MRCA News and Discussion

[shukla]

The link to the translated article is given here

Thanks mate!

[Austin]

Yeah Gripen IN would be a better choice and win for MMRCA and AFAIK their prices are low compared to others in the race.

[shukla]

Talking about the Gripen.. Aviation week reports..

New Swedish Gripen Firms Up

According to Saab executives, the decision to go ahead with the Gripen Next Generation (NG) fighter has already been made by the Swedish government. If Saab wins one or more of the upcoming fighter competitions — with Brazil and Switzerland among those closest to a decision date — it will affect the timing of Sweden’s own deployment of the Gripen NG, already identified by the Swedish military as the JAS 39E/F. But the decision to acquire the fighter is a done deal, according to the head of Gripen marketing and campaigns, Hans Rosen.

“Sweden has committed itself to using the Gripen beyond 2040,” Rosen said at Malmen Air Base June 12. “The question is when to acquire the Gripen NG, and how many.” The basic program calls for the new variant to enter service in 2017-18, but Sweden has told export customers that it will adjust its schedule so that Sweden deploys the JAS 39E/F before they do.

Does that mean that if chosen, induction in IAF would be delayed?

[chackojoseph]

Last section of the folder, the resale of UAE Mirage 2000-9. A very sensitive issue in the UAE, which do not want that Paris sees to it. According to reports, Abu Dhabi and Qatar have done, with the benevolence of France, a joint proposal to sell their 72 Mirage 2000 (60 for UAE and 12 for Qatar) to India. This would open a serious lead for the Rafale in the very francophile Qatar . Nicolas Sarkozy had praised the qualities of the aircraft to the Emir of Qatar at the Elysee Palace this year. India could therefore find themselves at the head of a fleet of more than 120 cheap and efficient Mirage, counting the 51 Mirage 2000 it already has, to be upgraded by Thales and Dassault Aviation, finally convinced. This led some to say that India could then take his time to manage the call for tenders for 127 new generation aircraft it has launched

Insha allah, kahani me new twist.

[Samay]

How much secure gripen's technology is from pakistan?
If we go for it then they could purchase a couple of squadrons from SAAB, the result would be same as if we purchased f16.

[chackojoseph]

How much secure gripen's technology is from pakistan?
If we go for it then they could purchase a couple of squadrons from SAAB, the result would be same as if we purchased f16.

Sweden sold stuff to Pakistan with infamous AQ Khan ring. Although its dual use.

Also, IIRC, swedish law prohibits use of its weapons for war by foreign countries.

[Philip]

The view against buying old Mirages is that we will first have to upgrade them at very high costs,and even then they will be inferior to some of the aircraft on offer! The IAFs Mirage-2000s were proven inferior to the old versions of the MIG-29 (VAYU)a long time ago and will still be inferior to the MIG-35,Typhoon and Rafale.Why should we buy these aircraft,which Paki pilots may have already flown which in any case will be the equivalent of a Mirage upgrasde as was done for the MIG-21 Bisons.These aircraft will have half the service life left in them and be quite inferior to any 4++ fighters,let alone 5th-gen fighters in the future.Why should India be dumped with cast-offs that too from the UAE,etc.in order that the French can sell Brazil and the Swiss better Rafales!

[Wickberg]

Sweden sold stuff to Pakistan with infamous AQ Khan ring. Although its dual use.

Also, IIRC, swedish law prohibits use of its weapons for war by foreign countries.

Don´t really know what you mean with your first sentence there...

2nd, no there is no law in Sweden that prohibits export of arms to be used in war or exporting to countries in war. For example right now Sweden is exporting arms to USA and other countries that are being used in Iraq and Afghanistan.
There is however a committee of people that decides on each and every arms export what is allowed and what is not. These people have certain guidelines (or recommendations) to work within. We have seen a shift in that committee the last couple of decades where they allow more exports then it used to be (much of that is probably due to the fact that the Swedish armed forces don´t order as much as they used to, and money-employment is offcourse a reality).
When Pakistan approached SAAB and Sweden in the 1990´s and wanted to purchase the Gripen they were denied. No reason given. I could guess that SAAB and Sweden also fear the fact that much of the technology in a Pakistan Gripen could have ended up in the hands of the Chinese...

[Singha]

but the far more sensitive Ereyie technology has been exported. I guess because Pak was already getting the chinese awacs and the market opportunity would be lost. money talks.

[Austin]

Well in the past and even now countries like US , France have exported weapons to pakistan , if US can sell us weapon and French can , see no reason why Sweden should not get the same treatment.

[Wickberg]

but the far more sensitive Ereyie technology has been exported. I guess because Pak was already getting the chinese awacs and the market opportunity would be lost. money talks.

I´ll guess it´s easier to keep track on 4-5 SAAB 2000 Erieyes then a couple of hundred fighters. (But that was just one of the reason I guessed on, there´s probably a lot others that played its part when Pakistan was denied the Gripen)

[Wickberg]

Well in the past and even now countries like US , France have exported weapons to pakistan , if US can sell us weapon and French can , see no reason why Sweden should not get the same treatment.

Sweden has and still does sell weapons to Pakistan. But it has mostly been "defensive" kind of weapons like manpads, AAA, trainer aircrafts etc. Gripen can hardly sees like a "defensive" weapons platform.

And the be honest, USA and specially France have in the past (and to some degree still do) exported weapons to countries that have been totally out of the question for Swedish arms exports. Countries with cruel dictators that uses the weapons towards its own citizens etc.

[Indranil]

The view against buying old Mirages is that we will first have to upgrade them at very high costs,and even then they will be inferior to some of the aircraft on offer! The IAFs Mirage-2000s were proven inferior to the old versions of the MIG-29 (VAYU)a long time ago and will still be inferior to the MIG-35,Typhoon and Rafale.Why should we buy these aircraft,which Paki pilots may have already flown which in any case will be the equivalent of a Mirage upgrasde as was done for the MIG-21 Bisons.These aircraft will have half the service life left in them and be quite inferior to any 4++ fighters,let alone 5th-gen fighters in the future.Why should India be dumped with cast-offs that too from the UAE,etc.in order that the French can sell Brazil and the Swiss better Rafales!

Philip saar the Mig-29 and the Mirages are for different arenas. Though both are sometimes advertised as multirole, the Mirage is a awesome A2G platform and the Mig-29 is a superb A2A platform! This was on display at Kargil!

The Iaf wanted the Mirage-2000-5/9 in first place. It was only because their lines were closed did we go to the MMRCA. So, no sir I don't think that the Mirages we are speaking of here would need deep upgrades! The Mirage-2000-9 is quite an up-to-date fighter in first place!

[Ponen]

“Sweden has committed itself to using the Gripen beyond 2040,” Rosen said at Malmen Air Base June 12. “The question is when to acquire the Gripen NG, and how many.” The basic program calls for the new variant to enter service in 2017-18, but Sweden has told export customers that it will adjust its schedule so that Sweden deploys the JAS 39E/F before they do.

Does that mean that if chosen, induction in IAF would be delayed?

I think what they mean is that if the Gripen NG gets an export customer, Sweden will buy some aircraft before the customer in order to not make them get any doubts of Sweden not supporting the NG themselves. I think it's more of an insurance thing to the customer rather than that Sweden wants their fighters first.
So no, it should not affect induction into any air force (after all they said that they would adjust their schedules for it as well).

[Austin]

Sweden has and still does sell weapons to Pakistan. But it has mostly been "defensive" kind of weapons like manpads, AAA, trainer aircrafts etc. Gripen can hardly sees like a "defensive" weapons platform.

And the be honest, USA and specially France have in the past (and to some degree still do) exported weapons to countries that have been totally out of the question for Swedish arms exports. Countries with cruel dictators that uses the weapons towards its own citizens etc.

And franly speaking I do not see any weapon as defensive or offensive , even so called defensive weapon can improve the performance of offensive system or aid in that.

I dont think selling pakistan to weapon should be used as a benchmark to ban such countries from selling weapon to us , does not sound fair when there are bigger sharks who did dirty things to us in the past.

[Wickberg]

And franly speaking I do not see any weapon as defensive or offensive , even so called defensive weapon can improve the performance of offensive system or aid in that.

I dont think selling pakistan to weapon should be used as a benchmark to ban such countries from selling weapon to us , does not sound fair when there are bigger sharks who did dirty things to us in the past.

I agree, but the "defensive" thing can be used as an excuse to certain media and politicians that criticizes (almost every) weapons sale. The Erieye-sale for example SAAB and the committee used the 2005 Pakistan earthquake as an excuse. In 2005 Sweden sent a special plane equipped with the SAAB Carabas radar that were used to locate roads, people, houses etc that had been collapsed and buried. The Erieye could be used in such disasters as be used in catching smugglers crossing the Afghan-Pakistan border etc. Well, that is correct but that is not its main purpose as we all know.

One of the funniest thing I heard was when a salesman from Bofors explained that the RBS-70 Manpad was good for the environment. Apparently during the Iran-Iraq war a number of the smuggled systems to Iran was put on off shore oil-rigs and after that the Iraqis stopped attacking those. Thus the RBS-70 have helped the environment in the Gulf. I´m guessing he was kind of kidding but these kinds of explanations can be used as excuses to those who criticizes weapons export...

But now were way OT I feel...

[chackojoseph]

Sweden sold stuff to Pakistan with infamous AQ Khan ring. Although its dual use.

Also, IIRC, swedish law prohibits use of its weapons for war by foreign countries.

Don´t really know what you mean with your first sentence there...

2nd, no there is no law in Sweden that prohibits export of arms to be used in war or exporting to countries in war. For example right now Sweden is exporting arms to USA and other countries that are being used in Iraq and Afghanistan.
There is however a committee of people that decides on each and every arms export what is allowed and what is not. These people have certain guidelines (or recommendations) to work within. We have seen a shift in that committee the last couple of decades where they allow more exports then it used to be (much of that is probably due to the fact that the Swedish armed forces don´t order as much as they used to, and money-employment is offcourse a reality).
When Pakistan approached SAAB and Sweden in the 1990´s and wanted to purchase the Gripen they were denied. No reason given. I could guess that SAAB and Sweden also fear the fact that much of the technology in a Pakistan Gripen could have ended up in the hands of the Chinese...

Thanks for the clarification. If history serves right, Sweden has been a very anti-India European country.

let me read the riot act to you:

1) Sweden has been irresponsibly exporting dual use nuclear equipment to Pakistan via the now busted AQ Khan network. Please google.
2) Sweden has been irresponsibly acting towards Indian nuclear requirements. If you guys voted right this time was because of the US pressure.
3) Supplies weapons to Pakistanis.
4) You guys had restrictions on us during kargil and your parliament passed resolutions against India for using Swedish made arms in the conflict.

BTW, welcome to the Forum, hope you will have a comfortable stay.

[Austin]

One of the funniest thing I heard was when a salesman from Bofors explained that the RBS-70 Manpad was good for the environment. Apparently during the Iran-Iraq war a number of the smuggled systems to Iran was put on off shore oil-rigs and after that the Iraqis stopped attacking those. Thus the RBS-70 have helped the environment in the Gulf. I´m guessing he was kind of kidding but these kinds of explanations can be used as excuses to those who criticizes weapons export...

But now were way OT I feel...

OT but the most environmental friendly yet very powerful weapon is 4th Gen TN device , coz they do not use any fissile material , Like Clean Bum , Green Bum

The most challenging ( technically ) statement came from R Chidambaram when in an interview to DD claimed that BARC was working on such weapon

[Wickberg]

Thanks for the clarification. If history serves right, Sweden has been a very anti-India European country.

let me read the riot act to you:

1) Sweden has been irresponsibly exporting dual use nuclear equipment to Pakistan via the now busted AQ Khan network. Please google.
2) Sweden has been irresponsibly acting towards Indian nuclear requirements. If you guys voted right this time was because of the US pressure.
3) Supplies weapons to Pakistanis.
4) You guys had restrictions on us during kargil and your parliament passed resolutions against India for using Swedish made arms in the conflict.

BTW, welcome to the Forum, hope you will have a comfortable stay.

1) Ok, so I googled that and could´nt actually find anything about Swedish nuclear equipment to Pakistan. Except a forum post where some one claimed that Sweden had exported X-ray devices (which can be used for nuclear weapons) to both India and Pakistan. Several other countries seems to have exported far "worse" gadgets in that technology (like Belgium, Canada, France, Germany, Holland, Switzerland and USA), so I´ll guess they are/have been much more "anti-Indian"?
2) I don´t really know how Sweden have acted towards Indian nuclear requirements.
3) Well, compared to a lot other countries (like all of them in the MRCA-race) Swedish arms export to Pakistan have been close to nothing.
4) All that Bofors-India-howitzer-bribe-deal is a tangled mess, and I don´t even know which end to start untangling. I´ll just leave the matter to be, cause it´s a hornest nest. What baffles me tough is that the Kargil war was a low-intensity war lasting for some 3 months. Should´nt the Indian army have enough ammo and spares to last them for more then that? Perhaps exporting more ammo and spares to a country in full out war with another nation, specially to the (in Sweden at least) controversial howitzsers was to much a hot potato? I don´t know.

But Sweden is and have exported spares and ammo to countries in war. That is then being explained as it is part of the original contract and no new systems, therefor cannot be forbidden. I´ll guess it´s all how the contract is stipulated. When it comes to new weapons exports however, every sale must go through that committee. And as I said, much have changed since the end of the cold war.
I remember in the early 1990s when the Swedish armed forces were started to be cut down. Thousands and thousands of weapons, vehicles etc were not needed anymore. Morocco wanted to buy a few thousands trucks but were denied cause the hatch over the passengerside were still there and they could fit a machinegun on there, therefor it was classified as a military weapon...a simple truck. Then the UN wanted to buy them for use in Africa in their missions, they were also denied for the same reason, there were fears that the trucks would be left behind after the UN left and used by local warlords, dictators. So instead of earning some millions in selling them (many of the trucks were brand new) Sweden decided to spent millions in scrapping them.

But as I said, much have changed and I have never felt that Sweden ever were particular anti-Indian. Actually the contrary...

Edit: Thanks for the warm welcome but I have actually been here for a couple of years.

[MarcH]

This arms selling stuff to Pakistan is kinda funny. Them evil Swedes ! On the other hand Russian or Israeli 'assistance' to China is gently ignored by many people that bemoan US or in this case Swedish exports to Pakistan.
Without Russian and Israeli help China would still be flying MiG-19 and MiG-21 clones armed with crappy missiles.
Instead they have now a good amount of Flankers and already produced 200-250 J-10. Armed with missiles designed with Russian and Israeli assistance. Oh, and what a suprise Chinese aircraft are sold to Pakistan.

[nachiket]

This arms selling stuff to Pakistan is kinda funny. Them evil Swedes ! On the other hand Russian or Israeli 'assistance' to China is gently ignored by many people that bemoan US or in this case Swedish exports to Pakistan.
Without Russian and Israeli help China would still be flying MiG-19 and MiG-21 clones armed with crappy missiles.
Instead they have now a good amount of Flankers and already produced 200-250 J-10. Armed with missiles designed with Russian and Israeli assistance. Oh, and what a suprise Chinese aircraft are sold to Pakistan.

While I agree that talking about Swedish arms sales to Pakistan while ignoring Russian sales to china is hypocrisy, the American case is different. They are basically giving away weapons for free to pakistan.

[NRao]

This arms selling stuff to Pakistan is kinda funny. Them evil Swedes ! On the other hand Russian or Israeli 'assistance' to China is gently ignored by many people that bemoan US or in this case Swedish exports to Pakistan.
Without Russian and Israeli help China would still be flying MiG-19 and MiG-21 clones armed with crappy missiles.
Instead they have now a good amount of Flankers and already produced 200-250 J-10. Armed with missiles designed with Russian and Israeli assistance. Oh, and what a suprise Chinese aircraft are sold to Pakistan.

True.

In fact THE problem in THIS matter is India itself. And, IMVVVHO, THAT issue will be corrected to a very great extent - (going out on a limb here) in about 10 years or so. 2020 - the magik year.

[NRao]

Climbing another limb: India will select the F-18 for the M/MRCA AND then for IAC-2 (Indian Navy air craft carrier #2) onwards will host the F-18 too, with a US EMAL, the E-2D and a ship based air tanker.

I have a very strong feeling that India has been waiting for some US technologies to mature and be adopted by the US before making a decision (on the Indian side). These technologies are maturing.

As I said ................. out on a limb ...........................

(added l8r: Please check naval thread on an update from IN side.)

[Wickberg]

But have any of you feel like your the devil to the Swedes? I have frriends living in India and have been working with the Swedish state. No one of us have ever felt "somting special" abpout India

[NRao]

But have any of you feel like your the devil to the Swedes? I have frriends living in India and have been working with the Swedish state. No one of us have ever felt "somting special" abpout India

I am happy for you.

[Craig Alpert]

F/A-18 as good as 5th gen: US Navy

[Carl_T]

Quite interesting because the USAF calls the F-22 a 4th Gen.

[NRao]

I would not put too much emphasis on such slides.

It is what IAF actually DOES with a F-18 - as they did with a Su-27/30 - that will matter. Expect changes to be made to them.

[chackojoseph]

1) Ok, so I googled that and could´nt actually find anything about Swedish nuclear equipment to Pakistan. Except a forum post where some one claimed that Sweden had exported X-ray devices (which can be used for nuclear weapons) to both India and Pakistan. Several other countries seems to have exported far "worse" gadgets in that technology (like Belgium, Canada, France, Germany, Holland, Switzerland and USA), so I´ll guess they are/have been much more "anti-Indian"?
2) I don´t really know how Sweden have acted towards Indian nuclear requirements.
3) Well, compared to a lot other countries (like all of them in the MRCA-race) Swedish arms export to Pakistan have been close to nothing.
4) All that Bofors-India-howitzer-bribe-deal is a tangled mess, and I don´t even know which end to start untangling. I´ll just leave the matter to be, cause it´s a hornest nest. What baffles me tough is that the Kargil war was a low-intensity war lasting for some 3 months. Should´nt the Indian army have enough ammo and spares to last them for more then that? Perhaps exporting more ammo and spares to a country in full out war with another nation, specially to the (in Sweden at least) controversial howitzsers was to much a hot potato? I don´t know.

But Sweden is and have exported spares and ammo to countries in war. That is then being explained as it is part of the original contract and no new systems, therefor cannot be forbidden. I´ll guess it´s all how the contract is stipulated. When it comes to new weapons exports however, every sale must go through that committee. And as I said, much have changed since the end of the cold war.
I remember in the early 1990s when the Swedish armed forces were started to be cut down. Thousands and thousands of weapons, vehicles etc were not needed anymore. Morocco wanted to buy a few thousands trucks but were denied cause the hatch over the passengerside were still there and they could fit a machinegun on there, therefor it was classified as a military weapon...a simple truck. Then the UN wanted to buy them for use in Africa in their missions, they were also denied for the same reason, there were fears that the trucks would be left behind after the UN left and used by local warlords, dictators. So instead of earning some millions in selling them (many of the trucks were brand new) Sweden decided to spent millions in scrapping them.

But as I said, much have changed and I have never felt that Sweden ever were particular anti-Indian. Actually the contrary...

Edit: Thanks for the warm welcome but I have actually been here for a couple of years.

Thanks. I am only telling how it is on the other side of the fence. Also, now, since Europe is so dependent on China, Europe will be subject to arm twisting and that relates to arms sales or after sales to India.

Even Russians bowed down Chinese the other day and stopped meeting Dalai Lama.

[Austin]

Quite interesting because the USAF calls the F-22 a 4th Gen.

USAF will call F-22 3rd Gen if that could generate 1000 more F-18/F-16 sales worldwide

[Sanku]

For the record, I am not aware of any particularly anti-Swedish feeling anywhere in India, let alone in the official circles.

[Austin]

Is Gripen IN the same as Gripen-NG or they providing any thing more with Gripen IN ?

[chackojoseph]

But have any of you feel like your the devil to the Swedes? I have frriends living in India and have been working with the Swedish state. No one of us have ever felt "somting special" abpout India

I am not sure we have anything against Swedes (actually some of us will stomp our own and placate white people). I was just listing what the Swedes have been up to. I would tell this to an American or a Russian (read my posts to Igorr).

As far as Chinese go, they have been serial offenders and we are not buying MMRCA from them.

[Wickberg]

Is Gripen IN the same as Gripen-NG or they providing any thing more with Gripen IN ?

Basely the same. But in the end it´s India who decides what avionics and weapons that should be integrated. It´s the as with any other export of the Gripen, it´s the customer choice. Therefor a Swedish Gripen is´nt 100% the same as the Thai, South African or the Czechoslovakian.
It´s a good thing I think, that the Gripen is designed to be easy to change/upgrade its software and integration of weaponry from almost all over the world...

[chackojoseph]

Basely the same. But in the end it´s India who decides what avionics and weapons that should be integrated. It´s the as with any other export of the Gripen, it´s the customer choice. Therefor a Swedish Gripen is´nt 100% the same as the Thai, South African or the Czechoslovakian.
It´s a good thing I think, that the Gripen is designed to be easy to change/upgrade its software and integration of weaponry from almost all over the world...

What about the engine? Isn't that American?

[Wickberg]

I am not sure we have anything against Swedes (actually some of us will stomp our own and placate white people). I was just listing what the Swedes have been up to. I would tell this to an American or a Russian (read my posts to Igorr).

As far as Chinese go, they have been serial offenders and we are not buying MMRCA from them.

OK, but was your list accurate? For example point 1-3 I could´nt find any proof of, you could help me with some links so I can get more informed.
And just to inform you (once again) Sweden 2010 is not the same as Sweden 1975, 1985 or even 1995. During the cold war Sweden played this role as a "neutral" country trying to be a mediator between every conflicting area on the earth, even tough the politicians and military knew we were more or less NATO-members. During most of these times we were ruled by Social democrats party, the worst hypocrites of them all. They knew (and supported) our close cooperation with USA but took every chance to criticize USA in the media, specially during the Vietnam war and under the leadership of Olof Palme. Then after the end of the cold war the world became a very turmoil place with local wars in every corner of the world (specially the former Soviet republics), major wars in the Desert Storm, Yugoslavia and Africa and Sweden really did´nt know how to adept to this new world order. But we soon adapted, joined the European Union, worked openly together with NATO and became what we always been, a western country. Now we have a Liberal (right wing) government and they seems to win the elections once again this fall. So, the Sweden I grew up in during the 1980s is totally different from the 90s and today. That fact also inflicts the committee that approves of weapons exports, they are human being living in the same society as I am...

[Wickberg]

What about the engine? Isn't that American?

You mean in the Gripen NG? It´s a joint collaboration between GE and Volvo Aero. But if a customer wants a EJ200 that´s not a problem to install in a Gripen.

[chackojoseph]

What about the engine? Isn't that American?

You mean in the Gripen NG? It´s a joint collaboration between GE and Volvo Aero. But if a customer wants a EJ200 that´s not a problem to install in a Gripen.

Can you please provide me the proof of that? because Grippen is offering ToT. Is there a conclusive proof that Engine technology will be transferred?

OK, but was your list accurate? For example point 1-3 I could´nt find any proof of, you could help me with some links so I can get more informed.

3) You want sales to Pakistan for proof?

Pakistan, Sweden to boost cooperation

RAWALPINDI, April 9 (SANA): Pakistan and Sweden have agreed to further enhance their bilateral cooperation, particularly in the field of defence.

The agreement came at a meeting between Federal Minister for Defence Production, Habibullah Warraich and the visiting State Secretary and Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister of Sweden, Lars Danielsson in here on Sunday.

The Minister apprised the visiting State Secretary about the potential of defence industry of Pakistan. They also discussed the possibility of undertaking a joint venture in defence production.

The two sides expressed satisfaction over the existing level of cooperation

http://www.kashar.net/complete.asp?id=3433

2) Read here What was perhaps more alarming for India was the apparent decision of eight nations- Austria, Denmark, Finland Ireland, New Zealand, Norway, Switzerland and Sweden – to push amendments to the US draft.
1) You mentioned it yourself of X-ray flash devices.

You know, I was expecting you to ask for point 4 rather than the 1st three. The point 4 is lesser know.

[Sanku]

Well if we want to make sure that we only deal with people how deal with Paki's -- Russia it is.

[sunilUpa]

Even Russia doesn't qualify, remember Bandars engine?

What is the purpose of buying MRCA? To restore squadron strength or to settle scores?