Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 2010

[RajeshA]

India is like a person with an incurable though not fatal disease, like arthritis. All that can be had is temporary relief of the symptoms; the other times one has to live with the pain. It is neither strength nor weakness; it is not a moral defect to have a disease like this, it simply IS. You can't really blame anyone. One has to learn to live with the limitations it imposes. The Indian disease is Pakistan.

If Indian disease is Pakistan, then that disease is curable by itself. The factors which stop the disease from cure is the support for Pakistan by US and China. These factors can be neutralized, but for that India would need to get her hands dirty, and the people in power are not willing to go so far.

[A_Gupta]

So there is actually a huge constituency in Pakistan whose priorities need not be jihad no matter how much they hate India. They have to fill their stomachs first.

Shiv you are aware of this already, but I feel compelled to point out - yes, if the choice is between "roti, kapdaa aur makaan" versus "jihaad", this constituency will choose the former. It is the economy, stupid!

But there is a fundamental instability here. If there is a "roti, kapdaa aur makaan" political platform, the democratic competition will come up with "roti, kapdaa, makaan AUR jihad", and guess which will be more attractive to this constituency.

Unless it is manifestly evident that the second platform is unworkable, it will always win. And rejection of the second platform will come from pragmatism, not from any belief that it is a wrong platform. Therein lies the fallacy in the concept of the moderate Pakistani mango abdul.

Sure, Pakistan at peace with India for purely pragmatic reasons is better for India than the current situation. But it is not a stable situation; at some point when Pakistan feels strong enough, the jihad will resume, IMO. It is better for Pakistan to be hostile and weak rather than pragmatic and hence stronger and still hostile.

The only residual possibility is that during this period of pragmatism-driven peace, there is a fundamental change in the mango abdul. That is the slim hope we have to cling on to.

PS: notice the huge number of conditions that have to hold for success! That is why I termed Pakistan as a non-fatal but uncureable disease.

[SSridhar]

From Khaled Ahmed's article. 'How a Resolution Ruined Us' in this week's TFT.

The Munir Report (1957) thought that the Resolution deviated from the thinking of Jinnah, but General Zia threw out the copies of the Munir Report from state archives. (The writer of this article bought English and Urdu versions of the Report from the heaps gotten rid of by the state from the pavements of Anarkali Bazaar, Lahore.)

[Pranav]

But there is a fundamental instability here. If there is a "roti, kapdaa aur makaan" political platform, the democratic competition will come up with "roti, kapdaa, makaan AUR jihad", and guess which will be more attractive to this constituency.

Unless it is manifestly evident that the second platform is unworkable, it will always win. And rejection of the second platform will come from pragmatism, not from any belief that it is a wrong platform. Therein lies the fallacy in the concept of the moderate Pakistani mango abdul.

... But it is not a stable situation; at some point when Pakistan feels strong enough, the jihad will resume, IMO. It is better for Pakistan to be hostile and weak rather than pragmatic and hence stronger and still hostile.

Need to delegitimize Jihad ... it might take decades, but it is not impossible.

[Marut]

Well here's another dosa er... i mean a dossier from the yindoos.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... FElmRBfyTw

[sanjaykumar]

Need to delegitimize Jihad


Perhaps jihad needs to be acknowledged, accepted and faced with certitude of one's objectives?

[Kamboja]

More and more Shiv's thinking on the advantages of a Taliban takeover of Pakistan appeals to me.

Here is another item to add to the list of pros: having the Taliban take over Pakistan will truly give them room to do what they do best - reduce a country to a medieval nightmare. There is no way the Taliban, or any jihadi organization, can deliver on the fundamental issues facing the average Paki - i.e. food, water, electricity, jobs, social justice. And having once taken power and failed to deliver, their ideology will fail.

There are many reasons why jihadism is so popular in Pakiland right now - including conscious state policy to inculcate it and Saudi funding - but one of the reasons is certainly the promise (however illusory) of social justice that would come with 'sharia' and Islamic government.

On a certain level it's quite sad - the aam abdul's life is pretty crap right now. If he's not a feudal serf slaving away on one of the palatial estates of a Paki feudal, he's unemployed and living from hand to mouth in Kraachi or Lahore. His wife/sister/daughter has to sell herself (or is taken for free by the feudal lord) to support the family, and all around him is evidence of the obscene wealth of the corrupt, totally unIslamic elites.

No wonder he turns to jihadism as a panacea - sure, sharia law will ensure that his women are no longer playthings of the elite, that land reform will give him a small piece of the pie, that he will have a chance at life.

Yet nothing succeeds like success... and conversely, nothing fails like failure. All across the Arab world in the 30s right through to the 60s, communism was a popular ideology among the average people, yet when it failed spectacularly, it gradually lost its appeal, giving way to the promise of Islamism (which is also failing to deliver).

So a total Islamist takeover of Pakistan would finally give those wonderful jihadi nutjobs a chance to shine - take the stage, put your money where your mouth is and bring peace and prosperity to the land of the pure.

When they fail miserably to deliver on that promise, and bring ruin to Pakistan, perhaps the aam abdul will finally be disillusioned with sharia and jihad. But as long as the jihadis are revolutionaries, there will be a romantic and heroic tinge to their cause. It's only after they take power and have to actually deliver on their promises (implicit and explicit) that the average Paki will lose his jihad-tinted lenses and see the jihadis and sharia for what they are.

This means that, as Shiv is suggesting, India should actually encourage an Islamist takeover of Pakistan. Let them take power, let them fail miserably over years, even decades. And when they have finally discredited sharia as a basis for a modern country, then maybe we can deal with the disillusioned generation that grew up, not with the fantasy, but under the reality of sharia.

A final point in my rambling post - if there is a constituency that India should appeal to directly, it is the aam abdul who is struggling to make a living today. They are the ones more interested in pragmatic things like food or a job rather than the supposed aspirations of Kashmiris (or Palestinians or Chechnyans, for that matter). But getting past their current romance with sharia is a long-term project, IMHO -- a matter of decades.

[ajit_tr]

COMMENT: The ‘Great Game’ resumes —Zafar Hilaly

The trouble with the role we have chosen to play in Afghanistan is its inherently contradictory nature. An interested party cannot play the role of an honest broker. The conflict of interest is too glaring

Hamid Karzai has finally decided to break with the Northern Alliance partners and return to his Pashtun roots for deliverance from the Taliban and the Americans. This, one feels, is the reason behind his brusque sacking of his national intelligence chief and his interior minister, both belonging to the Northern Alliance.

Pakistan’s response was immediate, namely, to begin brokering deals between those elements of the Taliban who are friendly to us and the government in Kabul. Our sole condition for engaging in this thankless task — of which we claim we are past masters, although our record suggests otherwise — is the elimination of Indian influence. Any enemy of India, however antediluvian, cruel or vicious, is our friend and vice versa. That is the way it has been and that is how it will stay until India and Pakistan manage to inject a degree of sanity into the hatred their respective establishments harbour for each other.

So, once again, the Great Game has begun, or rather, the decades old ‘time out’ has ended. Needless to say, the Northern Alliance, India and Iran will not remain idle, and neither will Russia.

The defunct KGB, avowedly Putin’s first love, had long wanted to recover lost Soviet territories in spirit, if not in fact. And with the Americans preoccupied up to their gills in Afghanistan and Iraq, Russia has indeed made a remarkable comeback, so much so that Russian influence in the Central Asian Republics has never been more pronounced than today. Russia is often the arbiter in their incessant squabbling and even on domestic issues Russian support can often decide the outcome. Hence, with its clout in Central Asia restored, Russia can afford to return to participate in the Great Game.

Nor will India, like British India, let all the blood and treasure it has expended in Afghanistan go waste. A predicament in which Delhi would not have found itself had it resisted its instinct to step in and take advantage of any situation that can add to Pakistan’s discomfiture. As India manoeuvres to maintain its stake in Afghanistan’s future, its relations with Pakistan will commensurately worsen.

It is strange how puny players can alter the course of events by inveigling mighty ones to step in where angels fear to tread. In any case, India hardly needs any prodding. New Delhi is perpetually consumed by one idea and it is, invariably, the wrong one when it comes to Pakistan. That is not to say that our fixation with India is any less unhealthy.

As for the Americans, to them the intricacies of the Great Game are novel. Very shortly they will not understand what is going on in Afghanistan. To them it will be the “unspellables killing the unpronounceables”. Their goals are power, predominance, crush rivals, and subdue nature. They are eager, restless, and positive because they are superficial. They have their heart set on the means and seldom think of the end. Secretly they prefer a clear defeat to a messy stalemate because they know that they will not know how to deal with the latter. Iraq is a shining example.

The trouble with the role we have chosen to play in Afghanistan is its inherently contradictory nature. An interested party cannot play the role of an honest broker. The conflict of interest is too glaring. Moreover, the deeper we find ourselves enmeshed in the Afghan snake pit, the more likely we are to come off the worse for all our good intentions. That happened after the Soviet withdrawal. So much so that eventually the Taliban, whom we helped fund, train and lead, ended up telling us to stop interfering. Colonel Imam, for all the help that he rendered the Taliban, is now languishing in some grotto while his erstwhile pupils determine his fate.

What then is the alternative for Pakistan? Actually, a fairly simple one and, in the words of Benazir Bhutto: “To let the dust settle in Afghanistan where it will.” In other words, to let the Americans stew in their own mess till eventually they are driven out by American public opinion aided by murderous Taliban attacks. And, meanwhile, to cleanse our lands of the presence of those who use our territory to wage war on the US, India or anyone else. And, if this means that we will have to take on Haqqani and his ilk then to do so, because such is the contagion that they have spread stretching from the furthermost edge of FATA to Karachi, which eventually, as surely as night follows day, we will have to confront or else succumb. Currying support from murderous villains who pose as our well-wishers is delusory. It is a sign of weakness and not strength and casts doubt on our commitment to democracy and progressive Islam.

Pakistan must look to itself and not others for its security and well-being. The responsibility begins and ends with us. Befriending the likes of the Taliban and indulging their abhorrent mindset suggests that we have a low opinion of ourselves. Importuning the Americans does the same. And that is an impression that no self-respecting nation can afford.

[shiv]

But there is a fundamental instability here. If there is a "roti, kapdaa aur makaan" political platform, the democratic competition will come up with "roti, kapdaa, makaan AUR jihad", and guess which will be more attractive to this constituency.

Arun (or is your name Sadhna ) there can never be certainty in politics - domestic or international/geo politics.

I may be saying some things far too soon for them to be possible - obviously there is no guarantee that terrorism will taper off or even end. But even assuming that it ends, it is too risky to address Pakis with concessions that give them any roti until jihad is consuming them and really forcing their heads into the shit pot. For Pakistan - jihad has to exhaust itself before roti and kapda become priorities. Islam has to be made irrelevant and for that people have to get more than enough of it.

But the reason I am talking of new routes is that I see opportunities. It used to be a simple world. Muslims were all united and they had the backing of the west to fight the commies and assorted kafirs. Reality today is more complex. Jihad goes on and on, but kafir India is no closer to defeat and the US is now killing the faithful. For reasons I have stated earlier there is some consonance of interest between the US and India (because each has a finger in the other's backside). Islam has started purifying itself in Pakistan. It is still not pure enough. There has to be sustained Muslim killing Muslim for years - in the manner that Naipaul described in the aftermath of the Iran Iraq war.

A section of Pakistanis have to reach the stage where there is no hope for them other than reconciling with India. That is the only time when India can make offers. Until then it is about marking time. "marking time" can be done in various ways. One way is to have talks and making the Pakis think we will give something to them (after all these years). if they don't want to talk OK. To hell with them.

On the sidelines - I see China getting increasingly disconcerted. The loss of Pakistan as a credible force means all of India's military will be looking at China. So be it. But that is a different topic.

Incidentally there are certain places on the net where one can play a good cop bad cop routine with pure friends. It's good pisko fun. Know what i mean?

[ajit_tr]

Pakistan at war —Jan Assakzai

The militant infrastructure, regardless of the geo-political rationale for its existence, means Pakistan will continue to live under the spectre of a full-fledged war with India

The attacks on worship places of the Ahmedis merely underscored the fact that Pakistan is at war on many fronts, involving religious and ethnic minorities, governance issues, neighbouring countries and the world at large. Let us start with religious minorities.

The bigoted state and non-state actors launched a war against the Ahmedi minority in the 1950s. In the mid-1970s, they were declared non-Muslims. Their persecution continued over the coming decades and was eventually enshrined in the law. The Shia minority community has also been targeted in different parts of the country. The recent example can be seen in Quetta where militants are continuously killing the Hazara Shia minority members. There are many examples of prejudice, discrimination and violence against Christians. The treatment towards Hindus and Sikhs does not inspire confidence either.

[ajit_tr]

VIEW: War for freedom —Gulmina Bilal Ahmad

The allies and the Pakistan government have termed the military initiative as the war on terror. It is not. To my understanding, it is the war for freedom. Freedom of choice, of thought and movement

Self-concept is a strange phenomenon. It encompasses not only our religious, social and political beliefs but is also based on a lethal cocktail of fact and fiction. An individual might be self-delusional to the extent that s/he starts living the delusion. Paranoia, schizophrenia and other forms of mental illness are based on a self-concept that is not rooted in reality. If this is diagnosed as mental illness at an individual level, then what is it called at a collective, societal level?

[A_Gupta]

Need to delegitimize Jihad

Perhaps jihad needs to be acknowledged, accepted and faced with certitude of one's objectives?

Ahmedis have explicitly renounced jihad by the sword. This is one of their differences with the mainstream Muslims.

[ajit_tr]

The continual killing of physicians —Dr Mahjabeen Islam

There is something seriously wrong with a society that harasses those who stand for justice. If I protest the killing of Ahmedis, then I am labelled as one. And now watch me metamorphose into a Shia

What do you do with a nation that has been killing its physicians for the last 10 years? Not in the name of vigilantism and avenging malpractice or the egregious deaths of patients but for insane ideologies that fault a physician for being Shia. Or worse: Ahmedi.

The spectrum of consent is vast: on the one end are those who do not know or care and on the other those who actively orchestrate the targeted murders. And the government versus the people ping-pong continues. No photo-ops are sacrificed and the promises are nauseating in their emptiness.

[archan]

Yeah exactly. More Paki propaganda please.

I agree with satyam. It is one thing to put one's point forward and disagree on a given point of view, but it is another thing to show a "holier than thou" attitude on BRF. Every now and then we get a smartie here who comes and posts in the tone of "all you guys are clueless...". ajit_tr, you have been showing that sort of behavior lately. I ask you to tone it down and keep a learner's attitude instead of a judgmental one. If you do not do so, I will take action against you.

[ajit_tr]

SHO shot dead in Mastung

QUETTA: A station house officer (SHO) was gunned down and a passer-by injured in Mastung on Thursday, official sources said. City Police Station SHO Murad Sajidi was on a routine patrol when unidentified armed motorcyclists shot him at the Masjid Road near the City Police Station. As a result, he died..

Doctor and Rangers official shot dead in Karachi

By Faraz Khan

KARACHI: In the latest of target killing incidents in the provincial metropolis, a doctor and a Pakistan Rangers official were killed on Thursday, bringing the death toll of those murdered in target killings to 21.

According to details, armed suspects, riding a motorcycle

Two killed in separate incidents in Balochistan

QUETTA: Two people were killed and two others injured, including a woman, in three separate incidents in different parts of Balochistan on Thursday.

Two motorcyclists crashed into each other on the Aliabad Road in Ustah Muhammad area. As a result, a man identified as Younas died on the spot

[munna]

ajit_tr (who may or may not be a burkha-dhari paki, but that is actually irrelevant) who see Bangladesh '71 as equal-equal with Paki machinations over Khalistan etc. Except on a few venues like BRF, most Indian elites do think like ajit_tr, which is morally bankrupt thinking.

The hyphen that will not go away

The abolition of the hyphen was first announced by Bush in 2005. Today, five years later, it is clear that news of its demise was greatly exaggerated. Whether anyone likes it or not, the hyphen is a stubborn reality. It is not part of the problem, it has to be a part of the solution. That applies not just to Afghanistan, it also holds true for nuclear disarmament issues. Any policy which refuses to recognise the reality of the hyphen will rest on shaky foundations.

Well the article in the newspaper amounts to little more than Zaid Hamidesque mad ranting.

India has successfully delinked itself from Pakistan when it comes to economic growth, trade & development, diplomacy and long term strategic evolutionary path. Unlike the days of the yore when the west used to pontificate from the rooftops about India-Pak complex whereby anything hypothesized for Pee-land would hold true for India and vice versa. India has demonstrated a structural break in terms of economic growth that is largely endogenous and structurally transformed the saving-investment indicators as a percentage of GDP.

The only sector where this hyphenation continues is defense and security sector. This is one area where we have deliberately not focused upon since the 1980s and let the conventional capabilities of the our forces erode to be only marginally better than the pee-land ones and not significantly better. One of the reasons being that in 1990s we realized that spending the nation to ground (a la Soviet Union) just to spite your rival is not a very comfortable thing to do. A decision seemed to have been made to withstand greater attrition on the battlefields vis a vis stunting of national development. We capped our defense spending as a percentage of GDP and made any additional spending index linked to the GDP growth through 1990s and large parts of 2000s. The 1998 tests further engraved the security sector hyphenation.

The result of this deliberate policy of building up a potent civilian side of national capacity produced tremendous developments like
1) India has leapfrogged many spots in global sweepstakes of nominal GDP rankings
2) India has a surging industrial sector that is capable of churning out India specific product solutions even if there is no precedent for such a thing abroad i.e. Tata Nano
3) India is the "new guy" that is critical to almost all global deals be it climate change or developing new global financial infrastructure
4) Our vast sections of population have actually hope and possibility of better life in the near, medium and long term future

However despite all these positives on development side the following factors need to be addressed in the future to achieve a security sector dehyphenation

1) Rapid development of domestic military industrial complex even if it only churns out sub-standard fare that armchair warriors may hate. Why? Because one thing that our strategic community may have inferred from their experiences of 1965, 1971 and 1999 is that a lot of dirt is kicked in our faces because we do not have the material wherewithal to fight a war longer than a month even if we want to. Simply put our imported shiny stuff will be deprived of various critical items to help us be "large hearted" during negotiations . We suffer a material constraint in facing the adversary despite having the will to do so. This is a pointer to the jingos; we need to have our own weapon systems and ones which could be bred like rabbits. To put a very crude example if tomorrow all foreign car manufacturers embargo India and fold up their plants and leave, India will keep moving on the likes of Tata and Mahindra despite their products being of lower quality than Benzes of the world. Would it be so if Mig, Mirage or LM do so? Any domestic system even if inferior will make India an "autonomous" fighting machine and this aspect needs to be worked on unless we want our forces to be "defense" only forces.

2) Donation of systems from 3.5 friends. This is something that we cannot do much about but one way of making things costlier for the fools is to invest big time into asymmetrical fighting capabilities to neutralize the shiny stuff from Khan and Lizard. In short Shivji's idea has huge relevance when it comes to throwing a spanner in works of 3.5 friends. We do not need to face 100 F-16s by importing 400 MMRCA maybe we can use 200 of those and 10000 cheap expendable SAM that are low on tech but effective in numbers.

3) The terror network! This is one area where I lay a larger blame on our own doorstep. We need to reform governance and improve law and order systems to create a better citadel than the current one. At the same time we need to be proactive and formulate a strategy on "people of interest to Indian national security". Unless and until that happens we will offer confused and befuddled responses to all such acts of terror.

The current confusion and so called peacenik streak of the government is a direct function of our hyphenation in security. It’s an open secret now that our forces were not sanguine about taking on pee-landers in the aftermath 26/11 so quite frankly calling names to MMS is just not done. The hyphenation in security can be done away with in no time but for that our forces especially Army and Air Force will have to get off the high horse and start driving Tata Indica rather than VW Golf.

As a nation it is our choice to make whether we accept a given failure rate and under performance of our domestic technology that we can use in numbers or we accept the rock star performance of brochure claims of imported material. This ladies and gentlemen is the key between breaking free and being bonded forever....

[Anujan]

I think that ajit_tr has some valid points. After thinking about it, I have a 10 point plan to normalize relationships. My proposals might sound bold and I am sure it will rile up the members of the board, but I have been trying to look at the problem from their point of view and I have an approach:

1. First of all, cashmere issue is the root of all problems between India and Pakistan. The cashmere issue should be solved first. By "solution", I think that if cashmere people either decide to join India or if LOC is made permanent border, then the root of Indo-Pak problems will not be solved. Because that solution is not a face saving solution for Pakistan and Pakistan will never accept anything that does not preserve its honor and dignity.

2. So plebicite is dangerous. Status quo is dangerous. The best solution is to make borders irrelevant. While doing so, India as the "bigger brother" should be magnanimous and go beyond a just and fair solution.

3. When cashmere is solved this way, steps should be taken to ensure that Pakistan feels secure about its waters. The first step should be that Indians should stop all dam construction on the rivers. Since for 50 years or so, India was the upper riparian and custodian of water (which it stole willfully) a truth and reconciliation committee that transparently accounts for losses suffered by Pakistan due to water stealing by India should be set up and Pakistan should be compensated. As a measure of good will and to bridge "trust deficit", all dams in Indian territory and their catchment areas should be jointly administered and managed.

4. The second issue is that of Afghanistan and durrand line. All assistance to Afghanistan should be routed through Pakistan. We can set up an "Indo-Pak peace bank" under the direct control of the President of Pakistan (now Zardari) with top economists of Pakistan like Shaukat Aziz (and others, I am not too familiar with their economy) and deposit all the money for Afghan reconstruction in the bank. Pakistan can disburse it to needy projects thereby gaining influence in Afghanistan, earning goodwill and also making sure that India's intention is just humanitarian and not just to gain influence in Afghanistan.

5. To assure Pakistanis that Hindus of India dont have malafide intentions towards Muslims, we should start treating our own minorities, Dalits, Shudras, Tamils, Muslims, Christians & Sikhs better. All Armed forces special act should be repealed. Jurists from Pakistan should be invited to participate in a truth and reconciliation committee to inquire into the atrocities of over a million rapes committed on their women. (I know of several NGOs who maintain the lists)

6. India should recall all RAW agents posted in Pakistan indulging in conspiracies in Balochistan, Karachi, NWFP, FATA. RAW should stop cooperating with CIA & Mossad in anti-Pakistan activities and conspiracies.

7. India should recognize Pakistan's principled stand and near perfect non-proliferation record (over the past 5 years or so) and taking into account our own shady past nuclear and missile proliferation, appeal to the US for a nuclear deal with Pakistan.

8. India should make a pledge to not pursue weapons systems when equivalent weapons systems are not available for Pakistan, either by outright purchase or through weapons transfers from US or China. For example, India should stop constructing Arihanth.

9. It is time that Indians gracefully accepted that Pakistanis are better than us in some areas, like height and color (so Indian women fall for them like Sania) and also their strength and piety makes one Pakistan equal to many Indians in competitions, like cricket. We should stop disgraceful discrimination like not inviting them for IPL

10. Indians should stop trying to spoil the image of Pakistan by making false allegations about Pakistani terror attacks like the latest Kasab case, accusing Hafiz Saeed and instead look inwards. Our nationals who indulged in anti-Pakistani activities should be investigated with an open mind like (LK Advani conspiring to kill the Quaid).

I think these steps will be a good start.

[A_Gupta]

Shiv,

Sadhna has a website that is relevant to anyone interested in partition history.
http://sites.google.com/site/cabinetmissionplan/

If you look in chowk.com archives (but don't dive into that cesspool) you'll find that if there is anything that Pakistanis detest more than SDRE males, it is "uppity" SDRE females who don't "remain within their auqaad". There is a special hatred reserved for them. The insults hurled at them would make the most hardened sailor blush.

Thinking about it now, shiv, you missed an opportunity, now that your style of writing is known and recognizable; else you should have been posting as shivani.

[shiv]

For a given Indian viewpoint there is another Pakistani viewpoint. That is well known to us - and as most people on here know many of us have been following Pakistan on this very thread for 12-13 years. This thread is meant to post Pakistani viewpoints to elicit Indian responses.

But when a person comes on here and posts a Pakistani viewpoint and asks triumphantly "So what are all you Indians going to say/do about it" the act is one of flamebait. I believe ajit_tr has done that. Flamebait to BRFites on the Paki thread is as good as trolling.

The net is a huge place. There is a place for everyone on the internet. Even trolls. But BRF? Need to see..

[Paul]

No, the problem is our failure to create such a constituency despite 63 years of making concessions. Even following 1971, we made concessions at Simla hoping to create a constituency. The constituency went home, laughed in our face, told Pakistanis to eat grass while nuclear weapons were developed, and eventually got hanged.

The WKK consitituency will be a prime candidate.

Couple of years ago I had pointed out the effect of the "Gujral doctrine" as the first step in drawing down the curtain that is the radcliffe line and drawing Pakistan back into the Indian orbit. JS is onlee taking this line of thought to the net stage by offering paki RAPES and opportunity to salvage some of their H&D through his works.

I would say that while is true thatthe military option is curtailed to some extent by the offshore balancing act put up by the west, there are other options (non-official) that are being worked upon by Indian civil society (Indian raPES if you will) to ameliorate the 1947 setback.

[shiv]

Thinking about it now, shiv, you missed an opportunity, now that your style of writing is known and recognizable; else you should have been posting as shivani.

Heck you're giving me ideas. But if I ever did that you can be sure I will pretend to be someone who is desperate to have it off with a Paki and yet be a naive kafir saying un-PC things about Pakistan and the pure ones.

[CRamS]

I agree with satyam. It is one thing to put one's point forward and disagree on a given point of view, but it is another thing to show a "holier than thou" attitude on BRF. Every now and then we get a smartie here who comes and posts in the tone of "all you guys are clueless...". ajit_tr, you have been showing that sort of behavior lately. I ask you to tone it down and keep a learner's attitude instead of a judgmental one. If you do not do so, I will take action against you.

Indeed. There is word that aptly describes such bozos; its called "parvenu", look it up .

I have encountered many such parvenus here in US. SDREs who never ever cared or knew didly squat about TSP machinations in India or ever in their life; then US gives them upwards mobility, and they start looking down at India and fellow Indians with the newly acquired colonial privilage having rubbed shoulders with American elites. And when it comes to India & TSP issus, the ajit_tr pompous arrogance shows up; first of all, the "South Asia" lingo develops, and then the "I know all" holier than though balderdash about how to bring piss to the warring neighbors, aboiut how India and Paaakistaan must sit down and make love; the false equivalence between TSP terror and India's communal tensions etc. I mean parroting the crap the he/she just learnt in America about India & TSP and dissing people like us who know and spent time & effort educating ourselves about Pakijabis and what drives them visa vi us SDREs.

[A_Gupta]

great posts by munna, anujan!

if ajit_tr is the price of having these posts, it is acceptable

[Jaspreet]

Munna,
I have to disagree with your post in, of all places, the TSP thread, of showing why India is doing better.
The fact that you need to defend India to them is just a different way of hyphenation. India seeks no approval from them. They can continue to think of India what they feel like.

Sometime ago, someone pointed out that Pak's indicators are more similar to those of Congo. A better way would be to reinforce that rather than showing why India is better.

[sum]

I think that ajit_tr has some valid points. After thinking about it, I have a 10 point plan to normalize relationships. My proposals might sound bold and I am sure it will rile up the members of the board, but I have been trying to look at the problem from their point of view and I have an approach:

Great post, Anujan-saar.

Amazing that even some Indians still believe in the "Pak equal to India onlee" and "India should be kindhearted big brother" kind of crap...

[munna]

Munna,
I have to disagree with your post in, of all places, the TSP thread, of showing why India is doing better.
The fact that you need to defend India to them is just a different way of hyphenation. India seeks no approval from them. They can continue to think of India what they feel like.

Sometime ago, someone pointed out that Pak's indicators are more similar to those of Congo. A better way would be to reinforce that rather than showing why India is better.

Point taken and accepted! The only argument I tried to make was that while we achieved a clean demolition of South Asia bunkum in matters pertaining to nuts and bolts of nation building, we still need to go some distance to achieve that in matters of security and defense.

[Ameet]

Pakistan Madrassas Draw U.S. Students Despite Scrutiny

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... topstories

Mohammad Abdullah, a shy, skinny American in his early 20s with a wispy black beard and knitted white skullcap, is just a month from finishing an eight-year course in religious studies at a Karachi Islamic school, or madrasah. He plans another year of study before returning home to New York to teach Islam at a university or mosque, and the Pakistani American knows that he'll probably be taken for a terror threat. In fact, most of the 60 Americans studying at Karachi's Jamia Binoria (which historically has a higher enrollment of foreign students than other madrasahs in the city) declined to be interviewed, citing fears of being pegged by Homeland Security upon their return to the States.

In theory, however, the overseas students shouldn't really even be in Pakistan. In 2005, then President Pervez Musharraf ordered all foreigners studying at madrasahs, including dual citizens, to leave the country, and banned new students from arriving after claims that several of the London suicide bombers had spent short stints in the Islamic schools. However, the enrollment of foreign students was "insufficiently regulated," enabling many to remain.

[Brad Goodman]

Reading between what rudradev ji (sticks) is saying & shiv ji is recommending (carrots) I think the solution to paki problem is not a simple one line solution. I would use my training at Instrumentation engineer to say we need to apply both. The percentage of how much carrot and how much stick depends on lots of factors and needs constant feedback control loop and adjustment based on the results that show up.

Now lets get back to basics. We need to understand the basic stakeholders on both sides of borders and what interests they treasure. Starting with Pakis

1) TSPA:
Desire: Wants to corner resources disproportionate to their size as well as country's assets. Wants to rule pakis by proxy. corner lands as gift and undue advantage for fauji foundation.
Action: Keeps democracy at bay. Mullas are encouraged. Media is manupulated with Zaid Hamid, Jalebi Madam types to keep masses fed with anti India opium. Strikes deals with 3.5 for money & weapons with conditions not necessarily for betterment of mango abduls. In short cannot afford permenent peace with India since their reason for existence comes to end. So once Kashmir was slowing down came up with Water will come up with something else real or magined to keep the milk simmering.

2) Paki Politicians:
Desire: Rule mango abdul's like politicians all over the world. Loot pakis of money and stash it in swiss banks. Provide lip service to any cause that can get them some votes. So one day can sing war with India the other day peace with India (Nawaz lahore summit etc). Their only desire is to last 5 years (full term) in power and get re-elected if possible
Action: Most of them belong with zamindar class. Their main priority is to protect their land holdings as well as industrial assets. They have no interest in social reforms. Subservient to army since they want to preserve their 5 years of ruling. So will turn a blind eye to TSPA's Afghan strategic depth (which they have no clue what it means) or Kashmir. They are more like Yudhishtira of mahabharat war who does not tell a lie but does not tell the truth as well when ashwathama gets hit. They have better pulse of awam than the army so will talk about peace with India if that can corner votes also will support cross border commerce if that helps their pockets.

3) Paki elities AKA Rapes:
Desire: Ummat e muslima aka khilafat of all muslim states with pakis as leaders. Pakis strongly allied to US like in cold war days. Defeating superpowers and flying sabz hilali parcham over red fort. Convert every dhimmi to faithful gulp whiskey in secret and talk of pious shariah in open. Settle in US Europe and support jihad against infidels on forums and sometimes with money and logistics
Actions: They live in fantasy land. This is the biggest loyal supporter of TSPA. They are jinnah iqbal generation who will speak of islam one day and secularism the other day. They are poweful because of their money and connections in paki establishment but not numerically sufficient to really change much on ground. We see disproportionate number of RAPES on forum and TV and misunderstand that this is paki reality on ground.

4) Paki middle class:
Desire: Like all middle classes make money, educate children, settle abroad, fence sitting on jihad so enjoy when wind is in favor and defend islam as peaceful religion when the wind is not in favor. Wants to get visa to Queenland and Unkil lands. There are the people we mostly interact with in US & UK. Always chatting about cricket and sitting next to us at SRK movies or AR Rahman concerts or weekend buffets at Indian resturants. They want to defeat India and Kashmir but are wary of the cost their primary desire is to make money.
Actions: As mentioned are fence sitters opportunist's harmless to both pakis and indians because of one simple reason they are too tiny in numbers to swing opinion and not too much money to attract attention.

5) Mulla Class:
Desire: Wants to rule pakis like the ayatollas have managed in iran. Get more and more money from kingdoms in gulf and for that will push pakis more and more into the black hole of wahabism. Collabrate with military for handouts and limited power whenver they get a chance. Feed RAPES with khilafat fantasy, Help military with propoganda to pacify mango abdul's. To mango abduls they promoise shariat as answer to their problems. The only class they cannot co-opt with is the middle class
Action: make money as stated above from state and gulf countries. Provide cannon fodder for super powers, state machiney as well as free lancers. No ideological leaning all types of jeehaad are legitimate. Want to impose shariah to take over not just politicians but also the judiciary so that way they control 2 pillars of the state.

6) Poor Paki's AKA Mango Adul:
Desire: Primary desire is to some how jugaad daal roti and occasional beef for their over sized family. If possible get their sons some descent education and get their daughters married. Expect handouts from governemnt like subsidized rations or free electricity.
Actions: Cannot really afford to survive in this hyperinflated paki economy with no jobs no institutional support of any kind, no bright future. This class is conned by all the classes above they are the ones I call drug addicts who have been fed with opium herione of islam and shariat as panacea for all their problems. This is the class that provides the cannon fodder to TSPA to fulfil its strategic depth as well as death by thousand cuts fantasies.

Now we need to look at India's options

1) TSPA: Cannot do much. TSPA would lose its reason to exisit if conflict is india is ended. So there is absolutely no way they can allow any thing serious to progress.

2) Paki Politcians: They are serious sometimes based on peoples mood but are not powerful enough to take on army so no harm no good. They will follow the diktait from rawalpindi most of the times

3) RAPES: They have pathological hatered for India but they are pretty toothless except for barking on some forums they are not really a concern. They provide backing to TSPA along with Mullas. But except for providing some pennies to jehadees they wont do anything else. You will have few exceptions like Sehzad or Headley who can cause substantial damage but the real player behind the scene is TSPA once caught they lose their zeal pretty quickly and can implicate their fathers if that would give them lesser sentence . No point in talking to them

4) Middle class: Again too small to talk to not much can change here. WKK papiya jhapiya are all that can be done with them.

5) Mullas: They want power as much as politicians they also depend on TSPA for existence. Mango Abdul is scared of their shariah and antics so votes are hard to come by. Plus so grass root level party structure to translate support into votes. So Abdul ayesha might like them but will vote for PML N or PPP bacause they have a shalwar kameez and sack of wheat in election.Dont know how fanatical are they to put chaand tara on red fort they are more interested in cleaning up ahmedia and shia at the moment then they want qazi courts so that they get the power they seek. Too many Mullas so do not have central figure to speak to . They all undercut each other right now focussed on internal issues


6) Mango Abdul: This is the category we need to target. Propoganda needs to launched to talk to mangoes to tell them its TSPA not India that steals your water its TSPA's corruption that makes your aata daal and fertilizers expensive etc. If you cannot do that you need to make this class pay for TSPA sins. If mango man's price becomes steeper for all the gazi acts of TSPA they will put pressure on TSPA example if TSPA does a 26/11 and India stops their water then next time mango man will not let TSPA do anything like this. Or say we stop cheap medicines being exported or cotton export then mango man will realize that it costs to be an enemy of India.

[Kamboja]

A question for the gurus on leverage with Pakistan:

Is there a way that India can convince China to stop supporting Pakistan?

Without Chinese assistance Pakistan would be forced to gravitate further towards the US, but that would benefit us because it exacerbates the internal contradictions in Pakistan -- US wants more drone attacks, more done on Taliban, etc. etc. and Pakis must comply, but if they do then they piss off their own jihadis, sections of TSPA and general public. So a split with taller than/deeper than friends would be massively beneficial for India.

However, it's a hard sell given -
(a) how much China has already invested in Pakistan - writing all those billions off as a sunk investment would not make them happy
(b) how effective Pakistan has been as a foil and distraction to India

Nevertheless, I see glimmers of potential trouble between China and Pakistan that could be exploited. Take for instance the Uighurs in Xinjiang: they're Muslims, they're being oppressed. Given the Paki penchant for taking up the causes of all oppressed Muslims* (exceptions include Bangladeshis, Balochis, and Kashmiris in POK/NA) the Chinese suppression of Uighurs has potential to rile up the pious in pureland (as I recall there were some pious idiots expressing such thoughts at the time on the Paki forums, although they were shouted down by the fervent China-lovers).

In theory, there is no reason for the Pakis not to despise the Chinese as just as kufr as Indians (and even more godless). This is one of the biggest contradictions in Pakistan (which is saying a lot), that they claim 'inherent differences' with India - different religion, language, ethnicity, approach to life, etc. etc. - as a reason that they must gravitate away from India and towards C. and W. Asia; in the next breath they turn to the Chinese, who are far more distant culturally than Indians. If aam abdul in Pakiland could be made to connect China = kuffar, could that serve as the beginnings of a wedge to prise the rentboy and his taller-than customer apart?

[Prem]

"We attended an Islamic religious convention, and the speaker said if you marry a non-Muslim or rape a non-Muslim girl, you will get 70 virgins in heaven"
Why didn't anyone at that Islamic religious convention stand up and say, "No! Islam is a Religion of Peace™! We revere the Christians as People of the Book!"?
"Muslims in Pakistan Kidnap, Rape Christian Girl," from Compass Direct, June 16 (thanks to Twostellas):

RAWALPINDI, Pakistan, June 16 (CDN) -- Five Muslims here kidnapped and raped a Christian girl after threatening to kill her unless her father allowed one of them to marry her. Lazarus Masih said one of his three daughters, 14, was kidnapped on May 29 by five men identified only as Guddu, Kamran, Waqas, Adil and Ali. Police recovered her on June 6 in a raid on the home where she was being held, though the suspects escaped.
"They threatened that if I don't get her married to Guddu, they would kill her," Masih said. "One of them said, 'We attended an Islamic religious convention, and the speaker said if you marry a non-Muslim or rape a non-Muslim girl, you will get 70 virgins in heaven."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/we-at ... ape-a.html

[anupmisra]

Lies, damn lies, and paki myths

Anti-federation plots originating in Punjab: Babar

Federal Law Minister Babar Awan says if “conspiracies originating from Punjab” continue, the unity of the federation cannot be guaranteed.

“In Pakistan, everyone has equal rights and accountability should not be selective.

we have restored democracy with our blood and nobody has given us this on a platter.”

“We are not afraid (of facing cases). President Asif Ali Zardari has been facing cases for the last 17 years. Mohtarma Benazir Bhutto also faced cases,”

There is no political prisoner in the country.

We believe in across the board accountability and not that of ‘selective’ one,”

The law minister said ‘fake” cases against PPP leaders were instituted in Punjab. “They chose someone from the prison to get a murder case registered against Zulifqar Ali Bhutto, then a cycle thief became complainant in a drug case against Asif Zardari and yet again they have launched someone from the prison to frame me,” he said.

Other than court-related issues, the minister also defended his government on economic fronts, saying the recent federal budget was people-friendly, and next budgets would be even better than the previous ones.

And, the best one yet:

He said democracy was the strength of the PPP.

[Prem]

NDTV: Future of Indo-Pak Relations? -4/5

Watch GP, he mentione that practically Paki exist in Indian conciousness onlee becuase of terorrism otherwise new genration Indians dont give a FF about Pawkistan. And the pawki guy waant proof that Indian accept Pawki do exist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxX8DS4J ... re=related

[RajeshA]

In theory, there is no reason for the Pakis not to despise the Chinese as just as kufr as Indians (and even more godless). This is one of the biggest contradictions in Pakistan (which is saying a lot), that they claim 'inherent differences' with India - different religion, language, ethnicity, approach to life, etc. etc. - as a reason that they must gravitate away from India and towards C. and W. Asia; in the next breath they turn to the Chinese, who are far more distant culturally than Indians. If aam abdul in Pakiland could be made to connect China = kuffar, could that serve as the beginnings of a wedge to prise the rentboy and his taller-than customer apart?

Pakistani hate for India has got nothing to do with Hindus being Kufr, but rather a hate what one sibling 'could' have for the other: Duryodhana vs Bhim, Loki vs Thor, Shinzon vs Jean-Luc Picard, itiyadi.

All this 'Kufr' thing is simply an effort by the Pakistani to find a basis for his hate. After all a Pakistani knows he is only an adopted son of this land, of Bharat Mata, and the Indics would always be the Bhumiputras. After all a Pakistani knows that he is only the najayaz aulad of Arabs and he would never have the same respect as a Muslim. After all a Pakistani knows that no matter how TFTA he might try to be or how well his English may be pronounced, he will never be a White, a Master. A Pakistani hates himself, and looks upon the Indians as an easy target to redirect his self-loathing. Calling Pakistanis' psychosis an identity crisis, is mistaking the iceberg for a deformed snowman. When one hears how often the Pakistanis repeat, "if we sink, will will take India with us", then one knows that the Pakistani psyche is preprogrammed for self-destruction. When suicide bombing was first introduced to Pakistan, it was like a man finding his destiny, his calling. Soon it will be the national sport there!

There is no cure for this psychosis. One just needs to let the program reach its logical conclusion.

In Paki minds the Mughal Era wars are still continuing. The dominance of mazhab has not been decided yet in Hindustan, blah, blah. In Indian minds, we are way ahead in the future, and don't seem to understand why the Pakis are not keeping pace in mentality. After all we have had 63 years of the 20th/21st century to get over this childishness. Reality does not seem to bother Pakistan. Even the reality that they are utter losers is something the Dhritarashtra will not see. If they are destined to lose the fight of modernity in the present, they are willing to timeport Barbaria into the present, to have a better chance of winning. Where the whole world knows that the Pakistanis are getting a full-size GUBO, the Pakistanis think that they are just making a pit-stop and getting a gas-fill. A Pakistani is a creature able to see past reality, an automaton only working with fuzzy logic; his mind a universe without any physical laws; a totem with a 3½ meter pole up his musharraf singing 'I'm still standing'.

So Kamboja ji,
Good Luck to you in understanding the Pakistani contradictions.

[BijuShet]

From The News : Landlords not rich people, PA told

Friday, June 18, 2010 - By Imtiaz Ali - Karachi

MQM legislators in the Sindh Assembly on Thursday complained of an “uneven” allocation of development schemes while PPP MPAs criticised suggestion of imposing an “agriculture tax” by saying that it was a myth that the landlords were rich people.
...
PPP’s Sardar Ahmed Ali Pitafi said “landlords are paying agriculture tax” and that it was wrong to think that they were rich. He said he was willing to surrender all his agricultural land if “Bandu Khan’s plot” was given to him.

PPP’s Aisha Khoso said thousands of acres of land was being destroyed by water-logging and salinity in Jacobabad and urged the Sindh government to save those lands.

PPP’s Imdad Pitafi said he owned 300 to 400 acres of land, but even a “pan shop owner” in Karachi was living a better life than he did.

He suggested that a committee with MQM MPAs on it should be made to visit the rural areas to see the poor conditions the landlords were living in.
...
Ms Naheed said Sukkur was the third largest city of Sindh, but its people had had no drinking water. Nor the city had any university, she added.
...
He said that Orangi Town was Asia’s biggest slum area and it required attention of the government for its development.
...

[BijuShet]

Just another lawless day in TSP (This whole incident is another filmi episode like the last one where folks were shooting inside the courthouse).
From The News : Constable killed as old man opens fire on police team

Friday, June 18, 2010 - Shakeel Anjum - Islamabad

A constable was killed and three others, including an assistant sub-inspector, sustained critical wounds when an elderly man opened fire on a police team to free his son from its custody, police sources told ‘The News’ here on Thursday.

The old man managed to escape from the scene after freeing his son from police custody, police said, adding that the youngster was also wounded in firing.

“Constable Muhammad Mushtaq died on the spot, while ASI Turab-ul-Hassan, constables Muhammad Saleem and Muhammad Arshad were among the wounded who were shifted to the Pakistan Institute of Medical Sciences (PIMS) for medical assistance.

Deputy Superintendent of Police (Saddar) Jameel Hashmi, when contacted by this correspondent, confirming the report said that police have cordoned off the area to arrest the assailant. He said that the attacker has been identified as Muhammad Siddique, son of Muhammad Noor, a resident of Bhaiga Syedan.

Jameel Hashmi told ‘The News’ that a group of pilgrims, carrying a ‘daali,’ was heading towards the shrine of Baba Fazal Din to attend the annual ‘urs’ at about 3 p.m. Some participants were carrying guns and firing in the air continuously despite a ban on aerial firing.

The DSP said that a police team was sent to the scene upon receiving information about the violation of law to intercept them. He said that police reached the scene and arrested a youngster involved in aerial firing. In the meantime, his father reached the spot and opened fire on police to free him from police custody.

Consequently, four police personnel, who were in the range of firing, sustained bullet injuries and fell on the ground. Constable Muhammad Mushtaq died on the spot, while others were rushed to the hospital. Constable Muhammad Arshad, who sustained a bullet in his chest, is in critical condition.

Police have registered a case against the assailant and sent police teams to arrest him, Jameel Hashmi said, adding that a search operation has been started in Bhaiga Syedan for arresting the accused.

Inspector General of Police (Islamabad) Syed Kaleem Imam has said that those behind the incident would not be spared and booked soon.

The IGP also announced an amount of Rs2 million to the next of kin of the deceased cop, who sacrificed his life for the implementation of law and order.

[Bhima]

Great post RajeshA. How can Pakistanis have honour when they are insulted by the truth?

[A_Gupta]

I don't think this has been posted yet; posting in full. I hope someone can explain what exactly to read between the lines here.
Dawn:
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... njab-hs-01

LAHORE: The Senior Advisor to Chief Minister Punjab Zulfiqar Khosa on Friday admitted that recruitments were being made from terrorist groups in South Punjab and said that the government was well aware of its responsibilities.

While talking to the media in Lahore, Khosa said that only one minister, who had not even seen the entire province, was talking about Punjabi Taliban.

He said that the contacts which the jihadi groups had built in South Punjab during the Soviet war were still intact today and recruitment were being made through these cells.

Khosa said that the provincial government was well aware of its responsibilities and claimed that there were no training camps of terrorists in Punjab.—DawnNews

[Prem]

Paapi Pawki Pee Pee Pee panga
That vision thing! —Salman Tarik Kureshi

From other sources, we know that one-third of Pakistani families have an income below one dollar a day and another one-third have an income of under two dollars a day. Thus, fully two-thirds of all Pakistanis — 110 million souls — live in families with an average income of perhaps around $ 1.5 a day, or a meagre Rs 3,800 per month. Do you note, dear reader, that this figure of Rs 3,800, which represents the monthly earnings, in cash and in kind, of the great bulk of Pakistani citizens, is a little over half of the minimum wages decreed in Dr Shaikh’s budget.To get from this to a monthly average income of Rs 47,500, the remaining families would have to be earning the mammoth average of Rs 135,000 per month (you can work it out for yourself). Now, that is the kind of salary enjoyed by quite senior bankers, MNC executives and bureaucrats. There are not 55 million of such in the Islamic Republic! Clearly, the vast bulk of even this better-off one-third would be somewhere in the lower-middle income levels. One therefore concludes that there is amongst us a tiny minority, whose incomes are so extraordinarily high that they pull Pakistan’s per capita income up to $ 1,040, when the great bulk of the population lives well below poverty levels.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2010_pg3_2

[Prem]

141 percent surge in US investment
( Taller and Deeper Missing in da List)
RIZWAN BHATTI

KARACHI (June 19 2010): Net foreign investment by USA in Pakistan has surged by 141 percent during the eleven months of current fiscal year mainly due to high investment in equity market. According to the State Bank of Pakistan (SBP), net foreign investment by US investors registered remarkable increase of $563 million, to $961 million, in July-May of fiscal year 2010 as compared to $398 million in same period of last fiscal year.Net foreign investment has posted massive surge on the back of portfolio investment, while foreign direct investment (FDI), Similarly, United Kingdom (UK) investment posted an increase of 69 percent during the first eleven months of current fiscal year. UK invested $280 million in July-May of 2010 as compared $166 million dollar in corresponding period of last fiscal year. UK's FDI stood at 263.4 million dollars in the last fiscal year relative to 460.4 million dollars in fiscal year 2008, showing a decrease of 42.8 percent, while portfolio investment stood at a negative position of 77.7 million dollars.UAE invested $208 million, Switzerland $161 million, Netherlands $272 million, Singapore $105 million, Malaysia $11.8 million and Hong Kong made $28 million investment in first eleven months of current fiscal year. Total foreign investment witnessed a decline of 14 percent to $1.89 billion during July-May of current fiscal year as compared to an investment of $2.22 billion in fiscal year 2008.

http://www.brecorder.com/index.php?id=1 ... =&supDate=

[shiv]

Is there a way that India can convince China to stop supporting Pakistan?

China can only become more paranoid about India as Pakistan makes itself irrelevant. But fostering jihad in Xinjiang is a good idea. The people of Xinjiang are not allowed to practise their religion freely.