Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 2010

[RajeshA]

shiv ji and Rudradev ji,

There indeed exists an intersection of your ideas. There does exist a constituency in Pakistan, which is influential and which has (more or less) never attacked India and does not (more or less) bear grudge against India, does not (more or less) support Kashmir's 'Azadi' actively.

That constituency is of course the Salafist constituency - Al Qaida and Associates, TTP, etc. In 1971, the constituency hardly existed. The ones who have rained terror in India have all been TSPA or their sarkari jehadis - LeT and the like. Both RAPE and the Deobandis are knee deep in hate towards India. The Salafists in Pakistan are the children of Jihad against Soviet Union, Israel and West.

UAE has bought some living space for itself in the midst of Al Qaida threats. I haven't heard of bombs going off in Dubai or Abu Dhabi or Sharjah or even Qatar or Bahrain. So for the sake of argument it is possible to make deals with AlQ.

Let's facilitate the Al Qaida types in Pakistan to put pressure on the TSPA. After all, TSPA has delivered many of their colleagues to the custody of USA. There is no love lost there. Whenever there is some risk that LeT would try to hit India, one can give AlQ and Friends a supari for the likes of Hafiz Saeed, and he gets hit for not being pious enough. There are many things India can offer AlQ that Pakistan can't. Mulayam Singh Yadav can offer just as good hospitality and gosht as anybody in Quetta.

If our friend USA can make love to our enemy and arm them to fight US enemies, then so can we. We too can give a hug to America's enemies, so that they burn the musharrafs of our enemies. It is just business.

Of course, RAPE would have to be whispered some soothing words too, as their near and dear get taken to shamshan ghat.

[Abhijit]

Ah!! desperate attempts of clinging on to the past achievements.Indians including ones here on BRF know in hearts of their heart that india has lost its edge to fight pakistan after later acquiring nukes.So its better to sing peace tune rather than being a jingo.

Hard as it may seem to swallow, there is an element of truth in what this guy says. When the usual BR jingos say it - there is some iritation but no protest. When this guy pipes up and says the same thing everyone comes down on him like a ton of bricks.

May I (with apologies) point out a piskological burkha that we on BRF are fond of hiding behind? We find a scapegoat for India's weakenss. We like to say "Oh if it was not for xyz, India would have been strong"

Currently the cause of India's weakness is MMS/Sonia/UPA. Every little fact that reveals India's weakness to us is covered up in a Pakiesque manner by saying "If only MMS was not weak or subsrvient to Italian madam and US interests"

There is yet another tendency on BRF that I believe is going to necessitate our "waking up and smelling the coffee" ourselves. India does not have the military strength to occupy Pakistan, and even if it did it would be a bad idea to get stuck in the Paki quagmire. Theer wil be Pakistanis who hate India until the youngest BRF member is an old man on his deathbed and beyond. And here will be Pakis who are poking fun at India and Indians and demanding things for a long long time to come. All these are victories for Pakistan. And the US is still standing by that Pakistan

The only way forward for India is to cut our losses. Why get upset if some newbie says it? Cognitive dissonance?

Shiv saar, I don't think anybody in his/her right mind would dream of occupying pakiland. defeat - yes (been there done that, will do again), occupy - no. But there is a via media between war and peace. What is happening currently is that one side has declared a proxy war while the other side (us) refuses to acknowledge that it is in the midst of war. This is a unilateral war, where we are at the receiving end. If we reach a conclusion that due to various reasons (such as 3 1/2 friends of pakis, nukes, our own economy etc.) a military defeat of the evil side is not possible, we should at least call a spade a spade - pakiland is evil - it is built on an evil ideology and there is no point of return possible for pakis. Let;s have a cold war or cold peace but for God's sake, let us not delude ourselves and our next generation that there is anything worth making peace in that cesspool.

[KLNMurthy]

The flaw in the above argument is failing to identify which constituency in Pakistan is being solicited for "peace" by making concessions.

There is no problem here. India has many excuses for not making peace with Pakistan. with your statement being just one of them. And that is why we have this constant conflict which we may not lose but we will not win, while we are unable to check the US or China.

Constiuencies have to be built over time. The US and China have built their constituencies in Pakistan. The US has even lost part of its constituency. I believe we should be grabbing what the US has lost and others. As long as we are unable to face the idea that we have to eat humble pie and create a pro-India constituency out of Pakistanis and worry that they will ask for more and more - all that we will see is more of same.

What India wants is nothing more or less than a cessation of attacks from Pakistan. The problem with "demanding" anything out of Pakistan is that we have no leverage--no pain that we are inflicting that will go away, no rewards that they want which we can withhold (since we are starting off the "negotiations" with granting rewards). The logic with which we are colluding is, if attacking India produces a certain amount of rewards, then doubling the attack will produce double the reward.

To build a constituency as you say, we have to create at least some kind of defector culture like the old USA; but that would mean presenting an ideological alternative that would be attractive to the Paki would-be defectors. We don't even have an understanding of what our ideological position is; even here we have posters like ajit_tr (who may or may not be a burkha-dhari paki, but that is actually irrelevant) who see Bangladesh '71 as equal-equal with Paki machinations over Khalistan etc. Except on a few venues like BRF, most Indian elites do think like ajit_tr, which is morally bankrupt thinking.

Shiv, even if we were to take your idea no. 3 seriously, it can't be pursued in the absence of ideological clarity and assertiveness by us. That means building a constituency in India first, before we can even dream of a constituency in Pakiland. Even the finest RAPEs today believe J&K is a case of colonial oppression by India. There is no foundation for building a constituency of India-friendly pukes.

It is all right to swallow pride, take a risk etc., but it has to be something that is thought through and calculated, and there should be prerequisites in place. Otherwise it is just the same as tying a "madi" (sanctified) cloth at the border and imagining that it will keep the marauders out.

You are right in that most ideas of conclusively defeating pureland are just wet dreams; however we don't need to defeat them, just hold them off indefinitely, administering slaps "as needed." We are already doing the first part, just need to add the second bit. That should be sum total of our aims and strategy with that country.

Let us not swallow the nonsense that peace is with pureland is the one thing that stands between us and superpowerdom as so many of our ruling elite seem to do. We know perfectly well that there are hugely suboptimal systems within India that have nothing to do with pureland, and impose a much bigger cost & risk than anything pureland can throw at us.

[KLNMurthy]

No, the problem is our failure to create such a constituency despite 63 years of making concessions. Even following 1971, we made concessions at Simla hoping to create a constituency. The constituency went home, laughed in our face, told Pakistanis to eat grass while nuclear weapons were developed, and eventually got hanged.

In 1999 Vajpayee tried to make concessions and create a constituency. He got Kargil instead. He invited Musharraf to Delhi, again hoping to build a constituency. He got the Agra debacle. It was only when the Vajpayee government mobilized in 2002, that relative peace returned in some measure to J&K... as seen in the figures for terrorism-related deaths in the state before and after Parakram. Only the threat of a war could bring relative peace with Pakistan.

A few years ago Manmohan Singh tried to barter away Indian sovereignty over J&K, again in hopes of building a constituency. A few years later the dictator he was trying to placate is history. The foreign minister of that dictator, KM Kasuri, makes forlorn statements about how close we had come to an "understanding on Kashmir." Now they have another dictator who is distancing himself from any hint of such an understanding with the previous dictator... and adding "water" to Pakistan's list of demands.

So what should we offer this one in order to make him a constituency that can (and will) guarantee us peace in exchange?

Is it my imagination or have the quality / quantity of terrorist attacks on India declined in correlation with the volume of breast-beating in Pakiland about Indian involvement in terrorism inside Pakiland via Afghanistan & Balochistan? I am wondering if even a paranoid suspicion of Indian retaliation in kind might have been enough to put the brakes on attacks on India.

[RajeshA]

The only constituency available to India is the most pious of the pious in Pakistan, who do not have India in their world view.

[A_Gupta]

Worth a look at the sectarian hatred within Pakistan. If you can't understand the youtube Urdu, at least read the comments:
http://criticalppp.org/lubp/archives/13220

PS: the mullahs should take credit for the invention of flame-wars long before USENET or the internet.

[shiv]

There indeed exists an intersection of your ideas. There does exist a constituency in Pakistan, which is influential and which has (more or less) never attacked India and does not (more or less) bear grudge against India, does not (more or less) support Kashmir's 'Azadi' actively.

That constituency is of course the Salafist constituency - Al Qaida and Associates, TTP, etc. In 1971, the constituency hardly existed. The ones who have rained terror in India have all been TSPA or their sarkari jehadis - LeT and the like. Both RAPE and the Deobandis are knee deep in hate towards India. The Salafists in Pakistan are the children of Jihad against Soviet Union, Israel and West.

UAE has bought some living space for itself in the midst of Al Qaida threats. I haven't heard of bombs going off in Dubai or Abu Dhabi or Sharjah or even Qatar or Bahrain. So for the sake of argument it is possible to make deals with AlQ.

Let's facilitate the Al Qaida types in Pakistan to put pressure on the TSPA. After all, TSPA has delivered many of their colleagues to the custody of USA. There is no love lost there. Whenever there is some risk that LeT would try to hit India, one can give AlQ and Friends a supari for the likes of Hafiz Saeed, and he gets hit for not being pious enough. There are many things India can offer AlQ that Pakistan can't. Mulayam Singh Yadav can offer just as good hospitality and gosht as anybody in Quetta.

If our friend USA can make love to our enemy and arm them to fight US enemies, then so can we. We too can give a hug to America's enemies, so that they burn the musharrafs of our enemies. It is just business.

Of course, RAPE would have to be whispered some soothing words too, as their near and dear get taken to shamshan ghat.

Aha!! Well said. That is pretty much in consonance with my thoughts - but expressed much better

[ajit_tr]

'India's global power aspirations a far fetched idea'

KARACHI: Although India is being considered a rising economic giant and a major political player in the region, analysts believe there is not a remote chance that the nuclear-armed country can become a global power to match US might.

With India making waves in the international community through its rapid economic growth and thaw in relations with arch-foe China, the South Asian country is being keenly watched by international affairs experts.

Pakistani observers say India may be a major power in Asia, but it certainly doesn't have the potential and resources to dethrone US as the sole global power.

Former federal minister and writer Javed Jabbar outright rejected the idea, claiming that at the moment India neither has resources nor other ingredients that could make it a global power at par with America.

[abhishek_sharma]

US dismisses reports of offering mediation between India, Pak

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 063251.cms

[SSridhar]

What is happening currently is that one side has declared a proxy war while the other side (us) refuses to acknowledge that it is in the midst of war.

Abhijit, we do acknowledge that we are in the midst of a war, but we have no clue as to how to retaliate and we are bogged down both by cluelessness and extreme timidity.

[Pranav]

Interesting article

Why Pakistan's Ahmadi community is officially detested

When a Pakistani Muslim applies for a passport or national ID card, they are asked to sign an oath that no Muslim anywhere in the world is asked to sign.

The oath goes like this: "I consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad an impostor prophet. And also consider his followers, whether belonging to the Lahori or Qadiani group, to be non-Muslims."

I would recommend guys to read the article. Pretty well written and explains the plight of Ahmedi folks as well as social engineering amongst pakis the whole more pure vs less pure paradigm

Another excerpt:

One day I saw some bearded activists standing outside a clothes merchant's shop in our town, chanting anti-Ahmadi slogans and turning customers away, telling them that buying clothes from Ahmadis was haram - forbidden.

At the time I was learning to memorise the Koran from a very kind, mild-mannered teacher.

I asked him what exactly was wrong with the Ahmadis.

He explained to me that they didn't believe that the Prophet Muhammad was the last and the final messenger.

I said OK, maybe that makes them kafirs, infidels, but who says that kafirs can't sell cloth?

My teacher's response was a full-handed slap, so sudden, so unexpected that it rang in my ears for days to come.

That same year Pakistan's first elected parliament declared Ahmadis non-Muslims.

Gotta watch out for these "kind, mild-mannered" Koran teachers.

[rohiths]

Ten men in uniform are reported to have embraced Shahadat during shoot-out with the miscreants though the official circles were finding it hard to confirm the martyrdom of the soldiers.

http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=36835

[derkonig]

Abhijit, we do acknowledge that we are in the midst of a war, but we have no clue as to how to retaliate and we are bogged down both by cluelessness and extreme timidity.

Then why the pappi jhappi? Truth is that we refuse to see that war that the Pakis & their ancestors have been waging on this land for the last 1000 years.

[ajit_tr]

I've gone through all the comments and raving and ranting in response to my post.I've one question to all brfites here do you guys have any plan wrt to pakistan????

I'm asking above question coz in various threads related to pakistan i've gone through;for every solution suggested to solve pakistan problem there are more counter arguments suggested by brfites against it.some for example...
1.India can nuke and erase the pakistan from world map.
counter argument:India cant do it coz indians are not barbaric.sanathan dharma dont teach us blah blah....

2.India can go occupy pure land....
counter argument:india cant do it coz its difficult to handle 170 million barbarians.

3.India can attack pakistan and balkanize it.
counter argument:Ah we cant do it coz of 3.5 friends of pakistan
.
.
.
etc etc.

The thing is BRFites here are as much confused wrt to pakistan as GOI and what to speak of common indians.So why blame GOI/MMS/sonia when same confusion prevails all over india.Brfites have to come to reality that india cant solve pakistan problem and pakistan will be there till india is there.

We used to listen to our grandma story about the demon whose life was in parrot.So prince had to kill the parrot to destroy the demon.

According to BRF Pakistan is that demon and its life is in parrot called india.......rest is self
explanatory....

@Aditya_V ...Whats wrong if i'm from land of pure or not from land of pure.Afterall Brf too aclaim
consider land of pure as its land and india has to get it back....

Food for thought :Anil,Ajit komal,rani meera etc are common names used among residents of land of pure.....

[vijayk]

'India's global power aspirations a far fetched idea'

KARACHI: Although India is being considered a rising economic giant and a major political player in the region, analysts believe there is not a remote chance that the nuclear-armed country can become a global power to match US might.

With India making waves in the international community through its rapid economic growth and thaw in relations with arch-foe China, the South Asian country is being keenly watched by international affairs experts.

Pakistani observers say India may be a major power in Asia, but it certainly doesn't have the potential and resources to dethrone US as the sole global power.

Former federal minister and writer Javed Jabbar outright rejected the idea, claiming that at the moment India neither has resources nor other ingredients that could make it a global power at par with America.

Gen Moin said India had hegemonic designs through its involvement in Afghanistan as it wanted to have a partner to tackle Pakistan from another side.



“India has been involved in so-called development projects. They are building schools, hospitals, roads…things which a common man can see. This is to gain sympathies of the Afghans. Once the Americans leave, India would want the Afghans to ask them to send its army for security purpose. And it will be certainly to deal with Pakistan from another front.”



Shedding light on Indo-Afghanistan relations, Ms Uzma Shujaat of ASCE said the neighbouring country had been involved in several “development projects” to serve its national interest, especially 218-kilometre Delaram-Zaranj road for movement of goods.



“This strategic road built by India will certainly have a negative impact on Pakistan as it will give Afghanistan access to sea from Iran's side. Since 2001 India has a different kind of relationship with Afghanistan,” she said.

[ajit_tr]

How American and Cold war warriors helped in corrupting "Jihad"
Jihad actually stands for a positive struggle and may also include an armed component. Although just like everything, it has also been misused by opportunists.The current usage of Jihad evokes apprehension and negative connotations because of what it has been invoked for in the past 30 years in particular. how post 70s and 80s extremists and religious nationalists were funded and trained by the US and west and other cold war players like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. It was mainly because of these actions that a major source of so called "Jihadis" have become so prominent. Without the training of western agencies including Mossad in FATA and Afghanistan, these disparate groups of extremists and religious nationalists would have no where near the chaos making ability they have today.

From U.S., the ABC's of Jihad

Saturday, March 23, 2002; Page A01

In the twilight of the Cold War, the United States spent millions of dollars to supply Afghan schoolchildren with textbooks filled with violent images and militant Islamic teachings, part of covert attempts to spur resistance to the Soviet occupation.

The primers, which were filled with talk of jihad and featured drawings of guns, bullets, soldiers and mines, have served since then as the Afghan school system's core curriculum. Even the Taliban used the American-produced books, though the radical movement scratched out human faces in keeping with its strict fundamentalist code.

As Afghan schools reopen today, the United States is back in the business of providing schoolbooks. But now it is wrestling with the unintended consequences of its successful strategy of stirring Islamic fervor to fight communism. What seemed like a good idea in the context of the Cold War is being criticized by humanitarian workers as a crude tool that steeped a generation in violence.

Dated article but quite relevant to present.

[Aditya_V]

@Aditya_V ...Whats wrong if i'm from land of pure or not from land of pure.Afterall Brf too aclaim
consider land of pure as its land and india has to get it back....

No a few may but most of us do not consider Pakistan as part of Indian territory.

1.India can nuke and erase the pakistan from world map.
counter argument:India cant do it coz indians are not barbaric.sanathan dharma dont teach us blah blah....

When did anyone suggest that here?

Brfites have to come to reality that india cant solve pakistan problem and pakistan will be there till india is there.

Just because the problem is not solvable today doesn't mean it can never be solved and truth is nobody is BR belives a bunch of armchair Internet warriors can solve the problem all alone. India will get to solve this problem one day.

And why can't we air our views on an internet forum, how do these open ideas harm anyone?

[rkirankr]

Shiv wrote
1) India gifts all of India to Pakistan and agrees to allow Kiyani to raise a Pakistani flag on re fort
2) India gifts Kashmir to Pakistan
3) India keeps India along with Kashmir but demands trade and economic exchanges between the two countries with a view to long term reconciliation

Shiv ji,

Any option for peace between two warring parties should have an idea in which both parties gain some, lose/compromise some and maintain H&D.
Option 1 and 2 is ruled out for India. For the Pakis the option 3 is not an option at all. It questions the legitimacy of Pakis. A muslim majority region next to Pakis and belonging to India is what hurts them most,because their Idea of homeland for subcontinent muslims is challenged here.Option 3 to Pakis is like Option 1 and 2 to India. So no common ground and back to fighting.
Option 2 would make Pakis happy but it would seriously put to stress the integrity of India so ruled out .

Option 1 is very much less possible than the Indian tanks in Pindi scenario. I think even in Pak only Zaid hamid types would think it is possible

Since Indian tanks cannot be in Pindi, the only option is to keep hitting at the faultlines in Paki without getting caught and at the same time talk peace. Extend concessions now and then like trade etc and keep tearing them apart. JMT

[arun]

X Posted from the IWT thread.

The press of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan reports that the US has consented to Pakistan’s request to be roped in to act as a mediator in the dispute manufactured by Pakistan against India on the matter of water:

US to mediate in Pak-India water row

Friday, June 18, 2010
By Khalid Mustafa

ISLAMABAD: Washington has extended assurance to take up Islamabad’s concerns on water issues with New Delhi. Secretary Ministry of Water and Power Shahid Rafi revealed this on Thursday while talking to a select group of mediapersons after the Pak-US strategic dialogue on water and power issues.

However, Ms Maria Otero, Undersecretary for Democracy and Global Affairs at the Department of State on the occasion hesitantly confirmed that US had agreed to mediate between the two nuclear states in this regard, but strictly being within the framework of Indus Water Treaty of 1960. However, in the two-day meeting, water issues with India have not been discussed as the said issues were discussed at higher level.

This is the first meeting of the Water Working Group of the US-Pakistan Strategic Dialogue as the group plans to meet again in six months. .........................

The News

PTI via TOI is reporting that the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s attempt to insinuate the US into the dispute manufactured by Pakistan against India on the matter of water has been spurned by the US:

US dismisses reports of offering mediation between India, Pak

PTI, Jun 18, 2010, 02.31pm IST

ISLAMABAD: The US on Friday described as "completely inaccurate" media reports that it had offered to mediate between India and Pakistan to resolve their differences over the sharing of river waters. ..........................

US embassy spokesman Rick Snelsire described the media reports as "completely inaccurate".

He told PTI: "The issue didn't even come up during the meeting of the Water Working Group."

"The consistent position of the US has been that there is a treaty in place and it has a mechanism to address disputes between India and Pakistan. The US will encourage both parties to use the mechanism in the treaty," he said.

Snelsire said that during a media interaction, Under-Secretary Otero too had pointed to the Indus Waters Treaty and the existing mechanism to resolve disputes without making any offer of US mediation.

Othero was asked about Pakistan's differences with India over the sharing of river waters during an interview with a TV news channel, and she replied: "Clearly we believe that is something that Pakistan and India have to do together and resolve together. Where the US comes in is in helping Pakistan, how it manages its water internally because there is a great deal of work that could be done." ..........................

PTI via TOI

[shiv]

one question to all brfites here do you guys have any plan wrt to pakistan????

We can talk about:

What does Pakistan want?

What can India give?

What does India want?

What can Pakistan give?

Even with India doing nothing Pakistan could have been expected to go down shit creek. But only the US is holding it up. Do you guys recall the time Pakistan's FE reserves were USD 12 bn sometime before 9-11. They should have collapsed in a month. And guess what Nearly 10 years and 40 bn USD worth of aid later Pakistan's FE reserves were at 16 bn last week.

Pakistan is not going anywhere in a hurry, but it has no incentive to stop terrorism against India. But India has one chance and that is to spoil the US's game by scaring the Paki army. The hope is that the US will pressure Pakistan into reducing terrorism.

The US is admitting that it cannot support Pakistan's economy and make it shine. The one country that can make a difference to the Pakistan economy is India. India has no incentive to help unless terrorism stops. Pakistan has not shown any inclination to stop terrorism. The US will have to keep supporting the Paki economy forever.

How can India make it costlier for the US?
By threatening Pakistan

How can the US stop India?
By asking India to be non threatening and friendly. India can demand a quid pro quo from the US to pressurise Pakistan to stop terrorism.

In other words we do not have a two player game here. At the very least it is a three player game.

[shiv]

Dated article but quite relevant to present.

A well known article. It is also one of the refs I have used in my ebook.

[shiv]

The press of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan reports that the US has consented to Pakistan’s request to be roped in to act as a mediator in the dispute manufactured by Pakistan against India on the matter of water:

The US can do nothing. But the US can get itself into trouble with Pakistan for trying - and they know that.

If the US agrees, Pakistan will cheer and say "US will solve the problem for us". When the US fails they will crticize the US and demand compensation for making false promises.

[RajeshA]

I've gone through all the comments and raving and ranting in response to my post.I've one question to all brfites here do you guys have any plan wrt to pakistan????

I'm asking above question coz in various threads related to pakistan i've gone through;for every solution suggested to solve pakistan problem there are more counter arguments suggested by brfites against it.some for example...
1.India can nuke and erase the pakistan from world map.
counter argument:India cant do it coz indians are not barbaric.sanathan dharma dont teach us blah blah....

2.India can go occupy pure land....
counter argument:india cant do it coz its difficult to handle 170 million barbarians.

3.India can attack pakistan and balkanize it.
counter argument:Ah we cant do it coz of 3.5 friends of pakistan
.
.
.
etc etc.

ajit_tr ji,

I too read BRF and I don't believe that these suggestions and corresponding compulsions are necessarily coming from BRF.

BRF is very well aware of India's limitations.

1) is considered as a form of retaliation to a nuclear strike.

2) is advocated only from one single BRFite, whose thinking encompasses whole kaals, and whose perspective is difficult for narrow-minded like you and me to grasp fully.

3) The 3 and half friends only pose a limited obstacle as the whole arena is not under their control.

The thing is BRFites here are as much confused wrt to pakistan as GOI and what to speak of common indians.So why blame GOI/MMS/sonia when same confusion prevails all over india.Brfites have to come to reality that india cant solve pakistan problem and pakistan will be there till india is there.

There are some creative solutions on BRF. You need to look further. In fact, Pakistan itself is throwing up so many solutions and seems to be in competition with the imagination of the BRFites. That is where, the whole confusion amongst the BRFites arise: Some think that Pakistan is an autophagous monster, that it will stew in its own juices. Others are impatient and would like India to lend a hand. I personally wish Pakistan, 'Bon Appetit'.

We used to listen to our grandma story about the demon whose life was in parrot.So prince had to kill the parrot to destroy the demon.

According to BRF Pakistan is that demon and its life is in parrot called india.......rest is self
explanatory....

I wonder if your grandma would approve of the liberties you have taken with her story.

@Aditya_V ...Whats wrong if i'm from land of pure or not from land of pure.Afterall Brf too aclaim
consider land of pure as its land and india has to get it back....

Food for thought :Anil,Ajit komal,rani meera etc are common names used among residents of land of pure.....

Obviously the purification is still unfinished business.

[Pranav]

No, the problem is our failure to create such a constituency despite 63 years of making concessions. Even following 1971, we made concessions at Simla hoping to create a constituency. The constituency went home, laughed in our face, told Pakistanis to eat grass while nuclear weapons were developed, and eventually got hanged.
......
So what should we offer this one in order to make him a constituency that can (and will) guarantee us peace in exchange?

Until Paks are gripped by Islamism, it is difficult for any sense to penetrate their skulls. But Islamism is more fragile than it appears.

To cultivate a constituency, one needs ideological validity (or at least plausibility) + monetary or career rewards. Look at the way the Thapars, Arundhatis have been cultivated by the west ... these are the people who are now in our corridors of power. This is a process that takes decades, generations.

[A_Gupta]

India is like a person with an incurable though not fatal disease, like arthritis. All that can be had is temporary relief of the symptoms; the other times one has to live with the pain. It is neither strength nor weakness; it is not a moral defect to have a disease like this, it simply IS. You can't really blame anyone. One has to learn to live with the limitations it imposes. The Indian disease is Pakistan.

PS: The first radical surgery, that makes life sustainable even if not all that pleasant was partition. In the absence of a cure, we're going to the faith healers. Even if you destroy Pakistan the problem will not go away, it will just manifest itself in some other way. The root problem is the state of mind and beliefs and politics of 170 million people - the inner Pakistani that will remain no matter what happens externally. Either they have to be scattered to the four winds, or they have to change. And remember the story when the Buddha encountered a bunch of nasty villagers, he wished to the puzzlement of his disciples that their village would remain intact. As he explained it was so that they would not migrate and spread the nastiness to every where else.

[satyam]

The Indian disease is it is following the path of Gandhi rather than Bhagwad Gita.

To deal with terrorist become terrorist.

[shiv]

The only way you can get 170 million people to express their viewpoint is not via the media - it is only via elections.

The media represent a very small group and our impressions are formed from those Pakis whose voices reach the media.

Poverty,food prices, unemployment and corruption are major issues in Pakistan which Pakis would like to solve but the media rarely pay attention. So there is actually a huge constituency in Pakistan whose priorities need not be jihad no matter how much they hate India. They have to fill their stomachs first. The US has found it easy to control the country by paying off a few at the top.

But tapping a large constituency that has the least power in Pakistan will not be easy. Reaching that constituency has to come by making the empowered pakis irrelevant . The Pakis in power are relevant because they serve the US and the US helps them in their eternal battle against India. This in fact is why the poorer Pakistan have got worse. Neithet the empower Pakis nor the US are bothered about them.

Why the hell should India be bothered by a huge mass of poor fcued up Pakis? Well, the question was, what constituency is there in Pakistan for us to address.

[SSridhar]

Surgical interventions like Total Knee & Hip replacements have found a cure for the incapacitating arthritic pain. Completely & effectively.

[Brad Goodman]

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... -2,00.html

Ah!! desperate attempts of clinging on to the past achievements.Indians including ones here on BRF know in hearts of their heart that india has lost its edge to fight pakistan after later acquiring nukes.So its better to sing peace tune rather than being a jingo.[/quote]

Ajit ji, I disagree in we losing edge with pakis aquiring nukes theory a little. Yes now the cost has gone up for India and this is the fear that pakis are exploiting to the hilt. They feel they can fool around and India will cave into their empty threats for nuke war since India will lose more than them in terms of economy and prosperity. What we need to sensitize pakis is that Japan which is 1/100 in size of India took 2 bombs on their relatively industrialized cities in WW2 and still within less than a decade was the star of Asia. So yes nukes can devastate a huge part of city as well as cause mass deaths but we have the stomach to take these blows and pay back with more than what you can take. We dont need 100 bums to take on pakis take of Islamabad, Karachi Lahore & throw a spare at Rawalpindi and job is done RAPES gone yahoos scared and pakis never recover again. Throw in few hundred thousand AK's to balochs and pathans and pakis will send each other to their 72's

[A_Gupta]

Newer surgical techniques like Total Knee & Hip replacements have found a cure for the incapacitating arthritic pain. Completely & effectively.

Ah, but is it arthritis that India has, or some other disorder, say like psoriasis?

[A_Gupta]

The Indian disease is it is following the path of Gandhi rather than Bhagwad Gita.

To deal with terrorist become terrorist.

How easily we could have been a subcontinent of this! Not sure whom to thank that we are not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DShud_iyX9s

[shiv]

Ajit ji, I disagree in we losing edge with pakis aquiring nukes theory a little. Yes now the cost has gone up for India and this is the fear that pakis are exploiting to the hilt. They feel they can fool around and India will cave into their empty threats for nuke war since India will lose more than them in terms of economy and prosperity. What we need to sensitize pakis is that Japan which is 1/100 in size of India took 2 bombs on their relatively industrialized cities in WW2 and still within less than a decade was the star of Asia. So yes nukes can devastate a huge part of city as well as cause mass deaths but we have the stomach to take these blows and pay back with more than what you can take. We dont need 100 bums to take on pakis take of Islamabad, Karachi Lahore & throw a spare at Rawalpindi and job is done RAPES gone yahoos scared and pakis never recover again. Throw in few hundred thousand AK's to balochs and pathans and pakis will send each other to their 72's

BG - Pakistan has just gone start raving mad. They are, IMO well and truly up shit creek and more and more of them are figuring that out.

We have discussed all the things we can do to them realistically and if we are desperate, but what we have never talked about is what we need to do if terrorism tails of and stops and Pakistan stops depending on war and violence in its dealing with India.

I have myself predicted (as others have done) that Pakistan will drop entirely below India's radar if that happens. But that shhould not be end of story. We then need to see how we can utilize Pakis to "take care" of at least 2 of the 3 and a half.

[satyam]

The Indian disease is it is following the path of Gandhi rather than Bhagwad Gita.

To deal with terrorist become terrorist.

How easily we could have been a subcontinent of this! Not sure whom to thank that we are not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DShud_iyX9s

I am not saying that entire nation should become terrorist. Like their rogue intelligence agency, our intelligence agency should start covert war. For every terrorist attack, answer should be terrorist attack.

[SSridhar]

From Such Gup - TFT

Smoking the peace pipe

It was reported in the press that The Man of Steel’s Talented Bro met Gill on the Hill with his three sons recently. The meeting was about Gill’s brother’s by-election in a Multan constituency and the violence that attended it. We hear Gill’s sons who were campaigning for their uncle, were menaced by gun-toting activists of a banned sectarian outfit, with which the Punjab La Min is in bed. The boys were petrified and it was the timely intervention of their guards that dispersed the fanatics. Gill complained to Talented Bro, whereupon Bro decided to smoke the peace pipe with the family.

[SSridhar]

From Nuggets - TFT

We will get Spain back!

Writing in Jinnah chief editor Jinnah stated that while visiting Masjid Qartaba in Spain with a group of journalists as Prime Minister Gilani visited Brussels, he noted that the Masjid had been deprived of its Muslim character. But Islam was spreading and the Muslims will be back in Spain soon to reclaim it. His feelings were shared by other journalists like Zahid Malik, Muhammad Malik and Saleh Zaafar, etc. They also considered treating the churches in Pakistan the same way.

Shahrukh Khan in Madrid

Chief Editor Jinnah wrote that while he and a group of Pakistani top journalists were in Madrid they saw that a cinema hall had long queues of people trying to buy tickets. They discovered that it was an Indian film featuring Shahrukh Khan and Kajol. Shockingly the film was dubbed and there was a lot of accompanying literature being sold to acquaint people with the theme.

‘ANP doesn’t love Pakistan’

Ex-army chief Aslam Beg was quoted by daily Pakistan that those who demanded that the NWFP be renamed Pakhtunkhwa never loved Pakistan. The man who coined the name, Abdul Ghaffar Khan did not express commitment to Pakistan and the character of his son Wali Khan too was not hidden from anyone. Beg stated that it would be folly to start an operation against the Taliban in Punjab and that the US had got Pakistan to agree that the Taliban would be kept out of the Afghan coalition.

‘Ankhon mein ankhey dal kar’

After hearing chief minister Punjab Shehbaz Sharif saying that he would talk to India after ankhon mein ankhey dal kar (putting eyes in the eyes of) columnist Nazir Naji wrote an imaginative piece in Jang saying that India had chosen Reena Rai to look Shehbaz Sharif in the eye. After they had clasped together their eyes, an interesting dialogue had ensued.

[ajit_tr]

We can talk about:

What does Pakistan want?

What can India give?

What does India want?

What can Pakistan give?

Even with India doing nothing Pakistan could have been expected to go down shit creek. But only the US is holding it up. Do you guys recall the time Pakistan's FE reserves were USD 12 bn sometime before 9-11. They should have collapsed in a month. And guess what Nearly 10 years and 40 bn USD worth of aid later Pakistan's FE reserves were at 16 bn last week.

Pakistan is not going anywhere in a hurry, but it has no incentive to stop terrorism against India. But India has one chance and that is to spoil the US's game by scaring the Paki army. The hope is that the US will pressure Pakistan into reducing terrorism.

The US is admitting that it cannot support Pakistan's economy and make it shine. The one country that can make a difference to the Pakistan economy is India. India has no incentive to help unless terrorism stops. Pakistan has not shown any inclination to stop terrorism. The US will have to keep supporting the Paki economy forever.

How can India make it costlier for the US?
By threatening Pakistan

How can the US stop India?
By asking India to be non threatening and friendly. India can demand a quid pro quo from the US to pressurise Pakistan to stop terrorism.

In other words we do not have a two player game here. At the very least it is a three player game.

That's what the present govts of both countries are doing.Either you call it under USA pressure or you call it MMS road map to peaceful ties with pakistan...So why is so much rona-dhona here on every indo-pak peace talks.True Pakistan is paranoid about india but keeping in mind its past experience with india its paranoia with india is genuine be it severing pakistan in 1971 or supporting Northern Alliance in Afghanistan.As india is fearful of china pearl of string of pearls around it pakistan is too paranoid about india being in its backyard in afghanistan.So what can india do to solve this???India and pakistan can talk for eternity without any result untill talks were followed by concrete time-bound results/action on the actual ground. And its for india to decide if it wants to waste time and precious lives in endless talks or it wants peace by taking concrete action to that addresses to pakistani paranoia.

[satyam]

We can talk about:

What does Pakistan want?

What can India give?

What does India want?

What can Pakistan give?

Even with India doing nothing Pakistan could have been expected to go down shit creek. But only the US is holding it up. Do you guys recall the time Pakistan's FE reserves were USD 12 bn sometime before 9-11. They should have collapsed in a month. And guess what Nearly 10 years and 40 bn USD worth of aid later Pakistan's FE reserves were at 16 bn last week.

Pakistan is not going anywhere in a hurry, but it has no incentive to stop terrorism against India. But India has one chance and that is to spoil the US's game by scaring the Paki army. The hope is that the US will pressure Pakistan into reducing terrorism.

The US is admitting that it cannot support Pakistan's economy and make it shine. The one country that can make a difference to the Pakistan economy is India. India has no incentive to help unless terrorism stops. Pakistan has not shown any inclination to stop terrorism. The US will have to keep supporting the Paki economy forever.

How can India make it costlier for the US?
By threatening Pakistan

How can the US stop India?
By asking India to be non threatening and friendly. India can demand a quid pro quo from the US to pressurise Pakistan to stop terrorism.

In other words we do not have a two player game here. At the very least it is a three player game.

That's what the present govts of both countries are doing.Either you call it under USA pressure or you call it MMS road map to peaceful ties with pakistan...So why is so much rona-dhona here on every indo-pak peace talks.True Pakistan is paranoid about india but keeping in mind its past experience with india its paranoia with india is genuine be it severing pakistan in 1971 or supporting Northern Alliance in Afghanistan.As india is fearful of china pearl of string of pearls around it pakistan is too paranoid about india being in its backyard in afghanistan.So what can india do to solve this???India and pakistan can talk for eternity without any result untill talks were followed by concrete time-bound results/action on the actual ground. And its for india to decide if it wants to waste time and precious lives in endless talks or it wants peace by taking concrete action to that addresses to pakistani paranoia.

addresses to pakistani paranoia.

Allow them to hoist green flag on red fort. Their paranoia will be over.

[Jaspreet]

it wants peace by taking concrete action to that addresses to pakistani paranoia.

Why is it India's responsibility to address Pakistani paranoia?

As far as we are concerned, it is created by Paks to solve imaginary problems ("Kashmir belongs to Pak", "India is depriving Pak of water", etc.).

Isn't it Pak's own responsibility to grow up?

[ajit_tr]

ajit_tr (who may or may not be a burkha-dhari paki, but that is actually irrelevant) who see Bangladesh '71 as equal-equal with Paki machinations over Khalistan etc. Except on a few venues like BRF, most Indian elites do think like ajit_tr, which is morally bankrupt thinking.

The hyphen that will not go away

The abolition of the hyphen was first announced by Bush in 2005. Today, five years later, it is clear that news of its demise was greatly exaggerated. Whether anyone likes it or not, the hyphen is a stubborn reality. It is not part of the problem, it has to be a part of the solution. That applies not just to Afghanistan, it also holds true for nuclear disarmament issues. Any policy which refuses to recognise the reality of the hyphen will rest on shaky foundations.

[satyam]

ajit_tr (who may or may not be a burkha-dhari paki, but that is actually irrelevant) who see Bangladesh '71 as equal-equal with Paki machinations over Khalistan etc. Except on a few venues like BRF, most Indian elites do think like ajit_tr, which is morally bankrupt thinking.

The hyphen that will not go away

The abolition of the hyphen was first announced by Bush in 2005. Today, five years later, it is clear that news of its demise was greatly exaggerated. Whether anyone likes it or not, the hyphen is a stubborn reality. It is not part of the problem, it has to be a part of the solution. That applies not just to Afghanistan, it also holds true for nuclear disarmament issues. Any policy which refuses to recognise the reality of the hyphen will rest on shaky foundations.

Yeah exactly. More Paki propaganda please.

Hyphen has gone. India's tourism earning is more than entire Pakistan's export.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... a/98473/on