Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

[Pulikeshi]

I am aware of the growth of the Trimurthi and the
gradual fade out of the Vedic deities.

Btw, what is your opinion of the reason behind this shift?

Long story, but here is the 'cliff notes' -

1. Historians such as Bashyam and R.C. Majumdar have it half right. They think the
   trimurthi was of little practical value... but was an 'synthetic Hinduism' one more
   term as asinine as Hindu rate of growth
   It will take a long explanation to argue why these gentleman should stick to what
   they know best and Trimurthi is not one they know much about
   1. Vedic knowledge had to be disseminated to commons
   2. Myths of the Vedic Gods had become dated... fundamental forces did not
      impact daily life... Fire, Water, Rain, Lightning mostly controllable for
      sophisticated city dweller types....
   3. Society had changed from farming with small city states to large kingdoms
   4. Creation, Maintenance and Destruction - is basic operations
2. The Trimurthi preserved the order (Rta) of the Universe.
   1. Creator did not have much of a role once creation was done. So no worship
   2. Maintainer was the most interesting one to please during existence
   3. Destroyer - got to worry about him, but hey he ain't materialistic
3. As kingdoms grew larger, the maintenance and pursuit of law and order
   required both the Maintainer and the Destroyer
   1. Some competition did occur between the followers of the Maintainer and Destroyer
   2. Most part there were also forces that tried to maintain their unity. Myth
      were created that were co-dependent, their wives had relationships, heck
      even the guys had a relationship and finally we have hari-hara
   3. In all the new stories the older Vedic Gods beg the new order to help and
      preserve their H&D.

PS: There is more subtlety and nuance then I ramble above, but one important
thing I have left out is the Karma foundation of Ramayana/MB that takes the
Vedic Gods over. However, that will have to wait for another day...
That perhaps is the most important evolution of the Hindu mind....

[Carl_T]

Long story, but here is the 'cliff notes' -

1. Historians such as Bashyam and R.C. Majumdar have it half right. They think the
   trimurthi was of little practical value... but was an 'synthetic Hinduism' one more
   term as asinine as Hindu rate of growth
   It will take a long explanation to argue why these gentleman should stick to what
   they know best and Trimurthi is not one they know much about
   1. Vedic knowledge had to be disseminated to commons
   2. Myths of the Vedic Gods had become dated... fundamental forces did not
      impact daily life... Fire, Water, Rain, Lightning mostly controllable for
      sophisticated city dweller types....
   3. Society had changed from farming with small city states to large kingdoms
   4. Creation, Maintenance and Destruction - is basic operations

[*] The Trimurthi preserved the order (Rta) of the Universe.

It seems you trace the transition to the change from agrarian to urban lifestyle and growth of larger kingdoms. My issue is, the rise of the trimurti did not happen till much later, don't know the exact date, but large kingdoms are likely not new to the subcontinent, and I think they would easily go back to Vedic times. This would also put the development of cities at a later date which IMO is questionable.

[brihaspati]

Its simply a matter of scale. Two processes at work :
(1) the more independent you get from your environment about your basic survival - less important grows individual numerous factors in the previous environment.
(2) Human tendency to model : i.e., simplify complex phenomena by a simple model which can explain all the previous complexity from a smaller set of assumptions.

However the nature and sophistication of that model is subject to what aspect of complexity has been grasped. For example someone living in the deserts and facing three different organized religions, each with dozens of sects, and each controlling mouth-watering resources - would lead to the simplifying model of a single deity who belongs to the inventor of that deity and to whom all else submits. In this case the deity would reflect what desires rage inside the inventor's mind and would be limited by the knowledge of the world/universe to the inventor.

Whereas an already urbanized society facing complexity of urbanization, accumulated knowledge and experiences, while missing the simplicity of pre-urban lives would look for a more subtle entity who has less of the human greed/power characteristics but explains the much greater nuances of complexity in the latter case. This entity would be less human [because basic needs are already satisfied] and more abstract and wider in its reach because of greater knowledge of nature/world and the universe.

[naren]

^^^ bliss to enjaay this. Very relevant to this discussion.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Compl ... ion_of_God

[Pulikeshi]

It seems you trace the transition to the change from agrarian to urban lifestyle and growth of larger kingdoms. My issue is, the rise of the trimurti did not happen till much later, don't know the exact date, but large kingdoms are likely not new to the subcontinent, and I think they would easily go back to Vedic times. This would also put the development of cities at a later date which IMO is questionable.

1. Name a few large kingdoms during the Vedic age.

2. Visnu and Siva/Rudra coexisted with Vedic Gods for a long time as equal or almost there...

3. One way to nail the window down for transition is post Saraswathi Civilization and before advent of Buddha.... but that is just my conjecture.

4. It seems to me that the Vedic Civilization was Saraswathi based and the Trimurthi was Ganga based. That may provide another data point.

So, what are your thoughts on how and when this transition took place?

[ramana]

An essay on origns of Mayabazar story!

How Balarama became Abhimanyu's FIL

[brihaspati]

It reminds me of the "Patua's" of Bengal and South Bihar. "Pata" (pronounced "pawt") has a solid Sanskrit-Prakrit connection - meaning "screen/canvas". [Patua is the one who paints the "pata" and sings or narrates as he/she turns the frames]. Currently it denotes a folk-art form where stories are told through illustrated sequence of paintings. The "patua" sings or narrates in rhythm the story accompanying the frame. The paintings are either rolled or stitched together and displayed on bamboo frames.

[satyam]

Timeline of Mahabharat

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... f=3&t=5576

[svenkat]

Cross posted.

In another forum,devoted to Advaita,it was claimed by someone that Sri Ramakrishna Parahamsa was rooted in tantric school,though Tantra has commonality with Vedanta.No one picked up the 'gauntlet' ,so to speak.

DRoyji,
Would you care to post in the Indian religion thread your views on Tantra/Vedanta.Particularly your thoughts on Shakta Tantras.Does Pancharatra agamas fall under the category of Tantras?Also your thoughts on Shaiva Agamas.

[Pulikeshi]

Timeline of Mahabharat

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... f=3&t=5576

Thanks for posting this link:

Interesting information along timelines. I see this work states the timelines
belong in 6000-5000 BCE versus the other work that went for 4000-3000 BCE.
Not sure if there has been some cross validation done with sea rise, saraswathi drying up, etc. geological events... perhaps some more clarity can come there.

In the 6000-5000 BCE range what dates are being suggested for Krishna's life?

[brihaspati]

I had come up with the same problem as I posted earlier. My proposed solution is taking both periods and consider that MB is written out much later where narrative/memory of both periods interlay to give a new narrative.

Just briefly - the peak sea-level rise is around 5700 BCE, after which sea-level has fallen slightly to current levels but not to the 10,500 BCE level or even the next higher (but still < current) level at 8000 BCE. The 5700 BCE date is closer to the estimated age of the possible township now submerged offshore from Dwarka. However, Krishna is said to have reclaimed land from the sea, which could be easier to do after waters retreated slightly from the 5700 peak.

The 3000 BCE mark for actual Krishna can actually be connected to a sudden disruption in climate observed globally around the 3000-31000 BCE mark, and which affected early human settlements worldwide as observed in archaeological reocords. The impact seems to have been greatest around ME, with a hypothesis that exists about a possible meteor strike somewhere in NE.

I hypothesize that Krishna/or his ancestors reclaimed land on the then coastline before 3000 BCE as waters retreated slightly from 5700. The earlier township existed before 5700 but was submerged in the decadal level rapid rise episodes we can identify. Either the population form this town retreated further inland and settled up the Punjab-Ganges-Saraswati valleys. Saraswati would be swelling up from the driest 8000 BCE period to the peak rainflall period 6000 BCE. So settlements further inland would be feasible. [Possible connection to how the Yadav clans have kin ruling in Mathura - Kamsa for example]. The memory of the territry or towns swallowed up by the sea was however retained, and therefore Krishna found it natural to return to the area when water receded when he felt a strategic retreat was necessary for him from Mathura. The town perhaps became uninhabitable due to the global climate disturbances around 3100 BCE, and was abandoned [Balaramas's nagas going out to the sea] with groups leaving on ships for western or Gulf regions.

The MB was however being written much later in its final shape when memories of both periods are conflated together.

[Sanku]

As far as I know, Shri Vartak's work is older, and Narhari Achar's work with star chart (which completely recreate the skies from a particular position around Hastinapur/kurushetra and tie it with references in MB) is newer.

Also choosing a earlier than 3000 reference makes reconciling the gap in king lists even more difficult.

Thirdly, the drying of Swarswati, MB has references that the flow of Swarswati is lessened, that could not have happened pre 3000 BCE.

I do not think that MB itself conflated events, yes it did of course in the sense that it talks of stories starting much earlier than the MB war itself, but in its very core, the Pandava period, the dates around 3000 are when pretty much everything happened.

[brihaspati]

I just wanted to explain the "Pravaas" parva by conflation. That Krishna himself was likely around 3000, but his Dwarka was abandoned because of short term global climatic disturrbances, whereas the original dwarka or a city in that location submerged around 5700 BCE. I feel the core battle happened around 3000 - and the climatic conditions could actually indicate a contest for land [the main theme and object over which the final wrangle takes place - it is land] which also had sufficient irrigation etc.

The destruction of regional competitive elite and some degree of unification under a single authority, paved way for wide-spread trade networks giving rising to spread of urbanization along the trade routes - leading to SSC from around 2700-2800. The global drought lasting roughly from 2200-2000 began the decline tapering off between 1800-1400. I have a feeling that it is at this stage, the happenings of MB war were studied and explored again to try and seek solutions to reverse the decline.

Keeping the major incidents of 3000 as the core, the other older incidents were also overlaid. If MB is also a research treatise on politics seeking answers to political questions, then its major concerns will be two
(a) the moral, ethical basis of politics and rules or lessons to be learned relevant for current situation
(b) place narratives and weave them in a way that most intensely and pointedly carries the message.
So a mere abandonment and gradual migration of out of Krishna's Dwarka does not serve the pointed and dramatic message of "why" a culture declines and is "punished" - so the older submergence memory can be revived and makes a better contrast compared to the supposed moral degeneration of the Dwarkvasi-s.

[Sanku]

It is a possible theory yes!

[ramana]

Brihaspatiji,
Could the earlier Dwaraka submergence be a coastal migration memory? Recall the "Out of Africa" postualtes the coastal route for the journey of humankind. So can we match the timeline for Edward Openheimer(Bradshaw Foundation) theory to that of massive floods and see any correlation?

[brihaspati]

Possible. I was tying up the under-water archaeological findings of a suspected township - estimated date almost 7000-8000 YBP with the rising waters until around 5700 BCE. Oppenheimers migrations - which are significant - are primarily before the intensification of the ice-age. These are at various stages starting around 45000 BCE, 40KBCE, 35-30-27-22-17 KBCE. But the 8000-6000 BCE continuous sea-level rise could have important "memory" components and migrations associated with it that can be implied from "mythical" memory. However no significant paleo-DNA analysis specifically to test this migration has yet been undertaken.

Some possible impact according to me is the significant finding that the south Indian "caste" lines became strictly endogamous around 5700 BCE. Now elsewhere in the world, such as pre-historic Europe - we do find that concerns about "sexual purity" and endogamy-exogamy etc suddenly appear when the population density increases. When population is sparse, probably genetic variation and access to greater reproductive resources is a must - so less of Hudood. When the scenario changes, with more people competing and jostling for the same resources, we have things like endogamy. So this same period could be seeing the peak migration from the coasts towards inland. I would see therefore even the Ramayana episode (if acceptable in this "modern" period) as a similar conflict scenario where inlanders are trying to expand and the coastal more advanced -trade/urbanization based societies being pushed inland by rising waters.

[RamaY]

Background: After Mahabharata war, Dharmaraja was overwhelmed by loss of relatives, especially Karna, and wants to leave the kingdom and take Samnyasa path.

longtime ago two brahmin brothers, Sankha and Likhita, were living on a river bank. Both the brothers were very dharmic. One day Sankha went out. Likhita cut a fruit from a near by tree and ate them. Sankha noticed this after his return and told Likhita that "since he cut the fruits without his permission, it amounts to theft. Go to the king and accept the punishment he gives".

Likhita honored his brother's command and went to king Sudyumna's court and told the king that he stole the fruits and is ready for any punishment king is going to give him.

King Sudyumna hesitated to punish great Likhita, but ordered to cut his both hands at the insistence of Likhita.

Likhita was happy to receive the punishment by law (king) and returned to brother Sankhu and informed him about it. Sankhu too was happy to hear that his brother is purified by the punishment. He asked his brother to take a holy dip in the river.

Likhita regained his hands as he took the holy dip in the river. He returned to his brother and showed him his hands in happiness. Sankha told him that "God appreciated you for getting purified with the punishment by king/law, and gave your hands back. King Sudanya too received immense punya (right-karma) for punishing you."

A society where everyone understands their mistakes and approaches the beholder of law for punishment, requires no extensive police/law-and-order infrastructure. Nature too will be happy and takes care of their desires.

[RamaY]

India has no shortage of the dead hand of ritual.

In a marriage ceremony, the mantar-yantar may go on interminably (one marriage ceremony lasted longer than one of my marriages).

All across India, icons may be awoken each morning, washed, dressed, fed and may even be taken out on a ritual journey. Many of the devotees, it may be superfluous to state, do not have the luxury of home, water, clothes or food.

Let us look as unflinchingly at ourselves as we do the westerner.

I myself practice it as a form of yoga.

1. Marriage Ceremony is the pillar of Sanatana Dharma. One would understand it if one knows the meaning of those mantras and rituals.

The giving away of the bride (Kanya-Danam)

[Note: ‘Kanya’ means daughter or girl. ‘Daan’ means giving away. This is an important part of the marriage ceremony in which the bride’s parents give her away to the groom by entrusting her to the bridegroom. The officiating priest chants appropriate verses in Sanskrit. The people in the audience (the public) is now notified that the parents have willingly expressed their wish and consent by requesting the groom to accept their daughter as his bride. As soon as the groom indicates his acceptance the bride’s parents place their daughter’s right hand into the bridegroom’s right hand. The parents now bestow their blessings on both the bride and the groom and pray to the Lord to shower His choicest blessings on them.]

The father of the bride, placing her right hand on the right hand of the bridegroom, says:

The father of the bride:
Be pleased to accept hand of my daughter (name of the bride) of the Gotra (here the surname of the family shall be given).

The bridegroom:
AUM, I do accept.

The bridegroom makes an Offering of the garment and the scarf to the bride to wear.

The bridegroom wears the garments and the scarf offered by the parents of the bride.

Then facing each other The bride and the bridegroom speak as follows:

Ye learned people assembled at this sacred ceremony know it for certain that we two hereby accept each other as companions for life and agree to live together most cordially as husband and wife. May the hearts of us both be blended and beat in unison. May we love each other like the very breath of our lives. As the all-pervading God sustains the universe, so may we sustain each other. As a preceptor loves his disciple, so may we love each other steadfastly
and faithfully.

- RigVeda X.85.47

Addressing the bride, the bridegroom says:
1.Distant though we were, one from the other, we stand now united. May we be of one mind and spirit!

2. Through the grace of God, may the eyes radiate benevolence. Be thou my shield. May thou have a cheerful heart and a smiling face. May thou be a true devotee of God and mother of heroes. May thou have at heart the welfare of all living beings!

Rig Veda X.85.44

The bride:
I pray that henceforth I may follow thy path. May my body be free from disease and defect and may I ever enjoy the bliss of your companionship!

2. Temple ceremonies - They have a higher symbolism than what one sees in the ritual. I will give an analogy. It may appear stupid and ritualistic when someone plants a mango seed and waters it as it takes years for the plant to grow and give results. But when the tree grows it gives joy (thru fruits, shade and yes, holy mango leaves as Toranas) to many families.

Millions of Hindus help their fellow Hindus and non-Hindus every day and they donate billions of rupees to those hundreds of thousands of temples all over India. It is the secular governments that are failing India and Indians.

I can understand one's sorrow to see others' suffering but it is utter stupidity to blame Hinduism. I am really sorry to say that.

[RamaY]

Interested Rakshaks in North-East US

They are conducting a "Ati Rudra Yagna" planned between 7/1 - 7/11.

This Yagna brings peace and prosperity for all humanity. Removes the ill effects of Saturn for participants.

http://www.Srividya.org

What is Ati Rudram?

Sri Rudram is broken into two parts: Namakam (ends with Namah = adoration for you being this and that...) and Chamakam (ends with Cha = bless me with this and that...). Each or broken into 11 sections or Anuvakams.

1 Rudram = 1 Namakam and 1 Anuvakam from the Chamakam
11 Rudrams (Ekadasa Rudram) = 11 Namakams and 1 Chamakam
121 Rudrams (Laghyrudram) = 121 Namakams and 11 Chamakams
1331 Rudrams (Maharudram) = 1331 Namakams and 121 Chamakams
14641 Rudrams (Atirudram) = 14641 Namakams and 1331 Chamakams

P.S: The mantra I posted earlier to save ocean, plant and animal life from BP spil is the 3rd Mantra in 1st Anuvaka of Namakam.

[RamaY]

In Mahabharata, Janamejaya was mentioned as having six able brothers viz, Kakshasena, Ugrasena, Chitrasena, Indrasena, Sushena and Nakhaysena[4]. The initial chapters of the epic narrates various aspects of his life including his conquest of Takshasila and about his encounter with Naga Takshaka. He wanted to exterminate the race of Nagas, since Takshaka was responsible for the death of his father Parikshit.

I was reading about Janamejaya and came across this. Is there any relation between Takshaka (great Naga) and Takshasila, the region?

[Atri]

In Mahabharata, Janamejaya was mentioned as having six able brothers viz, Kakshasena, Ugrasena, Chitrasena, Indrasena, Sushena and Nakhaysena[4]. The initial chapters of the epic narrates various aspects of his life including his conquest of Takshasila and about his encounter with Naga Takshaka. He wanted to exterminate the race of Nagas, since Takshaka was responsible for the death of his father Parikshit.

I was reading about Janamejaya and came across this. Is there any relation between Takshaka (great Naga) and Takshasila, the region?

He established that city. It is possible that Nag race (a dispersed group of people with particular belief and ethnicity) had one of their power-centres in Takshashila region. The Kashmiri Saivism is distinctively different from other forms.

This story is very high significance in current times, while dealing with Maoists. One should read it thoroughly and understand the "Marma".. Indraay Swaha, Takshakaay Swaha..

[RamaY]

^ If that were true, that means

- Naga race is not limited to southern peninsula alone and it moved northwards before Janamejaya. The dating of MB is <3100BC combined with this fact is another nail in AIT and Arya-Dravida divide.

- This Dravida theory is false even in Ramayana time. Kubera is Ravana's brother and is said to be lived north of Himalayas (Tibet/Mangolia/CAR/Russia regions). Ravana brought Pushpaka Vimana after defeating Kubera in a war. Ravana being one of the foremost brahmana (great grandson of Pulastya brahma - one of the prajapatis) and brother of Kubera (a Dikpala) makes him more Aryan then Rama (if that distinction ever existed)

[Carl_T]

Much confused, what does this discussion about Aryas, Nagas and Ramayana have to do with AIT??

[RamaY]

Much confused, what does this discussion about Aryas, Nagas and Ramayana have to do with AIT??

There is a confused section of Indians who think Ramayana is a story of Aryan southward expansion (even a person like Dr. S Radhakrishnan points that out) and Ravana is a Dravidian king (that is why he is labeled as Rakshasa/Asura because he was dark and Dravidian ). The funniest thing is that they use Rama's journey from Ayodhya to Lanka to substantiate their claims.

Secondly Naga-race is also projected as a dravidian race (low lands).

Hope this clarifies... I am just compiling different points as I come across them...

[BajKhedawal]

I have two very novice questions, 2nd question is more important for me to know in detail:

1. The names: Duryodhan and Dushashan have obvious negative connotations. Why would a parent name their kids as such? Moreover, when they grow up wouldn’t this chap’s take offense and change their name to something decent? Since they obviously did not see themselves as being in light of their namesake.

2. Who were Hanumanji’s best friends? (I know Sugrive and Vali, but he surely had other comrades)

Thanks.

[munna]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/south_ ... 401741.stm

The air is filled with the sweet smell of incense burning in a corner of the huge hall.

Wrapped in shiny bright clothes, idols of Hindu gods and goddesses smile benevolently from the elevated platform.

Sitting on the white marble floor a group of more than 50 men, women and children sing devotional Hindi songs.

Nothing extraordinary about this scene, except that the temple is in Ghana and the devotees are all indigenous Africans.

The tall cone-shaped temple emerges out of the crowded neighbourhood of Orkordi on the outskirts of the capital Accra. It can be easily identified - the holy Sanskrit word 'Om' shines on its top.

Indian feel
The devotees here have no links with India and have never visited the country. Still they strictly follow religious rules and observe rituals in traditional Hindu way.

They say they have all converted to Hinduism but many still use their Christian names and African surnames.

However, they give their young ones Hindu names like Rama or Krishna.

Once inside the temple, you forget that you are a continent away from India.

Diyas or little lamps are lit in obeisance to the gods. Surprisingly, there is even a picture of Jesus Christ amid the idols of Hindu deities.

Come evening and the devotees gather in the temple hall for evening prayer rituals. Holy offerings to the gods are distributed after prayers.

Swami Ghanananda Saraswati, the man who established Ghana's first African Hindu Monastery in 1975, oversees the prayers sitting in a high chair.

<snip>

Swami Ghanananda Swaraswati established the temple in 1975
"I was born in a village nearby into a native Ghanaian faith," he says.

But his parents converted to Christianity. "From a very early age I would think about the mysteries of the universe and try to find the answers in religious texts. But I failed," Swami Ghanananda says.

Then he read some books on Hindu faith and embarked upon a new journey which took him to Rishikesh in north India.

He spent some time there with a spiritual guru who suggested him to open the monastery in Accra.

Ask Swami Ghanananda his original name and the reply comes promptly: "My real name is Guide!"

'No conversion'
It's not been easy for him to keep the faith.

<snip>

There is even one Muslim among the devotees.

Jamer Baroudy says he was born into the Islamic faith but his mother introduced him to Hinduism when he was eight years old.

Mr Baroudy says: "I am aware that Islam prohibits idol worshipping but then God doesn't make any distinction. I visit this temple because I find solace here."
<snip>

For a change Beeb behaves like a good boy and reports something refreshing!

[Carl_T]

There is a confused section of Indians who think Ramayana is a story of Aryan southward expansion (even a person like Dr. S Radhakrishnan points that out) and Ravana is a Dravidian king (that is why he is labeled as Rakshasa/Asura because he was dark and Dravidian ). The funniest thing is that they use Rama's journey from Ayodhya to Lanka to substantiate their claims.

That is quite creative! Had not heard this one yet, I didn't know that Ravana/Asuras were even described as dark.

[RamaY]

Today's tidbit

- When Pandavas reached kindom of Panchala before their marriage with Draupadi, they stayed in a Potmaker's house, but lived a Brahmin's life (in disguise of course).

- There are other instances (other than Draupadi) where one woman married multiple men. Sage Jatila's daughter married Saptarishis (7 root-seers). Dakshayani, daughter of another sage, married 10 Prachetasas (sons of Prachetasa?).

[brihaspati]

You mean Prachetasa-s?

[RamaY]

Thanks for the correction Bji...

[jamwal]

A minor nitpick (maybe stupid)

Why every Bharatiya name in English ends with an "a" even when there is nothing like that when that word is spoken or spelled in Hindi or Sanskrit ?

Nakula, Arjuna, Rama, Bhima, Krishna, Dharma, Karna, Yoga

[RamaY]

It is language that transforms it... for example in Telugu it would be

Nakuludu, Arjunudu, Ramudu, Bhimudu, Krishnudu, Dharmamu, Karnudu, Yogamu

[Carl_T]

A minor nitpick (maybe stupid)

Why every Bharatiya name in English ends with an "a" even when there is nothing like that when that word is spoken or spelled in Hindi or Sanskrit ?

Nakula, Arjuna, Rama, Bhima, Krishna, Dharma, Karna, Yoga

Nope, the a is there in sanskrit.

[ravar]

Didn't know where else to post this.

Given below is the homepage of Indian Institute of Scientific Heritage which has been doing stupendous work based out of Keralam. The inspiration behind the organisation is Dr. N. Gopalakrishnan, who was a scientist at CSIR.

http://iish.org/

The Knowledge Centre page is a good repository of articles on ancient Indian texts, interpretations and the like. Ancient Indian science, philosophy and management are a few of the topics being covered. These include documents, talks and lectures (both audio and video).

Mods please let know if this has to be cross posted in other relevant threads, if there are any. TIA

[putnanja]

A minor nitpick (maybe stupid)

Why every Bharatiya name in English ends with an "a" even when there is nothing like that when that word is spoken or spelled in Hindi or Sanskrit ?

Nakula, Arjuna, Rama, Bhima, Krishna, Dharma, Karna, Yoga

Sanskrit has the "a", but Hindi doesn't. In sanskrit, when you spell राम , it is pronounced as "rama". In hindi, it is pronounced as "ram". In kannada, it is pronounced the same as in Sanskrit, though there are local variations too.

[ramana]

Same in Telugu. Looks like the non-Devanagari Prakrits adopted the phonetics of Sanskirt.

[naren]

There is a confused section of Indians who think Ramayana is a story of Aryan southward expansion (even a person like Dr. S Radhakrishnan points that out) and Ravana is a Dravidian king (that is why he is labeled as Rakshasa/Asura because he was dark and Dravidian ). The funniest thing is that they use Rama's journey from Ayodhya to Lanka to substantiate their claims.

That is quite creative! Had not heard this one yet, I didn't know that Ravana/Asuras were even described as dark.

I'm surprised that its new to you ! Whole Dravidianist nonsense is built on that premise. Some (not everyone, just some) Tamil Brahmins subscribe to that too - that they are TFTA Aryans who ended up with SDRE Dravidians.

[Atri]

^ If that were true, that means

- Naga race is not limited to southern peninsula alone and it moved northwards before Janamejaya. The dating of MB is <3100BC combined with this fact is another nail in AIT and Arya-Dravida divide.

- This Dravida theory is false even in Ramayana time. Kubera is Ravana's brother and is said to be lived north of Himalayas (Tibet/Mangolia/CAR/Russia regions). Ravana brought Pushpaka Vimana after defeating Kubera in a war. Ravana being one of the foremost brahmana (great grandson of Pulastya brahma - one of the prajapatis) and brother of Kubera (a Dikpala) makes him more Aryan then Rama (if that distinction ever existed)

Arjuna's wife "Uloopi" was a "Naag-Kanya" from Manipur...

[Abhi_G]

^^^^
I am not sure about the Manipur connection and Uloopi. Uloopi was definitely Naag kanya but the northeastern India connection (Pragjyotish) was due to Chitraangadaa who bore Babhruvahan to Arjun.

About "Ramaa", "Shivaa" -
The Sanskrit spelling does not end with "aa". Ram is Ram, there is a very slight emphasis on the "m" which is "m+a", i.e, it ends with "a" (first letter of Sanskrit vowels) which is not written. Shiv is Shiv in Sanskrit with "a" unwritten. But in some Indian languages, it does end with "aa" e.g. Sriraman => Sriramanaa, Shiv => Shivaa. The phonetic emphasis is mistranslated into the English letter a which makes it "aa", because there is no equivalent of Bharatiya "a" like in "a"dhikaar in English.

If there is no emphasis, then the word ends with "halanta" which makes the ending very short and abrupt. This is from my limited knowledge of Bangla-Sanskrit vyaakaran.

[Pulikeshi]

^Boss for those us who recited Rama shabda in infinite loops
Rama shabda ends in "a as in ant" for example not "a as in raant"
Also we are missing ah! ":" in the discussion

PS: Not prejudice, but just a preference. The tendency to cut short end too abruptly in some parts of India gets extremely distracting - especially when listen to Vedas etc.