West Asia News and Discussions

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 06 Jun 2010 10:54

The so-called "ally"

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/world/ ... story.html

Heh, Turkey is Israel's "ally" in the same way that Pak is Unkil's "ally"
With friends like this, who needs enemies?

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 06 Jun 2010 11:21

Here's NYT's Friday editorial entitled "Turkey's Fury"

Turkey’s Fury

Turkey is understandably furious about Israel’s disastrous attack on the Turkish-flagged aid ship that tried to run the Gaza blockade. Eight Turks and a Turkish-American died. Turkey’s demands for the release of detained activists (all are now free) and for an international investigation (Israel is balking ) are reasonable.

But Turkish officials have let their anger and rhetoric go way too far. Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey has called for Israel to be punished for state terrorism. President Abdullah Gul said, “Turkey will never forgive this attack.” Turkey, Israel and their shared ally, the United States, need to work to cool things down. Turkey was the first Muslim nation to recognize Israel, and both countries have benefited from the relationship. Bilateral trade reached $2.5 billion in 2009. As a moderate, secular democracy and NATO member, Turkey has a strong interest in a stable Middle East.

Things have deteriorated sharply since early 2009 when Mr. Erdogan publicly confronted the Israeli president, Shimon Peres, on the subject of Gaza. His new even fiercer denunciations are playing well at home and in the wider Muslim world. But Mr. Erdogan may find it hard to walk things back when he needs to — and he will.

The Palestinians can certainly use articulate defenders. And Israel deserves to be criticized for the flotilla disaster. But gratuitously stoking anti-Israeli sentiment is irresponsible and dangerous.

Mr. Erdogan is to be applauded for his attempts to broker secret negotiations between Israel’s previous government and Syria. His more recent effort, with Brazil, to cut a nuclear deal with Iran was disturbingly naïve. Turkey needs to keep working diplomatically to end the blockade. Israel has now indicated a willingness to modify the siege; it needs to end it altogether. If Turkey is truly committed to the rights of the Palestinians, it should be pressing other Muslim countries to seriously encourage an Israeli-Palestinian peace deal — the best way to up the pressure on Israel.

Israel also has a strong interest in repairing relations with Turkey. That is yet another reason why it should support a credible, independent international investigation. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu still doesn’t get this. Washington needs to help him understand all that is at stake.

Understandably, the Atlanticists and their mouthpieces like NYT are quite perturbed at this unexpected hyper-escalation by Islamists whom they've tacitly supported in the past - not unlike 9/11.
And make no mistake, this sea change by Turkey is then going to have a geopolitical impact on the scale of 9/11, and it's something that the Atlanticists are not going to be able to easily fast-talk their way past merely by reflexively branding Netanyahu another Bush cowboy clone. Clearly the Israelis have their own backs to the wall, and would naturally come out swinging sooner rather than later.

In the absence of a Turkish military clipping Erdogan's wings, that country will now emerge as Israel's deadliest enemy. Theirs is not just another scoff at Israel from a Muslim country. The domestic political rivalry between Turkey's Islamists and its losing Ataturkists will see the ascendant Islamists channeling popular sentiments over Palestine into a political spearhead to achieve advantage over their internal political enemies.

The sooner Israelis wake up to this fact, the better.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 06 Jun 2010 12:14

Can Ataturkists make a political comeback?

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/06/04/who- ... urkey.html

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 06 Jun 2010 13:57

Its illegal because a democratically elected government was voted into power by the people of gaza and israel has stopped food/aid completely entering(only 20% of the required aid is allowed in now I think, poverty rates have tripled since the start of it) the Gaza strip, just because of that reason. Besides, CNN has confirmed to the whole world who started the war against Hamas anyway, so we don't need to quote from any arab sources.

Exactly, right comparision would be to a situation that can happen in India. If at some point of time, Abhinav Bharat is able to gather majority seats in Loksabha and all other countries in the world sanction India account of that, is that going to be right?

if you are supporting democracy, you have to do it every time. We did the same when we respected the verdict of people for division in 1947. We thought they would never press with it, but thats different discussion

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 06 Jun 2010 14:26

symontk wrote:if you are supporting democracy, you have to do it every time. We did the same when we respected the verdict of people for division in 1947. We thought they would never press with it, but thats different discussion

may I ask why??

Why shouldnt I support a dictator if it supports my interests? Why the maryada Purushottam Ram Syndrome. Why the takleef? Those gazans/hamas havent ever supported India's position on Kashmir. Why should we support them?

Why does it matter to India if Israel blockades gaza, make some "Oh! we urge both sides to exercise restraint" and shove that document into the trash can.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 06 Jun 2010 14:39

^^ Please find me a statement where HAMAS never supported India's position on Kashmir. Its new to me. I didn't realise they had much foreign policy.

Now, speaking, didn't Pakistani soldiers actually attack Palestinians in Jordan, and ever since then PLO has supported Indian position on Kashmir?

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 06 Jun 2010 15:01

shyamd wrote:^^ Please find me a statement where HAMAS never supported India's position on Kashmir. Its new to me.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-113577035.html

That(Palestine, Fatah, Hamas) has been their consistent position on Kashmir notwithstanding our love fest with Arafat

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Lashkar-H ... 96000.aspx

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_ ... s_ch_e.htm

A Hamas poster entitled “ Chechnya , Afghanistan , the Balkans, Kashmir, Palestine , Lebanon .” It was taken from a propaganda CD produced by Hamas and distributed, in our assessment, to institutions, primarily “educational” institutions, in the PA. The IDF found it in two places : the first, at Hebron University

so please spare me if I dont share a tear for them or their democracy.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 06 Jun 2010 16:06

Surprising though it may seem, it is inevitable that Turkey slinks gradually towards its religious moorings. But it will be a slowish process, and this is not necessarily disadvantageous to India.

Why is Turkey getting involved in a situation that can distinctly weaken its options? Beyond the temporary good press in the Middle East, if that, it will get no special joy from the Arabs. Nor will it endear itself to the Americans, but this relationship has been fraying at the edges for various reasons anyways.

Much of it is a miscalculation by Erdogan and his party, that Turkey is stronger than it actually is. It is also the rather "disturbingly naive" (accurately phrased in NYT, IMO) tendency to assume that because it is a regional power of sorts, it can flex its muscles in a more obvious way than it has in the past - due to the insipid condition of much of its neighbours at the moment. But it maybe only a miscalculation as far as the external policy issues are concerned, and not with the internal situation in Turkey. One could interpret it as another sly move by Erdogan to distance the people from the military establishment through populist rhetoric which resonates with the general public. Such short term populism has a way of having long-term negative impacts. Look at the Pakisatan.

Where are Turkey's generals and secular parties? Perhaps they need to be reminded that Hamas will be the first to denounce them and theirs, should they get a larger following in the area...

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 06 Jun 2010 16:14

Being honest with you, Kashmir has just become a populist slogan all over. That is all. And I blame ourselves for not educating the media and the wider world about our position on Kashmir and about what is going on there.

Was speaking to one of those muslim brotherhood types - they don't have a clue about whats going on in Kashmir. After some explaining, they are like.... "why didn't you explain this to us before". One of them said, he wants me to explain that to the imam of his mosque - so that they don't repeat propagandist lies.

-----------
Yes, our support to Palestine hasn't been matched by reciprocation from the Palestinians - but we have got a lot from our relationship with Israel which is why I say that we should maintain a good relationship with Israel - We need Israel and they need us(and our money) too.

Specifically Hamas has met TSPians probably because of the Islamic banner and that they are desperate for money due to the sanctions and blockades imposed by Israel/Egypt/US. So remember and understand the context.

But coming back to Israel vs Palestine - thats a different story altogether. its your choice if you don't want to spare a tear for them.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 06 Jun 2010 16:16

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php? ... 2010-06-04

this gullen has immense following it appears amongst turks and in particular the AKP types. He himself is advising caution.

...went on to criticize the group for failing to obtain Israel's consent before setting out on their aid mission. Gülen said that when a charity organization linked with his own movement wanted to help Gazans, he insisted they get Israel's permission. He added that assigning blame over the matter was best left to the United Nations

There is hope for Turkey if guys like this have influence

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 06 Jun 2010 16:51

The true winners are the Iranians -

We need to be on guard - never know when the smart asses might try and pay us back for our nuclear vote

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 06 Jun 2010 17:00

^^ Suryaji, wouldn't you say that the people of Gaza and the protestors are the true winners, since the Rafah crossing is now open to medicine, aid and trade? Hence, the blockade has now been broken!

Iran have already paid us back with some small protests in J&K. Iran knows full well that India had to vote against Iran to get the Indo-US nuke deal, so don't demonise them. In fact, Indo-Iranian relations is getting back to full swing, MoD delegation going to Tehran, Iranian and Indian ministers have been meeting regularly over Af-Pak. We have had intel agreements to prevent terror and monitor Af-Pak - Iran provided us with some intelligence on LeT activity. India has resumed its economic trade with Iran in a massive way. Things are getting back to usual with Iran.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 06 Jun 2010 17:08

Surya wrote:The true winners are the Iranians -

We need to be on guard - never know when the smart asses might try and pay us back for our nuclear vote

Please explain how you arrived at this conclusion. I am a tubelight in certain areas.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 06 Jun 2010 18:18

shyamd wrote:Indo-Iranian relations is getting back to full swing, MoD delegation going to Tehran, Iranian and Indian ministers have been meeting regularly over Af-Pak.

That is true...now with Medevdev also singing pro-sanction songs, Iran will increasingly acknowledges... that GOI acted in its best interest and under the circs..in any case that would not stop cooperation in Af-Pak aspects where there is broad convergence of interests

Re ME/Turkey, with Turkey throwing hat in ring for leadership of ummah, there are now several contenders - Iran, KSA as custodian of holy mosques if not the religion itself, and now Turkey. That does not even count delusional clowns like TSP and wannabe's like Malaysia who think the crown is theirs for the taking if only they can become more 'Arab'.

Everyone thinks the best way to get there is to move away from secularism and barbarianise themselves..and slowly become purified... That also means singing right tune on Palestine the current litmus test for 'islamic leadership'. But it only forces them to light a fire they cannot put off - that of ultimate purity of Talibanic kind.

All this means India will have tons of chances to fish in these muddied waters to push its own cause if only there is will to do so. And risks of course..

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 06 Jun 2010 18:23

It is strange how easy it is to peddle conspiracy theories in Islamic world, even in so-called moderate, intelligent ones. And the more weird they are, the more they get accepted as true.

Now turkish media is trying to peddle the theory that Israel 'coordinated' the raid by PKK that killed 6 solidiers and was on same day as Gaza ship saga.

This flotilla was sponsored by a Turrkish organisation, if not govt itself and its timing as well as as strategy decided by IHH/Ankara. They also systematically refused all of Israel's options to berth and unload elsewhere. Only a brain clogged with 7th century crap and blinded with hatred can propound and accept a theory that it was Israel that asked them to do all this and somehow timed a raid by PKK against some soldiers..

...it must be a crude strategy to break Israel-Turkish military ties.

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 06 Jun 2010 20:59

Despite his huge election victory, Obama has proven to be a political light weight. He due to clay feet syndrome is back-tracking on a lot of his campaign promises. Romantics and intellectuals usually get away with most of their deeds. Due to this success they assume their own imortality and think they are superior to most mortals. They are unprepared for opposiiton. And when hit with opposition, they either crumble or take extreme meassures.

Obama is seen crumbling in the BP and immigration issues and seems to be resorting to extreme meassures against terrorism (increased drone attacks and expanding spec-ops) - actions which he would have opposed tooth and nail is they were actions of others. In this situaiton, I will not be surprised if he gives a nod here and a wink there and walla we find a mango crate under Tayib Erdogan's seat in one of his travels. Even the FSB might be willing to do the deed in exchange for certain Chechens boarding in DC with the blessing of State Department. Just saying.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 06 Jun 2010 21:16

symontk wrote:
Its illegal because a democratically elected government was voted into power by the people of gaza and israel has stopped food/aid completely entering(only 20% of the required aid is allowed in now I think, poverty rates have tripled since the start of it) the Gaza strip, just because of that reason. Besides, CNN has confirmed to the whole world who started the war against Hamas anyway, so we don't need to quote from any arab sources.
Exactly, right comparision would be to a situation that can happen in India. If at some point of time, Abhinav Bharat is able to gather majority seats in Loksabha and all other countries in the world sanction India account of that, is that going to be right?

if you are supporting democracy, you have to do it every time. We did the same when we respected the verdict of people for division in 1947. We thought they would never press with it, but thats different discussion

This is not the reason why Israel is blockading Gaza. They are blockading Gaza because Hamas is firing rockets from there at Israel. If Hamas wants to make everybody in Gaza stand on their heads all day, then that's their own business, and Israel has nothing to say about that. But if the Hamas rule means they fire rockets into Israel all the time, then certainly Israel is going to react - and the reaction is a blockade.

Blockade is a legitimate response to these types of military attacks.

If Pak is going to bombard India with ballistic missiles or human missiles, then India has a right to react. Islamists just can't get away with firing missiles at someone while whistling innocently, and then crying foul when that someone responds back.

Just because India behaves spinelessly ("Vee vill not bow too terrorism! Rewind the tape! Vee vill not bow too terrorism! Rewind the tape! Vee vill not bow too terrorism! This is a recording, a recording, a recording...<click>") doesn't mean that others follow the same aberrant behavior as India. (Well, maybe South Korea is going to learn how to tread the Indian path, while losing another boatload of sailors every month) But most countries aren't stupid enough to fight with one arm tied behind the back - our own poor example notwithstanding.

If Gaza is firing missiles at Israel, then Gaza can be blockaded - it's as simple as that.

Nobody has blockaded Gazans because of whom they voted for. The blockade has been imposed because of what Gaza's Hamas govt has been doing - ie. firing missiles at Israel.

The false argument is being put forth that in order to accept coexistence with Hamas, that you must accept being fired upon by missiles all the time. Sorry, but this is the typical Islamist dishonesty that asserts such fake arguments. They want the right to punch others while not being punched back. Sorry, but if you punch somebody else and they punch you back, then don't be crying like a victim while pointing frantically at your own bleeding nose.

Hamas makes no apologies for its missiles routinely fired on Israel, and they loudly claim responsibility for these attacks, just as Taliban does for everything under the sun. They stubbornly insist that it is their right to do so as an "act of resistance". Well sorry, but "resistance" is another word for warfare, and in war you'd better expect that the other side is going to fight back. You can't demand the benefits of peace while you are yourself waging war.

This is Islamist dishonesty, and they'll play this game with anyone, including India.

Gazans can vote for anyone whom they damn well please to. But they must accept the consequences of their choices. If those whom they vote into power are playing these games of aggression, then they are liable for the consequences.

If Pak nukes us tomorrow, will we accept any pleas from the Pak people that "vee are innoshent onlee! Do not punish us in retaliation for what our generals have done!"

Nope, sorry. You don't want to be associated with their aggression - then get the hell out of there.

Only the biggest cowards go out of their way to hide behind women and children. And Islamists run for this cover every time. Which only proves that not only are they the world's worst fighters, but they are the world's worst ethicists.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 06 Jun 2010 21:32

asprinzl wrote:Despite his huge election victory, Obama has proven to be a political light weight. He due to clay feet syndrome is back-tracking on a lot of his campaign promises. Romantics and intellectuals usually get away with most of their deeds. Due to this success they assume their own imortality and think they are superior to most mortals. They are unprepared for opposiiton. And when hit with opposition, they either crumble or take extreme meassures.

Obama is seen crumbling in the BP and immigration issues and seems to be resorting to extreme meassures against terrorism (increased drone attacks and expanding spec-ops) - actions which he would have opposed tooth and nail is they were actions of others. In this situaiton, I will not be surprised if he gives a nod here and a wink there and walla we find a mango crate under Tayib Erdogan's seat in one of his travels. Even the FSB might be willing to do the deed in exchange for certain Chechens boarding in DC with the blessing of State Department. Just saying.

Yes, it might be possible, if Washington and Moscow come to an agreement behind the scenes, as they did with Zia. When Zia became too big for his britches and wanted to start his own independent global pan-Islamist bloc, both superpowers immediately understood that it was time for Zia to disappear - and so he did.

Given that Erdogan is similarly moving to upset the international applecart, he could become a focal point of agreement between the major powers. And as is well known, Turkey has no shortage of enemies - Kurds, Greeks, Armenians, etc. If Turkey is going to pull itself out from behind the Ataturkist cover, then it could quickly end up bullet-riddled.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 06 Jun 2010 22:05

Oh yes, no one sanctioned Gaza beacuse of the election.

Also there is no reason to change your principles just because you need to respond. You can do several things apart from attacking another country even in the scenario of 26/11. From my understanding, the restraint shown by India after 26/11 has now greater impact than a show of force.

May be Israel feels that its survival is guranteed. All other countries cannot think in the same way.

Sorry if I brought any OT discussion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinia ... tion,_2006
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006%E2%80 ... _Authority

The 2006–2007 economic sanctions against the Palestinian National Authority were imposed by Israel and the Quartet on the Middle East against the Palestinian National Authority and the Palestinian territories.[5]

Israel and the Quartet have said that sanctions would be lifted only when the Palestinian government has met the following demands:

Renunciation of violence,
Recognition of Israel by the Hamas government (as had the PLO), and
Acceptance of previous agreements between Israel and the Palestinian National Authority.
The international sanctions were terminated in June 2007 following the Battle of Gaza, while at the same time a new and more severe blockade of the Gaza Strip was initiated.

The sanctions consist of (1) withholding of tax revenues collected in the Palestinian territories by Israel[2], (2) cutoff of international aid to the Palestinian National Authority from the Quartet countries, (3) restrictions by Israel of movement within the Palestinian territories and of goods moving in and out, and (4) U.S. banking restrictions.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 06 Jun 2010 23:10

I personally don't feel that Pakistan is one bit impressed by our show of "restraint" - on the contrary, they know that our "restraint" is their doing, by virtue of their deterrent shield. That's why the Israelis are smart enough to be acting ahead of Iran's nuclearization, rather than living haplessly in the shadow of it.

Yes, our Prime Minister has shown he can do several things apart from attacking in response to 26/11. He has shown he can say, "Vee vill not bow to terrorism!"
He has shown he can say this again several times. What benefit this actually delivers to the Indian people is not known, however.

If Hamas wants to coexist alongside of Israel, and to avoid hostile actions from it, then it must cease hostile acts of war against it. That's pretty simple, really. But to disingenuously pretend that it can keep launching rockets at Israel while Israel must not do anything back, is laughable.

If someone was launching rockets at me and my loved ones, then I would blockade them without hesitation, and I wouldn't care about what the world thinks of me, because I have myself and my loved ones to protect. But if I only care about what the Muslim world thinks of me, and don't care too much about myself or my loved ones, then I might forget about protecting ourselves, and instead trumpet loud ineffectual statements like "Vee vill not bow to terrorism! Let it be known! Let the trumpets play!"

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 06 Jun 2010 23:37

Pope Decries Situation of Christians in MiddleEast

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 07 Jun 2010 01:32

Sanjay M wrote: This is not the reason why Israel is blockading Gaza. They are blockading Gaza because Hamas is firing rockets from there at Israel. If Hamas wants to make everybody in Gaza stand on their heads all day, then that's their own business, and Israel has nothing to say about that. But if the Hamas rule means they fire rockets into Israel all the time, then certainly Israel is going to react - and the reaction is a blockade.

Thanks Symontk for responding to these blatant lies. Being honest with you, following Israeli papers, I also thought in the same lines, until I actually read into it and spoke to a few people who were on the ground.

Blockade is a legitimate response to these types of military attacks.

Right, but it is not correct when you are a democratic winner of elections.
Who Really started it. Here is the CNN video who cross checked the facts with other news orgs FYI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDBiycEz12s

If Gaza is firing missiles at Israel, then Gaza can be blockaded - it's as simple as that.

If that was only what happened, it would be fair enough.

Nobody has blockaded Gazans because of whom they voted for. The blockade has been imposed because of what Gaza's Hamas govt has been doing - ie. firing missiles at Israel.

Check your facts my friend. You are being mislead by propaganda.

The false argument is being put forth that in order to accept coexistence with Hamas, that you must accept being fired upon by missiles all the time. Sorry, but this is the typical Islamist dishonesty that asserts such fake arguments. They want the right to punch others while not being punched back. Sorry, but if you punch somebody else and they punch you back, then don't be crying like a victim while pointing frantically at your own bleeding nose.

Lol! Funnily enough, Israel broke the ceasefire first, and ACTUALLY Hamas showed restraint and didn't even respond. Only after Israel broke it again, did hamas respond. And actually, Israel agreed to lift the blockade in that agreement, which it never kept but yet Hamas chose to show restraint.

If Pak nukes us tomorrow, will we accept any pleas from the Pak people that "vee are innoshent onlee! Do not punish us in retaliation for what our generals have done!"

So its okay for us to go bomb cities left right and centre, including schools etc?

Nope, sorry. You don't want to be associated with their aggression - then get the hell out of there.

If only people could do that, thanks to the west and Israel, innocent civilians couldn't even leave thanks to the blockade.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 07 Jun 2010 01:35

Shyamd - you are hinting at a lot of things in bits and pieces, if you are inclined to do so, can you write them up all in one, a refutation of sorts to press your point?

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 07 Jun 2010 01:40

Sanjay M wrote:I personally don't feel that Pakistan is one bit impressed by our show of "restraint" - on the contrary, they know that our "restraint" is their doing, by virtue of their deterrent shield. That's why the Israelis are smart enough to be acting ahead of Iran's nuclearization, rather than living haplessly in the shadow of it.

Yes, our Prime Minister has shown he can do several things apart from attacking in response to 26/11. He has shown he can say, "Vee vill not bow to terrorism!"
He has shown he can say this again several times. What benefit this actually delivers to the Indian people is not known, however.

Why give someone an excuse to unify TSP? What happened after 26/11 was a totally different story - it was a strategic game. We didn't hit back despite making all the preparations to obliterate our enemy for strategic reasons.

If Hamas wants to coexist alongside of Israel, and to avoid hostile actions from it, then it must cease hostile acts of war against it. That's pretty simple, really. But to disingenuously pretend that it can keep launching rockets at Israel while Israel must not do anything back, is laughable.

Did Israel even give Hamas a chance?? This is a fact that is widely accepted by everyone, even the anti-Hamas guys. Hamas's success in Gaza is the biggest threat to the entire West Asia region as it proves what honest workers can do for the place - do you understand that the bureaucracy has become honest and for a point in time, there weren't even drugs like cocaine etc in the country - Can any other nation say that? They completely cleaned everything up.

If someone was launching rockets at me and my loved ones, then I would blockade them without hesitation, and I wouldn't care about what the world thinks of me, because I have myself and my loved ones to protect.

Dude, did you miss what Symontk said? Israel imposed sanctions because HAMAS came to power in a democratically held election!

I repost again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006%E2%80 ... _Authority

Quote:
The 2006–2007 economic sanctions against the Palestinian National Authority were imposed by Israel and the Quartet on the Middle East against the Palestinian National Authority and the Palestinian territories.[5]

Israel and the Quartet have said that sanctions would be lifted only when the Palestinian government has met the following demands:

Renunciation of violence,
Recognition of Israel by the Hamas government (as had the PLO), and
Acceptance of previous agreements between Israel and the Palestinian National Authority.
The international sanctions were terminated in June 2007 following the Battle of Gaza, while at the same time a new and more severe blockade of the Gaza Strip was initiated.

The sanctions consist of (1) withholding of tax revenues collected in the Palestinian territories by Israel[2], (2) cutoff of international aid to the Palestinian National Authority from the Quartet countries, (3) restrictions by Israel of movement within the Palestinian territories and of goods moving in and out, and (4) U.S. banking restrictions.

Added Later:
Carl_T: sorry mate. Any bits you want me to explain a bit more?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Jun 2010 01:54

symontk wrote
Exactly, right comparision would be to a situation that can happen in India. If at some point of time, Abhinav Bharat is able to gather majority seats in Loksabha and all other countries in the world sanction India account of that, is that going to be right?

if you are supporting democracy, you have to do it every time. We did the same when we respected the verdict of people for division in 1947. We thought they would never press with it, but thats different discussion

wondering whether it is a Freudian slip about Abhinav Bharat!

Can you please explain why according to you a "right comparison" is between Hamas under Israel and Abhinav Bharat under India? I just now went back over the declared manifestos of Hamas, what is known about the supposed aims of Abhinav Bharat, and the declared "manifestos" of the Indian Mujahideen and SIMI.

Both Hamas and IM/SIMI have declared war against the current state under which they live. AB has not. Both Hamas and IM/SIMI do not recognize the right of the majority community to dominate the current state, and want all non-Muslims to be subject to Islamic rule. I am not even going into other aspects of comparison. Is there any specific reason why corresponding Islamic groups, and when a much better and obvious comparison would be any of the separatist parties engaged in terrorism against the Indian state in J&K - was omitted?

Can you also please explain who respected which "people's verdict" (and if there was such a "people's verdict" ) if you mean the Partition of India in 1947? As far as I know the specific act was not given to a referendum involving universal adult franchise. This perhaps can be answered in the "Partition" thread?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Jun 2010 02:09

Err....., regarding the "sanctions against PNA", as far as I know the international sanction has been lifted from the West Bank following the "Battle of Gaza", and it is the Gaza part which is under sanction, because here Hamas dominates. Hamas has refused to formally give up military overthrow of the state of Israel, and offered only a temporary truce or "Hudna" (Hudna was offered by the founding father of Islam to Jewish settlements typically until he could gather enough strength to run a ghazwa on it - and therefore Israel has no reason to trust it). Initially, Hamas condemned (and the primary official reason given to fight Fatah) PLO and the PNA because PNA was based on a recognition of the two-state premise.

So election of Hamas to majority implies - given no official change about existence of Israel - that Gaza residents at least do not recopgnize the right of Israel to exist and do not subscribe to the foundational principle of the PNA. Israel and the Quartet has the right to take the return of Hamas electorally as a declaration of war on Israel and therefore itself an act against the PNA.

Why a popularly elected representative power in Gaza had to resort to a battle against fellow "Palestinians" to take "control" but still cannot "control" rocket or mortar attacks into Israel from Gaza? actually given the claim that all artillery/projectile ammunition in Gaza could be made with household items like soap etc, it would be most interesting to know these cheap techniques to make mortars and rockets out of soap etc. It can cut our defense industry costs.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 07 Jun 2010 02:11

Jews Out Of Israel
Jews must go back to Polan, Germany ...
[youtube]RQcQdWBqt14&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 07 Jun 2010 06:03

brihaspati wrote:Err....., regarding the "sanctions against PNA", as far as I know the international sanction has been lifted from the West Bank following the "Battle of Gaza", and it is the Gaza part which is under sanction, because here Hamas dominates.

Why was it lifted after the war in Gaza? It is because, the west wants to show the palestinian people that Fatah is a better option - in a way arm twisting people's opinions. Number 2 reason is that Fatah, sold themselves to the Israeli's/US by working with the Israeli's to launch the attack against Hamas. They are nothing but traitors and they were exposed after Hamas take over of Gaza, now they are exposed again after the war in Gaza and this time even pro-Fatah people have changed camp to Hamas side. People are disgusted by the way Fatah acted.

Here you have it from the horse's mouth:
Link

Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.

Hamas has refused to formally give up military overthrow of the state of Israel, and offered only a temporary truce or "Hudna" (Hudna was offered by the founding father of Islam to Jewish settlements typically until he could gather enough strength to run a ghazwa on it - and therefore Israel has no reason to trust it). Initially, Hamas condemned (and the primary official reason given to fight Fatah) PLO and the PNA because PNA was based on a recognition of the two-state premise.

Lol! Hudna was not agreed to by both side but a Tahdia or "quietening" of hostilities - which they did agree to - which was brokered by Egypt. During this period, were rockets sent over into Israel? yes some, but you do know that the people who sent those rockets - I believe they were Islamic Jihad guys, were caught and thrashed the hell out of - even Debka came out and told that story. Hamas said anyone who is caught sending rockets will meet the same fate as the IJ guys who launched those rockets. I can tell you that Hamas is way more successful in controlling the various groups than PNA has EVER been! Just look back at our discussions on this very topic in the Middle East Thread prior to the war. And you do know that Israel broke the ceasefire several times by firing at farmers, children etc during that period. I posted a CNN link above explaining who started the war against Hamas, here I am reposting it again for your benefit.

CNN Confirms who broke the ceasefire first
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDBiycEz12s

[youtube]v=uDBiycEz12s][/youtube]

Why a popularly elected representative power in Gaza had to resort to a battle against fellow "Palestinians" to take "control" but still cannot "control" rocket or mortar attacks into Israel from Gaza?

Firstly, you do know rocket fire decreased 98% in the four and a half months between 18 June and 4 November when compared to the four and a half months preceding the ceasefire, since over 1,894 rockets were fired into Israel from 1 February to 18 June and just 37 were fired between 18 June and the beginning of November. That is WAAY better than whatever Fatah could manage when they were in power.

Secondly, The takeover from Fatah was necessary since Fatah refused to give control of the Palestinian police force - there are loads of internal politics reasons too which never make it to the papers (that was made clear once Hamas raided it and found that Israeli's were also working there, they had joint intelligence stations with Israeli's and had equipment to control UAVs etc - further exposing Fatah who are just under the control of Israeli's). You do know that Hamas military wing was a lot smaller in number and was still able to take over despite Fatah receiving Israeli/US support etc. The takeover completely destroyed entire intel set up in Gaza according to my Hamas source. This is why Israel agreed to the truce in order to plan an attack of Gaza - this was confirmed by the Hindu paper which said the planning for Cast Lead started the day Hamas and Israel agreed the ceasefire. During this period, Israel had to completely rebuild their intel set up. You can read up further on it, by looking at my previous posts on the subject.

actually given the claim that all artillery/projectile ammunition in Gaza could be made with household items like soap etc, it would be most interesting to know these cheap techniques to make mortars and rockets out of soap etc. It can cut our defense industry costs.

Lol! You are desperate, Now you are twisting my words:
I said:

So what does your average Gaza suicide terrorist use for equipment - well rockets are made from home made stuff - bits of steel etc. The bombs themselves are made from household stuff like soap.

I said the bombs are made from household material such as soap - its well known. The rocckets are just made from bits of steel scrap etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_roc ... ifications

The aim of the Qassam rocket design appears to be ease and speed of manufacture, using common tools and components. To this end, the rockets are propelled by a solid mixture of sugar and potassium nitrate, a widely available fertilizer. The warhead is filled with smuggled or scavenged TNT and urea nitrate, another common fertilizer

The rocket consists of a steel cylinder, containing a rectangular block of the propellant. A steel plate which forms and supports the nozzles is spot-welded to the base of the cylinder. The warhead consists of a simple metal shell surrounding the explosives, and is triggered by a fuze constructed using a simple firearm cartridge, a spring and a nail.

You sound very desperate my friend. Look forward to hearing the next lie from your Israeli brainwashed mind.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 07 Jun 2010 06:29

shyamd wrote:Why give someone an excuse to unify TSP? What happened after 26/11 was a totally different story - it was a strategic game. We didn't hit back despite making all the preparations to obliterate our enemy for strategic reasons.

Heh, "why give someone an excuse to unify TSP"?
What, like they already don't use us as their whipping boy to rally for unity?
Do you even read any Paki papers, man??

To hear you tell it, we'd better zip our lips, lest we antagonize them into adopting a "2-nation theory"

Did Israel even give Hamas a chance?? This is a fact that is widely accepted by everyone, even the anti-Hamas guys. Hamas's success in Gaza is the biggest threat to the entire West Asia region as it proves what honest workers can do for the place - do you understand that the bureaucracy has become honest and for a point in time, there weren't even drugs like cocaine etc in the country - Can any other nation say that? They completely cleaned everything up.

Hamas are a bunch of Islamist supremacist nutjobs. As an atheist, I find their ideology ridiculous and abhorrent. However, in spite of that, I don't like the corrupt kleptocracy of Egypt's govt.

Dude, did you miss what Symontk said? Israel imposed sanctions because HAMAS came to power in a democratically held election!

I repost again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006%E2%80 ... _Authority

Quote:
The 2006–2007 economic sanctions against the Palestinian National Authority were imposed by Israel and the Quartet on the Middle East against the Palestinian National Authority and the Palestinian territories.[5]

Israel and the Quartet have said that sanctions would be lifted only when the Palestinian government has met the following demands:

Renunciation of violence,
Recognition of Israel by the Hamas government (as had the PLO), and
Acceptance of previous agreements between Israel and the Palestinian National Authority.
The international sanctions were terminated in June 2007 following the Battle of Gaza, while at the same time a new and more severe blockade of the Gaza Strip was initiated.

The sanctions consist of (1) withholding of tax revenues collected in the Palestinian territories by Israel[2], (2) cutoff of international aid to the Palestinian National Authority from the Quartet countries, (3) restrictions by Israel of movement within the Palestinian territories and of goods moving in and out, and (4) U.S. banking restrictions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80 ... Gaza_Strip

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 07 Jun 2010 06:43

Sanjay M wrote: Heh, "why give someone an excuse to unify TSP"?
What, like they already don't use us as their whipping boy to rally for unity?
Do you even read any Paki papers, man??

Do you even read anything posted on this forum? Dude, have a look at post mumbai attacks comments. If we attacked TSP overtly, Pakistan's internal security problems would have been postponed and every anti govt jihadi, pro govt jihadi would have got together and focused on India. Why do we need to provide TSP the luxury of uniting them? when they are destroying each other anyway. Don't you see TSP was begging India to attack it hence why they did 26/11 (I mean what more do you want, phone calls being traced to TSP, same in Kabul Indian embassy attack - i.e they did it openly)? I think SSridhar said TSPA chief made numerous visits to Turkey, KSA to get support (correct me if I am wrong SSji) prior to 26/11, they were prepared for a fight.

Hamas are a bunch of Islamist supremacist nutjobs. As an atheist, I find their ideology ridiculous and abhorrent. However, in spite of that, I don't like the corrupt kleptocracy of Egypt's govt.

Okay, I respect your belief of them being ridiculous and abhorrent. Islamist supremacist nutjob - please explain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80 ... Gaza_Strip

Any bit in particular in that article you are referring toji?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Jun 2010 06:45

Shyamd wrote
Firstly, you do know rocket fire decreased 98% in the four and a half months between 18 June and 4 November when compared to the four and a half months preceding the ceasefire, since over 1,894 rockets were fired into Israel from 1 February to 18 June and just 37 were fired between 18 June and the beginning of November. That is WAAY better than whatever Fatah could manage when they were in power.

Well, in that case, another way of looking at it would be that the popularity of Hamas in Gaza is really proved by that. So when Hamas is out of power they go out and shoot rockets. When they come to power they stop it - a message that unless you keep us in power we will "rocket" you! But this whole discussion is getting more and more interesting!

Secondly, The takeover from Fatah was necessary since Fatah refused to give control of the Palestinian police force (that was made clear once Hamas raided it and found that Israeli's were also working there, they had joint intelligence stations with Israeli's and had equipment to control UAVs etc - further exposing Fatah who are just under the control of Israeli's). You do know that Hamas military wing was a lot smaller in number and was still able to take over. The takeover completely destroyed entire intel set up in Gaza according to my Hamas source. This is why Israel agreed to the truce in order to plan an attack of Gaza - this was confirmed by the Hindu paper which said the planning for Cast Lead started the day Hamas and Israel agreed the ceasefire. During this period, Israel had to completely rebuild their intel set up. You can read up further on it, by looking at my previous posts on the subject.

Now why does it remind me of those fantastic Islamist narratives of one man or four men or a dozen men or seventeen men boldly moving forth and defeating and crushing and routing a hundered, nay a thousand, nay a ten thousand man enemy! The PNA and Israel were supposed to be in this two-state creation process jointly - wasn't it? In a spirit of cooperation? So what is the big illegality and khujli in Israeli operatives "helping" the Palestinians or what is the great shock in discovering that the secret services of both Israel and previous PNA regime in power had developed cooperative connections?

Lol! You are desperate, Now you are twisting my words:
[...]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_roc ... ifications

Quote:
The aim of the Qassam rocket design appears to be ease and speed of manufacture, using common tools and components. To this end, the rockets are propelled by a solid mixture of sugar and potassium nitrate, a widely available fertilizer. The warhead is filled with smuggled or scavenged TNT and urea nitrate, another common fertilizer

The rocket consists of a steel cylinder, containing a rectangular block of the propellant. A steel plate which forms and supports the nozzles is spot-welded to the base of the cylinder. The warhead consists of a simple metal shell surrounding the explosives, and is triggered by a fuze constructed using a simple firearm cartridge, a spring and a nail.

Ah, now this is getting more and more illuminating! I was under the impression after reading this page that Israel had virtually stopped anything worthwhile getting into Gaza! Hardly any food, little or no construction material [where are the steel cylinders coming from], forget things like steel plates or firearm cartridges or springs which would be screened off effectively by Israeli checkpoints. Sugar? widely available fertilizers, springs, nails, steel plates? Now a starving and dying civilian population gives up sugar to fuel thousands of rockets? Fertilizers are given up for fuelling rockets instead of getting into the fields? First even acknowledging the presence of such "common tools" in Gaza is shocking - come on, that should be quickly corrected - it shows Israel as not managing a gripping 80% reduction in all essential "common items" which is so important to claim publicly - no?

You sound very desperate my friend. Look forward to hearing the next lie from your Israeli brainwashed mind. [...]
The takeover completely destroyed entire intel set up in Gaza according to my Hamas source.

So you have deep connections to Hamas insiders who share inside real info about Gaza with you? That explains the expression "the next lie from your Israeli brainwashed mind"!

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 07 Jun 2010 07:18

brihaspati wrote:Well, in that case, another way of looking at it would be that the popularity of Hamas in Gaza is really proved by that. So when Hamas is out of power they go out and shoot rockets. When they come to power they stop it - a message that unless you keep us in power we will "rocket" you! But this whole discussion is getting more and more interesting!

LOL! This statement doesn't even warrant a reply because it is just a blatant lie.

Now why does it remind me of those fantastic Islamist narratives of one man or four men or a dozen men or seventeen men boldly moving forth and defeating and crushing and routing a hundered, nay a thousand, nay a ten thousand man enemy!

Wouldn't you be happy if, an under armed, under numbered force routs a powerful army backed by the strongest parties in the world?

The PNA and Israel were supposed to be in this two-state creation process jointly - wasn't it? In a spirit of cooperation? So what is the big illegality and khujli in Israeli operatives "helping" the Palestinians or what is the great shock in discovering that the secret services of both Israel and previous PNA regime in power had developed cooperative connections?

So, why did Fatah refuse to hand it over? Anyway, yes it was for cooperation, but it cemented Fatah in power and allowed their corrupt regime to stay in power. The level of cooperation and info was what was mind boggling. Sure, if Israeli's and PA got together to provide each other info on gangs/criminals/terrorists. It would be okay, but they became an instrument of the Israeli's rather than work independently. That was the problem - and this isn't denied by the Israeli experts/analysts either.

Ah, now this is getting more and more illuminating! I was under the impression after reading this page that Israel had virtually stopped anything worthwhile getting into Gaza! Hardly any food, little or no construction material [where are the steel cylinders coming from], forget things like steel plates or firearm cartridges or springs which would be screened off effectively by Israeli checkpoints.

Urmm... Gaza did have an economy at one point, and are you telling me you can't get steel etc from old cars or old machines, just bits and bobs?

Sugar? widely available fertilizers, springs, nails, steel plates? Now a starving and dying civilian population gives up sugar to fuel thousands of rockets? Fertilizers are given up for fuelling rockets instead of getting into the fields? First even acknowledging the presence of such "common tools" in Gaza is shocking - come on, that should be quickly corrected - it shows Israel as not managing a gripping 80% reduction in all essential "common items" which is so important to claim publicly - no?

Thats in parralel to India should stop defence spending, there are millions of poor people. Why can't we spend on them?

You do know that rockets can be stored right? So, they made them prior to the sanctions when there was wide availability of stuff, then later they procured equipment which came through via the tunnels using Iranian money. Yeah you are right, they are not managing an 80% reduction because gaza imports things via the tunnels now, even though it is more expensive/dangerous. The 80% is a UN figure, considering that most of the population survives on aid, poverty has tripled - the israeli's achieving what they wanted to - putting the people of Gaza on a diet in the words of olmert's advisor. Anyway, I wonder how much sugar and fertilizer it actually takes to fuel/arm a rocket, then compare that to what Hamas actually has - I am sure it won't divert serious amounts - But hey, you need defence too right.

BTW, Your argument changed from wondering how Hamas gets to make its bums out of soap to why are they using common items? lol

So you have deep connections to Hamas insiders who share inside real info about Gaza with you? That explains the expression "the next lie from your Israeli brainwashed mind"!

Yeah, nothing new, I have openly said so for the past 3 years on this forum.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 07 Jun 2010 07:21

shyamd wrote:Do you even read anything posted on this forum? Dude, have a look at post mumbai attacks comments. If we attacked TSP overtly, Pakistan's internal security problems would have been postponed and every anti govt jihadi, pro govt jihadi would have got together and focused on India. Why do we need to provide TSP the luxury of uniting them? when they are destroying each other anyway. Don't you see TSP was begging India to attack it hence why they did 26/11 (I mean what more do you want, phone calls being traced to TSP, same in Kabul Indian embassy attack - i.e they did it openly)? I think SSridhar said TSPA chief made numerous visits to Turkey, KSA to get support (correct me if I am wrong SSji) prior to 26/11, they were prepared for a fight.

So according to your clever-by-half reasoning, anytime we suffer terror attacks by Pak, we should just shut up, lie down, and roll over, because any tangible retaliatory response by us would only help them. Ahhh, I see how the phrase GUBO was coined on this forum - as an instrument of national policy.

Okay, I respect your belief of them being ridiculous and abhorrent. Islamist supremacist nutjob - please explain.

They are fundamentalists who don't subscribe to international law. They commit summary executions without trial, they don't seem to want to hold any further elections. With Hamas, the election only happens once - after they get into power, then all further elections are ruled out. At least under PLO, the other Palestinian group had a right to run for office. With Hamas, the choice is one-way, because after choosing them you don't get the opportunity to choose anybody else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80 ... Gaza_Strip
Any bit in particular in that article you are referring toji?

The whole thing. It again reaffirms that it's Hamas' continued rocket attacks which have led to the blockade. Your claim that Hamas' first attack was only a response to an Israeli raid against a kidnapping plot makes me ask if Hamas has denied the kidnapping plan and whether it has disavowed the use of such tactics.

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 07 Jun 2010 07:30

I hate to see my Indian friends battling with each other over something that is happening thousands of miles away when all their energy would be better used to help Mother India. If one takes a trip to Gaza, one will find that no Gaza children will ever die of hunger. No Gaza children will ever suffer or die from malnutrition. The people of Gaza will not die of hunger and heck they will everyday go to bed with thier stomach full. Not with some cheap food but nutritious food rich in meat and milk based protein etc etc etc. Every Gaza kid also has access to well stocked primary school. Many in the so called refugee camps have satelite tvs, refrigerators, washing machines, access to power. And they are supposed to be refugee camps!!!! Many also have access to not just water but hot water too. But alas....wasn't Gaza supposed to be starving under Israeli blockade? Now, how many percent of Indian citizens who are not under any sort of blockade have such luxery goods and services as mentioned above? Most of all, these amenities come to Gaza for free. The men didn't have to work for it and they have all the free time to do other things such err....being terrorists. If they are starving, they would have no energy to train with AKs and RPG or carry around Kassams. If the kids are starving, they would have no energy to gather every evening to throw rocks at Israelis. So much for the myth of starving Gazans.
My friends, can't you see? Instead of arguing for the spoilt brats in Gaza, your energies should be directed to help make the children of mother India at least as healthy and well as the children of Gaza if not better.
This is not a flame bait but as the progeny of a Mother India's daughters, I am sincerely asking all of you to see the reality as it. Arabs using Islam had successfully hijacked the public opinions and voices of the Islamic world for their own purposes to the point where Muslims the world over are unable to see the sufferings of their own people but will fight tooth and nail for the rights and political cause of the Arabs. It would be sad to see Hindus who were equally the victims of Arab/Islamist imperialism fall for the same trap.
Avram Sprinzl

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 07 Jun 2010 07:31

Pro Israeli Gulen?

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php? ... 2010-06-04

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 07 Jun 2010 07:37

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Jun 2010 08:34

shyamd,

I had to wonder - because you quoted explicitly the "common household items" used to make "rockets". I have to wonder more in fact now - since you cannot see any contradiction in the simultaneous claims that Gaza is being starved of all essential "common" necessities, that those common items are also "widely available", that a starving community does not use those very basic inputs as fertilizers and sugar but set it aside for building rockets. Now there is the added claim that all these contradictions can be resolved by assuming that a thriving pre-conflict Gaza economy set aside fertllizers and sugar for a future conflict with Israel! Heard there were no power, little fuel oil - so how are the spot welders running? Or even if they do they are still diverting precious resources needed for the survival of the civilian community?

It was your remark which attributed a fellow BR poster's anticipated comments as that of "lies" from "Israeli brainwashed mind", while you yourself claimed that you had your own "Hamas source". Now that makes me wonder too! Why are not your own claims about what is happening inside Gaza - which in your expressions always looks at everything from the Hamas viewpoint, Hamas arguments, Hamas justifications - also "lies" from a "Hamas brainwashed mind"?

Avram,
Much appreciated. But those Indians who have anything to contribute to India will still contribute even if they have to argue with other Indians over choosing sides in a conflict which is essentially that over the dangers of Islamist ambitions. The Hamas Charter of 1988, and subsequent statements when not restricted by tactical considerations - clearly shows the Islamist expansionist agenda of Hamas. If any fellow Indian who identifies with or has connections to Hamas personnel, calls me a liar with a mind brainwashed by Israel - to me it only highlights the pernicious influence that Hamas can have on the Indian mind. Since the Hamas documents are now officially also published in Urdu - who knows what sort of support network on the subcontinent they are now connected to! I for one, having no personal friend or contact or connection from Israel, or so-called Zionist organizations - entirely sympathize and support the Jews as far as their country is concerned. In fact I will be psychologically more inclined to do so as an Indian after seeing how far Hamas has penetrated.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 07 Jun 2010 08:42

If someone was launching rockets at me and my loved ones, then I would blockade them without hesitation, and I wouldn't care about what the world thinks of me, because I have myself and my loved ones to protect. But if I only care about what the Muslim world thinks of me, and don't care too much about myself or my loved ones, then I might forget about protecting ourselves, and instead trumpet loud ineffectual statements like "Vee vill not bow to terrorism! Let it be known! Let the trumpets play!"

Well I dont say you are wrong also. India might face the same situation once taliban capture power in Pakistan. Already last year there were few incidents of rocket firings (not the regaular cross border firings but the taliban ones) . But until then,

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 07 Jun 2010 08:48

wondering whether it is a Freudian slip about Abhinav Bharat!

Can you please explain why according to you a "right comparison" is between Hamas under Israel and Abhinav Bharat under India? I just now went back over the declared manifestos of Hamas, what is known about the supposed aims of Abhinav Bharat, and the declared "manifestos" of the Indian Mujahideen and SIMI.

Both Hamas and IM/SIMI have declared war against the current state under which they live. AB has not. Both Hamas and IM/SIMI do not recognize the right of the majority community to dominate the current state, and want all non-Muslims to be subject to Islamic rule. I am not even going into other aspects of comparison. Is there any specific reason why corresponding Islamic groups, and when a much better and obvious comparison would be any of the separatist parties engaged in terrorism against the Indian state in J&K - was omitted?

Can you also please explain who respected which "people's verdict" (and if there was such a "people's verdict" ) if you mean the Partition of India in 1947? As far as I know the specific act was not given to a referendum involving universal adult franchise. This perhaps can be answered in the "Partition" thread?

You dont have to declare war to do the war. Referundum is a form of people's verdict. There was a big discussion point from Rahul mehta on how every gov decision should go thru referendum

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 07 Jun 2010 11:06

http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/Galer ... 6575&rid=2

Handiwork of the peaceful activists.