C-17s for the IAF?

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Sanku
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Sanku »

amit wrote:
Sanku wrote:The C 17 has never operated on a ALG anywhere with a load. The issue is that the ALG itself gets destroyed by the aircraft weight distribution.
Proof Buddy! Use your own standards. Remember anyone can write anything on the Internet. Direct quotes and no paraphrasing please. Unless you give proof, it's a lot of hot air onlee.
Feel free to disprove me, you can find a single reference to a ALG opertaion.

The problem with you is that you have a terribly poor understanding of logical operations, and thats saying it mildly.

The existence claim, "A can do this" needs to be proved by presence of event.

The non existence clain "A cannot do this" needs to be dis-proven by a counter example.

This is how logic works.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by geeth »

>>>Surya can speak for himself. But if your interested to know what I said and didn't say, you can check the previous pages to find out the conversation I had with Karan.

If he can, he will..There is no need for you to ask me to check back, when I showed you it is YOU who mentioned about Leh testing and not Gilles. If that is not the case, just say so, instead of asking me to do this or that.

>>>I find it strange you need to bring Surya into that. Even if he did get it mixed up, is that an excuse for you to do the same?

You still didn't get it why I brought in Surya..? It was because of what he said about Gilles and Leh testing - Sure he mixed up. Now you don't mix it up any further - it was you who mentioned about Leh Testing. I am not asking why, what for etc..it is part of the discussion. But It was YOU.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Debal »

I have no doubt that C-17 will pass all the tests with flying colors but still it does not make sense to purchase it with whooping price tag because India immediately needs radar network up-gradation and more fighters to match growing PRC numbers. As the C-17 has a very low VFM for India. Either country like US who undertakes varieties of ops around the globe or country like Saudi Arabia who does not bother for VFM can afford C-17.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Sanku »

@ Debal --

Yes especially considering that there is a range of options available for a heavy lift aircraft.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by amit »

Sanku wrote:Feel free to disprove me, you can find a single reference to a ALG opertaion.
So you pull out a statement and then the onus is on me to disapprove it and not on you to back it up with proof? :eek:

Your style of debate is... Oh well never mind! This is what happens when folks are short on facts and long on rhetoric.
Last edited by amit on 17 Jun 2010 15:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by amit »

geeth wrote:>>>Surya can speak for himself. But if your interested to know what I said and didn't say, you can check the previous pages to find out the conversation I had with Karan.

If he can, he will..There is no need for you to ask me to check back, when I showed you it is YOU who mentioned about Leh testing and not Gilles. If that is not the case, just say so, instead of asking me to do this or that.

>>>I find it strange you need to bring Surya into that. Even if he did get it mixed up, is that an excuse for you to do the same?

You still didn't get it why I brought in Surya..? It was because of what he said about Gilles and Leh testing - Sure he mixed up. Now you don't mix it up any further - it was you who mentioned about Leh Testing. I am not asking why, what for etc..it is part of the discussion. But It was YOU.
Let's leave it at that Geeth.

Your explanations are becoming more convoluted by the post.

Suffice to say I made no comment about short runway take off and landing by C17. We don't even know if that is one criteria desperately wanted by the IAF. They have lived with the Il76 for a long time and as far as I know it does not have that capability.

My last post on this issue. You can sort it out with Surya if you wish.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Sanku »

amit wrote:
Sanku wrote:Feel free to disprove me, you can find a single reference to a ALG opertaion.
So you pull out a statement and then the onus is on me to disapprove it and not on you to back it up with proof? :eek:

Your style of debate is... Oh well never mind!
The onus on you first and foremost is not to misrepresent others and not keep repeating the lies after it has been shown incorrect.

My style of debate is again irrelevant. What is relevant is facts on the ground.

Which is simple -- the multi-vendor process has not been followed and this is being pursued at a extremely fast speed even when IAF never spoke about need of such a Heavy lifter before last 2 years. Even over last two years there is only one "formal quote" to back that up. This when many more critical items languish.

Those are the facts much as others try and spin it.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Tanaji »

Sanku wrote:@ Debal --

Yes especially considering that there is a range of options available for a heavy lift aircraft.
No there are no "range of options" available currently.

Paper planes like An 124 100 and Il 476 that have no known schedule yet do not count
Airbus A400 is hopelessly backlogged

IAF wants it now, C17 is the only one in the class available NOW.

"Why now" and "Why so much capacity" you can take it up with IAF. They want it now, and want that capacity. So C17 is the only one.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Sanku »

Tanaji wrote:
Sanku wrote:@ Debal --

Yes especially considering that there is a range of options available for a heavy lift aircraft.
No there are no "range of options" available currently.

Paper planes like An 124 100 and Il 476 that have no known schedule yet do not count
Airbus A400 is hopelessly backlogged
The restrictions are all true for nearly every multi vendor deal including MRCA.

And if there was a delay in a month or so in IAFs expression of interest, the exact same would be true for C 17. A closed production line.
:P
IAF wants it now, C17 is the only one in the class available NOW.
That actually is the WHOLE problem.

Why NOW suddenly out of the BLUE.
:mrgreen:
"Why now" and "Why so much capacity" you can take it up with IAF. They want it now, and want that capacity. So C17 is the only one.
No I cant, but as long the forum exists, I will point out that it is very out of ordinary for the reasons mentioned

------------

Meanwhile the answers to Why now etc are as follows
1) Interoperability with US
2) Force projection in partnership

These two reasons were expressly mentioned in the only article we have from Senior IAF officer on C 17s.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by amit »

Sanku wrote:My style of debate is again irrelevant.
So your style of debate is irrelevant. But you spend tons of bandwidth dissecting my style of debate! :rotfl:

Your latest being:
Sanku wrote:The problem with you is that you have a terribly poor understanding of logical operations, and thats saying it mildly... and da da da da!
Man you're tying yourself into knots!
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Sanku »

Some one has to keep the record straight and point out lies when they are posted. It is not my fault they primarily originate from one or two people on a repeated basis.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Sanku »

Yawn.....

(you can ignore me you know, I have asked you many times to)

PS> I see you made yet another aspersion on me and then deleted it. Good.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by amit »

I deleted it because I don't want to respond to your acquisition that I'm a liar Sanku.

I don't intend to wallow in the mud with you.

Cheers!
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Gilles »

amit wrote: Suffice to say I made no comment about short runway take off and landing by C17. We don't even know if that is one criteria desperately wanted by the IAF. They have lived with the Il76 for a long time and as far as I know it does not have that capability.
Because you have selective blindness. Or maybe you are colour blind and can't see the colour red.
Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal P V Naik told India Strategic that the aircraft had been chosen after a thorough study of its capability to take off and land on short runways with heavy loads, longrange, and ease of operation.
This one from Air Marshal Ashok K Goel (Retd.)
As for the aircraft, the IL 76 has served India well. It added a new dimension to air power in the Indian subcontinent and boosted the reach of the Indian Air Force. IAF deployed the aircraft within three to six months of their induction, and landed it at a short runway of 5500 feet in northern airfields while the manufacturers asked for a minimum runway length of 7500 feet.
Last edited by Gilles on 17 Jun 2010 16:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Sanku »

Ouch Gilles ouch.....
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by amit »

Gilles wrote:
Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal P V Naik told India Strategic that the aircraft had been chosen after a thorough study of its capability to take off and land on short runways with heavy loads, longrange, and ease of operation.
So Gilles,

Let me ask you something. Do you think ACM was lying when he said this? Or do you, like Sanku, think that this report is bakwash because it is not in "direct quotes"?

If you don't think he's lying or that the report misrepresented what he said then the question of C17 ability or lack thereof does not arise. And if you think he's lying or that the report is wrong, then you have no business parading that as a piece of evidence do you?

And also let me ask you, for my knowledge since you're the expert, does a short but paved runway=ACR?

Please also note my quote once more:
We don't even know if that is one criteria desperately wanted by the IAF.
Desperately wanted means - for your comprehension - is this ability or the lack of it a deal maker or breaker.

Please ponder a bit before rushing into post, eh?
Last edited by amit on 17 Jun 2010 16:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Gilles »

amit wrote: So Gilles,

Let me ask you something. Do you think ACM was lying when he said this? Or do you, like Sanku, think that this report is bakwash because it is not in "direct quotes"?

And also let me ask you, for my knowledge since you're the expert, does a short but paved runway=ACR?

Please also note my quote once more:
We don't even know if that is one criteria desperately wanted by the IAF.
Desperately wanted meaning is this ability or the lack of it a deal maker or breaker.

Please ponder a bit before rushing into post, eh?
Sidestepping the issue at hand, as usual, and going off on a tangent.........

I won't take the bait this time.

You have the same method as GeorgeWelch and Surya. Did you all take the same class?
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by amit »

Gilles,

I think you didn't see the addition to my post.

Here it is again:
If you don't think he's lying or that the report misrepresented what he said then the question of C17 ability or lack thereof does not arise. And if you think he's lying or that the report is wrong, then you have no business parading that as a piece of evidence do you?
Now I'd like to see if you sidestep this point.
:)
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Gilles »

amit wrote:Gilles,

I think you didn't see the addition to my post.

Here it is again:
If you don't think he's lying or that the report misrepresented what he said then the question of C17 ability or lack thereof does not arise. And if you think he's lying or that the report is wrong, then you have no business parading that as a piece of evidence do you?
Now I'd like to see if you sidestep this point.
:)
I DO NOT think he is lying.
I DO NOT think the report misrepresented what he said.

He said he wants the C-17 because Boeing and the US Air Force, and every Press report which mention the C-17 all CLAIM that it can land in short runways with heavy loads.

But lets come back to you sidestepping mine a couple posts above, please. Or I will add you next to SURYA on my ignore list.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by amit »

Gilles wrote:I DO NOT think he is lying.
I DO NOT think the report misrepresented what he said.

He want the C-17 because Boeing and the US Air Force, and every Press report which mention the C-17 all CLAIM that it can land in short runways with heavy loads.
So you want us to believe the Chief of Air Staff of the IAF says something like this:
the aircraft had been chosen after a thorough study of its capability to take off and land on short runways with heavy loads, longrange, and ease of operation.
Based on Boeing press release(s) and what Boeing and the USAF says?????? :eek: :eek:

Seesh Man! You must be smoking something potent, can I have too?
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Gilles »

amit wrote:
Gilles wrote:I DO NOT think he is lying.
I DO NOT think the report misrepresented what he said.

He want the C-17 because Boeing and the US Air Force, and every Press report which mention the C-17 all CLAIM that it can land in short runways with heavy loads.
So you want us to believe the Chief of Air Staff of the IAF says something like this:
the aircraft had been chosen after a thorough study of its capability to take off and land on short runways with heavy loads, longrange, and ease of operation.
Based on Boeing press release(s) and what Boeing and the USAF says?????? :eek: :eek:

Seesh Man! You must be smoking something potent, can I have too?
I wrote BOEING, the supplier and manufacturer (and the official data it provides with the aircraft, including published landing and take-off charts), not Boeing Press releases.

You are on my ignore list as of now. I warned you.
Last edited by Gilles on 17 Jun 2010 18:11, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by amit »

Gilles wrote:You are my my ignore list as of now. I warned you.

:lol: :rotfl: :lol: :rotfl: :lol:

What can I say?
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by amit »

Gilles wrote: I wrote BOEING, the supplier and manufacturer, not Boeing Press releases.
OK not releases but Press reports. My Bad.

I'm sure that materially alters what I wrote. :)
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Sanku »

Gilles, two things have happened here, IAF has been "told" to buy C 17, by the political masters (Indian systems are slightly different from Canada, Indian forces cant get equipment without a fair amount of civil-political oversight) now it would have been told that for a certain set of reasons which we dont know about but can speculate on based on informed information as well as the article from AM A K Goel. However in Indian context no IAF chief would talk about a potential buy in anything but generic operational reasons, he would especially not talk about a purchase before PNC has happened it is very irregular. If there was a direct quote it would be

"IAF would be interested in acquiring heavy lift aircraft with the characteristics as blah blah blah... and hence C 17 is a potential candidate which we will evaluate for our purposes"

No ACM is going to go out and make a stronger statement, the media will have a field day with him.

Now ANY reasons can be easily said by a magazine which is NOT answerable to public, after all For ANY aircraft that would get selected, the above quote can be applied with some degree of truth, because after all, without specifics, (what does short mean, with how much load etc) that description would fit pretty much any plane.

So the statement essentially is a harmless placeholder introduced by the magazine -- but attributed to C 17 because they know we know we are going to buy it anyway (for different reasons)

Also you are right in the sense that it can not be anything more than claims by Boeing because IAF has yet not tested it, at best demos by Americans, so it can not be that the it has been thoroughly studied. Not possible. Other wise the tests are a sham. No IAF chief is going to get caught in such a basic blooper.

So in short
1) Yes it is a claim by boeing
2) Yes its been relayed by a magazine sympathetic to Boeing
3) It is unlikely to be from IAF chief.
4) The real reasons are quiet different.

And you are right, a clear Arms lobby push is seen here with fawning articles on C 17 in media about how great C 17 is and how bad the rest of the world is.

We will also note that none of those mentioned above will have ANY remote attribution, (direct quotes, exerpets from reports) by any GoI official.

So we are seeing a beautiful dance by Boeing through the media to prepare the Indian taxpayer for a decision which was already taken at some other level than IAF/MoD Bureaucrats; but keeping the official machinery carefully out of glare since the uncomfortable questions which would get asked can be easily skirted over.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Gilles »

For the record, let me repeat.

1) Landing an empty aircraft in under 3500 feet in New Delhi is not the same as landing an aircraft loaded with 160,000 pounds of cargo on a 3,500 foot runway. A few days ago, I posted a video of an An-124 landing in 4000 feet on Paine field (the home of the main Boeing plant in Seattle). It was probably empty. They would never have risked landing it on an actual 4000 foot RUNWAY.

2) Tests have demonstrated that the C-17 uses much more runway when the surface is wet than when it is dry. That is true of all aircraft, but in the case of the C-17 it is significantly higher.

From this document
Current guidance indicates that the minimum size semi-prepared runway for C-17 operations is 4,100 feet long by 90 feet wide (AFCESA/CES, 97). This includes the 3,500 foot landing surface and two 300 foot overruns on each end of the runway. Given current procedures, a 4,100 foot runway would only be of use during dry runway conditions since planned stopping distance increases greatly under wet conditions when using an RCR of 4 as discussed previously. The Engineering Technical Letter, which provides guidance to civil engineers indicates that C-17s require a 7,000 foot runway during wet runway operations (AFCESA/CES, 1998). Obviously the requirement for an SBA could arise in any type of climate and weather and the ability to find 4,100 feet of useable surface is easier to find than 7,000 feet.
3) The aircraft has a high footprint that exceeds the capabilities of 99.9% of unpaved runways in the world (which is not the case of the IL-76 which was made to use the existing unpaved runways that are long enough)

I already posted this information but read again what this November 2009 GAO Report to the Subcommittee on Air and Land Forces, Committee on Armed Services, House of Representatives tells us:
However, there is a potential gap in the tactical airlift of medium weight loads beyond the capability of the C-130s. The C-17 is the only aircraft capable of moving this type of Army equipment within a theater of operation, although not to austere, short, or unimproved landing areas.
A potential capability gap exists in the department’s ability to airlift medium-weight vehicles to access-challenged areas within a theater of operations using dedicated tactical airlifters. C-17 aircraft have been employed to transport medium weight vehicles in theater, but cannot access austere, short, or unimproved landing areas. In 2007 C-17s flew 15,436 tactical sorties, 3,102 of which—approximately 20 percent—involved carrying objects too large for a C-130 to carry. Nevertheless, DOD officials do not consider the C-17 to be a viable long-term solution given access issues noted above. JFTL is expected to provide this long-term solution.
They are still pondering what form the JFTL will take. It might just turn out to be the Airbus A-400M.
Last edited by Gilles on 17 Jun 2010 20:40, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Tanaji »

^^

It is interesting that you appear so scandalized about the way C17 single vendor purchase is being done. Let me repeat, there is absolutely no difference between this purchase and the T90 purchase. Both are being done by flouting basic tendering norms,allowing for no competition and a single vendor situation. Both contracts deliver a product that is too expensive. At least the C17 does good technically (except for the length of the runway required) unlike the T90 which is substandard to boot. And no, taking refuge under the lame excuse that situation changed in 2002 (when in fact prior to that there was more flexibility and ad-hocism - your words!) doesnt cut it.

It is interesting you would support the T90 deal so staunchly, and oppose this one. Fraud is fraud...
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Indranil »

It seems to me that now this discussion is going in circles. Some people believe what IAF says. some people are skeptical and nobody wants to change. May I take this opportunity to change the discussion a bit.

The C-17s are good planes. People don't seem to differ much on that. For whatever it is worth, how much do you think India should be paying for 10 of these with a 30 year support plan?!!
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Sanku »

Tanaji wrote:^^

It is interesting that you appear so scandalized about the way C17 single vendor purchase is being done. Let me repeat, there is absolutely no difference between this purchase and the T90 purchase..
Tanaji, at least you think that this is a fraud, but for some reason want to bring in T 90s.

Well you may or may not like it, but the DPP calling for multi vendor with explicit rules was framed only in 2002.

We can only judge a fraud or lack of it by the context the decision was made in.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Sanku »

indranilroy wrote:It seems to me that now this discussion is going in circles. Some people believe what IAF says. some people are skeptical and nobody wants to change. May I take this opportunity to change the discussion a bit.
Indranil, no one disagree with what IAF has to say, expect that it has not formally said anything so far. Even in informal statements no one disagrees with IAF.

The only problem is that the real issue has nothing to do with IAF either really speaking, it is elsewhere.

Finally, the debate is because some people are for some reason trying to make completely wrong claim, and they do it repeatedly. That keeps the debate alive otherwise there is nothing to say.

About the pricing, if you get yourself in a monopoly, you pay what the seller asks you to pay, there is no fair price per se. A fair price exists only in a situation where create competition.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Kanson »

Gilles wrote:
2) Tests have demonstrated that the C-17 uses much more runway when the surface is wet than when it is dry. That is true of all aircraft, but in the case of the C-17 it is significantly higher.
Sir in which way you are saying it is higher. You are comparing to the C-17 performance against ?....you mean all the airfract ?
3) The aircraft has a high footprint that exceeds the capabilities of 99.9% of unpaved runways in the world (which is not the case of the IL-76 which was made to use the existing unpaved runways that are long enough)

I already posted this information but read again what this November 2009 GAO Report to the Subcommittee on Air and Land Forces, Committee on Armed Services, House of Representatives tells us:
However, there is a potential gap in the tactical airlift of medium weight loads beyond the capability of the C-130s. The C-17 is the only aircraft capable of moving this type of Army equipment within a theater of operation, although not to austere, short, or unimproved landing areas.
A potential capability gap exists in the department’s ability to airlift medium-weight vehicles to access-challenged areas within a theater of operations using dedicated tactical airlifters. C-17 aircraft have been employed to transport medium weight vehicles in theater, but cannot access austere, short, or unimproved landing areas. In 2007 C-17s flew 15,436 tactical sorties, 3,102 of which—approximately 20 percent—involved carrying objects too large for a C-130 to carry. Nevertheless, DOD officials do not consider the C-17 to be a viable long-term solution given access issues noted above. JFTL is expected to provide this long-term solution.
They are still pondering what form the JFTL will take. It might just turn out to be the Airbus A-400M.
Before going on discussing this.. one should know what they mean by short, austere or unimproved landing areas....AFAIK, C-17 can land on unpaved runways and not unimproved sites. So one must start defining what is unpaved and unimproved.

What GAO tries to call as 'austere, short' is the one less than 3000 meters. The only aircraft in the USAF than can land on austere field is C-27J as per the linked document. and what was the minimum runway length recommended for this....again from the document...2000 ft ( Page 35) C-130H/J-30 requires 3000 ft as minimum runway length; they are not considered for landing in 'austere' type field and for C-17 minimum is 3500 feet.

And what are the technical solution being looked for the JFTL.... as per the document.."large tiltrotor, vertical takeoff and landing aircraft, and a versatile fixed wing, short takeoff and landing aircraft, respectively". Pls note fixed wing design is being considered last only. Just to indicate the complexity and requirement being looked for landing a Stryker type vehicle. And obviously C-17 cannot fit in this role. So saying C-17 cannot do this is as good as beating a lame duck.

I still looking forward to see any credible document which says C-17 cannot land in those 3500 feet and accepts Boeing was wrong in the calculation.

To my understanding 300 feet overrun on either side of 3500 feet runway is for the pilot error in landing the craft within the recommended 150 feet limit of the runway. And length of the aircraft is around 150 feet.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Indranil »

Sanku wrote:
About the pricing, if you get yourself in a monopoly, you pay what the seller asks you to pay, there is no fair price per se. A fair price exists only in a situation where create competition.
Rightly so sir. What I am asking is what price would have a been a deal for India! It is like you go to buy a car. But the first car you see is a great value for money. so you don't need to look beyond.

2.2 B, 2.3 B, 2.4 B .... 5.8 B! Obviously I would expect some reasoning behind it as well !
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Sanku »

indranilroy wrote:
Sanku wrote:
About the pricing, if you get yourself in a monopoly, you pay what the seller asks you to pay, there is no fair price per se. A fair price exists only in a situation where create competition.
Rightly so sir. What I am asking is what price would have a been a deal for India! It is like you go to buy a car. But the first car you see is a great value for money. so you don't need to look beyond.
But that is not a correct analogy my friend. We are not buying a car.

Totally different.
2.2 B, 2.3 B, 2.4 B .... 5.8 B! Obviously I would expect some reasoning behind it as well !
Frankly I think the price is dictated by the seller in C 17 model (US makes Munna's buy).

There is no logic to it. To the US maybe there is logic, but I cant find one.

That is precisely why A K Antony's speech on broad based specs and multi vendor acquisition needs to be read.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Indranil »

Sanku sir. Today morning I was thinking of the proposition that you said about HAL going with some collaboration to create a C-17 equivalent. I still stand by my thought that HAL can't come up with something within the next several years. It has to first gain the experience with MTA, RTA-70/90/110. I don't know whether they would even have the resources free to design such a plane. So I still don't see it as an alternative to the C-17

But yes! HAL/ADA/NAL has to get there fast. We can't compete with the Chinese by keeping on importing while they produce these planes in house! . They are almost at the verge of flying theirs and we are not even planning on any! So yes sir, I agree with you that we should atleast start thinking NOW.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Indranil »

Sanku wrote: ....
I am asking a simple question, amn't I? What do you (I mean any poster) think is a fair price for 10 C-17s and the 30 year contract!

I didn't ask whose prerogative, who dictates etc. etc. they all lie in the rhetoric. I asked a simple question!

Just a simple answer with a quote and the reasons behind that quote is a good post in IMVVVHO.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Gilles »

Kanson wrote: Sir in which way you are saying it is higher. You are comparing to the C-17 performance against ?....you mean all the airfract ?
I compared the dry and wet landing distance of several commercial jets whose data I had access to. The difference between dry and wet distance is in the 10 to 20 per cent range.

C-17 seems to be more in the 75% per cent range.
Kanson wrote:
Before going on discussing this.. one should know what they mean by short, austere or unimproved landing areas....AFAIK, C-17 can land on unpaved runways and not unimproved sites. So one must start defining what is unpaved and unimproved.

What GAO tries to call as 'austere, short' is the one less than 3000 meters (I assume that was a typo and you meant "feet"). The only aircraft in the USAF than can land on austere field is C-27J as per the linked document. and what was the minimum runway length recommended for this....again from the document...2000 ft ( Page 35) C-130H/J-30 requires 3000 ft as minimum runway length; they are not considered for landing in 'austere' type field and for C-17 minimum is 3500 feet.

And what are the technical solution being looked for the JFTL.... as per the document.."large tiltrotor, vertical takeoff and landing aircraft, and a versatile fixed wing, short takeoff and landing aircraft, respectively". Pls note fixed wing design is being considered last only. Just to indicate the complexity and requirement being looked for landing a Stryker type vehicle. And obviously C-17 cannot fit in this role. So saying C-17 cannot do this is as good as beating a lame duck.

I still looking forward to see any credible document which says C-17 cannot land in those 3500 feet and accepts Boeing was wrong in the calculation.

To my understanding 300 feet overrun on either side of 3500 feet runway is for the pilot error in landing the craft within the recommended 150 feet limit of the runway. And length of the aircraft is around 150 feet.
Sir, in aviation there is no such thing as overruns on either end of the runway. There is sometimes a stop-way meant to accommodate aircraft in the case of an aborted take-off but its not used for landing aircraft. As for the under-run, the part before the landing threshold, that never exists. This is a concept invented by the C-17 people to make people believe that the C-17, which was originally designed to operate from 3000 foot runways and which missed that target, could now operate from 3500 foot runways. It missed that target too. So they invented the 3500 foot runway with 300 (edited later) foot "overurns" (on either end to maintain a semblance of attaining the 3500 foot target. The author of the report was correct to call a duck a duck when he called that runway a "4100" foot runway, which is what it is.

As for what kind of runways the C-17 was intended for, just click on this link please and read any of the numerous links that will appear.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&rlz=1 ... =&gs_rfai=
Last edited by Gilles on 18 Jun 2010 07:47, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Sanku »

indranilroy wrote:Sanku sir. Today morning I was thinking of the proposition that you said about HAL going with some collaboration to create a C-17 equivalent. I still stand by my thought that HAL can't come up with something within the next several years.
Indranil Sir, you will recall, that the involvement of HAL was primarily "a foot in the door" type of exercise, this would be completely unlike MTA where the a/c will be co designed and co developed. Here the idea is to buy the rights of design, ip etc, and may be hire a few designers on loan.

HAL would pretty much be the management group. It can outsource everything else.

The idea is to buy a IP of plane which can be used for further derivative designs.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Sanku »

indranilroy wrote:
Sanku wrote: ....
I am asking a simple question, amn't I? What do you (I mean any poster) think is a fair price for 10 C-17s and the 30 year contract!
There is no fair price.

The price I think the deal would make sense would be if the prices per aircraft + 30 year contract would be something like 100 Million + 100 Million.

The logic behind this number is to take roughly 40-50 Million for a Il 76, double it (per tonne load + fudge factor for US shiny ness) US is asking for roughly the same figure for purchase and maintence so I have kept them same.

Note the 40-50 million figure itself is on the higher side from the current estimates of Il 76.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Indranil »

Sanku wrote:
indranilroy wrote:Sanku sir. Today morning I was thinking of the proposition that you said about HAL going with some collaboration to create a C-17 equivalent. I still stand by my thought that HAL can't come up with something within the next several years.
Indranil Sir, you will recall, that the involvement of HAL was primarily "a foot in the door" type of exercise, this would be completely unlike MTA where the a/c will be co designed and co developed. Here the idea is to buy the rights of design, ip etc, and may be hire a few designers on loan.

HAL would pretty much be the management group. It can outsource everything else.

The idea is to buy a IP of plane which can be used for further derivative designs.
I don't have a single grey hair, so please don't call me sir :).

I do not know what you mean by buying the IP of a plane. Why would somebody sell a IP which it would have developed in years. Needless to say that it would be prohibitively expensive. Generally the break-even point for the development cost of such IP for just a model is when scores of such models are sold. Besides these are national capabilities which countries don't generally let go. Therefore you would hardly come across any such precedent for such a trade.

Besides IP would not be know-how. It is much more critical to know what all works and what all doesn't to design the next plane. That wouldn't come with the IP. Hence there is no shortcut to getting this know-how other than designing and building planes oneself. Very much the route taken on MTA, RTA! A few engineers and designers are not going to solve the huge backlog we have! HAL just being a manager will not give it any design abilities of its own in the future! Or am I missing something!
Last edited by Indranil on 18 Jun 2010 01:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Indranil »

Sanku wrote:
indranilroy wrote: I am asking a simple question, amn't I? What do you (I mean any poster) think is a fair price for 10 C-17s and the 30 year contract!
There is no fair price.

The price I think the deal would make sense would be if the prices per aircraft + 30 year contract would be something like 100 Million + 100 Million.

The logic behind this number is to take roughly 40-50 Million for a Il 76, double it (per tonne load + fudge factor for US shiny ness) US is asking for roughly the same figure for purchase and maintence so I have kept them same.

Note the 40-50 million figure itself is on the higher side from the current estimates of Il 76.
So you are saying 2 B for the 10 aircrafts, right?

Though I can answer this with information from the top of my head. Please let me get back on this after a little research.

P.S. We can haggle here as much as we want over the new 76's prices, only time will tell what they would cost in the future. If you ask me, I would take that 50 million per plane for future IL-76s with a pinch of salt. Yes I did read all the links Gilles had posted. But "capitalistic" Russia in recent years seems work differently. We have first hand experience over numerous platforms. So lets wait and watch.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Sanku »

Russia very recently was willing to sell Ils to China for under 30 million a pop.
I do not know what you mean by buying the IP of a plane.
I actually did say.

Design + manufacturing data + right of use and modification in future, added consultancy. At least for the airframe, if not avionics and engines.

Examples are China buying the Israel design after they were forced to stop working on it by USA.

An and Ils have lovely birds in their stable, but which may not be made if they dont get orders, those IPs could be considered.

In fact China pretty much did the same with Su 27 too during the brief period of madness during the melt down in 90s.

Things are not that bad in Russia but they still have designs they can sell us rather than see us buy C 17s.
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