West Asia News and Discussions

[Sanku]

Being honest with you, Kashmir has just become a populist slogan all over. That is all. And I blame ourselves for not educating the media and the wider world about our position on Kashmir and about what is going on there.

I see Sir, a fantastic way of whitewashing the actions of the hamas variety and blaming the victim.

"The girl got R**** because she was dressed provocatively after all"

With this kind of thinking, I can see why your heart oozes with sympathy for people who dont even accept Israels right to exist but are agast at 19 of thugs getting their well deserved ends?

so that they don't repeat propagandist lies.

It appears your efforts have gone the way of dossiers by Shri MM Singh.

Let us be very clear -- the crux of the matter is simple -- refusal of the Arab/Palestinian world to acknowledge Israels existence and a policy to make amends to this grievous wrong through the use of violence.

Period.

[shyamd]

I see Sir, a fantastic way of whitewashing the actions of the hamas variety and blaming the victim.

"The girl got R**** because she was dressed provocatively after all"

With this kind of thinking, I can see why your heart oozes with sympathy for people who dont even accept Israels right to exist but are agast at 19 of thugs getting their well deserved ends?

We have to get our point across, which we haven't been very successful in doing. That is a fact. Israeli's have been very successful in using the media - its a well known fact even accepted by Indian strategists. I am sorry if you can't understand that and take it the wrong way.

It appears your efforts have gone the way of dossiers by Shri MM Singh.

Let us be very clear -- the crux of the matter is simple -- refusal of the Arab/Palestinian world to acknowledge Israels existence and a policy to make amends to this grievous wrong through the use of violence.

Period.

Refusal? This refusal business has been discussed before, the Arab world has more than accepted the existence of Israel. They both know it - if you have Saudi princes openly talking to his educational minister about Israeli universities and also saying no one is going to remove Israel on TV, it tells us that they have more than accepted Israel. UAE's security is literally run by Israeli's. Qatar prior to Gaza war, opened their ports for trade with Israel. Israeli trade offices have been opened for a long time in certain GCC nations. In 2002, KSA made a peace initiative to normalise relations with Israel which was backed by the arab league. Even a few months ago Qatar and Oman offered normalisation of relation in exchange for halting settlement expansion. Israel refused every time. So please save your "Arab refusal to acknowledge" nonsense.

The problem is this: both sides need to convince certain people who are against peace. Listen to Ehud Barak's interview with Charlie Rose from a few months ago, he said it himself - he told Abu Mazen the same and he told Olmert the same. You ask senior arab princes, they say the same..

[Sanku]

We have to get our point across, which we haven't been very successful in doing.

I am terribly sorry Shyam, I thought some points get across automatically. If they dont, I suspect those who dont find getting those points naturally.

There is a fundamental reason your efforts at "showing the true picture" and "dossiers" both go the same way with absolutely no difference to the stated position of Palestine et al on Kashmir. Remember -- This you were flatly denying till showed evidence too -- now you claim its just a slogan and OUR MISTAKE in spreading the word.

The fact is that they are ONE with Pakistan on the issue of Kashmir (and other issues), IN EVERY WAY. They cant do anything right now but keep shut, but what they can and when they can, they help.

Its a meeting of minds and souls for these people.

Refusal? This refusal business has been discussed before, the Arab world has more than accepted the existence of Israel. They both know it -

I am sorry, every one "knows" that Israel exists and has existed for 60 years or more now.

That was never the issue.

The issue is simple -- does the Arab world formally and truly accept the Israel's right to exist?

No they dont -- period. Let us have that both de facto and de jure and a heartfelt acceptance first -- starting with Hamas.

[shyamd]

shyamd,

I had to wonder - because you quoted explicitly the "common household items" used to make "rockets".

Okay, now for the 2nd time let me repost what I said:

So what does your average Gaza suicide terrorist use for equipment - well rockets are made from home made stuff - bits of steel etc. The bombs themselves are made from household stuff like soap.

The bombs referring to the explosives used by soosai terrorists.

I have to wonder more in fact now - since you cannot see any contradiction in the simultaneous claims that Gaza is being starved of all essential "common" necessities, that those common items are also "widely available", that a starving community does not use those very basic inputs as fertilizers and sugar but set it aside for building rockets.

Remind me to write a letter to Army to stop stealing fuel from the poor.

Clearly they don't use enough nitrate and sugar to impact people's lives and there is still plenty to get around. Sure, they keep enough fuel to keep the furnaces going - why not, its defence right?. But there isn't mass manufacturing, its batch production - so once you have stockpiled enough, you don't make any more.

It was your remark which attributed a fellow BR poster's anticipated comments as that of "lies" from "Israeli brainwashed mind", while you yourself claimed that you had your own "Hamas source". Now that makes me wonder too! Why are not your own claims about what is happening inside Gaza - which in your expressions always looks at everything from the Hamas viewpoint, Hamas arguments, Hamas justifications - also "lies" from a "Hamas brainwashed mind"?

Fair enough, but I am just telling you how it is and exposing the lies of the Israeli's. You say that Israel blockaded Gaza because they sent rockets, which was completely false - proven by western media outlets. They blockaded Gaza because Hamas came into power and in the words of the Israeli advisor "put the people on a diet in order to change their mind about Hamas". Just proving their intent once again to target specifically the "people" of Gaza in their own words.

I am being as fair as possible, if Hamas made a mistake, I have come out and said its a mistake.

I made that Israeli brainwashed mind because you chose to twist words that I was saying, which I wasn't too pleased about.

Avramji,
we are just having a lively friendly debate, that is all. It would be great to hear your views as you are someone who is living in Israel.

[shyamd]

So according to your clever-by-half reasoning, anytime we suffer terror attacks by Pak, we should just shut up, lie down, and roll over, because any tangible retaliatory response by us would only help them. Ahhh, I see how the phrase GUBO was coined on this forum - as an instrument of national policy.

I think you know exactly what I am hinting at - like I said just revisit the comments after 26/11.. And FYI, I called for covert targeting of the people involved in 26/11, not overt war.

They are fundamentalists who don't subscribe to international law. They commit summary executions without trial, they don't seem to want to hold any further elections.

Don't seem to want further elections is incorrect, there is internal politics going on between Fatah and Hamas. Fatah are preventing the council from meeting and there is a dispute over some election law. Having said that Fatah should have held elections for president last year I think too, but extended his rule for a year. Lots more to it than just that.

With Hamas, the election only happens once - after they get into power, then all further elections are ruled out. At least under PLO, the other Palestinian group had a right to run for office. With Hamas, the choice is one-way, because after choosing them you don't get the opportunity to choose anybody else.

I have explained this above. Its not as simple as that. But anyway, lets see what happens.

The whole thing. It again reaffirms that it's Hamas' continued rocket attacks which have led to the blockade. Your claim that Hamas' first attack was only a response to an Israeli raid against a kidnapping plot makes me ask if Hamas has denied the kidnapping plan and whether it has disavowed the use of such tactics.

Dude! Did you not read what I posted earlier? The advisor to the Prime Minister has said it was because Hamas ccome to power, the US said it was because Hamas came to power - Vanity fair says the US plotted to remove Hamas from power. What more do you want?

There were more Israeli breaking of the truce even before that specific incident. They went into a house and killed Hamas soldiers in Gaza on the Gaza side of the border. If they really wanted to maintain truce, they would have just destroyed the tunnel. Simple as that.

Kidnapping plan is used to bring back all the civilians - women children etc that have been arrested by Israel. And guess what, it has worked and is working for Hamas. 750 people in exchange for Schalit is what is being talked about. Look at the Hezbollah war, Israel gave up a lot of people in exchange for the soldiers. I do agree however, that Hamas is bringing back some of their people who killed Israeli civilians, which I do agree that they shouldn't do. But the vast majority of prisoners sent back are people who don't pose any threat to Israel - Israel actually ensures it by publishing family names in newspapers.

[shyamd]

I am terribly sorry Shyam, I thought some points get across automatically. If they dont, I suspect those who dont find getting those points naturally.

There is a fundamental reason your efforts at "showing the true picture" and "dossiers" both go the same way with absolutely no difference to the stated position of Palestine et al on Kashmir. Remember -- This you were flatly denying till showed evidence too -- now you claim its just a slogan and OUR MISTAKE in spreading the word.

I am talking about educating the masses about what is going on, it is called having good PR and utilising the media. We need to get better at it. TSP is very good at spreading disinfo using the likes of Zaid Hamid, their consulates write in newspaper articles regularly. Are we really doing enough? Did we do enough with the foreign media? Kargil exposed TSP's true nature, and today there are plenty of Paki's who hang their head in shame, and call Kargil a "disgrace".

I am sorry, every one "knows" that Israel exists and has existed for 60 years or more now.

That was never the issue.

The issue is simple -- does the Arab world formally and truly accept the Israel's right to exist?

Of course they do!

Hamas accepted a document that implicitly accepts israel but stopped short of full recognition

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/5121164.stm

No they dont -- period. Let us have that both de facto and de jure and a heartfelt acceptance first -- starting with Hamas.

They don't because Israel is illegally occupying certain areas and continues to build settlements which the US administration and everyone seems to have a problem with. But the arabs have come out more than once and offered total recognition in exchange for a few things. Israel doesn't even bother to respond (sounds like they dont want peace either), it doesn't come and say, okay lets negotiate.

--------------------------------------

Just to emphasise some points I made earlier:

Why Not Hamas?
The answer to Israel’s strategic dilemma may reside in Gaza.

Quote:

Hamas has demonstrated a will and a capacity to think and act pragmatically when it believes it useful or necessary. There’s no better example of this than its governance of Gaza. Yes, it continues to play the role of peace-process spoiler when that role suits its interests. But Hamas has also demonstrated a serious capacity to exercise responsibility and restraint when that role suits its purposes. It has demonstrated its ability to control Gaza effectively, to both enforce a long-term cessation of hostilities and to withstand the combined efforts of the United States, Israel, and Egypt to bring it to its knees.

Quote:

Current policy, after all, sends Hamas the signal that it is doomed to exclusion come what may and forever. But the more that Hamas is permitted inside the tent, the better the prospects of a modest (yet historic) success. Of course, there will be those who say this is impossible. They will say Hamas is inhuman, and why would the Iranians ever allow this? The answer is that Fatah hardly behaves much better than Hamas. Besides, Fatah has limited ability to deliver any sort of peace without the consent of Hamas. As far as the Iranians go, once you start talking with Hamas, you soon discover how much they hate the guts of those renegade Shiites in Tehran. I could be wrong about all of this. But given the unworkable alternatives, surely this is worth putting to the test.

Efraim Halevy is head of the Center for Strategic and Policy Studies at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. He served as head of the Mossad from 1998 to 2002, and he was national security adviser to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in 2002-2003. He is the author of Man in the Shadows: Inside the Middle East Crisis with a Man who Led the Mossad.

[brihaspati]

shyamd,
as far as I can see - I have not made any claims about Israel's blockade being formally justified on the rocket issue. You have confused here with material from other posters. I have given a completely different possible political justification for Israel's point of view :

Err....., regarding the "sanctions against PNA", as far as I know the international sanction has been lifted from the West Bank following the "Battle of Gaza", and it is the Gaza part which is under sanction, because here Hamas dominates. Hamas has refused to formally give up military overthrow of the state of Israel, and offered only a temporary truce or "Hudna" (Hudna was offered by the founding father of Islam to Jewish settlements typically until he could gather enough strength to run a ghazwa on it - and therefore Israel has no reason to trust it). Initially, Hamas condemned (and the primary official reason given to fight Fatah) PLO and the PNA because PNA was based on a recognition of the two-state premise.

So election of Hamas to majority implies - given no official change about existence of Israel - that Gaza residents at least do not recognize the right of Israel to exist and do not subscribe to the foundational principle of the PNA. Israel and the Quartet has the right to take the return of Hamas electorally as a declaration of war on Israel and therefore itself an act against the PNA.

I raised rockets in a different context : not connected to justifications for blockade.

Why a popularly elected representative power in Gaza had to resort to a battle against fellow "Palestinians" to take "control" but still cannot "control" rocket or mortar attacks into Israel from Gaza? actually given the claim that all artillery/projectile ammunition in Gaza could be made with household items like soap etc, it would be most interesting to know these cheap techniques to make mortars and rockets out of soap etc. It can cut our defense industry costs.

[Sanku]

The issue is simple -- does the Arab world formally and truly accept the Israel's right to exist?

Of course they do!

Hamas accepted a document that implicitly accepts israel but stopped short of full recognition

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/5121164.stm

This is acceptance?


From a BBC report quoting unnamed sources no less.

And you miss the fundamental point -- you say that Zaid Hamid is a good example of PR ? You know what is my opinion of the kind of people who buy what Zaid Hamid peddles? And what is my expectation of their response to Indian "truth"? These guys live on a diet of 10000000000000000000000 Indian security forces carrying out 10000000000000000000 murders and what not daily. These guys are bred on Zaid Hamid even before Zaid Hamid was borne. Indian PoV is not going to cut ice.

And Pakis being ashamed of Kargil? Why I wonder? They should be first and foremost be ashamed of being a Paki? Are they?

Shyam give it a break. While all the dossier writing and spreading the word and all that is good time pass that consulates should do (no harm in bleating to the world that we are lambs) -- none of this changes two things

1) The real nature and feeling of Palestinans and other Arabs (in context of Israel)
2) The need for Israel (and India) to not buy the "we are harmless only" that our consulates should churn out and let our actions be anything but.

So bottom line -- morally or pragmatically, Hamas and it backers (including Palestinians) represents the worst of Islamistic world view and tool, and that reality must always be remembered.

[shyamd]

Brihaspatiji, my bad, apologies to you. Nevertheless, voting for Hamas was not just politics with Israel but also internal politics don't forget. PNA has delivered nothing but corruption and the people are sick of it, so people of Gaza wanted to give Hamas a try - Hamas proved themselves, all of a sudden there was security and roads/infrastructure was getting built without corruption - there are areas where Israel and Hamas are working together everyday in terms of infrastructure and other related stuff. Besides, Israel blockaded Gaza to target the people to get them to change their mind - US/Israel say so openly.

[Sanjay M]

We have to get our point across, which we haven't been very successful in doing. That is a fact. Israeli's have been very successful in using the media - its a well known fact even accepted by Indian strategists. I am sorry if you can't understand that and take it the wrong way.

You sound like a closet Pak-sympathizer to me.

"The rabid propaganda of the ummah is justified, because Indians aren't doing a good enough job to stop it."

"The bank robbery was justified, because the security guard's reflexes were not quick enough."

Nah, I'll put primary culpability on those who robbed the bank, over the slowness of the security guard.

[brihaspati]

I think it may help if we separate out the two issues :
(a) The justifications for their respective actions by Israel and Hamas
(b) Which side India or Indians should take in this contest

For the first, if Hamas's right to stretch supposed commonly accepted modern humanitarian concerns (which again differs slightly or substantially depending on whether the viewer is talking from European christian viewpoint, or American EJist viewpoint, or supposed orthodox Zionist viewpoint, or supposed "moderate" "liberal" Judaic viewpoint, or Palestinian Fatah viewpoint, or Hamas viewpoint, or Israeli government viewpoint, or Leftist viewpoint, or "liebral" Indian viewpoint, or Iranian throcratic viewpoint, or Paki viewpoint etc) are acceptable as a matter of survival struggle and strategy - then such rights have to be extended to Israel too and vice versa.

For the second, it is firmly in India's interest to be on the Israeli side. We can take up a mimicking of the US attitude if we want, growl and grumble about so-called over-enthusiasm of the Israelis, but still be on Isareli side where it really counts. No Islamic expansion movement can ever be trusted. No rashtryia framework should be allowed for new Islamic homelands, and everything done to subvert their future formations. We had allowed Pakis once, and Kashmir Valley Muslims may many times, and apparently "respected" some kind of a "popular will" - and we see what we have landed ourselves with. In fact our efforts should be to do everything possible to roll back existing Islamic homelands and in this I would support Israel's expansion rather than contraction.

[shyamd]

You sound like a closet Pak-sympathizer to me.

"The rabid propaganda of the ummah is justified, because Indians aren't doing a good enough job to stop it."

"The bank robbery was justified, because the security guard's reflexes were not quick enough."

Nah, I'll put primary culpability on those who robbed the bank, over the slowness of the security guard.

I LOL at that statement - people who read what I said will understand exactly what I mean. If this is the best you can come up with - which is a personal attack, rather than talk about what I said, then it is here for everyone to see.

You said rockets are the reason why Israel blockaded Hamas, that was proved wrong - now you are just making personal attacks. Well done mate, you won the debate.

[shyamd]

This is acceptance?


From a BBC report quoting unnamed sources no less.

Firstly that was Hamas ( I know you know that was Hamas, and you have chosen not to comment on the arab offer), who I do agree does have extreme views on Israel - that is open, but they won't climb down over night, and that was a step in the right direction (welcome to realpolitik), but too late, Israel blockaded them anyway while Fatah was convincing them to stick to 2 state solution and the other stuff previously agreed to. That document that Hamas signed was widely reported and was all over the news, a little research will tell you that.

And you miss the fundamental point -- you say that Zaid Hamid is a good example of PR ? You know what is my opinion of the kind of people who buy what Zaid Hamid peddles? And what is my expectation of their response to Indian "truth"? These guys live on a diet of 10000000000000000000000 Indian security forces carrying out 10000000000000000000 murders and what not daily. These guys are bred on Zaid Hamid even before Zaid Hamid was borne. Indian PoV is not going to cut ice.

You are missing the point I am making, it wasn't about what Zaid Hamid is peddling, it is the effect of what he is peddling. He is convincing a whole bunch of people (his reach is increasing via youtube and broadcasts/interviews). For example just type in Kashmir in google news and look at the number of ISI propaganda news services they have - you know they write a lot in local/regional papers in the UK. We need to do more to counter it, so far India has only shown the ability to block the propaganda from reaching Kashmir via blocking Pak TV channels/cell phone services etc, but not the whole world.

And Pakis being ashamed of Kargil? Why I wonder? They should be first and foremost be ashamed of being a Paki? Are they?

Lol! They won't be ashamed of being Paki, but they certainly are ashamed of what happened in kargil.

Shyam give it a break. While all the dossier writing and spreading the word and all that is good time pass that consulates should do (no harm in bleating to the world that we are lambs) -- none of this changes two things

I wonder why Israel bothers coming on the news - people like Mark Regev and other IDF PR guys, in fact why bother with PR at all and the massive Israeli funded media network in the west - they clearly have it just for fun and to utilise the billions of dollars in aid that the US provides them in order to exist as a nation.

1) The real nature and feeling of Palestinans and other Arabs (in context of Israel)
2) The need for Israel (and India) to not buy the "we are harmless only" that our consulates should churn out and let our actions be anything but.

So bottom line -- morally or pragmatically, Hamas and it backers (including Palestinians) represents the worst of Islamistic world view and tool, and that reality must always be remembered.

[/quote]
I have answered 1) already, arabs have come out and said we want peace in exchange for x, which is merely thrown in the dustbin by the Israeli's.

Explain number 2 and the bottom line a bit more please. TIA

[Carl_T]

Shyamd I think you will be getting your wish in any case - it does look like Fatah is serious about declaring independence, especially with the US trained security force they have. In the future I think even Gaza will be independent after they accept Israel's existence. So not soon, but probably eventually.

[brihaspati]

Yes, some degree of independence will be inevitable. Israel is holding on to its rigid position, so that it can concede a little and hope to save as much of the situation as possible. But this is beginning of the eventual expansion of Jihad from Palestinian entities against Israel and with the given trends it will mean overrunning of Israeli territories and populations as the next phase.

I think Indians and Israelites should begin to thank everyone ranged along the side of Hamas and of the believers of Islamic subjugation of all non-Muslims (Hamas charter and various statements by leading lights of Hamas) for their humanitarian contributions to the cause of human civilization. Once and if genocide of the Jews takes place, and the eastern Mediterranean falls to Islamists - each and every force - from individuals to organizations to groups to parties to nations - which have even remotely favoured Hamas and the various related Jihadis should be remembered for their actions. They should be in the future treated exactly as the Jihadists themselves - which means whatever is applied to Jihadists should be applied to their non-Muslim collaborators. If it is pardon for their crassness so be it! But treat them as collaborators and participants, and never let it be forgotten in future as long as their descendants live or die out.

[shyamd]

Now what I want is a totally different question to what I have said so far - where I have explained what is happening. I am just telling you how it is.

Now what do I want? Gaza and West Bank can't exist on their own economically - independently imo. The only way is to merge with Egypt, West Bank with Jordan. That solves most of the issues, but at the moment, both have bad blood. I think that is the only way, Gaza and West Bank will be able to survive if it can merge with these countries. Golan needs to be given up for Syria again, thats all Assad wants.

Hamas itself is a complicated organisation, you have the Ismail Haniyeh guys who are from Gaza, live in Gaza and are the political side - who are ready and want peace with Israel. Then you have the military wing (Izz e Din al Qassam brigades) - who is the more radical side who are based out of Damascus controlled by Khaled Meshaal (the guy who Israel tried unsuccessfully to assassinate in Amman). The radical side is less inclined to making peace with Israel.

Brihaspatiji, You are right that they are holding on to concede less and less - But both sides have to compromise right? Israel knows what it takes to make peace, watch Ehud Barak interview with Charlie Rose a few months back, he says it how it is. Please tell me the number of times Israel has come forward for negotiations with the Arabs to solve it once in for all.

Expansion of Jihad to the "next phase"? LOL! You are living in a dream world my friend. No one can touch Israel and that is a fact which every decision maker who has the power in their hand to do something knows.

I think Indians and Israelites should begin to thank everyone ranged along the side of Hamas and of the believers of Islamic subjugation of all non-Muslims (Hamas charter and various statements by leading lights of Hamas) for their humanitarian contributions to the cause of human civilization.

[Sarcasm on]No worries, thank you very much or giving us your message.What you are saying is akin to: Lets continue to starve those Muslims on the eastern med, better yet lets kill them ALL, because they will kill us otherwise. The world will be a better place without those Moslems. Sure man, great theory there.

Once and if genocide of the Jews takes place, and the eastern Mediterranean falls to Islamists - each and every force - from individuals to organizations to groups to parties to nations - which have even remotely favoured Hamas and the various related Jihadis should be remembered for their actions.

They should be in the future treated exactly as the Jihadists themselves - which means whatever is applied to Jihadists should be applied to their non-Muslim collaborators. If it is pardon for their crassness so be it! But treat them as collaborators and participants, and never let it be forgotten in future as long as their descendants live or die out.

Sure, I will buy you a Gold medal for your effort when you decide to kill all those Muslims - and you can put a plaque on your wall for your efforts, oh how about a national award too. (Sarcasm off)

[brihaspati]

If Hamas fails to get what it originally set out to do - then its main military component is likely to break apart from the parent (or the political wing itself chooses to do so - so that future militancy can be carried out under total deniability). By the way I simply mentioned remembering the role of the collaborators and uniform treatment with the Jihadis themselves. I think I even mentioned the word "pardon" for their "crassness". If I am too eager to see red in Islamism you seem too eager to paint Islamics as the permanent victims.

Neither Egypt, nor Jordan will be eager to accept the Palestinians and their current residential territories as a permanent district or province of their respective nations. Both countries have regimes facing severe problems from homegrown Jihadis, and Egypt especially has problems with the MB. The banned MB's MP's have already been gathering to move into Gaza after Mubarak has been forced to make the u-turn to placate the Islamists in Egypt. it shows which way the real wind is blowing there. Allowing such incorporation will mean increasing the power of the MB and their eventual use of Jordanian and Egyptian resources to make their long held dream of erasing Israel. Which means both countries getting involved into a war.

Only thing that will keep Israel alive is its potential capacity to use nukes. Now is that such a great obstacle for the Jihadis? I don't think so - not at this stage. The fall of Israel or a drastic reduction in its territory in the medium term is not unlikely. The Jihadis will wait for the right time when the only serious defender of Israel - USA is sufficiently tied up - either politically or militarily to go for it.

You do tend to overshoot in your enthusiasm for sarcasm. You do know, that - it is sooo tempting?

[D Roy]

I have to unfortunately say something here.

I have followed the pattern of posting on this thread and a lot of seemingly insider but factual stuff is posted here and is discussed more dispassionately than other threads on BRF.

The present discussion on page is veering into an ideological exchange at the crux of which is the controversial topic of the pan-islamist credo.

I for one would like to see this thread return to its more succint cold geopolitical texture where we take an even approach to the dynamics of the middle east.

[Sanku]

and that was a step in the right direction (welcome to realpolitik), but too late, Israel blockaded them anyway while Fatah was convincing them to stick to 2 state solution and the other stuff previously agreed to.

Shyam I dont think *it was a step in the right direction* The ONLY step in the right direction is

"Unilateral acceptance of Israel as a country and its sovereign rights"

I do not think Israel has to give anything. Hamas is like Pakistan, it will first claim the right to fly the green flag on red fort and magnanimously in the spirit of give and take settle only for Kashmir.

(do not take the above -\== literally, I mean it only to illustrate)

Thank you, No dice as far as I am concerned.

You are missing the point I am making, it wasn't about what Zaid Hamid is peddling, it is the effect of what he is peddling. He is convincing a whole bunch of people (his reach is increasing via youtube and broadcasts/interviews).

And Why is Jahil Hamid not convincing the Russians Hainjee?

No Shyam you miss a fundamental point. Jahil Hamid convinces Palestinians because they are already on his frequency.

They are the flock for him.

Lol! They won't be ashamed of being Paki, but they certainly are ashamed of what happened in kargil.

If you ask me, that makes me feel even more sick of those turds. Why are sick of Kargil? Because they lost thats why, the entire lot has so much more worse than Kargil every day that they need to be sick off.

And no it does not require exposure to see that they dont know. They know. Its just that they are already like it.

I wonder why Israel bothers coming on the news - people like Mark Regev and other IDF PR guys, in fact why bother with PR at all and the massive Israeli funded media network in the west - they clearly have it just for fun and to utilise the billions of dollars in aid that the US provides them in order to exist as a nation.

You miss the point, they are not doing a PR on Arabs. Neither do I think thats wrong.

2) The need for Israel (and India) to not buy the "we are harmless only" that our consulates should churn out and let our actions be anything but.


So bottom line -- morally or pragmatically, Hamas and it backers (including Palestinians) represents the worst of Islamistic world view and tool, and that reality must always be remembered.

[/quote]

Explain number 2 and the bottom line a bit more please. TIA[/quote]

I dont understand what clarification is required. Hamas and its backers, including the Pali's who vote for them, are very well aware of the inherent hatred for Israel and Jews and the only solution that they want is its complete destruction.

These backers include a whole host of powers in Middle east.

I have answered 1) already, arabs have come out and said we want peace in exchange for x, which is merely thrown in the dustbin by the Israeli's.

Because its worth throwing in the dustbin, at best.

[Sanku]

The present discussion on page is veering into an ideological exchange at the crux of which is the controversial topic of the pan-islamist credo.

I for one would like to see this thread return to its more succint cold geopolitical texture where we take an even approach to the dynamics of the middle east.

Why, in the end, that is the crux really speaking isnt it? The cold geopolitical texture is in the end, a fig leaf to dance around the topics we really dont want to spell out isnt it?

Are you afraid of a thread lock and stuff? This thread should be safe from it despite allusions to the crux I think.

[Sanku]

Yes, some degree of independence will be inevitable. Israel is holding on to its rigid position, so that it can concede a little and hope to save as much of the situation as possible. But this is beginning of the eventual expansion of Jihad from Palestinian entities against Israel and with the given trends it will mean overrunning of Israeli territories and populations as the next phase.

My time line is around 40 years, give or take.

India (hopefully still playing the game till then) should prepare to absorb the migrants like we did with Parsis and be ready to use them to make a stand when our time comes when the same forces attack us from Pakistan.

[Sanjay M]

As I have previously stated before on multiple occasions, well before this flotilla incident, it is inevitable that Turkey would return to the fold of Islamism, and by virtue of its history and its internal politics, become a leader of the global Islamic bloc.

The question is - can it do so effectively without restoration of its former imperial territories (eg. Arab lands)? Can the Turks do a Lawrence of Arabia in reverse?

Or would Turkey get clobbered by its neighboring rivals like Iran did following its 1979 revolution and renunciation of its US alliance?

Could we see Turkey on its current heading undergoing a sharp rupture in its ties with the West? Or would it suffer a gradual deterioration, Pak-ishtyle?

We can see that Israel is going to necessarily have to review its future plans with Turkey, but what about Europe and the US? What will they do? The US values Turkey for its contribution to NATO and its interlocutory efforts between the US and the Islamic world. Will Turkey continue to be productive in this role? Isn't Turkey's new turn yet another nail in NATO's coffin?
EU isn't going to let Turkey join no matter what, but how will Turkey's latest direction change Europe's view of it? Will Europe be united in its view of Turkey, or will there be divisions over it? If so, then where will the fault lines fall?
Currently, the Euro-zone is divided over fiscal policies, but would the emergence of Turkey as a more independent power to Europe's east, then result in a new form of divide between those most affected by Turkey's rise and those less affected by it?

Currently, Europeans see Russia as the main traditional threat to their security and stability, but would Turkey come to find itself on Europe's threat roster as well - at least more than before?

[Sanjay M]

I LOL at that statement - people who read what I said will understand exactly what I mean. If this is the best you can come up with - which is a personal attack, rather than talk about what I said, then it is here for everyone to see.

You said rockets are the reason why Israel blockaded Hamas, that was proved wrong - now you are just making personal attacks. Well done mate, you won the debate.

You proved nothing - one guy from CNN doesn't dictate history, no more so than Helen Thomas can with her nonsense. Deflecting my points by calling them personal attacks doesn't add to your argument. This is Bharat Rakshak, not Palestine Rakshak, and thusfar your arguments can be summed up by, "Palestine conflict is #1 to me! But Kashmir conflict? Bah, that only happened because we deserve it!"
Sorry, but India-related conflicts are of course a higher priority to me, and the Palestinians can take a number and get in line.

I don't have to win a debate - you're not debating me, you're writing me a postcard from Wagah.

Lol! They won't be ashamed of being Paki, but they certainly are ashamed of what happened in kargil.

I've never heard of any Paki ashamed of Kargil. I've never heard of any Paki ashamed of Gibraltar. I've never heard of any Paki ashamed of Ajmal Kasab. I've never heard of any Paki ashamed of 9/11. I've never heard of any Paki ashamed of 7/7. I've never heard of any Paki ashamed of East Pakistani genocide. I've never heard of any Paki ashamed of 1948 invasion of J&K. I've never heard of any Paki ashamed of partition.

All of the above are "evil hindoo/yindoo plots"

I've occasionally heard a Paki ashamed of Zia's role in Black September, because that was Muslim-on-Muslim.

Maybe that one guy Cowasjee feels ashamed of those other things, but he's a Parsi anyway, so he doesn't count.

In that case, you must only be talking to Parsi Pakis. You seem to be seeing only what you want to see, and not what's really there.

[Carl_T]

You proved nothing - one guy from CNN doesn't dictate history, no more so than Helen Thomas can with her nonsense. Deflecting my points by calling them personal attacks doesn't add to your argument. This is Bharat Rakshak, not Palestine Rakshak, and thusfar your arguments can be summed up by, "Palestine conflict is #1 to me! But Kashmir conflict? Bah, that only happened because we deserve it!"
Sorry, but India-related conflicts are of course a higher priority to me, and the Palestinians can take a number and get in line.

To be fair, this is not Israel Rakshak either.

More seriously, can we stop drawing parallels to Kashmir when we discuss Palestine? Two different things with different histories. Doing so is very much framing the debate in the exact way the Islamists want.

As for the notion that India will bear the brunt of the anger of all the world's zillion and growing Muslims if Gaza were to be separated from Israel. Why has it not happened already? Why has "Global Islamism" flatly not given priority to Kashmir? We are exaggerating our importance if we think along that line.

[Sanjay M]

I'll say that Russia stands to gain significantly from the latest turn of events. The arrival of Turkey as a free agent, or head of a rising Islamic bloc, will only serve to distract Western strategists from their obsessive fixation on Moscow.

I wonder how the Chinese view this? Like us, they too favour multi-polarity, and Turkey's growing independence is convergent with that. Meanwhile Brzezinski's simplistic dream of G2 US-China bipolarity is again thwarted by the unforeseen complexities of reality.
But will his late colleague Samuel Huntington's Clash-of-Civilizations view mean that Turkey becomes a key Chinese client, as per his forecast of Sino-Islamic alliance?

I could actually see that working, since Turkey has historic rivalries with Russia, Europe, and the West as a whole. China would be the ideal Far Emperor for them, in the long run. In the short run, they seem to be coming out of the closet a bit suddenly and soon, almost like a Velvet Iranian Revolution.

How will the Arab leaders react? There's no love lost between Egypt and Hamas, the latter of which Turkey seems to be suddenly infatuated with. Likewise, KSA and other Sheikhdoms are wary of any rivals who would threaten their sovereignty and stability. Can Turkey champion Islamist populism without rubbing these fragile govts the wrong way? After all, Turkey's govt has a popular mandate, which none of these others have.

What happens to Turkey's relations with Pak, and with us? Are we too far away to attract their meddling? Will a bad drone incident spark Erdogan's next tirade? What will he limit his scope to?

[Surya]

unless this is some elaborate charade between Turkey and israel - the situation has helped the Iranians.
The Iranians have been trying to expand their influence to make themselves more relevant player

They already have a big say in Lebanon and Gaza and of course Syria. Iraq is pretty much their backyard and the Kurdish groups in Iraq have been iranian friends too. some of the smaller GCC states can be tipped over if needed.

Now they have moved on the Turks via a combo of energy politics as wells playing the kurdish card once in a while.

Of course the Turks may have some of their own calculations but presently they will be more adamant in giving the Iranians the much needed escape route on the nuclear issue.

of course this does not prevent an attack down the line - but it will be an attack that will be very very costly and end up making them stronger.

[Sanjay M]

To be fair, this is not Israel Rakshak either.

No, but the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
And my enemy seems to condense both countries into the yindoo axis. All of us Shylocks look alike to them.

Way back, when I was in university, a visiting Associate Professor of Electrical Engineering began teaching there. He was an Egyptian named Mohammed El-Masri, and he was a "sympathizer" of the Muslim Brotherhood - also known by an acronym you may have seen in this thread.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story. ... 65b1a654d9

http://www.montrealmuslimnews.net/dimanno.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_I ... n_Conflict

As soon as he arrived, he immediately began organizing large protests on campus, and began holding seminars on religion in general, and then later expanded to "educate" people about various "injustices" affecting the Muslim world. As an atheist, I decided it would do no harm to see his viewpoint on religion.

At first, the target of his protests was Israel, of course. Then he expanded further. He decided to hold a big seminar on Kashmir, for which he invited a Pakistani lady to make the actual presentation. Probably because he realized there were lots of SouthAsians on campus.

I showed up - and I made sure a lot of desis showed up. So many of us showed up in fact, that we dwarfed the attendance on all his previous seminars. And I made sure to smilingly ask the right questions. I was surprised to see how many of us were willing to turn out for this issue - as I'm sure was he. So we gave him a little education, too.

More seriously, can we stop drawing parallels to Kashmir when we discuss Palestine? Two different things with different histories. Doing so is very much framing the debate in the exact way the Islamists want.

As for the notion that India will bear the brunt of the anger of all the world's zillion and growing Muslims if Gaza were to be separated from Israel. Why has it not happened already? Why has "Global Islamism" flatly not given priority to Kashmir? We are exaggerating our importance if we think along that line.

I haven't made any claim that if Muslims get Gaza, they'll be marching on India next.
But I don't think they'll be appeased by getting Gaza and the West Bank. Their populism requires an ever-present external enemy, because that's how they derive their unity.

It is the nature of Islam to find itself in conflict with every other ethnic group. I don't see any non-Muslim minorities happily enjoying full rights in any Muslim country. Even Turkey, which was the one place Muslims have pointed to as treating all religions equally, is now falling like a domino. It will soon become the capitol of the Muslim world, flocked to by Muslims from far and wide. Even Musharraf will retire there.

I'm not saying that India should take some lead role in resolving the Israel-Palestinian conflict for Israel - as you've said, why attract undue attention? But neither should we be fighting it for the Palestinians. Likewise, neither do I feel that the Israelis should fight our battles for us. (I know there's no point in claiming that Palestinians shouldn't fight our battles for us, because the very premise of them siding with us over Pakistan is laughable.)

[Sanjay M]

unless this is some elaborate charade between Turkey and israel - the situation has helped the Iranians.
The Iranians have been trying to expand their influence to make themselves more relevant player

They already have a big say in Lebanon and Gaza and of course Syria. Iraq is pretty much their backyard and the Kurdish groups in Iraq have been iranian friends too. some of the smaller GCC states can be tipped over if needed.

All the more reason for the Kurds to be in the pro-West camp.

The Iranians have been thrown a lifeline by the Turks, particularly with respect to their nuclear ambitions.
However, the Turks' own secular credentials have been eroded.
How long can Erdogan continue to ride on the legacy of past govts?

Now they have moved on the Turks via a combo of energy politics as wells playing the kurdish card once in a while.

Of course the Turks may have some of their own calculations but presently they will be more adamant in giving the Iranians the much needed escape route on the nuclear issue.

of course this does not prevent an attack down the line - but it will be an attack that will be very very costly and end up making them stronger.

Turkey is clearly out of step with NATO, and their latest divergence is only another reason for NATO's dissolution. The members no longer have enough in common anymore. Alive or dead, it will be a largely ineffectual organization.

[brihaspati]

http://www.countercurrents.org/frykberg260510.htm

Hamas' Turn To Demolish Palestinian Homes
By Mel Frykberg
26 May, 2010
Inter Press Service

RAMALLAH, May 25, 2010 (IPS) - On Sunday approximately 150 Palestinians from 20 families were driven out of their homes in Rafah, in the southern Gaza strip, by heavily armed police and soldiers who menaced them with clubs. The difference this time was that it was not the Israeli Defence Forces carrying out evictions and demolitions but Hamas security forces, including policewomen with their faces veiled. Reporters trying to cover the event were barred by Hamas police.

Many of those expelled had already lost their homes and been forced into the streets when Israel carried out its brutal military assault over the coastal territory, which deliberately targeted Gaza’s infrastructure, during Operation Cast Lead at the end of 2008 and the beginning of 2009. Some of the homes destroyed on Sunday were temporary shacks built hastily after the Israeli assault. Other homes were concrete structures built prior to Israel’s crippling blockade, imposed on Gaza after Hamas took control in June 2007, which has prevented most reconstruction material from entering the territory.

The Hamas authorities argue that the homes were built on government land and without permission. Residents claimed they had been sold permits by a local landowner. This is an explanation West Bankers regularly hear from the Israelis before Palestinian homes and buildings in the West Bank are destroyed, albeit the territory is illegally occupied by Israel whereas Hamas is a democratically elected government and the Gaza strip is Palestinian land.


Meanwhile, attempts by the U.N. Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) to provide some summer fun and entertainment for Gaza’s traumatised children suffered a setback when one of its recreational facilities was torched after 30 armed and masked men attacked the facility on Monday. UNRWA released a statement saying, "The location is one of 35 beach facilities under construction, which will form part of UNRWA’s annual Summer Games programme for over 250,000 refugee children in Gaza, due to commence on Jun. 12."

Before leaving the gunmen left a letter - containing threats against UNRWA officials and its director of operations in Gaza John Ging - and three bullets in the pocket of the security guard who was handcuffed and beaten with rifle butts. Ging condemned the incident and said that "UNRWA will not be intimidated by such acts and will quickly rebuild the location in good time to host the Summer Games."

Extremists in Gaza have expressed disapproval at the Western influence of UNRWA as well as some of its activities, including teaching girls swimming, fitness and dancing. The Hamas authorities have been battling increasing incidents of Islamic extremism which have targeted beauty salons, coffee shops, Internet cafes, the YMCA and a Red Cross convoy. Groups with links to al-Qaeda have also launched attacks against Hamas’ security forces. A shootout between Jund Ansar Allah and Hamas police last year in Rafah left more than 20 dead.
[...]
Although the Hamas authorities have cracked down on Islamic extremists, Gazans who tried to hold a protest march against the arson attack on the UNRWA facility were forcibly turned back by Hamas police. This suppression of civil liberties came as the Hamas authorities simultaneously prevented a human rights workshop to discuss rights and freedom in the Palestinian territories from being held at a Gaza hotel on Monday.
[...]
The Palestinian Independent Commission for Human Rights lashed out at the decision. Mustafa Ibrahim, a jurist on the commission, said the hotel management had received a phone call forbidding the workshop. "The decision to bar the event is an unprecedented interference in the work of human rights organisations. NGOs are not required to obtain a permit or seek the government's permission to hold workshops," said Ibrahim.

[Surya]

The Iranians have been thrown a lifeline by the Turks, particularly with respect to their nuclear ambitions.

thats what it seems on the surface - all the more you need to dig

[brihaspati]

http://www.mererhetoric.com/2010/05/26/ ... -flotilla/
BRFites : interesting alternative take on Hamas and Gaza! I believe we have sufficient expertise here and possible direct connection/access to insider/on-spot Hamas sources to refute or verify the "rhetoric".

Our problem isn’t so much that your goal involves obfuscating the millions of tons of food and aid we’ve delivered to Gaza civilians, which allowed Hamas to move money away from infrastructure and into weaponry, which led to more of our cities getting bombarded with rockets and missiles. It’s not even how, knowing that we deliver 15,000 tons of goods every week, your 10,000 tons of concrete isn’t exactly a shining testament to your good intentions. Not when just last week we handed over 810,209 liters of heavy duty diesel fuel, 21 truckloads of milk powder and baby food, 897 tons of cooking gas, 66 truckloads of fruits and vegetables, 51 truckloads of wheat, 27 truckloads of meat, chicken and fish products, 40 truckloads of dairy products, 117 truckloads of animal feed, 36 truckloads of hygiene products, 38 trucks of clothing, 22 trucks of sugar and 4 trucks of medicine and medical equipment. But again: not the issue.

Tourists hoping for bargains may nonetheless find themselves disappointed, however. Gaza’s relatively healthy per capita income – higher than India’s as a result of being the world’s largest per-capita aid recipient – keeps demand robust and prices stable.

Now can that be true? I wonder....

[Sanjay M]

thats what it seems on the surface - all the more you need to dig

You tell me - what else do you feel is happening there? You feel that Turkey is being put upto this nuclear deal by Washington, and that they're only venting on Israel as payment for that? That doesn't seem very likely to me.

I wonder if Turkey will come up with a way to help Pak wriggle out of its international commitments. After all, they'd face very little penalty from our side for it. In return, Pak could help Turkey with some nuclear and missile tech, just like its quid pro quo with North Korea.

[shyamd]

If Hamas fails to get what it originally set out to do - then its main military component is likely to break apart from the parent (or the political wing itself chooses to do so - so that future militancy can be carried out under total deniability).

That is a possibility - But what is more likely is that if there is a peaceful settlement, then that would be the end of militancy for good - especially if the economy starts going again, they might have jobs etc.

By the way I simply mentioned remembering the role of the collaborators and uniform treatment with the Jihadis themselves. I think I even mentioned the word "pardon" for their "crassness". If I am too eager to see red in Islamism you seem too eager to paint Islamics as the permanent victims.

Yeah, and you also said :

They should be treated as jihadists....
But treat them as collaborators and participants, and never let it be forgotten in future as long as their descendants live or die out.

That is akin to Jews wearing badges to identify themselves as jews. Is this the society you would want?

No, if I said they were permanent victims, then that would mean I would support Al Muhajiroun in UK, Iraqi Al Qaeda etc which I don't and you can look back at my statements on them.

Neither Egypt, nor Jordan will be eager to accept the Palestinians and their current residential territories as a permanent district or province of their respective nations. Both countries have regimes facing severe problems from homegrown Jihadis, and Egypt especially has problems with the MB. The banned MB's MP's have already been gathering to move into Gaza after Mubarak has been forced to make the u-turn to placate the Islamists in Egypt.

Yes, but the west CAN make them accept them, both WB and Gaza can't survive on its own. Egypt has problems with the MB because Egypt is an autocratic regime - now getting into egypt is a different story. But, the point was that its unviable in the present state or form.

it shows which way the real wind is blowing there.

Yes, people are sick and tired of the regime and its corruption, the same reason why Hamas came to power.

Allowing such incorporation will mean increasing the power of the MB and their eventual use of Jordanian and Egyptian resources to make their long held dream of erasing Israel. Which means both countries getting involved into a war.

You are making the assumption that all MB wants to do is use violence. You know MB is opposed to violence, only with the exception of Israel Palestine conflict.

Only thing that will keep Israel alive is its potential capacity to use nukes. Now is that such a great obstacle for the Jihadis? I don't think so - not at this stage. The fall of Israel or a drastic reduction in its territory in the medium term is not unlikely. The Jihadis will wait for the right time when the only serious defender of Israel - USA is sufficiently tied up - either politically or militarily to go for it.

Wow... thats all they want, they want to kick israel out of the Levant - LOL!

[shyamd]

Shyam I dont think *it was a step in the right direction* The ONLY step in the right direction is

"Unilateral acceptance of Israel as a country and its sovereign rights"

Mate, the problem is not Israel as a country, it is Israel in the present state of form, which everyone including the US administration seems to have a problem with.

I do not think Israel has to give anything. Hamas is like Pakistan, it will first claim the right to fly the green flag on red fort and magnanimously in the spirit of give and take settle only for Kashmir.

Yeah, no result for the Palestinians after all these years, and people want to give someone else a try. You know there is an argument that Israel wanted these extremists in and was helping Hamas covertly during its inception. They wanted the extremists in power, to show the whole world that they are surrounded by these extremists.

And Why is Jahil Hamid not convincing the Russians Hainjee?

No Shyam you miss a fundamental point. Jahil Hamid convinces Palestinians because they are already on his frequency.

They are the flock for him.

Since when does he convince Palestenians? You probably mean TSP. Its not just about convincing your own population who probably are on your own frequency, but people outside - the neutral guys, public opinion in other countries. I don't think you understand how far ISI actually penetrates its propaganda in western states.

If you ask me, that makes me feel even more sick of those turds. Why are sick of Kargil? Because they lost thats why, the entire lot has so much more worse than Kargil every day that they need to be sick off.

Yeah, they lost, but they are also ashamed that something like that was planned. But these are more Paki's who live away from the propaganda - i.e. abroad.

You miss the point, they are not doing a PR on Arabs. Neither do I think thats wrong.

No Mark Regev and IDF lady just come on Al Jazeera just to convince the westerners watching Al Jazeera lol!!! Thats the funniest thing I have heard!

I dont understand what clarification is required. Hamas and its backers, including the Pali's who vote for them, are very well aware of the inherent hatred for Israel and Jews and the only solution that they want is its complete destruction.

Nah, that is what the Israeli propaganda wants you to believe. Just watch Ross Kemp on Gaza - they'll tell you about what Gazans really think (considering many of them lived and worked/working in Israel)

Because its worth throwing in the dustbin, at best.

Hehehe. Please do explain. I want to hear this one.

[shyamd]

You proved nothing - one guy from CNN doesn't dictate history, no more so than Helen Thomas can with her nonsense.

So you still don't accept that Israel blockaded Hamas just because they came into power? Despite the numerous proofs that were given in that video which cross checked local/regional and international newspapers - they are all lieing now? And the fact that Israel broke the ceasefire numerous times prior to the war?

Deflecting my points by calling them personal attacks doesn't add to your argument. This is Bharat Rakshak, not Palestine Rakshak, and thusfar your arguments can be summed up by, "Palestine conflict is #1 to me! But Kashmir conflict? Bah, that only happened because we deserve it!"

Wow. Thats desperate. My comments are for everyone to see. I don't even need to respond to that - truth is in my earlier replies to you - let readers be the judge of it. Oh please - tell me when I said Palestinian conflict is number 1 to me? BTW this is isn't Israel Rakshak either.

Sorry, but India-related conflicts are of course a higher priority to me, and the Palestinians can take a number and get in line.

Same for me too. Whats your point?

I don't have to win a debate - you're not debating me, you're writing me a postcard from Wagah.

Lol another personal attack. Hehe! Keep em coming.

I've never heard of any Paki ashamed of Kargil. I've never heard of any Paki ashamed of Gibraltar. I've never heard of any Paki ashamed of Ajmal Kasab. I've never heard of any Paki ashamed of 9/11. I've never heard of any Paki ashamed of 7/7. I've never heard of any Paki ashamed of East Pakistani genocide. I've never heard of any Paki ashamed of 1948 invasion of J&K. I've never heard of any Paki ashamed of partition.

You haven't met many paki's have you?

All of the above are "evil hindoo/yindoo plots"

Yeah, according to the TSP media.

You seem to be seeing only what you want to see, and not what's really there.

Was thinking the same of you too. Rich coming from you - Gaza was blockaded because of rockets sent by Hamas... Lol!!!

[A_Gupta]

You know there is an argument that Israel wanted these extremists in and was helping Hamas covertly during its inception. They wanted the extremists in power, to show the whole world that they are surrounded by these extremists.

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2006 ... of-israel/
Hamas, Son of Israel

Read the whole thing.

“Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years. Israel ‘aided Hamas directly – the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization),’ said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic [and International] Studies. Israel’s support for Hamas ‘was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative,’ said a former senior CIA official.”

If India had supported fundamentalist jihadi groups in Pakistan and is now screaming about Pakistani terrorism, then and only then would India be Israel.

Ami Isseroff, writing on MideastWeb, shows how the Israelis deliberately promoted the Islamists of the future Hamas by helping them turn the Islamic University of Gaza into a base from which the group recruited activists – and the suicide bombers of tomorrow. As the only higher-education facility in the Gaza strip, and the only such institution open to Palestinians since Anwar Sadat closed Egyptian colleges to them, IUG contained within its grounds the seeds of the future Palestinian state. When a conflict arose over religious issues, however, the Israeli authorities sided with the Islamists against the secularists of the Fatah-PLO mainstream. As Isseroff relates, the Islamists

“Encouraged Israeli authorities to dismiss their opponents in the committee in February of 1981, resulting in subsequent Islamisation of IUG policy and staff (including the obligation on women to wear the hijab and thobe and separate entrances for men and women), and enforced by violence and ostracization of dissenters. Tacit complicity from both university and Israeli authorities allowed Mujama to keep a weapons cache to use against secularists. By the mid 1980s, it was the largest university in occupied territories with 4,500 students, and student elections were won handily by Mujama.”

India may have good relations with Israel for tactical or strategic reasons, which is fine. But show me someone who thinks India should emulate Israel with regard to approach to such problems, and I will show you someone who has his head up his ass.

[Sanjay M]

Israelis Flock Create Their Own Flotillas

Israeli groups mull sailing toward Turkey to "remind the world of Turkish hypocrisy."

“Our plan is to deliver much-needed humanitarian assistance to the Kurds of Turkey, who by the way outnumber Israelis and Palestinians combined,” he said.

[brihaspati]

shyamd wrote
Yeah, and you also said :
Quote:
They should be treated as jihadists....
But treat them as collaborators and participants, and never let it be forgotten in future as long as their descendants live or die out.


That is akin to Jews wearing badges to identify themselves as jews. Is this the society you would want?

You freely attribute statements to me that I have never mentioned - like killing all Muslims, etc. Is that a technique you learned from the Muslim Brotherhood or from your Hamas source? So in your faith system, "jews" have already committed all the atrocities that Islamists have perpetrated?

Yes, but the west CAN make them accept them, both WB and Gaza can't survive on its own. Egypt has problems with the MB because Egypt is an autocratic regime - now getting into egypt is a different story. But, the point was that its unviable in the present state or form.

If WB and Gaza cannot survive on their own, and Hamas does not want to erase Israel, why are they fighting for independence? Does it not imply then that the formal declarations of Hamas need not actually mean their real intent and purpose? That Hamas is then actually deceptive?

So whoever has problems with MB is not because MB is in the wrong in any way, but it is always the "other" who is at fault?

Quote:
it shows which way the real wind is blowing there.

Yes, people are sick and tired of the regime and its corruption, the same reason why Hamas came to power.

Again a continuation of the same mindset - if others have any problem with MB or Hamas, it is the "other's" fault!

You are making the assumption that all MB wants to do is use violence. You know MB is opposed to violence, only with the exception of Israel Palestine conflict.

Incorrect, they also made the same exception for the Baathists of Syria. MB's slogan as far as I know, contains the expression "Jihad is our way" - and it does not specifically characterize this Jihad as non-military Jihad. "General Strategic Goal for the Group in North America" from MB: "The process of settlement is a 'Civilization-Jihadist Process' with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions."

Given your tendency to see no fault with MB or its essentially Palestinian wing Hamas, I am guessing that you will dismiss this as Zionist propaganda.

Wow... thats all they want, they want to kick israel out of the Levant - LOL!

Given your statement that the two places they have - WB+Gaza is unsustainable as independent entities, they cannot have any hope or purpose to do otherwise! Wow - how does Hamas express that kicking desire to you!

MB has supposedly a program to subvert, and penetrate civilian institutions or society in countries where non-Muslims are dominant numerically or are in state power to create sympathetic voices or spokespersons. This whole discussion is getting more and more interesting. It would be interesting to know how many non-Muslim Indians feel the same soft spot for MB and Hamas as you do. Thanks! I was talking this evening with someone who specializes on the Hamas. What she said about the impact assessment of MB and Hamas seduction on the subcontinent now appears so relevant. I read up on your earlier posts on this also. Thanks for drawing my attention to this weak link. The more chinks in the Indian armour exposed - the better.

[abhishek_sharma]

Israel and Turkey: It's Complicated
The flotilla foul-up pits former friends against each other.
By Christopher Hitchens

http://www.slate.com/id/2256168/

[ramana]

Israel and Turkey: It's Complicated
The flotilla foul-up pits former friends against each other.
By Christopher Hitchens

http://www.slate.com/id/2256168/

Its not complicated. Turkey is finding its inner Pakistaniyat. This is natural for all born again Islamists.