Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by ramana »

Watch the 'kickass' after the Bhopal verdict. Indian elite likes the is term after Ombaba used it against BP. They are shocked that the Bhopal tragedy led to token punishment under current law due to dilution of charges by the Govt. They are going after the judge. We saw earlier the former CJI of Supreme Court make token defence of dilution of the charges. Now the current judge is doing a tortoise.

INC has put out damage control spokespersons mouthing platitudes about extradition etc after the horse has bolted the custody.

Google Cache

The CBI (B Lal) pointed the finger at the civil adminstration for the release of Warren Anderson who is golfing in Hampden Downs now.

Collector (Moti Singh) posts to Chief Secy Madhay Pradesh.

Civil Adminstration pointed to Delhi Cabinet member.

Right now Arjun Singh is the fall guy.

Lets see who he points to for its higher than him.

If its not resolved it could lead to severe political losses.
And now, this final betrayal: Instead of pursuing executives of the parent company in the US, who had planned the investment, whose engineers had designed the plant, whose officers had prepared the maintenance manuals, and whose targets to cut costs, activists allege, forced the company to cut corners, the court tried seven Indians, including the company’s non-executive chairman. Union Carbide, which has insisted all along that a disgruntled employee sabotaged the plant, says the matter is now over. Dow Chemicals has denied responsibility all along. And the US wants India to cap any disaster liability at any nuclear plant in which US companies invest.

On Monday, Union Carbide was fined: $11,000. Indra Sinha, who has campaigned for Bhopal victims, and whose novel about Bhopal, Animal’s People, was shortlisted for the Man Booker Prize in 2007, calculates that at 55 cents per death. Sometimes life is that cheap.
from above cache.
and
But now as India feels let down by a Bhopal court’s “light” sentences to ex-UCIL officials despite causing the world’s biggest manmade disaster that left over 15,000 dead, the verdicts delivered by these judges have returned to haunt the nation.

It was in the court presided over by then chief justice of India (CJI) Pathak that a settlement between Union Carbide Corporation (UCIL’s parent company) and the government was reached in 1989. The government had sought $3.3 billion, but got only $470 million. The settlement also removed the criminal liability in the case.

Within three months of his retirement, Pathak became a member of the International Criminal Court at The Hague. :mrgreen:

A five-judge bench headed by then CJI Ranganath Misra revived the criminal liability in 1991, but upheld the $470 million settlement. Misra is now a Congress MP and chairman of the commission that recommended reservation for Dalit Muslims and Christians.

A two-judge bench headed by then CJI Ahmadi reduced the charge of culpable homicide not amounting to murder to causing death by negligence.

Since retirement, Ahmadi has been presiding over Bhopal Memorial Hospital Trust that runs a 350-bed superspeciality hospital. The trust was set up by Union Carbide. :mrgreen:

Rs600 crore has gone into the trust, but its accounts are not in the public domain. The trust deed mandates that an SC judge should be its chairman and Ahmadi has been at its helm since retirement. :mrgreen:
Where is Rahul Mehta when we need him?
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Muppalla »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 025309.cms

That is an important news for UP political watchers. IMs moved to INC and SP became IM-nanaga during 2009 elections. BSP, INC and SP compete for them but INC got them. Now this new Peace party got IM votes making both SP and INC anxious. BSP won and BJP came second. I still think this is one off but Muslims having their own party to put pressure tactics ( asking for more apeasement) will change the dynamics and coalitions. The BCs who are alligned to SP will move away from SP if it cannot deliver them. The best bet for them will be ....
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by brihaspati »

Acharya wrote
nationalist elements are inside INC and rss is also inside INC and supports it. The direction of the country and its long term vision has to be corrected to create a force of history in favor of India
INC had always allowed more "consolidated" (read militant) groups to operate within. It is useful for the central leadership to use the energy of the "radicals", but in the end - all such groups have ultimately been forced to come out. The INC tactic is to use the "radicals" as a show to the powers whose help is needed (in the Brit period Brits - post Brit USA or Russia) : look if you don't help us to stay/gain power then we can lean towards the "radicals"! Similarly the "radicals" are shown the externals : look if you don't fall in line and help us to get power - we will lean to the externals! Given that the "centre" always has a policy of internal digestion of radical elements - what you are saying is quite risky.

My hunch is that when the "radicals" are finally sucked dry of their idealism and enthusiasm, they are spat out with a few tagging undercovers thrown together. Such undercovers can be manufactured with "rashtryia" apparatus help - create situations by which the "idealist" can be essentially blackmailed. If the orgs you mention are working to that end (unless the statement is a psyops) I would be rather cautious about using them outside and "after".

I think, it is time we stopped hoping to "change" INC from inside. It has been too long in rashtryia power and grown too many possible undercover elements maintaining external and internal vested interests. Same strategy perhaps as we would apply to POWI non-criminal, non-fanatic common abdul - allow them to work towards the nation and prove themselves, but we cannot trust them with core responsibilities. Its just too risky - until multiple generations have passed out after the older setup is completely destroyed. So no lingering trace of "collaborator" or foreign affiliation tendencies remain.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by svinayak »

brihaspati wrote:
I think, it is time we stopped hoping to "change" INC from inside. It has been too long in rashtryia power and grown too many possible undercover elements maintaining external and internal vested interests. Same strategy perhaps as we would apply to POWI non-criminal, non-fanatic common abdul - allow them to work towards the nation and prove themselves, but we cannot trust them with core responsibilities. Its just too risky - until multiple generations have passed out after the older setup is completely destroyed. So no lingering trace of "collaborator" or foreign affiliation tendencies remain.
Idea is to flood every institution and party with natioanlists
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Pranav »

Acharya wrote:
brihaspati wrote:
I think, it is time we stopped hoping to "change" INC from inside. It has been too long in rashtryia power and grown too many possible undercover elements maintaining external and internal vested interests. Same strategy perhaps as we would apply to POWI non-criminal, non-fanatic common abdul - allow them to work towards the nation and prove themselves, but we cannot trust them with core responsibilities. Its just too risky - until multiple generations have passed out after the older setup is completely destroyed. So no lingering trace of "collaborator" or foreign affiliation tendencies remain.
Idea is to flood every institution and party with natioanlists
But nationalists would not be able to capture the institution itself - recall how Bose was forced out and Patel was sidelined. The leadership would remain in the grip of those chosen by foreign elites.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by RamaY »

ramana wrote: ...
Where is Rahul Mehta when we need him?
All this happened over a 25 year period. It shows the control external elements had on Indian system. No NGO or Judge or Politician understood and exposed these linkages.

One more reason for a complete overhaul of Indian socio-political-governance systems.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by RamaY »

brihaspati wrote: I think, it is time we stopped hoping to "change" INC from inside. It has been too long in rashtryia power and grown too many possible undercover elements maintaining external and internal vested interests. Same strategy perhaps as we would apply to POWI non-criminal, non-fanatic common abdul - allow them to work towards the nation and prove themselves, but we cannot trust them with core responsibilities. Its just too risky - until multiple generations have passed out after the older setup is completely destroyed. So no lingering trace of "collaborator" or foreign affiliation tendencies remain.
I agree with Bji on this. RSS made conciliatory remarks towards Rajmata where as INC wastes no moment to discredit and destroy RSS. It will be fatal for RSS or any other nationalistic entity to hope for INC-transformation. This (INC) institution is too corrupt and infiltrated to be reformed.

A better strategy for RSS is to go directly to public. Build local action units of 10000+ pracharaks. Take top 2-3 local issues and keep fighting for them till they win public and political space. RSS must stand away from any single political party and make alliances based on issues.

More than any nationalistic grouping has to come up with some serious funds. My estimate is ~15 crores per parliament constituency per year.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Pranav »

RamaY wrote: I agree with Bji on this. RSS made conciliatory remarks towards Rajmata where as INC wastes no moment to discredit and destroy RSS. It will be fatal for RSS or any other nationalistic entity to hope for INC-transformation. This (INC) institution is too corrupt and infiltrated to be reformed.

A better strategy for RSS is to go directly to public. Build local action units of 10000+ pracharaks. Take top 2-3 local issues and keep fighting for them till they win public and political space. RSS must stand away from any single political party and make alliances based on issues.

More than any nationalistic grouping has to come up with some serious funds. My estimate is ~15 crores per parliament constituency per year.
I agree with this ... with the caveat that the RSS should not expect support from the BJP. Some of the top leaders of the BJP seem to be just as bad as the Congress. There are a few people in the BJP (and also Congress) about whom one is hopeful, though. Also, the electronic voting controversy will have to tackled head-on, which the BJP seems to be shying away from as of now. Chandra Babu Naidu seems to be taking the lead on that issue, and there are 12 other parties who are also supportive.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Sanku »

Atri wrote: @Sanku ji,

Coming close to consolidation is meaningless, IMHO. Power comes with permanence; Impermanence is Impotence and Rotation is castration. BJP came close has no meaning, since it could not hold the power for long in that region.
Yes and No Atriji, yes because in the end unless a change is seen in reality on the ground in a substantial manner, it does not matter. However for our purposes, of looking at trends, meta trends and possible outcomes, it does.

I think 1857 was not *wasted*, not by a long chalk, 1857 was the begining of the end. The empire could not be defeated in One war, it was not created in One war. It was the war which turned the tide.

Similarly for the Ayodhya movement.

----------------------

@Acharya vs Brihspati -- the debate essentially is whether to focus all the energy and go with one vehicle or distribute the energy on multiple fronts.

There are no good answers, future will tell, however Nationalism does need to be all pervasive, INC can not be junked totally. I am in favor of reuse not of clean slate and restart (at least for most things of Indian heritage, for TSP etc other kinds of logic apply)
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by ramana »

Sanku, If you think about it 1857 failure started the French Revoultionisation of India by that I mean the begining of the end of feudal age in India. Europe had to go thru WWI for same thing albiet with more violence.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Pulikeshi »

Great discussion - Couple of quick point I'd like to ramble:
  1. India/Indian have a tendency to take the neighbors (in the Indian Region of Interest)
    perfidy either with a wait and watch, apathy, ebullient optimism or rarely intellectually.
    1. Cold calculated pragmatic realism never seen that in citizen or state :evil:
    2. TSP is treated as a joke or a misguided other. Never as an existential threat
      The key to India becoming a great power lies in the demise of TSP. Why dance around it?
    3. China is treated as a misguided bigger state. Not as a competitive equal
      The key to stable Asia is the responsible growth of India and China.
      The key is to make sure Tibet is a buffer, that South East Asian countries
      have independence from Chinese suzerainty. Why dance around it?
    4. Asian stability is paramount an Asian interest. How can India think that
      outsourcing that to outside powers help even in the short run?
    5. Empires rise due to many factors, one factor is demographics and scarcity
      of resources. If India consider managing its demographic increase as
      an internal problem and does not look for external opportunity. There is
      serious risk of collapse under its own weight. A window of opportunity
      will turn into an extremely claustrophobic space very quickly.
  2. Culturally, Bharat is civilizationally optimized, it is not naturally oriented
    to support nation-states. Stable nation-states are rare, Empires even rarer.
    1. Revolutions are almost impossible in India. Evolution is what will work.
    2. The Indian citizen is edumacted and shedumacated
      but has not yet awakened to the responsibilities of a citizen
    3. He/She does not have a common myth, a shared destiny a membership.
    4. Thus far India has been able to inspire entitlement in the minorities
      and discontentment in its majority along divisive lines.
  3. A purpose and myth of what is Bharat/India is missing. What the suckulers
    portray is a drab, unimaginative nation whose only purpose is upliftment of
    citizens from poverty. :twisted:
    1. If all a nation-state is a social contract, than many nations today should
      cease to exist. Heck even dictators have a one-sided social contract!
    2. India/Indians lack a self aware history, a purpose and a myth as a
      nation-state. What they do have is a broken down civilizational memories
      that are too siloed and divisive and do not have a common thread...
  4. Anyone attempting to strategize on the future of the Indian sub-continent
    requires to understand some of these contraints before formulating a soln.
  5. I'd suggest starting at the new common myth as a first step in bootstrapping the future evolution
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Atri »

One of the finest posts, Pulikeshi ji... accept my regards... :)
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by brihaspati »

Sanku ji,
ever wondered why most "revolutionaries" target the family bond first : such as "I have come to set brother against brother,..."? Society needs to be first atomized for profound transitions.

Now we do not want a profound "revolution" - but we want a profound overturning and a profound revival using certain elements of our philosophy and culture. But the basic motivation for "atomization" still applies. The reason is that within pre-existing structures and organizations is the reflection of the society which has "strayed". Therefore, in a sense, you cannot retain the old binding structures of loyalty and commitment - the "family" - in this case the political party, and still want a fundamental change in consciousness.

The people are "reusable" but they have to first come out of that "family".
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Pranav »

brihaspati wrote:Sanku ji,
ever wondered why most "revolutionaries" target the family bond first : such as "I have come to set brother against brother,..."? Society needs to be first atomized for profound transitions.

Now we do not want a profound "revolution" - but we want a profound overturning and a profound revival using certain elements of our philosophy and culture. But the basic motivation for "atomization" still applies. The reason is that within pre-existing structures and organizations is the reflection of the society which has "strayed". Therefore, in a sense, you cannot retain the old binding structures of loyalty and commitment - the "family" - in this case the political party, and still want a fundamental change in consciousness.

The people are "reusable" but they have to first come out of that "family".
People have to mentally liberate themselves from the "family". But they can continue within the organization, as moles.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Suppiah »

duplicated...
Last edited by Suppiah on 12 Jun 2010 08:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Suppiah »

Re. Bhopal, IMHO it is wrong to blame the judge(s). they operate within the constraint of not only evidence presented to them, but also the laws and the punishments prescribed therein. As J. Ahmedi pointed out, there is no concept of vicarious (?) responsibility in Indian law. You are not liable (criminally) if you driver runs over someone unless conspiracy can be proved. This applies to road accidents and also to mass murders on the scale of Bhopal.

Ombaba's effort to go after BP's Haywire may also stumble on this aspect unless US laws specifically make this provision somewhere...so you will end up hearing lot of noise and not much action...

Past is past,, What is more significant is INC's effort to write this 'you can escape with mass murder paying a pittance' concept into law now that private nuke generating is gonna happen. They are trying to remove ambiguity in advance...in exchange of what?
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Suppiah »

Re. INC 'reforming' itself, that will have to wait for dynasty to be electorally defeated for at least 2-3 elections if not more. PVNR tried to steer away a little bit but he was a gonner even with one defeat...for getting roughly the same number of seats Madam Maino was hailed as a massive success....

The party has a built-in immunity system that systematically weeds out anyone and everyone with self-respect and mass base. It only manages to attract/keep a few stray ones like Siddharamiah (KA) simply because he ran into yet another dynasty that is even worse and chose the better of the two.

I do not see this changing anytime soon...barring some miracles...

The on again off again 'alliance' with the Stalinists gives double benefits - it keeps existing allies in check and also provides the dynasty with a ready battalion of yellow journalists who are ready to sing the dynasty's praise simply because they know one day the dynasty will sing Oriental tunes played by Alimuddin street....look at Stalinist yellow daily coverage of Bhopal case today you know what I am talking about...

This is also not gonna change unless it happens from bottom...
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Sanku »

brihaspati wrote:Sanku ji,
ever wondered why most "revolutionaries" target the family bond first : such as "I have come to set brother against brother,..."? Society needs to be first atomized for profound transitions.
I am going to make a strong statement Bji, hopefully given our meeting of views in general you will see where I am coming from--

The concept of revolution need atomization of society, to me appears to be a Western/Marxist approach, I dare say (with lot of respects thrown in) that you might think in this manner due to existing modalities of "revolution" in Bengal and thereabouts and your own brush with those.

I personally think (apart from the fact that India will ONLY make evolutionary changes for better or for worse) that Indian changes happen not due to atomization, but due to leveraging the key individuals and important points in society.

We have the current affairs almost single handedly due to Nehru and the leverage he had -- just of fun assume RG turns Indic and uses that platform (and pigs will fly before that happens) to push India -- it will be a totally different picture.

I know that "our" mindset has no well placed people who can push, but we need to also find that. That will be easier and more practical than atomization in our context.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by brihaspati »

Sanku ji,
you missed my second para :
Now we do not want a profound "revolution" - but we want a profound overturning and a profound revival using certain elements of our philosophy and culture. But the basic motivation for "atomization" still applies. The reason is that within pre-existing structures and organizations is the reflection of the society which has "strayed". Therefore, in a sense, you cannot retain the old binding structures of loyalty and commitment - the "family" - in this case the political party, and still want a fundamental change in consciousness. The people are "reusable" but they have to first come out of that "family".
I have even before spoken out against "revolution". Actually I have had brush with the "evolutionary" line in the "East" (Bengal+Bihar+Jharkhand) as well as for a brief period of time in Delhi. You are right that there really has not been any "revolution" in India, including those claimed by the Leftists. But my grassroots experiences showed that at every stage it was the pre-existing family-clan connections that ultimately took priority over any political vision - especially where the crucial clarity to look into long term consequences were concerned.

It was the strength of such networked commitments that was used to place JLN in power.

I have had close experiences through my "clan" with early INC, Gandhi dominated INC, Swatantra Party, Congress Socialists, "anarchists", Bose, Left of all shades except the ML's, Syndicate. When I have looked back on a collective and impartial analysis of all that together with the recorded experiences and analyses of others - I see that the greatest weakness in our path has been that overwhelming emotional priority given to blood-kin and such dependence relations. in the end, what happens, is a clever manipulator who gets to satisfy his/her hunger for power and personal dominance using the idealism and sacrifice of hundreds of thousands.

One of five (I dubbed them the Pandavas) most faithful assistants I had during my org days, was a Punjabi Sikh young man who set to music a couplet I had written in Hindi meaning

"the weighing-stone of idealism has been worn down with much use/
sharp traders of long standing use that stone to loot the treasures of our lives/"

to which he added :

"God punishes the idealist for allowing the charlatan to seduce/
not once, not twice, but allowing the same charlatan to seduce again and again"
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Karna_A »

Sanku wrote:
I think 1857 was not *wasted*, not by a long chalk, 1857 was the begining of the end. The empire could not be defeated in One war, it was not created in One war. It was the war which turned the tide.
1857 was the year the tide started turning towards indics from Islamic and British conquerors.
The British unknowingly helped Indics by breaking the back of Moghul era landlords and first time since 11th century that the commerce and population of delhi became favorable to Indics. From then on, due to Govt. policy of Merit based employment, indics would rule. Mandal in 1980s and Ayodhya can disrupt the gangetic plains again.

The gangetic plains have had their importance due to proximity to Delhi. What is required is to move the capital southwards towards Maratha and southern centers of power near confluence of Madhya Pradesh, Maharashtra and Chattishgarh to better reflect the New India rather than India of Mughal and British periods.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by brihaspati »

The Kyrghyzstan conflict is now going along the predicted route. The battle for CAR is hotting up between the four-party interest in the region. If Russia has put its own from the north, the others are going to back the south. This is going to be interesting as without a Partition I think the first round will be Russias.

If that happens, it will provide an opportunity to revive the old Afghan "campaign" strategy - and consequent long term Islamist indigestion. But the opponents of Russia are now in the horns of dilemma - if they back the "south" Islamists may very well gain ground. If They don't back south Russia gobbles up everything. Long term, the Islamists may declare a Jihad which could be fun. But there is no way of knowing who will ultimately gain the upper hand. Moreover with an already expensive Afghan campign from which all possible means of wriggling out is being tried out - how can long term move against Russian expansion be stopped without using the Jihadis?
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Pulikeshi »

You can (grab a cold one) and chill with this one! ;-) :mrgreen:

“It does not take a majority to prevail … but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.” – Samuel Adams
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Sanku »

brihaspati wrote:Sanku ji,
you missed my second para :
Now we do not want a profound "revolution" - but we want a profound overturning and a profound revival using certain elements of our philosophy and culture. But the basic motivation for "atomization" still applies. The reason is that within pre-existing structures and organizations is the reflection of the society which has "strayed".
No Bji, I did not miss it, I do see what you are saying, its just that I dont see atomization as being either practical or succeeding.

Refer to below--
But my grassroots experiences showed that at every stage it was the pre-existing family-clan connections that ultimately took priority over any political vision - especially where the crucial clarity to look into long term consequences were concerned.
Absolutely, but then this is the reality, it had not changed before, its unlikely to change now.

Even in MB existing clan networks were utilized, and no atomization was seen. I think we need to reuse the MB template, for the next 4000 years of Indic supremacy.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by RamaY »

^ Sanku-ji

To my knowledge that same strategy was used by Chanakya as well.

I doubt the utility of it in the current context. We are far away from that varna-asrama system and the fortunes of some of the clans have changed in the past 1000 years.

JMT
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Yagnasri »

[quote="Suppiah"]Re. Bhopal, IMHO it is wrong to blame the judge(s). they operate within the constraint of not only evidence presented to them, but also the laws and the punishments prescribed therein. As J. Ahmedi pointed out, there is no concept of vicarious (?) responsibility in Indian law. You are not liable (criminally) if you driver runs over someone unless conspiracy can be proved. This applies to road accidents and also to mass murders on the scale of Bhopal.

quote]

I do not agree. I am and advocate of 17 years standing it is rare for the supreme court to interfer and reduce the charge to a level without even giving the chace for teh prosecution to put its case for more serious offence. The stupid media which is shouting so loudly now kept quite then
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by brihaspati »

Three important "insignificant" issues occupying the media attention :

(a) JS'ji possible return to BJP being cleared by the BJP top-brass. Throw ideological principles to the wind - show flexibility, as demanded by the media and "intellectuals".
(b) Bhopal victims given a paltry mental and material compensation, while the thundering silence of the "future of India" reigns in the background. Someone trying to teach Arjun Singh a lesson for past crimes of disloyalty - perhaps! Or a case of teaching the wife by beating the maid.
(c) GOI decides to stick to limited liability in the nuke trade bill. Issues on which Left and ex-"wives" and ex-"mistresses" can get hopeful of negotiating and bargaining. An indirect means of distribution of largesse and benefits to keep covert support under cover of formal opposition.

Now Pakis have suddenly slipped into the silence zone, J&K valley to be given more largesse (doubtful how much of that will trickle to Jammu, but serve more as a jazyia), Chinese have become less of a dragon, Afghanistan fades away, - its all peace and quiet on the "usual suspects" front.

Signs of the theoretical convergence of all established competing political groups "forced" to come to a common ground - and essentially serve the Islamist, EJist and Communist imperialist agenda?

JS ji's return == Rehabilitation of Jinnah == rehabilitation of Pakistan. I have been an uncompromising critic of JLN's role towards the Partition, but even I would not have gone to the extent of comparing JLN with Jinnah and found Jinnah the better "patriot" and less or equally responsible. There are certain things in the ideological region which cannot be compromised on - in spite of the apparent short term advantages of being an ideological prostitute, because it destroys society and its cultural heart in the long run.
Being forced to do this, can mean that already there are elements in sufficient proximity to the BJP which have the long term interests of Islamists and therefore Paki rulers at heart.

Same goes for Bhopal accident case, and the nuclear liability case.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Sanku »

Bji, that is not a correct assesment of Jaswant Singh's episode, I said it here first that Jaswant Singhs book was no different than RSS standard treatise on Partition, repackaged.

The whole tamasha was to just sell the book free of BJP label. That done, he is back.

I had said this from day one.

All Jinaah == Nehru etc is not there in the book. Nehru and Jinaah are blamed for very different things.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by brihaspati »

Sanku ji,
in no way can JLN be ascribed the grand qualification of being the generator of the idea of a Pakistan - he resisted it tooth and nail and might have actually aggravated the situation by refusing to compromise in certain directions. That entire credit of spearheading the Pakistani idea to its political fruition from the Islamist position - is the portion of Jinnah.

We can blame Nehru for his personal failings, his vulnerabilities, his lack of foresight, his lack of understanding of Islamism and a delusion that his own construction of Hinduism and Islamism was how the real world ran, and his lack of political vision to see into the future. The single point where I object is that in a profound way, trying to show anything positive about Jinnah's post-Tilak phase (in fact what he does after Tilak, negates everything that he did before and therefore shows the entire character to be hollow and fundamentally Islamic in its deception) and placing Nehru's shortcomings side by side - is a fundamental failure of understanding.

JLN represents all the processes and weaknesses in non-Muslim elite that prepares the person for dhimmitude, but the damage and destruction resulting from that dhimmitude on the general non-Muslim population could never have been there to start with if the essentail Jihadi nature of characters like Jinnah did not manifest to begin with.

There is nothing positive in Jinnah from the Indian non-Muslim viewpoint - and whoever does try to show that "positiveness" is in a way showing another facet of dhimmitude.

Constructing the tiniest fraction of "positiveness" in the most implacable enemy of "Hindus" can only work even as a psy-ops if and only if that enemy itself sees those particular episodes of showing "positiveness" as genuine and not as part of the deception to gain trust of the non-Muslim and sow seeds of division and confusion in the minds of the non-Muslim as to the real nature of Islam. JS'jis comments have created more divisions and internal dismay within non-Muslim ranks obviously than it ever had any effect of dividing Pakistaniat. They only rejoice that the dhimmi is turning in the right direction.

I still maintain that JS represents another disturbing new facet of dhimmitude. JLN was one line of self-deluded dhimmitude while JS represents another strand. This was how in the ancient world Islamics weakened non-Muslim ideologues and leadership - because they in the grandeur of their own delusion failed to understand the real nature and startegy and target of Islamism. In he proces they didvided and confused and weakened their own societies preparing the ground for lack of unity before Islamic onslaught and fatal disbelief at the final slaughter.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Sanku »

I dont understand Bji,
in no way can JLN be ascribed the grand qualification of being the generator of the idea of a Pakistan
If you are blaming JS for that statement. It is not correct nowhere has he made the claim.
Constructing the tiniest fraction of "positiveness" in the most implacable enemy of "Hindus" can only work even as a psy-ops
This is debatable. If you are trying to spread a message in world and have people read you, you can not go all out at once and be "correct" you will have to tell the truth in a way that escapes the multiple filters of cognitive dissonance that are present and get through.

A lot of apparent +ve (no really +ve) does come from that.

The book you want to be written will probably get banned as soon as you talk to the very first publisher in India.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by brihaspati »

No, I didnt mean JS as having said that - but the stark reality of reality leading to the Partition. In that sense JLN was simply the deluded fool who let himself be manipulated and cornered by the horde led by Jinnah. But I don't have doubts about the basic sincerity he had to his deluded vision of independence. If I had to choose between Jinnah and JLN I would have chosen JLN with eyes shut. Therefore the smallest of positives constructed simply to cross filters seems dubious tactic for me.

What you say about the "cognitive dissonance" and getting your message across - is again something I explicitly pointed out - that in this form it is more damaging than helping. Even as a psy-ops it only serves its purpose if it divides the enemy - but what it has resulted is a gloating by the enemy which correctly recognizes from its long history of manipulation of non-Muslim societies as to the signs of intellectual dhimmitude that appears in to-be-subjugated populations.

If already an intellectual from the non-Muslim is being forced to show positiveness in an iconic figurehead of Jihadi Islam - that shows how far dhimmitude has grasped the society concerned. They have every reasons to gloat. in fact I can give exact parallels to JSji's merry exercise in the history of dhimmitude in other nations - examples which shyamd's claims forced me to scan through over the last two days. I have already a list of around 48 cases coming from the Jewish, Christian, European, Egyptian, Persian - preparatory to conquest.

You yourself acknowledge the status in your last line. If that is the condition and if it only helps the enemy why write sucha book at all! Keep it to yourself! It woudl have been good to have a 1-1 chat with him. But at this stage he will be wary. Even then I could have used my radar to sense his real thoughts if in close proximity. It would have been an intriguing insight into what I consider the signs of creeping dhimmitude in people not even aware of it themselves.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by ramana »

brihaspati wrote:Sanku ji,
you missed my second para :
......

I have even before spoken out against "revolution". Actually I have had brush with the "evolutionary" line in the "East" (Bengal+Bihar+Jharkhand) as well as for a brief period of time in Delhi. You are right that there really has not been any "revolution" in India, including those claimed by the Leftists. But my grassroots experiences showed that at every stage it was the pre-existing family-clan connections that ultimately took priority over any political vision - especially where the crucial clarity to look into long term consequences were concerned.

It was the strength of such networked commitments that was used to place JLN in power.

I have had close experiences through my "clan" with early INC, Gandhi dominated INC, Swatantra Party, Congress Socialists, "anarchists", Bose, Left of all shades except the ML's, Syndicate. When I have looked back on a collective and impartial analysis of all that together with the recorded experiences and analyses of others - I see that the greatest weakness in our path has been that overwhelming emotional priority given to blood-kin and such dependence relations. in the end, what happens, is a clever manipulator who gets to satisfy his/her hunger for power and personal dominance using the idealism and sacrifice of hundreds of thousands.

One of five (I dubbed them the Pandavas) most faithful assistants I had during my org days, was a Punjabi Sikh young man who set to music a couplet I had written in Hindi meaning

"the weighing-stone of idealism has been worn down with much use/
sharp traders of long standing use that stone to loot the treasures of our lives/"

to which he added :

"God punishes the idealist for allowing the charlatan to seduce/
not once, not twice, but allowing the same charlatan to seduce again and again"
1. It was Maharaja Bharat who realized early that kinship was not the right qualification for leadership. He chose the best youth and made him Yuvaraj to succeed the throne after him. However dynasty rule ended up as the preferred mode of succession.
2. Can you post the original in Hindi so folks abc appreciate in its original language?


Meanwhile Op-Ed in Pioneer, 16 June 2010
EDITS | Wednesday, June 16, 2010 | Email | Print | | Back


We must seize the moment

Gautam Mukherjee

-- I set my sail as the tide comes in And I just cast my fate to the wind.-- Vince Guaraldi

When a nation approaches a fresh apogee in its destiny, it must review its own narrative, no matter how bitter. For growth, not just economic, but an overall enhancement of stature, which could lead to greatness, demands the shedding of inappropriate baggage.

But, almost axiomatically, there is the anxiety at the prospect of casting off from familiar shores. It calls for changes: For an end to navel-gazing and decisive action against enemies of the state, but also to let bygones be bygones. It calls for not only the ruthless elimination of security threats and the relentless pursuit of national interest, but also for the forging of new ties and alliances, sometimes with unequal and powerful partners that have not always done the right thing by us.

India is rapidly and inexorably approaching that hallowed threshold, that long desired entrance to the portal of resurgent leading nations, with the appropriateness of our candidature held beyond dispute, and is called upon to make ready to seize its moment.

Part of the reason for arriving at this juncture is attributable to our innate virtue. Our Hindu/Buddh- ist/Sufi/Jain influenced pacifism and philosophical moderation, and the capacity to absorb different strains and viewpoints into our body politic. In a troubled world perplexed by the mayhem let loose by Islamism, our nuanced responses, our seemingly paradoxical embrace of opposing viewpoints, seems wise after all, and no longer wily or effete — no more the object of derision and contempt.

And other reasons, such as the upheaval in a settled world order, caused humiliatingly by self-inflicted implosion, not external aggression or sabotage, is climactic. An order undisturbed since before the fall of the Berlin Wall, perhaps unchanged from the first Bretton Woods Conference after World War II.

The hard reality is that Europe and America, large as their economies are, will, evidently, not grow at more than one or two per cent per annum for years, if not decades. And this too is dependent on mercantile and political cooperation of the sizeable fast-growing nations such as India and China.

A mirror held to the changing world reflects news of China looking at buying Newsweek put on the block by its owners, The Washington Post, struggling to survive as a broadsheet in the Internet age. But why does China actually want Time’s feisty competitor? Could it be to get its worldview out more clearly to the target audience, and without inherent Western bias and prejudice?

India, recent purchaser of iconic British automotive brands Land Rover, Range Rover and Jaguar through the Tata Group, is now moving towards making its engines in India. This move would have been deemed a sacrilege a few years ago; but now, it has been prompted not by a jingoistic Indian manager but by the European CEO of Tata Motors. So the erstwhile financially troubled brands will be transformed, becoming more profitable and affordable. The engine design team will still be from the British Tata-owned operation, but the luxury vehicle’s engines will henceforth be made in India.

Meanwhile, Press reports state Beijing and Mumbai are pleased at the windfall discounts available on their high-end Mercedes Benz, BMW and Audi car purchases, occasioned by the persistent weakness in the Euro. This is probably good in the long run also, because the buying demand these days is in these and suchlike places.

The prompting to resize our ambitions is coming in from various sides, some positive some negative in their impetus. The intensifying of terrorism and internal insurgency is a measure, if backhanded, of both our democracy and our success. Nobody is whisked away at midnight in India for railing at the state, however misguidedly. Treason is not a term used to gag dissent and make political opponents disappear. Nor is the Indian state put out at suggestions that it is the greatest terrorist of them all. This state, now seen as a contender, is subject to efforts from certain quarters to hinder its progress and sap its strength. Ergo, it is necessary for us to find the modern wherewithal to prevail, and thwart such designs.

But even left to itself, India’s economic growth is posing challenges to our somewhat bullock-cart and buffalo-gazing political leadership. Besides, no politician or political party is able to hoodwink the people anymore. In the Internet age, the control over information is innately slippery. It is not just a matter of secrecy and leakages, but the transparency, including the hackery, engendered by the possibilities of technology available. It is this technology that is proving harder and harder to outwit. Every side of the fence is affected, the heroes and villains, and all those of us betwixt and bemused.

And the ideological narrative too has changed drastically. We are no longer Socialist. Perhaps neither is China. But ideology to the Chinese has become an internal matter for them to interpret as they see fit. Because China realised its priorities in the now seemingly distant 1980s. And today, having paid its dues, is indeed in control of its metamorphosis.

So to do this thing we are now called upon to do, we too must ignore the scars of recent centuries, must let go the post-colonial angst, as well as more recent geo-political biases against us.

We need instead to focus and not be distracted by rear-viewing cacophony and narrow parochialism. It is not wrong to jettison that which is spent. Since independence, through 40 years of a Socialist India, we worked obliquely to undermine the authority and power of the West. So it should come as no surprise that they did nothing to help us either. :?: {Wasn't the West(UK first and then US) also trying to undermine the idea of India? When he wants bygones to be bygones shouldn't that be reciprocal?}

But now all is different. We have a shot at reforming global trade talks and international institutional financing in our favour. We could be in the UNSC soon, not just as a temporary but permanent member. We could be taken off all the presently inaccessible high-technology lists. Our nuclear programmes could go forward unfettered. We could address our regional concerns with Pakistan and China with much greater confidence.

However, first we have to drop the burden of history and cast our fate to this favourable and prevailing wind.
He doesnt state what burden of history he wants to jettison. His narrative is nice and suddenly ends abruptly. Its like a plea to kowtow more to the West!

To me the real Cold War was the 'benign neglect' of India to ensure its non-rise, the sucking of the trained manpower, the reduction of its global weight most of it self induced by misguided Westernised elites. We succeeded inspite of all that. The other Cold War was a really a cat fight between two halfs of the European world and got settled when one of them decided to walk away from the fight. The other kept at it and is now bankrupt.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Sanku »

brihaspati wrote:No, I didnt mean JS as having said that - but the stark reality of reality leading to the Partition.
Ok there are different things here

1) JS's view in the book is very similar to yours about JLN and MAJ, so as far as I see there is no conflict.

2) The real debate is how crystal clear and direct you want to be in your message, here is the debate, one approach is to say the same things, but temper down the presentation so that it gets read, that is the approach of the book. The points are all made, but in a way that they are attacking the subconscious, the external points are "neutral"

The other approach is activist approach -- say the right thing, focus on the core, say it often say it loudly. As opposed to letting the points sneak in under a so called neutral veneer.

There are forums and places and methods for both, and I believe in multi-pronged attack. JS book lets me make my point in a gathering of GoI as acceptable look at history, if I said the exactly same thing from another book I would be pilloried immediately as a Chaddiwala and the meeting adjourned and the chance to pass on my message lost.

Being a sneaky bas**** is not a weapon I am willing to cede to Maopests and their ilk. :twisted:
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by brihaspati »

Alright - Sanku ji,
lets say I am willing to see it as an attempted tactical line. I have doubts about its efficacy, because it is very similar in method or approach seen in others long before him elsewhere. It is one of the signs of intellectual compromise, a kind of acknowledging defeat and frustration at the futility of it all.

I just wish that the next gen moves clearly and consciously away from any iota of ideological compromise, and not see un-achieved target as a reason to lose faith in the eventual victory of inner conviction. If it has not been achieved yet, it simply means that - the target is to be achieved. Singleminded focus. Many lifetimes if needs be. Not giving up until it is achieved, and not doubting once the basic realization.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by darshhan »

Didn't know where else to post it.

http://sify.com/news/bjp-slams-entry-fe ... cejje.html

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/jizya ... sites.html

Mainstream media in our country has totally ignored this.Honestly my blood is boiling since I read the above reports.So much for secularism.The congress party has ensured dhimmi status for hindus and other infidels.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by brihaspati »

That ideology has always understood the importance of pilgrimage as a source of wealth. The main reason to deny any possible transfer of "income" from fleecing the pilgrims through the "prevention of land transfer" movement.

Darshan ji, there i snot much point in protesting this, since corresponding "civil taxes" will not be imposed on pilgrims to Ajmer Sharif for example. There is not point in gnashing teeth at UPA etc, since Hindu elite in each and every state of India will do everything they can to defend the right of Islamics to extract wealth from non-Muslims of India, while never doing an equal equal in real terms. Actually, what percentage of income from pilgrimage, property exploitation by Islamics and Ej's find their way into "state" coffers? What happens to the income from the "temple trusts"? Who manages this unequal flow of wealth which amounts to a virtual subsidy to spread and maintain those other faiths at the cost of "Hindus" who also form the bulk of the tax-paying population? Hindu "elite" again.

How to deal with such people? Only one way - mark them out. Boycott them socially. Dont vote for them. Dont buy their papers, journals. Don't watch their channels and media outlets. Don't attend social functions where they attend. For all practical purposes they should be non-existent from the societal viewpoint. Unless such behaviour is penalized where it matters - that is "power" and "esteem" - this will never change.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Sanku wrote: Even in MB existing clan networks were utilized, and no atomization was seen. I think we need to reuse the MB template, for the next 4000 years of Indic supremacy.
Sanku I didn't under stand this, would it be possible to expand on this? What does MB stands for?
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by brihaspati »

MB == Mahabharata. He is using the circa 3000 BCE date for the Kurukshetra war.

By the way, Sanku ji, to a certain extent the Pandavas had a rather weak kin-link as shown by their isolation among the Kuru-clan and court, their immediate network. Their primary strength comes from their maternal link to Krishna, and freshly minted marital linkages through essentially the "wives" of Arjuna and Bheema. Their own birth linkages were quite hostile - as shown in the number of years they had to hide and stay in exile before the war.

I see this as Krishna's deliberate use of their very weakness in "clan-linkage" to send Arjuna out to forge new ties with people who were not kin of the Kurus, and basically use this to mobilize a political alliance to destroy the older clan-networks that supported the kurus in power. Krishna himself manipulates things and uses the brothers to destroy entities related to himself in kinship - like Jarasandha of Magadha. His own kin were opposed to his policies and Balarama was pro-Kuru.

MB can be interpreted as a political treatise that is desperately trying to establish the principle of legitimacy of rashtra above mere clan-blood relation-inheritance-dynasty. It starts off the story from Bharata's overriding the principle of by-birth inheritance of rashtryia power. Krishna's entire ideology behind the "war" is also establishing the rashtra on "dharma" or principles. it is entirely a question of transition of the concept of legitimacy from birth-inheritance to principles.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by brihaspati »

The International Pan Islamic Communist Party of Proletarian Islam Statement on the Battle of Dantewada District .
The Central Committee and Carde of the International Pan Islamic Communist Party of Proletarian Islam congratulates and salutes the cadres fighters and Leadership of the Communist Party of India Maoist and the military wing of the Party the Peoples Liberation Guerrila Army on its recent miliary victory in the Battle of Dantewada District over the forces of the Indian Comprador State the Comprador Indian Government foolish thought that it could crush the Peoples resistance in Chhattisgarh with its Operation Green Hunt. but they were mistaken and as a result they have lost over 76 solders from their police forces in the Battle of Dantewada District the battle of Dantewada District was a great victory for the Indian and South Asian Working class it is also a great victory for the Pan Islamic and Pan Original Working Class of the world as a whole, Comrade General Secretary Ganapathy is a Great friend to the Pan Islamic Ummah. Comrade Ganapathy has called for a united front of the Indian New Democratic Revolution with the worldwide Pan Islamic Revolution for the reunification of the Pan Islamic Homeland. the Central Committee as well as all Carde of the International Communist Party of Proletarian Islam consider Comrade Ganapathy to be a great hero of Proletarian Islam The International Pan Islamic Communist Party of Proletarian Islam looks forward to the complete and final victory of the New Democratic Revolution in India under the leadership of the Communist Party of India Maoist.
Two possibilities :
First, This is an interesting attempt by essentially Marxist theoreticians to bridge that fundamental problem of Marxism : that of getting and constructing a constituency of following that will lead these frustrated elite faction kept out of political power - to power. Marx created the abstract category of "proletariat", and all subsequent implementers have had to do a merry dance to fit in real human beings and social groups into that abstract criterion. The expressions used and terminology used shows acquaintance with "theoretical Marxism". But it is the "pan-Islamic" twist thats most interesting - something I have predicted is going to be seriously tried out by both Islamists and Communists (but more so by the communist). The Islamists are going to be reluctant partners if at all, and if they do collaborate they will do so as a temporary tactical alliance. The communists will be wiped out ruthlessly if Islamists can finally get hold of state power.

Second, another of those infamous "honey-traps" started by well-heeled operatives from secret services of a wide range of non-Muslim countries (and maybe even some confused ones like Turkey).

But note that the idea is afloat, and a certain section of "communists" will be drawn towards this. They also appear to attach "India" as a tag a lot, could be one of our own homegrown ComIslamists!
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Abhi_G »

The love between Marxism and Islamism is not new in the context of India. MN Roy had written "Historical Role of Islam". So would not be surprised if that essay finds ears and develops renewed interest in both of these ideologies.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -I

Post by Rudradev »

darshhan wrote:Didn't know where else to post it.

http://sify.com/news/bjp-slams-entry-fe ... cejje.html

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/jizya ... sites.html

Mainstream media in our country has totally ignored this.Honestly my blood is boiling since I read the above reports.So much for secularism.The congress party has ensured dhimmi status for hindus and other infidels.
This is Neend-ki-Jaziya. Hindu citizens of India have to pay a special tax to the J&K government to worship at their own holy shrines in their own country... so that Manmohan Singh can sleep in peace.

After all, he could not countenance the injustice of Muslims not having "first rights" on India's resources... including the resources in the pockets of Hindu citizens of India.
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