Indo-UK: News & Discussion

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 10 Jun 2010 21:05

India's campaign to retrieve captured heritage treasures
http://www.sikhnugget.com/2010/06/india ... gn-to.html

No compromise on Koh-i-Noor: Says UK
http://www.sikhnugget.com/2010/06/no-co ... ys-uk.html

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jun 2010 22:01

Premen Addy comments on new UK govt plan to revive ties with India
UK Revives a Relationship

UK revives a relationship

Premen Addy

Amidst a haystack of words on the parlous state of the British economy, the Queen’s speech at the State Opening of Parliament contained the following needle of intent: “My Government looks forward to an enhanced partnership with India.” The Times took up the theme with a substantial report entitled “Hague heads east for new ‘special relationship’.” It told of the Foreign Secretary’s planned sojourn to India sometime this summer as “Britain’s new Government tries to turn cultural and trade ties with the emerging superpower into a ‘genuinely special relationship’.”

The Foreign Secretary’s aides later confirmed that the country was considered vital to forging a ‘distinctive British foreign policy’. Before the election Mr William Hague said that Britain needed to reach out beyond traditional allies in the US and Europe and that has remained a priority for the coalition Government. An aide to Mr Hague suggested that “relations with India had lagged behind China by about five to 10 years.” The aide said: “The truth is that this is a key relationship that has been neglected and we aim to address that.” A Foreign and Commonwealth Office briefing note read: “We need to better recognise India’s rising global influence and work closely with the Indian Government to address the many challenges facing South Asia.”

No man is an island, neither is any country, as another of the Queen’s lines made clear: “My Government will work with the Afghan Government, Pakistan and international partners for lasting security and stability in Afghanistan.”Pakistan is now part of the AfPak equation. The wind of change is blowing upon us, but whether it turns Gale Force 9 or remains a zephyr will be revealed in the fullness of time.

That said, there is nothing like a crisis to concentrate minds. The financial meltdown coming on top of Mr Tony Blair’s bungled crime in Iraq and the debilitating drain of blood and treasure in the deepening futility of Afghanistan clearly carries a message on course correction from the gods. Britain’s ‘special relationship’ with the US has lost its mythic attraction as a cure-all for the nation’s ills and insecurities following the loss of empire and the painful struggle to find a role in a transitional world. The Cold War was a distraction that concealed the hard realities. It enabled the UK to punch above its weight in the illusory pursuance of ‘Great Power’ status, which amounted to little more than inebriating dining rights at Uncle Sam’s high table.

The most myopic habits of the Raj were cast in stone. Islamic Pakistan, continuing the traditions and practices of the pre-partition Muslim League, became the hand-maiden of the Anglo-American post-War imperial enterprise. Phobias on international Communism and Russia resulted in a misbegotten dalliance between the West and conservative Islam, with its twin centres of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. The containment of India, despite the commerce in ministerial banalities on shared values, was only less central to this narrative than the containment of the Soviet Union. Jammu & Kashmir, the liberation of Bangladesh from Pakistani thraldom, coupled with the eventual convergence of Anglo-American interests in Pakistan with those of China —the compact unfolding in the aftermath of the Nixon-Kissinger visits to Beijing in 1971-73 — became a seamless robe of Whitehall policy.

The stitching, it would appear, is now coming off. With Russian pipelines under the Baltic Sea, soon to supply German industry and the German consumer directly with Siberian oil and gas, nearing completion, the most powerful economy in the EU may start singing from a different hymn-sheet to those of its principal partners in Europe and Nato. Pakistan is in a shambles, a menace to itself, its neighbours, and to Britain and America. The hyped Chinese economy is a giant bubble in the making, according to certain reputable financial experts, while Beijing’s close relations with a rogue North Korea and a terrorism-exporting Pakistan says little for its trustworthiness as a true international partner.

Furthermore, New Delhi has faced down Beijing’s threatening postures on the Dalai Lama’s visit to Arunachal Pradesh, to which China lays claim. The re-calibration of British foreign policy is thus timely, opening the door to a win-win situation for both Britain and India. It would end the well honed dialogue of the deaf, the practice of talking past each other, as was once the wont of British and Indian diplomats and politicians, according to Mr Douglas Hurd, Mrs Margaret Thatcher’s suave and capable Foreign Secretary.

The new creative British conversation with India is likely to be based on all that is praiseworthy and lasting in Britain’s record in the sub-continent. Indian civilisation reached its nadir during late Mughal rule in the 18th century, but the first steps to its restoration and mutation as a modern nation state occurred under the aegis of Warren Hastings, when the Bhagavad Gita received its English rendition by Charles Wilkins, thanks to the Governor-General’s efforts to promote the work. A galaxy of British Indologists such as Jones, Carey, Colebrooke, Wilson, Prinsep, Hodgson, Tod, Cunningham and Max Muller et al over the next century returned to India her lost classical past, so seeding liberal Indian nationalism.

Of these early discoveries of Sanskrit, Hastings wrote: “These will survive when the British dominion in India shall have long ceased to exist, and when the sources which it once yielded of wealth and power are lost to remembrance.” Lest it be forgotten, the founder of the Indian National Congress in December 1885 was the revered Allan Octavian Hume and India’s political institutions and their cultural underpinnings were seeded in the British experience. The last British Viceroy, Lord Louis Mountbatten, was invited by Indian leaders to become free India’s first Governor-General, a gesture never quite appreciated by Britain’s great and good down the years.

At a time when the Indo-British reset button is being pressed, let us recall that Winston Churchill, who had once dismissed his Indian adversaries as “men of straw,” came to respect and laud the one among them he knew best in his last years as Britain’s Prime Minister. Writing to Jawaharlal Nehru on February 21, 1955, Churchill said: “I hope you will think of the phrase ‘The Light of Asia’. It seems to me that you may be able to do what no other human being could in giving India the lead, at least in the realm of thought, throughout Asia, with the freedom and dignity of the individual as the ideal rather than Communist Party drill book.”

Lets see if the Brits want to reset or not.

munna · Post by **munna** » 12 Jun 2010 01:38

ramana wrote:Lets see if the Brits want to reset or not.

The conservatives want "reset" and that too desperately. Historically in Britain the Conservatives or Tories were the Bulwarks of so Imperium Regium. These guys know which way the wind is blowing and will shamelessly execurte an about turn to ally with the rising sun of the times. The real danger lies in the do gooder labor who want to use the external influence of Britain to satiate doemstic constituencies while the Tories want to use the external alliances to secure a better future for their country and citizens. Labor is akin to a defunct royal family selling its old silver for some pennies today while Tories want to invest the same in a rising business. Let us see who wins, but as of now Tories have a better hang of the things.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jun 2010 07:13

while lot of noise is made about kohinoor, has anyone asked iran, CAR republics to return all the treasures looted from north india like peacock throne?

or is asking the ROP adherents to return looted stuff anti-secular?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 12 Jun 2010 09:15

Singha wrote:while lot of noise is made about kohinoor, has anyone asked iran, CAR republics to return all the treasures looted from north india like peacock throne?
or is asking the ROP adherents to return looted stuff anti-secular?

Its most desirable if we take that back in the same way it was taken away. We owe then and they owe us. We can wait till wind start blowing in favourable direction.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 12 Jun 2010 20:20

The list of items looted by CA Turks is, in my opinion, not very large. They stole normal wealth, not artifacts, per se. They weren't keen on preserving their own artifacts, and sure as hell were not eager to lug back our heritage either. What they took was men as slaves, women as slaves, gold, silver and valuables. Humans can't be returned. Money and gold is fungible. Many turks & iranians settled in India too.

They did take a few things like the Peacock throne and the doors of Somnath. The doors of Somnath were snatched back from them by the Sikhs and brought back to India. The process in which they were taken back brought back was the same as they were taken, by military force and not pleadings (as Prem as so cleverly put it). Also, the Koh-i-Noor, which originally Indian, was also taken by them, and brought back by a process not dissimilar to the way it was taken. So Prem is right, that is the way our heritage should come back from them.

Also immeasurable hertiage was lost to TSP since it was immovable (forts, ancient temples, Taxila and Mohenjodaro etc.) that should come back to us (along with the land on which it stands) in the same manner we lost it.

With regard to United Theifdom, their theft of enormous amount of money, resources, gold etc. can hardly be asked to be repaid. The 10's millions they killed and starved to death cannot be brought back. However, their theft of our cultural heritage is most unique theft ever to have happened. Items were taken simply because of their antique value (not necessarily monetary value). Just so that England can be the center of the world where Budha statues and Greek Marbles and Ethopian masks can be displayed in their museums.

By the way, I feel that if thorough research is done, it might be easy to see that the British have stolen the largest cache of cultural artifacts. The biggest cultural thieves of history.

Since the British claim that India was colonized to civilize it and to hold it as a trusteeship because of its caste system and all that, the looted treasures serve no purpose in advancing that British goal, so it should be easy to return them.

PS: Turks were vandals, British were simply thieves.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 12 Jun 2010 20:24

Prem wrote: Its most desirable if we take that back in the same way it was taken away. We owe then and they owe us. We can wait till wind start blowing in favourable direction.

+1 to that

. Infact these requests of "Give me this..and that.. UK govt." at times is nothing but a big whine

. If we as a nation can remember these, and then get them back through some other means that whining, that I feel would be a better achievement.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 12 Jun 2010 20:30

Sachin wrote:
Prem wrote: Its most desirable if we take that back in the same way it was taken away. We owe then and they owe us. We can wait till wind start blowing in favourable direction.
+1 to that . Infact these requests of "Give me this..and that.. UK govt." at times is nothing but a big whine . If we as a nation can remember these, and then get them back through some other means that whining, that I feel would be a better achievement.

I hate whines too. But w.r.t. UK, direct military options are non-existent in the forseeable future. What India can do, however, is not merely plead, but spend political capital to pressurize UK and raise the cost of holding on to our heritage. Change their cost-benefit analysis in favor of returning.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 12 Jun 2010 21:07

after Delhi was recaptured by company troops in 1857, there was an organised and methodical looting of the city to pay off the victorious troops. it is well documented. the process was usually run by the junior officers with a lot of administrative attention to detail. it was part of the pay-off to the troops as per the practice of those times. even in the turko-mongol days, there were rules as to who got how much loot and slaves and what share went to the khan and his khan and his khan, etc.

not all that different in my opinion

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 12 Jun 2010 22:22

Surinder ji,
UK want to pess the reset button and Indian want to set up the Bitish India Company run by Desi Baniyas for the time being till UQites revolt of low wages . So Kohinoor come back when the Shopkeepers economic prosperity depend on us. To bring the Peackock throne back by land onlee , it calls for the cleaning process of our Deer Brothers stinkcy mess on the West side. Think of Porus answering Alex, Peackock throne includes all that is from Wagha to Tehran.Funny thing is Persians know this. This is why Nooke Iran not in our Lumbe interest. Another 50 years, they all lay prostrate at Mother India's feet.

Haresh · Post by **Haresh** » 12 Jun 2010 23:50

Damm it !!!
Don't you dammed natives realise the Raj never died it's alive and well!!! (now fetch my horse)

http://www.skinnershorse.co.uk/index.html

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 14 Jun 2010 08:27

UK man's SA entry denied

"This individual has a history of inciting racially motivated violence at sporting events," Brigadier Sally de Beer said in a statement.

http://news.iafrica.com/sa/2476040.htm

(A saga of never ending bigotry emanating from UQ. )

Haresh · Post by **Haresh** » 14 Jun 2010 11:47

Karan,

The link is not working.
However you have not answered my previous questions.
Have you ever been to the UK?
What first hand experiences have you personally had in the UK??

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 14 Jun 2010 21:19

"The containment of India,"

Assuming this was a policy from the 50's-90's, what would have been the rationale? And how would they justify it to the general populace? It certainly can't be fear of communism, or religious radicalism as in post-Shah Iran.

Were the US-UK in effect containing democracy and freedom !? Because a free, democratic, pluralistic India encouraging other newly independent countries to adopt similar economic and political policies, would certainly not be in favour in Washington and London.

Talk about turning the cold war rationale on its head! You start with the idea of containing or opposing totalitarianism; you end up teaming up with one totalitarian state to contain another totalitarian state, and incidentally( perhaps more than incidentally) assisting that totalitarian state and its principal non-communist ally,Pakistan, to contain democracy, secularism and pluralism!

Good show.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 14 Jun 2010 21:26

"To bring the Peackock throne back by land onlee ,"

To your knowledge, has India under whatever government, ever asked Iran to return the peacock throne, looted by Nadir Shah in 1739? If so, it would be an uncharacteristically bold request by any Indian government, even one headed by the BJP-NDA. If/when they ever return to power, they should ask Iran to return it.

ajit_tr · Post by **ajit_tr** » 14 Jun 2010 22:30

already posted

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 14 Jun 2010 22:37

I remember reading a long time back that India did ask Iran to return the Peacock throne, but as usual pleadings are often rebuffed, and Iran did it too.

If using the Gandhian techniques of satyagraha could cause the might British to give whole of India, then it should be quite easy in comparison for UK to give up a few antiques. A fast to deaths and that should do it. That is after all what the Indian National Congress taught us in history books, and now they have a chance to give a demo of the power of non-violent satyagraha.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Jun 2010 10:29

We love to throw bricks at our erstwhile colonial masters for their misdemeanours (myself included),but there are times when we must salute the British.

Look at the way in which the inquiry into the horrendous "Bloody Sunday" civil rights demo.shootings in Derry N.Ireland have been conducted.Several hundreds of millions of pounds spent ,two decades on and the verdict cleared all those killed by British forces.In an extraordinary gesture,David Cameron,British PM apologises to the Irish nation from parliament live.

"What happened was both unjustified and unjustifiable. It was wrong," he said. "What happened should never have happened".

"The Government is ultimately responsible for the conduct of the armed forces. And for that, on behalf of the Government, indeed on behalf of our country, I am deeply sorry."

In Derry, families of those who died gathered outside the Guildhall to hear Lord Saville's conclusions. Tony Doherty, whose father Paddy died on the march, said Lord Saville had vindicated the victims.

"It can now be proclaimed to the world that the dead and the wounded of Bloody Sunday, civil rights marchers, one and all, were innocent, one and all, gunned down on their own streets by soldiers who had been given to believe that they could kill with perfect impunity," he said.

"When the state kills its citizens, it is in the interests of all that those responsible be held to account. The British people need to know; the Irish people need to know; the world now knows."

Can we ever see an Indian PM do likewise for state killings all over the country,for "encounters","terrorists in J&K",and last but not least ,apologise for the 26 years of misery and failings over Bhopal! Instead we have the Congress which let Anderson escape shamelessly ask the BJP "why they did not bring him back"! While Obama and the US Senate breathe fire and thunder against oil companies vowing to make them and BP pay costs over $50+ billions to the last cent,our parliament and GOI of the moment want to allow US nuclear suppliers to effectively,as was done at Bhopal,sell India third rate nuclear tech,which in the event of a catastrophe will allow them to evade their responsibilities and pay peanuts for what could reverberate for centuries ! The word "traitor" is too mild a term for those who wish to sell the country and its people,allowing for their murder in the future.Will the combined Opposition rise to the challenge and never allow this insidious bill passed in current form?

There was a cartoon in a paper just now,perfect for the moment,showing Dr.MMS ordering the babus to find out "in 10 days time,what has happened over he last 26 years"!

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 16 Jun 2010 17:34

Into the jaws of hate: Soldiers' parade marred by Muslim extremists and far-Right

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 16 Jun 2010 20:01

UK apologised for Bloody Sunday. What about Jallianwala Bagh?

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 16 Jun 2010 20:12

Philip wrote:Can we ever see an Indian PM do likewise for state killings all over the country,for "encounters","terrorists in J&K",and last but not least ,apologise for the 26 years of misery and failings over Bhopal! Instead we have the Congress which let Anderson escape shamelessly ask the BJP "why they did not bring him back"!

You can add to that list the November 1984 massacre of Sikhs in Delhi and other places with active connivance and planning by the state's machinery (especially police and politicians).

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 18 Jun 2010 03:39

In the Islamic Emirate of England, Held-Wales, Occupied-Scotland and English-Administered-Ireland...
Plastic bags to be put over Birmingham 'terror cameras'

A surveillance operation in parts of Birmingham with large Muslim populations has been halted after it was revealed the move was linked to counter terrorism.

Bags have now been placed over more than 200 cameras in the Washwood Heath and Sparkbrook districts.

"Certain communities have been ring-fenced and saturated with cameras, making it impossible for you to get in or out without being tracked.

lsunil · Post by **lsunil** » 18 Jun 2010 23:42

Britain bans Islamic preacher Zakir Naik

The end. Or maybe not. Im worried about NDTV or bakha dutt and co. They have a reputation and a commitment to cry foul on behalf of the minority community. It's more of a hijack than a voice from the other side.

Note to BJP: When in power, aim all guns at the media barons. Make their life a living hell. Burn the tree to the ground. Send them to the seventh level of dante's hell.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 19 Jun 2010 00:05

Certain communities have been ring-fenced and saturated with cameras, making it impossible for you to get in or out without being tracked.

Soweto, anyone?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 19 Jun 2010 07:24

lsunil wrote:Britain bans Islamic preacher Zakir Naik

Unfortunate. UKstan needs more people like Zakir Naik.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 19 Jun 2010 08:23

Yes UK should have let Zakir Naik in and Banned his exit back into India. I wonder whether the crowd cheering Narendra Modi visa denial will say to this.

Haresh · Post by **Haresh** » 20 Jun 2010 15:52

I am wondering if the forum can help me with a curiosity I have had for a while.
What is the situation of Anglo-Indians in India??

I watched this film a while ago and it made me curious
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhowani_Junction

Yes I know it is all very colonial in it's outlook & story line, but how has the Anglo Indian community in India fared since independence?
The few I have met in London are very curious of their roots, but some of them said that they felt rejected by India and infact by England.
What sort of jobs do they tend to do, how have they fared econmically,educationally etc.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jun 2010 16:41

afaik most of the younger gen left in 60s for canada, australia and england. their offsprings would no more have any roots in india.

the older gen who were left - good number were in armed forces, teaching, railway - professions which had attracted people from england to come and work in india earlier. their origins of exactly who and where they intermarriedinto the indian native pool is not too well documented.....it cannot have been one indian community but all over the place as circumstances dictated. so a tamil-anglo indian would really have nothing in common with a assamese-anglo indian though classified under one head.

now we hardly see them even in blr which is said to have housed lot of anglo-indians. I guess the old folks simply passed away and there was nobody left. or the few remnants are more and more intermarrying into 'native' indians and losing any shred of different looks or culture.

there were failed experiments like mckluskieganj which you read about on the web. "whitefield" of blr fame was also originally a anglo indian township and given to farming. mckluskieganj was an attempt to keep together a large number of people and retain some cultural homegenity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCluskieganj

read this:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 83,00.html

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Jun 2010 22:12

Haresh wrote:I am wondering if the forum can help me with a curiosity I have had for a while.
What is the situation of Anglo-Indians in India??

What sort of jobs do they tend to do, how have they fared econmically,educationally etc.

I know many of these guys. Good hearted, extremely hard working, very hospitable and loyal.

Educationally they did not do much, most just barely finished school and emigrated. Tended to take up jobs like mechanics and petty tradesmen. They are generally happy and contented with life.

They regularly visit home in Bangalore at least, where some of their old folks still stay on.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Jun 2010 22:27

Singha wrote:their origins of exactly who and where they intermarriedinto the indian native pool is not too well documented.....it cannot have been one indian community but all over the place as circumstances dictated. so a tamil-anglo indian would really have nothing in common with a assamese-anglo indian though classified under one head.

Singha ji,

The men were all usually fair and handsome. The girls were also generally very pretty but tended to age extremely fast. Maybe some regressive gene combinations? The men however aged gracefully. Tended to dress very formally even at home.

You could usually tell any anglo Indian easily. Their origins gave rise to linguistic peculiarities. They spoke english extremely well but the lower classes incorporated the regional language into their english to some extent so in effect their lingo in different regions were somewhat like dialects of english.

Their command over english and their formal mannerisms were a real treat to hear and watch.

I really miss these guys. Have a lot of anglo school friends who are now residents in many corners of the globe.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Jun 2010 22:43

chetak, not necessarily true about the education part. I know of a number of well educated anglo-Indians in govt service, academia and services. then there are the very well known o'briens of kolkata, famous for initiating and dominating the quiz scene in India for a long time. derek is now the spokesperson of TMC.

you are correct about the aging thing though, quite surprising that. I always though it was just the people I knew.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Jun 2010 22:52

Rahul M wrote:chetak, not necessarily true about the education part. I know of a number of well educated anglo-Indians in govt service, academia and services. then there are the very well known o'briens of kolkata, famous for initiating and dominating the quiz scene in India for a long time. derek is now the spokesperson of TMC.

you are correct about the aging thing though, quite surprising that. I always though it was just the people I knew.

Very true saar.

But more the exception than the rule, considering the appreciable numbers of this good tribe at one time.

Haresh · Post by **Haresh** » 20 Jun 2010 23:00

Many Thanks for the info so far, hope more follows.
I have found quite a few Anglo-Indian groups on Facebook.

Do any of you think that the Indians in the UK, will be regarded as Anglo Indian in the years to come?? even though we are of "Pure" Indian origin??

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 20 Jun 2010 23:18

I know a few A-I teachers and military folks...most of the military folks quit and joined some or other govt services.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Jun 2010 00:06

Gus wrote:I know a few A-I teachers and military folks...most of the military folks quit and joined some or other govt services.

Most ex military folks seem to have emigrated to australia.

I remember my AI teachers very fondly. A more dedicated and fair bunch you would never find.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Jun 2010 00:09

Haresh wrote:Many Thanks for the info so far, hope more follows.
I have found quite a few Anglo-Indian groups on Facebook.

Do any of you think that the Indians in the UK, will be regarded as Anglo Indian in the years to come?? even though we are of "Pure" Indian origin??

I doubt very much saar. AI means mixed blood.
It has colonial connotations.(meant in a good way)

Haresh · Post by **Haresh** » 21 Jun 2010 01:05

Many years ago, the Indians from India I used to work for used to call us "Tolly boys" as an insult what do they mean by this?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 21 Jun 2010 02:29

does "anglo-indian" still have meaning as a label? atleast, does it have the meaning it used to?
there are a lot of mixed children born in the UK with one parent from Indian origin and the other from anywhere else on the globe
within India itself, the people of mixed parentage will either blend in gentically or die out

as a comparison, the portuguese married a lot of black people in the 16th century, today they are all more or less white. every now and again a child will be born of white parents in portugal who looks partially black, i have met one lady who I thought was black until i saw her family pictures! that old recessive gene is always out there somewhere!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jun 2010 14:29

we had a great teacher named vaquelin. is that a english or portugese surname?

hard drinking can also lead to premature aging maybe, all my AI teachers didnt spare the bottle for sure....there was always a bottle close at hand
whenever I visited their houses for tuitions and discussions.

since single english women did not come to india to work (exept maybe as nurse or nun), the vast majority of AI should have started as a english
man and indian woman. but I figure these original records were never kept by state and community unlike europe and usa where birth records are
available going back 300 yrs and can be mined for data online nowadays. would make a fascinating subject of study.

Haresh · Post by **Haresh** » 21 Jun 2010 15:06

I have found a few Anglo Indian groups on Facebook which I have joined, there is even an east India company group!!