brihaspati wrote:shyamd,
why is it you refuse to accept the fact that you did not post anything about the role of Muslims in genocide or even policy that could have "dispersed" Jews - when you started talking about the role of Romans, Persians and Christians? You in fact wrote rather favourably of their role - in your very first post on this you had no negative role assigned to Muslims although you did it explicitly in your list for non-Muslims. When I challenged you repeatedly you looked up wiki and quoted just one line of "social discrimination" and "massacre" without going into details while at the same time you wrote line after line describing atrocities by non-Muslims. I waited for a long time, repeatedly probing you to get you to post something negative about the Islamic role at the range you were posting about non-Muslims. Nothing -absolutely no gory details - just a repeated protestation that you have already said everything - which amounted to all of "social and economic discrimination" and "massacre" - just five words!
Mmmmm..... okay fair enough. Looking back at my first post, I was a bit too kind on the muslims, but never meant to absolve them of what they did, rather to highlight that they werent the only ones responsible - which is known and accepted. But I did say social and economic discrimination - which is what happened, and massacreS - which is also wht happened.
The main debate was not about genocide but because initially you tried to show that the Jews were "kicked out" of Palestine BEFORE Muslims came in.
Which is true. You are saying the romans didn't kill. enslave majority of the jews living in palestine?
I can understand why you needed to insist on this because it then absolves the Muslims of the role in the dispersal of the Jews from their homeland.
Not really. I have said that muslims played a role too. Just because roman's did it doesnt mean it absolves muslims of what they did. I don't agree with that at all. I have said clearly they all had a role to play many times.
Therefore I had to brush your history up on the "returns" of the Jews which you conveneiently forgot to mention - that happened after each such "kicking out".
Do post of returning after the romans expelled the jews.
Eevn then you were sarcastic, and still ignored important phases. Right at the very beginning of the mention of the crusades - I agreed straightaway that there are narratives of Crusader atrocities on the Jews - but you never mentioned anything about Crusader atrocities on Muslims and Christians too - because that would have wakened your focus.
The muslims were harsh on christians as well as jews, whats your point?
Here is a post on dispersion by the Romans.
DIASPORA
By : Richard Gottheil Théodore Reinach
Vicissitudes of Roman Rule.
During this period the Jewish community possessed special privileges, both religious and juridical: in short, it constituted, as under the Achæmenidæ and the Lagides, a hierocracy under the protection of a foreign master. This régime, interrupted for several years (41-44) by the restoration of the Herodian dynasty in favor of Herod Agrippa, could be upheld only by dint of tact and precaution. The agents of Rome, like the Seleucids before them, were unable to satisfy a people at once so impressionable and turbulent.
Repeated blunders brought about the formidable insurrection of 66-70, terminating in the capture of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple, the center of the national and religious life of the Jews throughout the world.
After this catastrophe, Judea formed a separate Roman province, governed by a legate, at first "pro prætore," and later, "pro consule," who was also the commander of the army of occupation.
The complete destruction of the Holy City, and the settlement of several Grecian and Roman colonies in Judea, indicated the express intention of the Roman government to prevent the political regeneration of the Jewish nation. Nevertheless, forty years later the Jews put forth efforts to recover their former freedom. With Palestine exhausted, they strove, in the first place, to establish upon the ruins of Hellenism actual commonwealths in Cyrene, Cyprus, Egypt, and Mesopotamia. These efforts, resolute but unwise, were suppressed by Trajan (115-117); and
under Hadrian the same fate befell the last and glorious attempt of the Jews of Palestine to regain their independence (133-135). From this time on, in spite of unimportant movements under Antoninus, Marcus Aurelius, and Severus,
the Jews of Palestine, reduced in numbers, destitute, and crushed, lost their preponderance in the Jewish world. The Jews no longer had reason to cling to a soil where the recollection of their past grandeur only helped to render more bitter the spectacle of their present humiliation, where their metropolis had become, under the name "Ælia Capitolina," a Roman colony, a city entirely pagan, to enter which was forbidden the Jews, under pain of death.
Dispersion.
II. The vicissitudes just described
exerted a decisive influence upon the dispersion of the Jewish people throughout the world.
Successive revolutions in Cœle-Syria had caused, century after century, the emigration of Jews in great numbers, who, having combined with one of the competitors, chose to follow him in his retreat rather than to expose themselves to the vengeance of the conqueror. Thus, as far back as Jeremiah, a small diaspora was formed in Egypt (Jer. xxiv. 8, xxvi. 22, xlii.-xliv.).
When Ptolemy I. evacuated Syria many of the Jews voluntarily followed him to his kingdom (Hecatæus, of Abdera, 14, cited by Josephus, "Contra Ap." i. 22; idem, "Ant." xii. 1).
A similar thing occurred in 198 (Jerome, "Ad Dan.," xi. 708); and under Ptolemy VI. Philometor, the son of the high priest Onias, disappointed in his expectations, betook himself with a considerable number of followers to Egypt, and
there set up a rival temple to that of Jerusalem ("Ant." xiii. 3).
On the other hand, during the wars of the third and second centuries B.C., thousands of Jews were made captives and reduced to slavery, passing from owner to owner and from land to land until their enfranchisement. This enfranchisement indeed usually occurred very soon, it being precipitated by the fact that, through their unswerving attachment to their customs, they proved inefficient servants. Besides, owing to the close solidarity which is one of the lasting traits of the Jewish race, they had no difficulty in finding coreligionists who were willing to pay the amount of their ransom. The inscriptions of Delphi have preserved an instance of these enfranchisements of Jewish slaves by payment of money (Collitz, "Griech. Dialektinschr." ii. 2029; the amount paid was 4 minas, or about $80). The celebrated rhetorician Cecilius of Calacte was originally a Jewish slave (Suidas, s.v.); he was confounded by Plutarch with the questor of Verres, Cecilius Niger, who was perhaps his patron.
Deportations.
The Jews thus freed, instead of returning to Palestine, usually remained in the land of their former slavery, and there, in conjunction with their brethrenin faith, established communities.
According to the formal testimony of Philo ("Legatio ad Caium," § 23), the Jewish community in Rome owed its origin to released prisoners of war. The political importance which it had already acquired in the proceedings against Flaccus (59 B.C.) shows that it did not consist merely of a few captives brought by Pompey (63 B.C.), but rather of prisoners made in earlier wars—in Asia Minor, for instance. The great Jewish insurrections under Vespasian, Trajan, and Hadrian, terminating, as they did, so disastrously,
threw upon the market myriads of Jewish captives. Transported to the West, they became the nuclei of communities in Italy, Spain, Gaul, etc. Among these captives was the historian of the Jewish people, Flavius Josephus. Under Domitian the Jewish slaves in Rome were sold at very low prices. Even the poet Martial, whose purse was never well filled, possessed one ("Epig." vii. 35; the interpretation, however, is uncertain). The names of many Jews found in the tumulary inscriptions in Rome betray their servile origin.
To these sales of prisoners of war must be added, as further sources of the Diaspora, the deportations, more or less voluntary, effected by the various governments, either to chastise the rebels or to populate the uninhabited parts of their territories. Not to mention the great Babylonian exile, and the transportation of Jews to Hyrcania by Ochus (Syncellus, i. 486; Orosius, iii. 7), Ptolemy I., according to tradition, took with him to Egypt 30,000 (?) Jews, in order to garrison the frontiers (Pseudo-Aristæus, ed. Schmidt, p. 255; "Ant." xii. 1). T
he same king compelled Jews to settle in Cyrenaica ("Contra Ap." ii. 4). Antiochus the Great, it is said, transferred to the sparsely populated districts of Phrygia and Lydia 2,000 Jewish families drawn from Mesopotamia ("Ant." xii. 3, § 4). Tiberius sent 4,000 Jews of Rome to wage a war in Sardinia (Tacitus, "Annales," ii. 85), many of whom perished, while the survivors must have formed the nucleus of a Jewish community in that country.
Many rulers, without resorting to violent measures, made successful efforts to attract Jewish colonists to the newly founded cities by conceding to them important privileges. Such was the policy, if not of Alexander, at any rate of Seleucus Nicator, Ptolemy Philadelphus, the successors of Antiochus Epiphanes (in Antioch), etc.
This shows that jews once exiled to europe and other parts of the empire decided to stay in their respective countries and NOT return to Israel/palestine. The centre of jewish population has constantly shifted over 2000 years.
from countries like Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia, about human rights from countries which dont even have human rights for their women.
I am sure.
But in the last 10 years, probably after 9/11 the media has toned that attitude down and slowly the Palestinians have been framed with what I mentioned above.