Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

vina · Post by **vina** » 02 Jun 2010 09:25

So does that mean that the LRDE "walking beam" antenna and systems are tested and proven?. If so, which platform did they use for that?

Pakis have got the Ericcson Erieye on the Saab 2000. Ironic, somewhat. That same antenna is offered on the Embraer as well. India took the airframe but ditched the Swedish antenna.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jun 2010 09:28

you should ask people who work in sasken, cognizant or samsung! LRDE radar test tower is visible from there. but I doubt they will test it here, likely someplace discreet like kolar.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 08 Jun 2010 12:03

X-post

Indian navy planning to procure more AEW&C planes

"We are planning to procure four carrier-based AEW&C aircraft to carry out airborne surveillance, detection and tracking of airborne and surface contacts and control air interceptions and air strikes," Navy officials told PTI here Monday. At present, the Navy operates the carrier-borne Kamov-31, which was procured from Russia for early warning roles.

Using AEW&C aircraft on aircraft carriers will help in expanding the area under surveillance near the area of their deployment, they added. "The control over the area would also be increased as the AEW&C aircraft can detect enemy fighter and maritime patrol aircraft and direct the fighter planes attached with it towards them and take them out," officials said.

The aircraft can be used as command and control platforms, they said adding, "The aircraft should be capable of providing an integrated air and surface picture of the area under surveillance in adverse weather conditions." The Navy wants the aircraft to be capable of Catapult Assisted Take off but Arrested Recovery (CATOBAR) technique for the launch and recovery of aircraft.

vina · Post by **vina** » 08 Jun 2010 12:12

The Navy wants the aircraft to be capable of Catapult Assisted Take off but Arrested Recovery (CATOBAR) technique for the launch and recovery of aircraft.

Okay. Only problem is that none of the Navy's carriers are Catapult equipped!. Not the VikAd, Not Vikrant. Not ADS. So which carrier will they operate out of ?. Unkils?. Frog's?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 08 Jun 2010 13:18

vina wrote:
The Navy wants the aircraft to be capable of Catapult Assisted Take off but Arrested Recovery (CATOBAR) technique for the launch and recovery of aircraft.
Okay. Only problem is that none of the Navy's carriers are Catapult equipped!. Not the VikAd, Not Vikrant. Not ADS. So which carrier will they operate out of ?. Unkils?. Frog's?

IAC-2. Given its size the IN would want to operate two AEW&C aircraft off it at the very least.

Gilles · Post by **Gilles** » 08 Jun 2010 16:07

posted by error

Gilles · Post by **Gilles** » 08 Jun 2010 16:08

posted by error

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 08 Jun 2010 18:14

vina wrote:
The Navy wants the aircraft to be capable of Catapult Assisted Take off but Arrested Recovery (CATOBAR) technique for the launch and recovery of aircraft.
Okay. Only problem is that none of the Navy's carriers are Catapult equipped!. Not the VikAd, Not Vikrant. Not ADS. So which carrier will they operate out of ?. Unkils?. Frog's?

Wonder if they are clearing ground to please our American "friends" for the E-2D Adv Hawkeye from the IAC2.. The IN's interest in the platform is not unknown.

negi · Post by **negi** » 08 Jun 2010 18:42

It is clear IN wants eyes in the skies imho for a start these birds can be stationed in major naval aviation bases viz Dabolim, Seabird,Cochin or even Arakkonam. I would like a pair to be stationed in Andamans too.

Basically IN is looking for its own AEW aircraft.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 08 Jun 2010 19:15

vina wrote:Okay. Only problem is that none of the Navy's carriers are Catapult equipped!. Not the VikAd, Not Vikrant. Not ADS. So which carrier will they operate out of ?. Unkils?. Frog's?

Is it too much of a fantasy to have aerostat connected with ADS which can be pulled up and down as needed, on these lines:
http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/956/ ... znetso.jpg

Raman · Post by **Raman** » 08 Jun 2010 19:36

No. That would be a bad idea. For fleet level AEW coverage, you want the radarplatform to be completely independent, flying race tracks at random offsets a hundred miles away from the carrier. The carrier's best defence is to not be located, and a honking big radar flying high and emitting loudly is not what you want. The radar range law dictates that passive receivers will locate the emitter at twice the range of the radar, so you can expect a coordinated attack on the carrier as soon as the radar is detected.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 08 Jun 2010 19:49

Raman wrote:No. That would be a bad idea. For fleet level AEW coverage, you want the radarplatform to be completely independent, flying race tracks at random offsets a hundred miles away from the carrier. The carrier's best defence is to not be located, and a honking big radar flying high and emitting loudly is not what you want. The radar range law dictates that passive receivers will locate the emitter at twice the range of the radar, so you can expect a coordinated attack on the carrier as soon as the radar is detected.

Ooops!

Thanks for the explanation.

vic · Post by **vic** » 08 Jun 2010 20:01

I think it would make way more sense to develop a HALE-Turbofan based UAV in colloboration with Israel which can take off from IAC.

Something like enlarged Rustom fitted with Al-55 engines + folding wings may fulfill most of the requirements!

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 09 Jun 2010 05:56

DRDO develops SATCOM datalink for Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) System

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 15 Jun 2010 02:25

Chindits: First IAF AWACS Begins Operational Flying, After 300 Hours

That's a shock and awe picture right there. No Erieye will give you this feeling

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 25 Jun 2010 13:07

EADS DS supplies Consultancy Services to Indian Armed Forces

07:53 GMT, June 24, 2010 23 June 2010 – EADS Defence & Security (DS) will supply consultancy services to the Indian Armed Forces in developing the system architecture of its Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) programme.

DS has been awarded yesterday a two-digit-million Euro contract by the Indian Defence Research Design Organisation (DRDO) to provide support in the development of system architecture with particular regard to certification and mission equipment optimisation.

This article does not explicitly mention the indigenous program. I don't think we need any EADS help with the Phalcons.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 26 Jun 2010 16:32

EADS awarded support contract for AEW aircraft program by DRDO

EADS Defence & Security (DS) will supply consultancy services to the Indian Armed Forces in developing the system architecture of its Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) programme.

DS has been awarded yesterday a two-digit-million Euro contract by the Indian Defence Research Design Organisation (DRDO) to provide support in the development of system architecture with particular regard to certification and mission equipment optimisation.

“From our systems responsibility for the overall Military Management System of the A400M transport aircraft we have thorough experience in certification of aircraft according to civil and military rules,” explains Bernd Wenzler, CEO of Defence Electronics, an integrated Business Unit of DS. "This, together with our broad technology base in sensors and data fusion makes us the ideal partner for DRDO."

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 26 Jun 2010 21:34

^^ This is more like it.. Getting the best experience, and boosting the indigenous learning curve while @ the same time shortening the developmental path is the way to go in order to achieve SELF RELIANCE!!!

marimuthu · Post by **marimuthu** » 01 Jul 2010 18:36

An update on AEW&C program by Shiv Aroor

Link

nits · Post by **nits** » 18 Jul 2010 23:18

The Components Of India's AEW&C System

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 19 Jul 2010 09:14

India to get two more AWACS, other radars to make airspace impregnable
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 184271.cms

India will go in for two more AWACS (airborne warning and control systems), the "formidable eyes in the sky", after the last of the three Israeli Phalcons already ordered is inducted in December.

IAF is also on course to induct a wide array of radars, from 19 LLTRs (low-level transportable radars) and four MPRs (medium-power radars) to four Aerostat and 30 indigenous medium-range Rohini systems, towards making Indian airspace as impregnable as possible.

All this is in tune with the crucial plan underway to set up five nodes of IACCS (integrated air command and control system) across the country, with the first one coming up in the western sector facing Pakistan, to plug existing gaps in the country's air defence coverage.

Seamless data transfer from civilian and military radars as well as AWACS, all networked under IACCS, will make it possible to get the "air situation picture" at a central place in realtime. This will ensure that swift counter-measures can be mounted to thwart aerial threats soon after they are detected.

"We have already moved the case for two more AWACS," IAF chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik told TOI. These will be in addition to the three Phalcon AWACS already contracted under the $1.1 billion project finalised with Israel and Russia in March 2004.

The complex project, under which the Israeli 360-degree Phalcon early-warning radar and communication suites were mounted on Russian IL-76 heavy-lift military aircraft was hit by several technical delays.

Consequently, the first AWACS arrived in India only in May 2009 and the second in March 2010. The third is slated to be inducted by this year-end.

"Phalcon AWACS are tremendous force-multipliers. We are having an excellent experience with them. They will get their final operational clearance by October-November," said ACM Naik.

IAF's capabilities to detect and track troop build-ups or aircraft movements even deep inside enemy territory, much further than ground-based radars, have certainly registered a quantum jump with AWACS.

Apart from detection of incoming cruise missiles and aircraft from over 400-km away in all-weather conditions, AWACS are also used to direct air defence fighters during combat operations against enemy jets.

Moreover, IAF and Navy are also on course to induct nine more Aerostat radars after getting two Israeli EL/M-2083 radars in 2004-2005 for $145 million. Similarly, IAF is slated to begin inducting 19 LLTRs from October 2011 onwards, while deliveries of light-weight LLTRs will commence soon. Four MPRs are expected to be delivered by December 2011.

Incidentally, India is also pursuing a Rs 1,800 crore mini-AWACS project indigenously. Under this, the indigenous AEW&C systems developed by DRDO will be mounted on three Embraer-145 jets, being obtained from Brazil for $210 million.

nits · Post by **nits** » 19 Jul 2010 12:14

dinesha wrote:India to get two more AWACS, other radars to make airspace impregnable

I read that we had option for ordering 3 more and we are going for 3... suddenly how we are down to 2..?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jul 2010 12:39

we never order in large lots due to funding being allocated in terms of fiscal years or smaller tranches generally. one can safely expect a few more later. there should be no hiccups as no re-tendering is required.

long term, there will be 10 atleast in IAF. the desi Embraer awacs will no doubt be 20+.

we will have one of the most powerful awacs fleets in a decade - anywhere. in conventional ops , IAF will likely be the 2nd most powerful world AF in 2025.

nits · Post by **nits** » 19 Jul 2010 12:49

Singha wrote: we will have one of the most powerful awacs fleets in a decade - anywhere. in conventional ops , IAF will likely be the 2nd most powerful world AF in 2025.

Indeed a Proud moment to look forward to...

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Jul 2010 13:35

I really hope we can replicate the AWACS example (large numbers) for our Maritime Surveillence Fleet.....Japan has 100+ P-3 Orions. We need more than 24 of those P-8I plus something of the class of Orions..

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 19 Jul 2010 13:58

Singha wrote:we never order in large lots due to funding being allocated in terms of fiscal years or smaller tranches generally. one can safely expect a few more later. there should be no hiccups as no re-tendering is required.

long term, there will be 10 atleast in IAF. the desi Embraer awacs will no doubt be 20+.

we will have one of the most powerful awacs fleets in a decade - anywhere. in conventional ops , IAF will likely be the 2nd most powerful world AF in 2025.

GD tum jiyo hazaaro saal....har saal ke din ho pachas hazaar...

Take pride gentleman, for we are witnessing the birth of a phenomenal force multiplier awacs collection. I eagerly await the day where this modern day Varuna will see everything around....

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jul 2010 14:04

we need 100 LRMP to deal with PLAN. but the building blocks have to be 2 huge naval bases in the andamans with attached naval air stations for LRMP, ships and submarines. Saves them 2 hrs and 2000km of range when sortieing out into patrol areas in south china sea and both sides of indonesia.

now is the time to leverage our awacs expertise and yahudi links and come up with a comprehensive LRMP suite consisting of radar, satcom gear, sonobuoys, processing consoles and computers, airborne torpedo etc. we have 10 yrs of 'peace' to prepare for all out cold war with PRC.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Jul 2010 16:04

Raman and Vic are right.The US's large carrier aircraft inventory,with a large radius of air defence coverage, allows it to use its Hawkeye AWACS well.What we need is a long endurance stealthy surveillance/AEW system,which naval carrier based UAVs could provide.In addition,a larger multi-role helo with longer endurance than the KA-31 equipped with an AEW radar could complement the UAV and increase the radius of coverage.The Hawkeye requires a catapult and a cat is large,costly and requires a more powerful powerplant too,requiring a large/super carrier sized flat top,something that would be to large and expensive for the IN to operate.Throw in a network of dedicated naval/maritime satellites in addition to our airborne AEW assets and we would have a pretty good system.Closer to home,land based Phalcons with refuelling by tankers could also provide a considerable AEW capability.Aerostats and airships,which the US and others are examining very seriously,could also provide significant support to conventional AEW sytems.The future is however going to tilt in favour of more HALE UAV/UCAVs to fill the role.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 31 Jul 2010 07:14

Havent seen these before, prezzo from Aero India 09 on Indian AEWC onlee by Dr. S. Christopher:

Gilles · Post by **Gilles** » 05 Aug 2010 00:43

A new picture of the IAF's latest A-50 Phalcon, KW-3553. It was taken at Rostov-on-the-Don, near Beriev, the company that converts IL-76s to A-50. The navigator's nose glass has been removed, the front left main cabin passenger door is gone, the aerial fuelling probe is installed, the ventral strakes are installed, the PS-90 engines have replaced the D-30KPs it left Tashkent with, the extra aerials are installed. The RADOME is missing, although the pilons that support it are visible.

Probably that this aircraft, once completely converted and tested by Beriev, will be flown to Tel Aviv for the installation of the Phalcon electronics.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 05 Aug 2010 01:13

^^ Thanks Gilles, for the nice photo.

A question: If we remove half the space allocated to staff reducing their number to half, and in that space install extra fuel tank for long range, then won't it make a good awacs for our Air Defence Ships? In fact two on patrol in Indian Ocean, connecting communications for two ADS and their fighters and two on reserve would make super-formidable force-multiplier.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 05 Aug 2010 02:27

^ Why would you do that, especially when you have areal refueling option?

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 05 Aug 2010 03:34

^^Since India has only 6 air refuellers and might be hardpressed during war on north east, north and western borders. It would be safer that these Naval Phalcons carry their own extra!

Gilles · Post by **Gilles** » 05 Aug 2010 04:16

Its published that the Russian A-50s, which have the fuel guzzling D-30KP, can stay airborne about 8 hours which probably indicate that they take off with full fuel of 87.6 tonnes. Assuming that the IAF's A-50 is about the same weight, with its more fuel efficient engines, it could probably stay airborne 9 to 9.5 hours (plus reserves), but I made a lot of assumptions.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Aug 2010 08:30

goes without saying we need lots of refuelers (A330 sized) and 10 more Awacs. usaf routinely can count on a inventory of around 150-200 refuelers utilizing ANG units I think.

sum · Post by **sum** » 05 Aug 2010 08:53

Singha wrote:goes without saying we need lots of refuelers (A330 sized) and 10 more Awacs. usaf routinely can count on a inventory of around 150-200 refuelers utilizing ANG units I think.

Was the Airbus refueller v/s Il-78 refueller issue finally resolved at Mod/MoF ;level?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Aug 2010 09:34

No. single vendor A330 deal cancelled. but given no half-finished IL76 airframes left (china took 35 , pakis took 2), dont see how they can call a multi vendor tender unless fresh model of IL76 is available for trials. KC135, KC767 and KC10 are history. KC777 is being considered for trans-pacific missions.

there is not much activity in that market.

screw the rulebook, we should buy 10 A330 lightly used airframes from someone like GE leasing arm and pay airbus or their specialized tier1 conversion vendor to make refuelers out of them, fit in IAF radios and nav eqpt and run with the ball. our fighter squadrons need practice and have the probes, but not the ma hens.

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 05 Aug 2010 10:09

Wasn't there news floating around that the next batch of Phalcons would be based on a platform other than the IL-76?

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 05 Aug 2010 22:55

Manish_Sharma wrote:^^Since India has only 6 air refuellers and might be hardpressed during war on north east, north and western borders. It would be safer that these Naval Phalcons carry their own extra!

Keeping those extra fuel tanks in the air means those engines will need to take huge power bites out of the chapati it is carrying. The fuel load must have been optimized based on the power generation needed during on station time and hence the refueling probe. Anyways, one would assume a dedicated tanker during bad times for these high value missions.

Plus, facilities for a replacement crew might negate the benefits of reduced crew during such extra long missions.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Aug 2010 23:10

picked this us from a book on fighters. yawning gap in our force matrix.

Thrown into the thicko f D e se r t S t o r m , even before they reached the teething stage, were two development Grumman E-8 J-STARS, also derived from the Boeing 707-300 series (from which the two prototypes and the follow-on 20 production conversions - mostly from second-hand airliner stock - are being converted). Their contribution led Gen M erill M cPeak to say: 'We will not ever again want to fight a war without a J-STARS kind of system.' Army commanders reckoned that, by comparison, they had fought previous conflicts blindfolded.

The two E-8s flew 49 sorties of 10.4 hours' average duration during Desert Storm. Assigned to Col George K. M uellner's 4411th JSTARS Squadron (JSS), stationed at Riyadh alongside the E-3 Sentry AWACS fleet, the aircraft and crews - made up from a mix of Service personnel and G rumman contractors - proved capable of employing the big belly-mounted Norden AN/APY-3 phased-array radar to track Iraqi armour and other ground-based weapons at distances of up to 155 miles from the forward line of troops
(PLOT).

The radar was used in two primary modes. In the wide-area moving target indicator (MTI) mode, sharpened by pulse-Doppler processing, clutter suppression interferometry and adaptive clutter. cancellation (techniques used to pick up moving objects and plot their range, relative position and speed against the backdrop of the terrain), the package produced a real-time ground map covering 31,000 square miles at a stand-off range of up to 300 miles. This was displayed on 10 workstations (production E- 8Cs will feature 17), plotted as dots which could clearly be seen moving along roads and other networks, based on their incremental movements following each separate radar scan. In the Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) mode, the Norden system generated a high-resolution ground map offering 3 ft resolving power to assist with the identification of high-value fixed targets. The two modes could be displayed on any of the workstation console screens, with the separate functions being furnished by
computer.
The way the two modes complemented one
another was best explained by Capt James Dew:

With M TI we would see very, very large numbers in convoys coming down a road. It was mind-boggling. In fact, sometimes there were so many you couldn't even count them all. Then, all of the sudden, you don't see any more traffic. What does that tell you? It tells you they left the road or stopped. Then you would use your SAR, and Shazaam! All of a sudden, you've got the exact number of vehicles, and where they are
parked.

That information would be relayed to fighters and Army rocket batteries so that they were able to address the situation quickly. This capability saved the day on 22 January 1991, picking up a 60-vehicle convoy grinding its way towards friendly positions. Fifty- eight tanks were knocked-out in the ensuing air strike. It saved countless lives in the C oalition ground forces according to Maj Gen Stephen Silvasy, US Army Deputy C hief of Staff for Concepts, by ensuring that the enemy could not outflank them. J-STARS similarly monitored the Iraqi retreat from Kuwait City

setting them up for a 'gopher shoot'. H owever, as was the case with AWACS, there existed little scope for confusion during Desert Storm.

In a more intense conflict, with increased, intenneshed movements on the ground, there is much more scope for ambiguous target classification. Improved computer processing (J-STARS is fortunately a generation ahead of AWACS in this regard) will further aid the console operators' jobs by the time all 22 operational aircraft are fielded, in 2001. SAR resolution is being sharpened to 1 foot, while software programmes aimed at tidying-up the displays for clarity are being tested. These will offer clear colour coding for traffic density, and offer the option of compressed replay condensing minutes into seconds, to clearly indicate the speed, direction and numbers of advancing or retreating enemy ground forces, before committing fighters and Army rocket batteries to knock them out. The relaying of data will be performed by means of secure UH F radio and data modem links.