long as their inner meaning is understood.

Ritual as ritual has its own place and efficacy. Similarly, I would not say that stories from the Puranas are nothing but illustrations or explanations of certain truths or doctrines. As stories they are of a high order and I believe that they really happened. But, at the same time, they demonstrate the meaning of certain truths. As for rites, their performance brings up benefits. But in due course, as we learn to appreciate their inner meaning we shall become purified in mind. This is the stage when we shall no more yearn for any benefits from their performance and will be rewarded with supreme well-being (that is, liberation).

It is likely, though, that, with the passage of time, some stories or rites will become far removed from their inner meaning. Or, it may be, the inner meaning will be altogether forgotten. So it must be that, when new religions took shape abroad, after the lapse of thousands of years-religions not connected with the Vedic faith that is the root-the original Vedic concepts become transformed or distorted.

You must be familiar with the story of Adam and Eve which belongs to the Hebrew tradition. It occurs in the Genesis of the Old Testament and speaks of the tree of knowledge and God's commandment that its fruit shall not be eaten. Adam at first did not eat it but Eve did. After that Adam too ate the forbidden fruit.

Here an Upanisadic concept has taken the form of a biblical story. But because of the change in the time and place the original idea has become distorted-or even obliterated.

The Upanisadic story speaks of two birds perched on the branch of a pippala tree. One eats the fruit of tree while the order merely watches its companion without eating. The pippala tree stands for the body. The first bird represents a being that regards himself as the jivatman or individual self and the fruit it eats signifies sensual pleasure. In the same body (symbolized by the tree) the second bird is to be understood as the Paramatman. He is the support of all beings but he does not know sensual pleasure. Since he does not eat the fruit he naturally does not have the same experience as the jivatman (the first). The Upanisad speaks with poetic beauty of the two birds. He who eats the fruit is the individual self, jiva, and he who does not eat is the Supreme Reality, the one who knows himself to be the Atman.

It is this jiva that has come to be called Eve in the Hebrew religious tradition. "Ji" changes to "i" according to a rule of grammar and "ja" to "ya". We have the example of "Yamuna" becoming "Jamuna" or of "Yogindra" being changed to "Joginder ". In the biblical story "jiva" is "Eve" and "Atma" (or "Atman") is "Adam". "Pippala" has in the same way changed to "apple". The Tree of Knowledge is our "bodhi-vrksa". "Bodha" means "knowledge". It is well known that the Budhha attained enlightenment under the bodhi tree. But the pipal (pippala) was known as the bodhi tree even before his time.

The Upanisadic ideas transplanted into a distant land underwent a change after the lapse of centuries. Thus we see in the biblical story that the Atman (Adam) that can never be subject to sensual pleasure also eats the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. While our bodhi tree stands for enlightenment, the enlightenment that banishes all sensual pleasure, the biblical tree affords worldly pleasure. These differences notwithstanding there is sufficient evidence here that, once upon a time, Vedic religion was prevalent in the land of the Hebrews.


Let me give the another example to strengthen the view that however much a custom or a concept changes with the passage of time and with its acceptance by people of another land, it will still retain elements pointing to its original source. Our TiruppavaiT and TiruvembavaiT are not as ancient as the Vedas. Scholars ascribe them to an age not later than 1, 500 years ago. However it be, the authors of these Tamil hymns, AndalT and ManikkavacakarT, belong to an age much later than that of the Vedas and epics. After their time Hindu empires arose across the seas. Even the Cola kings extended their sway beyond the shores of the country. More worthy of note than our naval expeditions was the great expansion in our sea trade and the increase with it of our foreign contacts. As a result, people abroad were drawn to the Hindu religion and culture. Among the regions that developed such contacts, South-East Asia was the most important. Islands like Bali in the Indonesian archipelago became wholly Hindu. People in Siam (Thailand), Indochina and the Philippines came under the influence of Hindu culture. Srivijaya was one of the great empires of South-East Asia.

[Here the Paramaguru briefly touches upon the stages representing the emergence of various religions]. In primeval times the Vedic religion was prevalent everywhere: this was the first stage. In the second stage new religions emerged in various parts of the world. In the third stage these decayed and their place was taken by Buddhism, Christianity or Islam. In the subsequent stage the Hindu civilization became a living force outside the shores of India also, particularly in South-East Asia. This was the period during which great temples reminding us of those of Tamil Nadu arose with the spread of our religion and culture: Angkor-vat in Cambodia; Borobudur in Java, Indonesia; Prambanan, also in Java. Now it was that our Tiruppavai and Tiruvembavai made their passage to Thailand.

Even today a big festival is held in Thailand in December- January, corresponding to the Tamil Margazhi, the same month during which we read the Tiruppavai and Tiruvembavai with devotion.
As part of the celebrations a dolotsava (swing festival) is held. A remarkable feature of this is that, in the ceremony meant for Visnu, a man with the make-up of Siva is seated on the swing. This seems to be in keeping with the fact that the Tiruppavai and Tiruvembavai contribute to the unification of Vaisnavism and Saivism.

If you ask the people of Thailand about the Pavai poems, they will not be able to speak about them. It might seem then that there is no basis for connecting the that festival with the Pavai works merely because it is held in the month corresponding to the Tamil Murgazhi. But the point to note is that the people of that country themselves call it "Triyampavai- Trippavai".


Those who read the Bible today are likely to be ignorant about the Upanisads, but they are sure to know the story that can be traced back to them, that of Adam and Eve. The Thais now must be likewise ignorant about the Pavis but, all the same, they hold in the month of Dhanus every year a celebration called "Triyampavai - Trippavai. " As part of it they also have a swing festival in which figures a man dressed as Siva. Here the distortion in the observance of a rite have occurred during historical times- one of the distortions is that of Siva being substituted for Visnu. Also during this period the Thais have forgotten the Pavis but, significantly enough, they still conduct a festival named after them. Keeping these before you, take mind back to three thousand years ago and imagine how a religion or a culture would have changed after its passage to foreign lands.

It is in this context that you must consider the Vedic tradition. For all the changes and distortions that it has undergone in other countries during the past millennia its presence there is still proclaimed through elements to be found in the religions that supplanted it.

How are we to understand the presence of Hindu ideas or concepts in the religious beliefs of people said to belong to prehistoric times? It does not seem right to claim that in the distant past our religion or culture was propagated in other countries through an armed invasion or through trade, that is at a time when civilization itself has not taken shape there. That is why I feel that there is no question of anything having been taken from this land and introduced into another country. The fact according to me, is that in the beginning the Vedic religion was prevalent all over the world. Later, over the countries, it must have gone through a process of change and taken different forms. These forms came to be called the original religions of these various lands which in the subsequent period- during historical times- came under Buddhism, Christianity or Islam as the case may be.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

OK I found some references. Here we go!
The 10 Most Puzzling Ancient Artifacts


The Bible tells us that God created Adam and Eve just a few thousand years ago, by some fundamentalist interpretations. Science informs us that this is mere fiction and that man is a few million years old, and that civilization just tens of thousands of years old. Could it be, however, that conventional science is just as mistaken as the Bible stories? There is a great deal of archeological evidence that the history of life on earth might be far different than what current geological and anthropological texts tell us. Consider these astonishing finds:

The Grooved Spheres
Over the last few decades, miners in South Africa have been digging up mysterious metal spheres. Origin unknown, these spheres measure approximately an inch or so in diameter, and some are etched with three parallel grooves running around the equator. Two types of spheres have been found: one is composed of a solid bluish metal with flecks of white; the other is hollowed out and filled with a spongy white substance. The kicker is that the rock in which they where found is Precambrian - and dated to 2.8 billion years old! Who made them and for what purpose is unknown.

The Dropa Stones
In 1938, an archeological expedition led by Dr. Chi Pu Tei into the Baian-Kara-Ula mountains of China made an astonishing discovery in some caves that had apparently been occupied by some ancient culture. Buried in the dust of ages on the cave floor were hundreds of stone disks. Measuring about nine inches in diameter, each had a circle cut into the center and was etched with a spiral groove, making it look for all the world like some ancient phonograph record some 10,000 to 12,000 years old. The spiral groove, it turns out, is actually composed of tiny hieroglyphics that tell the incredible story of spaceships from some distant world that crash-landed in the mountains. The ships were piloted by people who called themselves the Dropa, and the remains of whose descendents, possibly, were found in the cave.

The Ica Stones
Beginning in the 1930s, the father of Dr. Javier Cabrera, Cultural Anthropologist for Ica, Peru, discovered many hundreds of ceremonial burial stones in the tombs of the ancient Incas. Dr. Cabrera, carrying on his father's work, has collected more than 1,100 of these andesite stones, which are estimated to be between 500 and 1,500 years old and have become known collectively as the Ica Stones. The stones bear etchings, many of which are sexually graphic (which was common to the culture), some picture idols and others depict such practices as open-heart surgery and brain transplants. The most astonishing etchings, however, clearly represent dinosaurs - brontosaurs, triceratops (see photo), stegosaurus and pterosaurs. While skeptics consider the Ica Stones a hoax, their authenticity has neither been proved or disproved.


The Antikythera Mechanism
A perplexing artifact was recovered by sponge-divers from a shipwreck in 1900 off the coast of Antikythera, a small island that lies northwest of Crete. The divers brought up from the wreck a great many marble and and bronze statues that had apparently been the ship's cargo. Among the findings was a hunk of corroded bronze that contained some kind of mechanism composed of many gears and wheels. Writing on the case indicated that it was made in 80 B.C., and many experts at first thought it was an astrolabe, an astronomer's tool. An x-ray of the mechanism, however, revealed it to be far more complex, containing a sophisticated system of differential gears. Gearing of this complexity was not known to exist until 1575! It is still unknown who constructed this amazing instrument 2,000 years ago or how the technology was lost.

The Baghdad Battery
Today batteries can be found in any grocery, drug, convenience and department store you come across. Well, here's a battery that's 2,000 years old! Known as the Baghdad Battery, this curiosity was found in the ruins of a Parthian village believed to date back to between 248 B.C. and 226 A.D. The device consists of a 5-1/2-inch high clay vessel inside of which was a copper cylinder held in place by asphalt, and inside of that was an oxidized iron rod. Experts who examined it concluded that the device needed only to be filled with an acid or alkaline liquid to produce an electric charge. It is believed that this ancient battery might have been used for electroplating objects with gold. If so, how was this technology lost... and the battery not rediscovered for another 1,800 years?

The Coso Artifact
While mineral hunting in the mountains of California near Olancha during the winter of 1961, Wallace Lane, Virginia Maxey and Mike Mikesell found a rock, among many others, that they thought was a geode - a good addition for their gem shop. Upon cutting it open, however, Mikesell found an object inside that seemed to be made of white porcelain. In the center was a shaft of shiny metal. Experts estimated that it should have taken about 500,000 years for this fossil-encrusted nodule to form, yet the object inside was obviously of sophisticated human manufacture. Further investigation revealed that the porcelain was surround by a hexagonal casing, and an x-ray revealed a tiny spring at one end. Some who have examined the evidence say it looks very much like a modern-day spark plug. How did it get inside a 500,000-year-old rock?

Ancient Model Aircraft
There are artifacts belonging to ancient Egyptian and Central American cultures that look amazingly like modern-day aircraft. The Egyptian artifact, found in a tomb at Saqquara, Egypt in 1898, is a six-inch wooden object that strongly resembles a model airplane, with fuselage, wings and tail. Experts believe the object is so aerodynamic that it is actually able to glide. The small object discovered in Central America (shown at right), and estimated to be 1,000 years old, is made of gold and could easily be mistaken for a model of a delta-wing aircraft - or even the Space Shuttle. It even features what looks like a pilot's seat.

Giant Stone Balls of Costa Rica
Workmen hacking and burning their way through the dense jungle of Costa Rica to clear an area for banana plantations in the 1930s stumbled upon some incredible objects: dozens of stone balls, many of which were perfectly spherical. They varied in size from as small as a tennis ball to an astonishing 8 feet in diameter and weighing 16 tons! Although the great stone balls are clearly man-made, it is unknown who made them, for what purpose and, most puzzling, how they achieved such spherical precision.

Impossible Fossils
Fossils, as we learned in grade school, appear in rocks that were formed many thousands of years ago. Yet there are a number of fossils that just don't make geological or historical sense. A fossil of a human handprint, for example, was found in limestone estimated to be 110 million years old. What appears to be a fossilized human finger found in the Canadian Arctic also dates back 100 to 110 million years ago. And what appears to be the fossil of a human footprint, possibly wearing a sandal, was found near Delta, Utah in a shale deposit estimated to be 300 million to 600 million years old.

Out-of-Place Metal Objects
Humans were not even around 65 million years ago, never mind people who could work metal. So then how does science explain semi-ovoid metallic tubes dug out of 65-million-year-old Cretaceous chalk in France? In 1885, a block of coal was broken open to find a metal cube obviously worked by intelligent hands. In 1912, employees at an electric plant broke apart a large chunk of coal out of which fell an iron pot! A nail was found embedded in a sandstone block from the Mesozoic Era. And there are many, many more such anomalies.

What are we to make of these finds? There are several possibilities:

* Intelligent humans date back much, much further than we realize.
* Other intelligent beings and civilizations existed on earth far beyond our recorded history.
* Our dating methods are completely inaccurate, and that stone, coal and fossils form much more rapidly than we now estimate.

In any case, these examples - and there are many more - should prompt any curious and open-minded scientist to reexamine and rethink the true history of life on earth.

Puranic Time and the Archaeological Record

It is noteworthy, however, that a fairly open-minded modern archaeologist, when confronted with the evidence catalogued in my book, himself brought up, in a somewhat doubting manner, the possibility of a cyclical interpretation of human history to explain its occurrence. George F. Carter, noted for his controversial views on early man in North America, wrote to me on January 26, 1994: "If your table on p. 391 were correct, then the minimum age for the artefacts at Table Mountain would be 9 million [years old]. Would you think then of a different creation - [one that] disappeared - and then a new start? Would it simply replicate the archaeology of California 9 million years later? Or the inverse. Would the Californians 9 million years later replicate the materials under Table Mountain?"
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Samay »

SwamyG
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by SwamyG »

The God Project: Hinduism as Open-Source Faith

An HP article titled
teaser...
The sheer volume of spiritual literature and doctrine, the number of distinct gods worshiped (over 30 million, according to some sources), the breadth of distinct philosophies and practices that have emerged, and the total transformation over time of many of the core Indic teachings and beliefs can be disconcerting to those raised in monotheistic cultures, as we are used to each faith bringing with it a defined set of beliefs that -- with the exception of some denominational rifts over the centuries -- stay pretty much consistent over time.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by SwamyG »

By the way, the reason I posted the above is the author's follow-up comment in the article
As I say in the article, "Hinduism" is a misnomer. When you refer to Hinduism, you're really referring to tens of thousands of different schools of belief, many of whom have nothing to do with one another. Are there fundamentalists within India who are intolerant? Certainly. But it is still a very different paradigm than faiths where there is no access and no ability to interpret and redefine scripture. That's the point of this article. Very specifically that Hindus (for lack of a better word) have been in the unique position of having free interpretation over their own religious code, which means the breadth of views on the subject is vast and borderline anarchic. In a good way :)
The highlighted part is the connection to this thread. And look at the value of the portrayal of Indic traditions, so many people get it (forget the stoopids who routinely bring caste into the discussion).
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Sanku »

Huffington post in general stands out as a beacon of intelligence in a increasing bigoted, biased and brainless media, of any country. I have been noticing this in its articles on a variety of issues. Very sane.

What is Huffington post? What are its view etc?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by SwamyG »

Sanku wrote:Huffington post in general stands out as a beacon of intelligence in a increasing bigoted, biased and brainless media, of any country. I have been noticing this in its articles on a variety of issues. Very sane.

What is Huffington post? What are its view etc?
Don't rush so fast to conclusion. It offers variety, no doubt. But sometimes the noise to sound ratio because very high. Their intention seems to be gain more traffic.

HP started out as a platform for liberals/progressives/Democrats/Leftists, founded by Arianna Huffington In the herd of the liberals it is not strange to find sympathetic observers of the Eastern traditions.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by SwamyG »

Some of you might have read "The Gita of J.Robert Oppenheimer" by Professor of History, JAMES A. HIJIYA; for those who have not here you go: http://www.scribd.com/doc/22601438/The- ... ppenheimer

It discusses the nuances of dharma for the Western audience very nicely.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Pulikeshi »

Need a quick favor - has there been any credible research on historic dates for
Rama and Krishna? Have been in discussions with a prof on mythology and history -
any information would help.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Murugan »

1) http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_kr ... ng_1286054

2) Traditional belief based on scriptural details and astrological calculations gives the date of Krishna's birth, known as Janmashtami,[36] as either 18 or 21 July 3228 BCE.

Arun K. Bansal's research published in Outlook India, September 13, 2004. "Krishna (b. July 21, 3228 BC)". http://www.hvk.org/articles/0904/29.html.

N.S. Rajaram takes these dates at face value when he opines that "We have therefore overwhelming evidence showing that Krishna was a historical figure who must have lived within a century on either side of that date, i.e., in the 3200-3000 BC period". (Prof. N. S. Rajaram (September 4, 1999). "Search for the Historical Krishna". www.swordoftruth.com. http://veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/h ... -krsna.htm. Retrieved 2008-06-15.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Murugan »

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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Sanku »

Pulikeshi wrote:Need a quick favor - has there been any credible research on historic dates for
Rama and Krishna? Have been in discussions with a prof on mythology and history -
any information would help.
Yes, astronomical dating. You will find examples in this thread too.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Aditya_V »

Murugan- > if you go by Srimad Bhagvatam, Rama avataram was in Treta Yuga and supposed to have occured 17 Lac years before, it is said Human lives were much longer during Treta Yuga and Ram Rajya lasted for 11,000 years.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Murugan »

Aditya_V,

That may be true. the only limitation is how to convince someone with scientific method. the person should also have enough background to understand this. neways, thanks.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Aditya_V »

Aditya_V- Please confuse science and History which we have today which is just theories and has little facts regarding dates, for example when someone tried carbon dating Indian temples they found that as per pure analysis it was found that the many years older than what was taught in British History, so they introduced a concept of calbirated dating, where you ignore data which does not fit your world view.

The first step in convincing people is to get rid of the False AIT introduced by the Europeans, and thier fictious translations of our scriptures. The rest will automitically unravel
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by abhischekcc »

Aditya_V wrote:Murugan- > if you go by Srimad Bhagvatam, Rama avataram was in Treta Yuga and supposed to have occured 17 Lac years before, it is said Human lives were much longer during Treta Yuga and Ram Rajya lasted for 11,000 years.
IMO, there is some confusion between the words for years and days - if we translate 11000 years as 11000 days, we get 30 years, which is believable.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

Does anyone know of any ancient or medieval text in Indian literature, where there is an explicit denunciation or condemnation of the whole concept of war? One would expect that in Jain, Buddhist and Vaishnavaite Hinduism, particularly in the first two, such a statement would be made. Something along the lines of "War diminishes our common humanity" or "War leads to death and suffering for large numbers of people" etc. Jainism at its most attenuated level does commendably espouse non-violence to what may seem to an outsider, extreme lengths. But it is not clear if there is any ancient or medieval text directly condemning war, or a personage who actually opposed an impending war, citing the inevitable loss of life and suffering that would take place. To the layman, Ashoka's renunciation of conquest seems novel.

But are there any literary works that take a strong philosophical position against the idea of war- this is the question.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by SwamyG »

Pulikeshi wrote:Need a quick favor - has there been any credible research on historic dates for
Rama and Krishna? Have been in discussions with a prof on mythology and history -
any information would help.
Prof R.N.Iyengar has worked dating MB from an astronomical perspective.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/6290755/Histo ... ociety2003
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Pulikeshi »

Thanks to all for responding:
All they need is a date. And July 21, 3228 bc, according to Bansal, satisfies every condition described during Krishna�s birth.

Krishna was born in the Rohini nakshatra, in the Hindu month of Bhadrapada, on the 8th day of the waning moon at midnight. Bansal says this was enough information for him to nail the date, working backwards from Krishna�s death, which he says occurred at 2 pm on February 18, 3102 bc.
1. We have a wide variety of dates for both Rama as well as Krishna.
2. The above quote seems to indicate the Krishna lived for 126 years.
3. If Rama and Krishna are placed at date x and date y - how do the other avatars fit?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

x-post...
Atri wrote:Excerpts from raghuvamsha dealing with northwestern conquests of raghu.... would like to make a map based on this..

अभ्यभूयत वाहानां चरतां गात्रशिञ्जितैः| वर्मभिः पवनोद्धूतराजतालीवनध्वनिः॥ ४-५६
When the war horses are on the move the jangle of accoutrements on their different limbs has outweighed the rustle of the groves of magnificent palm trees that are upheaved by wind.

खर्जूरीस्कन्धनद्धानां मदोद्गारसुगन्धिषु| कटेषु करिणां पेतुः पुंनागेभ्यः शिलीमुखाः॥ ४-५७
Leaving the highly fragrant punnAga flowers honeybees swarmed on the temples, perfumed by the oozing ichor, of the elephants that are tethered to date-palm trees.

अवकाशं किलोदन्वान् रामायाभ्यर्थितो ददौ| अपरान्तमहीपालव्याजेन रघवे करम्॥ ४-५८
At one time when parashu-rAma entreated, they say, the western ocean gave a leeway to him by somewhat receding; but the same ocean now seems to have come forward when a sea of western kings have fretfully come forward to pay tribute to raghu.

मत्तेभरदनोत्कीर्णव्यक्तविक्रमलक्षणम्| त्रिकूटमेव तत्रोच्चैर्जयस्तम्भं चकार सः॥ ४-५९
Without building triumphal arches anew, raghu made Mt. trikUta alone as his lofty tower of victory since his ruttish elephants made dents on the slopes of that mountain with their tusks which, in effect, are the evident hallmarks of his valour.

पारसीकांस्ततो जेतुं प्रतस्थे स्थलवर्त्मना| इन्द्रियाख्यानिव रिपूंस्तत्त्वज्ञानेन संयमी॥ ४-६०
raghu then proceeded by a land route to conquer the pArasIka kings just as a self-controlled yogi possessing divine knowledge proceeds to conquer his own enemies, called his own senses. Persian kings according to commentator Sumantivijaya are Mlechha kings living to the west of Sindhu..

यवनीमुखपद्मानां सेहे मधुमदं न सः| बालातपमिवाब्जानामकालजलदोदयः ॥ ४-६१
As to how an untimely cloud removes morning sunlight from the faces of just blooming lotuses, raghu has also removed the blooming flush of wine from the lotus-like faces of yavana women when he encountered their men.

सङ्ग्रामस्तुमुलस्तस्य पाश्चात्यैरश्वसाधनैः| शार्ङ्गकूजितविज्ञेयप्रतियोधे रजस्यभूत्॥ ४-६२
Then a tumultuous battle ensued between raghu and the westerners who possess cavalry as their war paraphernalia in a canopy of massive dust wherein the opposing warriors could recognise each other just by the nature of the twanging of their bows. The poet means to imply that the battle waged so furiously that the fighting men could hardly distinguish each other; secondly, to hint at the great superiority in archery on the part of raghu's soldiers.

भल्लापवर्जितैस्तेषां शिरोभिः श्मश्रुलैर्महीम्| तस्तार सरघाव्याप्तैः स क्षौद्रपटलैरिव॥ ४-६३
raghu covered the ground with the bearded heads of westerners that are cut off with spear-like arrows, as if they are the sheaves of honeycombs swarming with bees.

Definitely Persians. Yavans = Persians in Raghuvamsha.

अपनीतशिरस्त्राणाः शेषास्तं शरणं ययुः| प्रणिपातप्रतीकारः संरम्भो हि महात्मनाम्॥ ४-६४
And the survivors sought the protection of raghu on removing their helmets, and the anger of the generous will be readily appeased by submission, isn't it!

विनयन्ते स्म तद्योधा मधुभिर्विजयश्रमम्| आस्तीर्णाजिनरत्नासु द्राक्षावलयभूमिषु॥ ४-६५
raghu's soldiers removed their fatigue of victory by means of wine, while sitting on excellent antelope skins spread on the grounds of grape-orchards.

ततः प्रतस्थे कौबेरीं भास्वानिव रघुर्दिशम्| शरैरुस्रैरिवोदीच्यानुद्धरिष्यन् रसानिव॥ ४-६६
As to how the sun squeezes water with his sharp arrows like sunrays in northern solstice, raghu proceeded to north to squeeze the kings of north with his sharp sunrays like arrows.

विनीताध्वश्रमास्तस्य सिन्धुतीरविचेष्टनैः| दुधुवुर्वाजिनः स्कन्धाम्ल्लग्नकुङ्कुमकेसरान्॥ ४-६७
raghu's horses having refreshed themselves by rolling on the banks of River sindhu shook off the filaments of saffron stuck on their shoulders. The river is Modern Amudarya. Based on following two verses. He is entering amu darya basin from south-west (Persia). based on saffron of Persia which was on the soldiers of raghu has been famous since ages.

तत्र हूणावरोधानां भर्तृषु व्यक्तविक्रमम्| कपोलपाटलादेशि बभूव रघुचेष्टितम्॥ ४-६८
The cheeks of huNa women glowed with embarrassment by the action of raghu in waging war with their husbands and that flush itself appeared as an index to raghu s valour.

काम्बोजाः समरे सोढुं तस्य वीर्यमनीश्वराः| गजालानपरिक्लिष्टैरक्षोटैः सार्धमानताः॥ ४-६९
Along with the walnut trees that are bending their treetops unable to withstand the pull and push of elephants tied to them with halters, the kings of kAmboja too bent their heads down before raghu in token of their submission unable to withstand his bravery in battle.

तेषां सदश्वभूयिष्ठास्तुङ्गा द्रविणराशयः| उपदा विविशुः शश्वन्नोत्सेकाः कोसलेश्वरम्॥ ४-७०
Large heaps of gold together with numerous thorough bred horses constantly reached the lord of kosala kingdom namely raghu, from those kAmboja kings, but pride never came near him.

ततो गौरीगुरुं शैलमारुरोहाश्वसाधनः| वर्धयन्निव तत्कूटानुद्धूतैर्धातुरेणुभिः॥ ४-७१
Then raghu ascended the Himalayan mountain, the father of gauri, or pAravati, using cavalry as main mode of operation, and in doing so the dust raised by the hooves of horses from the minerals of mountain soared high by which raghu appeared to have heightened Himalaya mountain.

शशंस तुल्यसत्त्वानां सैन्यघोषेऽप्यसंभ्रमम्| गुहाशयानां सिंहानां परिवृत्यावलोकितम्॥ ४-७२
Even if the army's noise is tumultuous, lions lying at length in caves gazed at the army from their prone position with their half-raised necks at that army which indicated the perfect indifference of reposing lions towards that army because they are equal to it in their courage

भूर्जेषु मर्मरीभूताः कीचकध्वनिहेतवः| गङ्गाशीकरिणो मार्गे मरुतस्तं सिषेविरे॥ ४-७३
The soft breeze causing murmuring rustle in the leavers of birch trees and melodious sounds in bamboo trees, and surcharged with the coolness of the sprays of River ganga has adored raghu on his way.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by SwamyG »

If Rama and Krishna are placed at date x and date y - how do the other avatars fit?
Pulikeshi: My 2 cents is that the history is not going to neatly fit in as per our itihasas and puranas. Vishnu did not become popular until the 8th or 9th century. He is mentioned less than 100 times in the Vedas as a form of Surya (IIRC). As he became prominent, legends and folk heroes who gained divinity began to be considered as his avatarm.

I am in all favor for all kinds of research; they are an interesting exercise and will throw more data and thoughts at us. But we must take care that we don't fall into the conundrum of the Western Civilization for whom the historicity of Jesus is paramount. For us our puranas and itihasas offer wisdom coupled with ethics, morals and history. If we traverse the road of research we should be ready to be disappointed if some results do not fit neatly into our current view of our past. Going for the trees, we should not miss the forest. So as long as our expectations are set, things should be hunky-dory.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Pulikeshi »

^ Not much disagreement... What we are discussing is who the historic characters were
that these myths are based on. I am aware of the growth of the Trimurthi and the
gradual fade out of the Vedic deities. However, without a keen look back at the past from
our perspective, how can one arrive at -thus it has been- Ithihaasa.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

SwamyG wrote:If Rama and Krishna are placed at date x and date y - how do the other avatars fit?
Pulikeshi: My 2 cents is that the history is not going to neatly fit in as per our itihasas and puranas. Vishnu did not become popular until the 8th or 9th century. He is mentioned less than 100 times in the Vedas as a form of Surya (IIRC). As he became prominent, legends and folk heroes who gained divinity began to be considered as his avatarm.

I am in all favor for all kinds of research; they are an interesting exercise and will throw more data and thoughts at us. But we must take care that we don't fall into the conundrum of the Western Civilization for whom the historicity of Jesus is paramount. For us our puranas and itihasas offer wisdom coupled with ethics, morals and history. If we traverse the road of research we should be ready to be disappointed if some results do not fit neatly into our current view of our past. Going for the trees, we should not miss the forest. So as long as our expectations are set, things should be hunky-dory.
You should read The Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky (I just started it recently).

It kinda puts all these things in perspective from western-perspective >> Easy for us, colonized minds.

She made an interesting point. If the ancestors of today's crocodiles, elephants, birds, and whales etc are humongous creatures that lived in 65-200 million years ago why is it so difficult for people to understand human ancestors also can be of large size and exist for million of years (7 root races)

That fits very well with Rama being 8ft tall and some of Asura/Deva/Gandharva's being 20-30 ft tall.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Abhi_G »

^^^
RamaY, Blavatsky's extrapolation is problematic.

Sometime back I saw something related to Hercules that Hercules was so and so feet tall. The archaeologists corroborated this kind of thinking to the possible finding of very long bones that were excavated in those regions of Greece. The ancient people did not have the idea of dinosaurs or even if they had, there is still a possibility of associating big femur bones belonging to some "super" human so and so feet tall. Check Blavatsky's timing. I am not sure if the archaeological findings of dinosaurs' bones were that advanced in her times. More advanced research has happened much later. Balvatsky may have been affected by too much exuberance with "industrial revolution science" finding such "huge" creatures - which is understandable. But it is also to be noted that there existed not only "huge' creatures but also "smaller" organisms. I would not be surprised if the smaller ones actually outnumbered the "huge" ones.
JMTs.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by SwamyG »

Rama garu: True that we ought to keep an open mind; but that means sometimes we will hit on data points that we might not like and should take it with open arms. It is my belief that if puts all kinds of sciences and research work together it is possible that we will not the destination some of us might want to reach. Should it matter if Rama was Ajanubahu? We still are trapped in the TFTA mode propagated by the Western thought. What Ramayanam (and others) means to us should no way be diminished if we find Rama was not born in Ayodhya or was a dark skinned pygmy, no?

My view does not automatically mean that I am opposed to research; in fact I like more research and willing to donate few dollars here and there for such causes. But while doing such research, we should not forget the value and meaning of these itihasas and puranas.

As usual just my 2 cents; and here is a good link I am sure you will enjoy: http://www.kamakoti.org/newlayout/templ ... du/Puranas
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

Abhi_G garu

The time lines here are not thought of by any western historian before. Ms.B got these extrapolations after getting exposed to Vedas.

Historians are yet to accept the timescales going into "hundreds-of-thousands" years. My post is talking about millions and tens-of-millions years.

I am yet to accept Rama's dating as some 5000-10000BC. Until proven I prefer the original date based on our Yuga system which shows Ramayana to be a ~27+ million years old event.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Abhi_G »

^^^
RamaY, by "timeline" I meant Blavatsky's contemporary lifetime (late 1800s). In her times reaearch about dinosaurs may not have been as advanced as it is now. The research may outshine what it is now in the future to come...who knows!
It shows that we are now obsessed with timeline in gnan and dhyan. Not a bad thing though! :wink:
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Carl_T »

SwamyG wrote:
I am in all favor for all kinds of research; they are an interesting exercise and will throw more data and thoughts at us. But we must take care that we don't fall into the conundrum of the Western Civilization for whom the historicity of Jesus is paramount. For us our puranas and itihasas offer wisdom coupled with ethics, morals and history. If we traverse the road of research we should be ready to be disappointed if some results do not fit neatly into our current view of our past. Going for the trees, we should not miss the forest. So as long as our expectations are set, things should be hunky-dory.
Jesus is taken as a historical, but some scholars have consistently tried to argue he was a mythical figure. Most scholars today make a distinction between the actual figure and the mythical one. Christian historians don't believe the historical figure actually walked on water...

A similar approach is probably worthwhile, digging out the historical figures from the epics.
Last edited by Carl_T on 11 Jun 2010 21:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

SwamyG garu,

Understanding any historical text "selectively" is not helpful IMHO.

Like mentioned earlier the whole lunar/solar calendar system repeats every so often (one such cycle is ~27,000 years long involving Earth's precision of equinox). Tilak dated Vedas to be ~3000 years old, where as another scholar in BHU took it further to ~15,000 years old and so on. Sri Kota Venkatachalam garu talks about it.

Valmeeki presents us Rama. If we accept his existence (for spiritual, religious, or historic reasons) then we must accept his description in its entirety.

Valmeeki, Vyasa etc or not just poets. They are Rishis (Drashta = one that can see the truth). Their contributions are holistic.

JMT.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

Blavatsky talks in meta-physical realm. So we should see her from that perspective only. Such an analysis will result in both tangible and intangible observations.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Carl_T »

RamaY wrote: You should read The Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky (I just started it recently).

It kinda puts all these things in perspective from western-perspective >> Easy for us, colonized minds.

She made an interesting point. If the ancestors of today's crocodiles, elephants, birds, and whales etc are humongous creatures that lived in 65-200 million years ago why is it so difficult for people to understand human ancestors also can be of large size and exist for million of years (7 root races)

That fits very well with Rama being 8ft tall and some of Asura/Deva/Gandharva's being 20-30 ft tall.
This is not well reasoned, which of our ancestors was a huge animal that lived millions of years? Rather humans have been getting consistently larger. Regarding birds, the archeopteryx was no more than 2 feet in length.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Carl_T »

Pulikeshi wrote:^ Not much disagreement... What we are discussing is who the historic characters were
that these myths are based on. I am aware of the growth of the Trimurthi and the
gradual fade out of the Vedic deities.
However, without a keen look back at the past from
our perspective, how can one arrive at -thus it has been- Ithihaasa.
Btw, what is your opinion of the reason behind this shift?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Abhi_G »

Carl_T wrote:
Rather humans have been getting consistently larger. Regarding birds, the archeopteryx was no more than 2 feet in length.
What do you mean by "consistent"? Any references?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Carl_T »

deleted. :)
Last edited by Carl_T on 11 Jun 2010 22:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Carl_T »

So from wikipedia in chronological order.

genus: Australopithecus 4-4.5 ft. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australopithecus
genus: Paranthropus 4.26 to 4.59 feet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranthropus
Homo Habilis 4 feet 3 inches http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_habilis
Homo Erectus 5'10
Homo ergaster 6'1
Homo Heidelbergensis 6 ft.
Homo Floriensis 3.5 ft.

Granted a lot of these may be estimates and problematic due to tiny sample sizes.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by SwamyG »

Rama gaaru: Has anybody ever complained that you are getting dogmatic :mrgreen: ? We are not the people who "believe" in "the book" {or for that matter a set of books}. I agree the contributions are holistic, that is why I say cherry-picking is quite appropriate in Indic context. For example, it does not matter if Srilanka is the Lanka of those years or if boulders floated on water. The wisdom I gain from the value provided by a small squirrel in helping the mighty Sugriva army in building the bridge teaches me a whole lot of what I can do on this earth in my own small way. Could the squirrel have talked? I don't care.

my 3 cents.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

A discourse on our epics and literature

http://www.giirvaani.net/

Click on the image to go to the discourse.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

Sanskrit documents with audio files:

http://sanskritdocuments.org/links5_audio.html
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Pulikeshi »

^ between myth, history and politics lies at the human heart a desire to know what was...
There is in our genetic code a fundamental flaw - we are all suckers for stories.
This inherent 'narrative bias' suffered by the human brain is nearly universal.

So, yes, it is not important if squirrels talked, or is these lowly insignificant life forms have
value to us, etc. What is important to us why our ancestors survived and how we came about.
As Singbe Pieh (Amistaad saga) says, "I am the whole reason they existed at all!"
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