Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 2010

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Brad Goodman
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by Brad Goodman »

arun wrote: James,

IMO more the instinct of self preservation kicking in rather than a publicity stunt.

The individual Farzana Shah aka Jana Shah was reportedly a close acolyte of that bigoted Zaid Hamid. See this post here.

Zaid Hamid is now tainted with the guilt of associating with a blasphemer. In the Islamic Republic of Pakistan that puts you firmly in the cross hairs of a whole bunch of people with extermination on their mind.

With no discernable protection likely forthcoming from the ordinary Abdul and Ayesha’s of the Islamic Republic looks to me that Farzana Shah aka Jana Shah is making a bid for protective sympathy from the West by playing up “liberal” credentials of not wearing a hijab .

I have read quite a lot of jana shah's posts on deaf & dumb forum as well as her blog. She is ultra right wing conspiracy theory immersed jihadi RAPE. This is the irony of RAPES they will talk of shariah and islam to general public and their actions will be exactly opposite come on this mohatarma needs be in hizab and not partying, but instead tending to her husband abdul and dozen kids.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by RamaY »

pgbhat wrote:
link wrote:"One has to understand where I'm coming from," Shahzad calmly replied. "I consider myself ... a Muslim soldier."
"It's a war. I am part of the answer to the U.S. terrorizing the Muslim nations and the Muslim people," he said. "On behalf of that, I'm revenging the attack. Living in the United States, Americans only care about their people, but they don't care about the people elsewhere in the world when they die."
"The people select the government. We consider them all the same," Shahzad said during the hour-long hearing.
No wonder rest of Islamic-world looks at these wanna-be-Araps-with-Herps with amusement and disdain :D

These guys want to save islam from YYY-axis for their Arap ancestors, who are already in bed with these same YYY-axis getting pregmented every now and then...

What can else we expect to come out of a schizophrenic's brain 8)
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by RamaY »

Proof to my post above:

Life of a wanna-pee-Arap-with-Herps
RAJA SAHIB OF MAHMUDABAD
He migrated to Pakistan after Independence. but was disillusioned by the political turmoil and migrated to Iraq; subsequently settling in London where he remained Director of the Islamic Culture Centre for some time. He died on October 14. 1973 in London and was buried at Mashhad (Iran).
:rotfl: This heir of richest estates of the Awadh, couldn't find a 3x6ft peaceful land in puristan, which is found on the basis of Religion of Peace.

Karma/Dharma Devata Namo Namah!
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by Prem »

Lawmakers Seize on Times Square Terrorism Case
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2010/06/2 ... /[quote]By Devlin Barrett
A day after a guilty plea in the attempted bombing of Times Square, a group of senators is seeking to force the Obama administration to declare that the Pakistan Taliban group behind the attack is a terrorist group.
NYPD officers keep watch in Times Square Monday. Accused Times Square bomber Faisal Shahzad pleaded guilty Monday to all terror and weapons charges. (Photo by Mario Tama/Getty Images) Faisal Shahzad, a U.S. citizen born in Pakistan, said in court Monday that his failed car bomb plot was backed and financed by the Pakistan Taliban. Still, the group isn’t yet labeled a terrorist organization by the U.S. government, unlike al Qaeda and its affiliates. Placing the Pakistan Taliban on the State Department’s list of terror organizations is more than just a bureaucratic step. It would allow the U.S. to seize assets of the Pakistan Taliban, and permit prosecutors to charge individuals with providing material support to the group.[/quote]
( Individuals!!! what about then Billions sent by USG tp PAW G)
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by jash_p »

Do any one know what Gen. Stanley McChrystal said, about Af-Pak in Rolling Stone interview and Obama got angry and call him back ?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by CRamS »

jash_p wrote:Do any one know what Gen. Stanley McChrystal said, about Af-Pak in Rolling Stone interview and Obama got angry and call him back ?
You should browse other threads too, or read the front page of the NYT.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by ramana »

RamaY wrote:Proof to my post above:

Life of a wanna-pee-Arap-with-Herps
RAJA SAHIB OF MAHMUDABAD
He migrated to Pakistan after Independence. but was disillusioned by the political turmoil and migrated to Iraq; subsequently settling in London where he remained Director of the Islamic Culture Centre for some time. He died on October 14. 1973 in London and was buried at Mashhad (Iran).
:rotfl: This heir of richest estates of the Awadh, couldn't find a 3x6ft peaceful land in puristan, which is found on the basis of Religion of Peace.

Karma/Dharma Devata Namo Namah!
He might be a Shia and wanted to be in Iran. Mashad has a big mosque. I dont see how he ended up in Mashad otherwise.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by NRao »

The wheels are turning:

Officials move to designate Pakistani Taliban as terror group

Now you can go back to sleep.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by ramana »

NRao wrote:The wheels are turning:

Officials move to designate Pakistani Taliban as terror group

Now you can go back to sleep.

So while the Afghan Taliban who housed the 9/11 attackers are becoming good Taliban, the Paki Taliban who are trying to overthrow the Pakjabi rule in the NWFP are being labelled bad Taliban.

Finding who benefits will clear up the confusion.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by Anujan »

Looks like Gen. McChrystal is going to get a boot up his musharraf from Ombaba.

There are several "factions" vis-a-vis Af-Pak.

1. There is Biden who is dead against increasing troop commitment to Afghanistan
2. Then there is Eikenberry along with (now dismissed) Peter Galbraith who are taking/took a strong Anti-Karzai (because he is corrupt!! Zomg!!) stand. Interestingly nobody wonders how Peter Galbraith was consultant to the Kurds in writing the Iraqi constitution on dividing the oil revenues and how magically his company landed up the rights for oil fields in Kurdish territories of Iraq.
3. There is Holbrooke who thinks Af-Pak can be won by talking up a storm and "playing down differences" to "find common ground" (remember his comment that Indians were *not* the target in the Kabul attack?)
4. There is McChrystal who comes from a special forces background, who thinks that targeted counter-insurgency accompanied by local informants & collaborators will fix things. So he is extremely reluctant to authorize airstrikes and artillery attacks. This was touted as a the best idea since sliced bread when he took charge* and now you have people from the woodworks (including today's NYTimes article) about how that means that more Americans get killed
5. Then there is the top level commanders and grunts on the field who just want to level everyone by artillery and air-strikes. NYTimes quotes one as saying “I wish we had generals who remembered what it was like when they were down in a platoon. Either they never have been in real fighting, or they forgot what it’s like.”

What nobody seems to understand is that instead of winning "hearts and minds", they should be winning "pockets and minds". I.E. Pay better than ISI and put the fear of God in their heads which is stronger than the standard tellibunny brainwashing by Pakistan. And force escalation, kicks on the musharraf, no tolerance to corruption ityadi should be practiced in Pakistan if they wish to have any hopes of winning. Sad to see these guys thrashing around clueless.

*Even though Afghanistan is not really comparable to Kashmir, within the narrow context of (a) Pakistan training and sending in Jihadis and (b) having to be restrained in the application of force to win "hearts and minds" they are similar. I salute the Indian Jawans for their patience, bravery and restraint.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by anupmisra »

pgbhat wrote:
link wrote:"One has to understand where I'm coming from," Shahzad calmly replied.
That says it all. Once a paki, always a terrorist.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Militant’s Path From Pakistan to Times Square

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/23/world/23terror.html
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by SSridhar »

Pakistan conflicted over targeting rising extremists in its heartland - Washington Post
Excerpt
When Nawaz Sharif, the former prime minister who heads the ruling party in Punjab, called the Ahmadis "brothers and sisters," a coalition of conservative clerics denounced him as a traitor. He and his party stood by the statement.

But on a recent day at the Lahore Zoo, several people interviewed said they agreed with the mullahs.

"They have no right to live here. They are followers of the devil," shopkeeper Mohammed Nadeem, 26, said of the Ahmadis, as he watched swans with his wife and toddler. The attacks, he said, "were good."

The Ahmadis say they have little doubt they remain in militants' crosshairs. Their leaders say that they reported specific threats before the attacks and that police ignored them; authorities deny that. The few policemen posted outside the mosques fled when gunmen began firing, said Shahid Ata-Ullah, an Ahmadi leader.

Even so, the Ahmadis quickly wiped away the blood and resumed their worship. On a recent Friday outside the peach-colored Darul Zikr mosque, where nearly 70 people were killed, fresh sandbags were piled up. A new brigade of male members of the mosque stood guard -- and they carried concealed weapons, something provincial authorities allowed after the siege.

"We thought the police would protect us," said Naseer ul-Haq Khan, a retired army colonel who was at the mosque on the day of the attack. "Now we are wise."{Is this Retd. Colonel so dumb ? }
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Is Holbrooke really a 'wounded animal'?

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts ... ded_animal
Diplomatic sources said that Holbrooke, who took his activity largely out of the public eye following an open dispute with Afghan President Hamid Karzai following last year's presidential election, is experiencing a quiet resurgence inside the administration, taking a lead role in dealing with Pakistan as National Security Advisor Jim Jones is tied up with so many other issues.
"Insiders say Obama's envoy -- a talented diplomat and notorious jerk -- has lousy relations with Afghans and Pakistanis alike," the Rolling Stone article said. "Why he's staying: White House fears a ‘tell-all' more than his diplomatic blunders."
"Holbrooke is very deeply invested in the idea of a reintegration program," said Teresita Schaffer, director of the South Asia Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

"He is still the center of the universe on decisions in the U.S. government as far as Pakistan is concerned," Shaffer said.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by Rudradev »

I've been thinking about Cold Start.

Let's say Pakistan conducts a major terrorist attack, and the go-ahead is given for Cold Start. Within days, pivot corps strike along the Punjab and Rajasthan borders and wreak havoc among the TSPA formations there, and then come back.

And even before they are back in barracks, ISI assets are mobilized in a number of Indian cities and 5-6 more major terrorist attacks take place. Even if they don't cause that much damage, thanks to heightened security in the wake of the first attack, what will India do next?

This is not an implausible scenario by any means. No doubt there are factions within TSPA who would be delighted if Kiyani received a thappad from our Cold Start response... a quick, humiliating strike would be just the thing to sideline and remove him. However, it would be important to those very factions to save H&D by showing that Cold Start had not dented Pakistan's will or capability to conduct sub-conventional strikes in India.

Plus, the faction of TSPA which replaces Kiyani in such a situation, will stand on firmer ground with the Americans in two ways. First, they will be able to cry "look what India did with their Cold Start" and demand M1s, F-16s, etc. etc. in greater numbers and threaten to cut off supplies to US/NATO forces in Afghanistan if they are denied. Second, they will use the fact that terrorist attacks happened against India even after Cold Start, as "proof" that terrorism is the work of "non state actors" over whom they have no control.

The Cold Start doctrine, as I understand it, is designed to discourage *conventional* escalation by Pakistan (and interference by the international community during the time lost to a major mobilization like Parakram.) But what if the escalation itself is asymmetric? What should India's response be?
Last edited by Rudradev on 23 Jun 2010 09:47, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by sum »

Building trust, one step at a time-- S****** V******
The visits to Islamabad this week by Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao and Home Minister P. Chidambaram will provide India and Pakistan with the opportunity of erecting the scaffolding for a dialogue process that could eventually allow the two countries to make substantial progress on their core concerns.

India's position on the necessity of dialogue has held steady since the ‘Thimphu thaw' in April, suggesting all relevant political and institutional stakeholders are on board. The foreign secretary's speech to the Afghanistan-India-Pakistan ‘trialogue' on June 13 has added greater clarity and depth, especially on the question of trust-building. Terrorism continues to be the main obstacle but the Indian analysis of the interplay between terror, Pakistan's internal political dynamics and diplomacy is much more nuanced and sophisticated today than it was a year ago.

From the open-ended, maximalist demand of a complete shut down of terrorist infrastructure, the Manmohan Singh government is today looking for incremental progress across a range of vectors. The trial of the Lashkar-e-Taiba men accused by Pakistan of masterminding the November 2008 terrorist attack on Mumbai is the most important of these. But India would also like to see forward movement on humanitarian issues, as well as on the cross-border and cross-Line of Control confidence building measures agreed by the two sides in recent years. Ms Rao's remarkable speech also flagged another metric, crucial to the fate of any dialogue process: “We also have to reaffirm the progress made through complex negotiations and dialogue through patient and unsung effort whether in the composite dialogue or back channel diplomacy, during this period.”

It was necessary for the foreign secretary to reiterate this point because neither the civilian government in Pakistan nor the post-Musharraf military establishment has so far shown a willingness to embrace the conceptual headway made by Islamabad and New Delhi between 2004 and 2008 on the Kashmir issue. The Peoples' Party government is perhaps wary of accepting the legacy of a dictator, and General Kayani — who may have silently gritted his teeth when Musharraf pushed his ‘out of the box' formula on Kashmir with his top commanders — thinks he has better cards to play today.

The truth is that there are no other cards. The ‘make borders irrelevant' approach is the only game in town and sooner or later all stakeholders in Pakistan will have to be reconciled to it. While Ms Rao did the right thing by flagging the importance of the back channel, India has to be patient and give the politicians and generals the time and space they need to reinvent the wheel. There is also merit in Pakistani foreign minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi's remark that the back channel cannot make headway if the front channel is stuck. If trust is required to move the front channel again, the amount of trust needed to work the back channel is much greater.

At a recent Track-II meeting of the Pugwash group in Islamabad, Pakistani and Indian analysts and former officials had an animated discussion on terrorism, Afghanistan, water, Kashmir and the nuclear issue. While the two sides disagreed and argued on virtually every subject, the discussions on terrorism produced some clarity. The Pakistani side spoke of the legal difficulties in handling terrorism cases, noting that the high-profile trials of terrorists involved in the bombing of the Marriot hotel in Islamabad and the assassination of the Surgeon-General had unfortunately ended in acquittals. A well-regarded criminal lawyer from Lahore spoke of the difficulties surrounding the trial of the LeT men accused of attacking Mumbai and made a plea for better coordination between the Pakistani and Indian authorities in that case.

The Indian side responded by noting that the fight against terror was only partially a legal one. And that what is needed is a demonstration of political will, something that is lacking in Islamabad's feeble attempts to rein in anti-India terror groups. The Pakistani participants acknowledged this, but argued that their government was weak and couldn't afford to open up too many fronts at the same time. This, too, was disputed by the Indians. At the same time, there was general agreement that the legal case against the 26/11 accused had taken on a significance of its own, that the fragile dialogue process might not survive an acquittal and that, therefore, some coordinated effort needs to put in by both governments to ensure the best possible legal case is mounted against them.

Should meet frequently

In this context, one question Ms Rao and Mr. Chidambaram should seriously examine as they prepare themselves for their visit is whether the endless and somewhat gladiatorial exchange of ‘dossiers' with Pakistan is the most efficient way of going about prosecuting terrorists accused of perpetrating a heinous cross-border crime. Granted, there is a trust deficit. But if, instead of exchanging thick manila envelopes, the officials who work on these dossiers were to meet frequently, this may well provide for more efficient if not effective interaction.

India has bad memories of the short-lived Joint Anti-Terror Mechanism and is not in favour of its revival. But functional cooperation between the investigators who have probed the Mumbai attack case on both sides will help Pakistani prosecutors make a rock solid case against Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi and the other LeT men now standing trial in a Rawalpindi anti-terror court. Depending on how that process works, more structured interaction between India's National Investigation Agency and Pakistan's Federal Investigation Agency should also be considered. This would be one concrete way in which the two sides try to build up a degree of trust.

Second, Pakistan will have to make every possible effort to keep in check provocateurs like Hafiz Saeed of the LeT and tamp down on terrorist infiltration from its territory across the Line of Control.

The third source of building trust is for India and Pakistan to prioritise humanitarian issues, especially the plight of juveniles and fishermen who end up spending a long time in each other's jails for crossing the border illegally because of the absence of proper diplomatic mechanisms. Activating the joint judicial commission to deal with the speedy release and exchange of prisoners who have finished serving their sentences is also an urgent necessity. Deepening existing cross-LoC CBMs, especially those relating to trade, should also be taken up immediately.

Fourth, the two sides should ensure that foreign secretary- and/or joint secretary-level discussions take place every month to resolve pressing concerns. Meetings at the official level must be held regardless of the state of bilateral relations and would be in addition to whatever formal dialogue structure emerges to address issues and disputes over Kashmir, Siachen, water or any other issue.

The goal of the upcoming round of talks as well as those between the two foreign ministers in July should be to prepare for the adoption of a structured, interim engagement process. Later this year, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh will have an opportunity to meet again with his Pakistani counterpart on the sidelines of the U.N. General Assembly in New York in September. If India is gracious enough to invite Yusuf Raza Gilani to attend the opening of the Commonwealth Games in Delhi in October, that would provide another occasion for the two leaders to take stock of the relationship and settle on an appropriate dialogue structure. The problem of getting Pakistan back on track as far as the ‘soft borders' solution to Kashmir is concerned would still remain, of course. One proposal Prime Minister Singh could make at that juncture to demonstrate the benefit of cross-LoC arrangements would be for India and Pakistan to examine whether a single project on the Kishenganga-Jhelum-Neelum with traded electricity might be a better option than building rival hydroelectric projects. {:rotfl: OR :cry: at this?}
As disgusting as the article might seem, the joke is finally on the jingoes since whatever outlandish things SV says finally become GoI policy over time whereas BRFites can only mock at his WKKism ...
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by Prem »

Uproar over Kalabagh dam

http://www.brecorder.com/index.php?id=1 ... =&supDate=
Tempers ran so high in the upper house on Thursday that Senate Chairman Farooq Naek had to suspend proceedings for nearly half an hour. What had triggered an angry uproar were remarks by PML-Q Senator Tariq Azeem, who, while participating in the budget debate, called for a dispassionate reassessment of the Kalabagh dam and creation of consensus on the controversial project.
ANP legislators as well as PPP members from Sindh responded with uncontrolled rage shouting slogans of "ghaddar (traitor)" and "Kalabagh namanzoor (unacceptable)".
( Pawkistan Khappe or Khabbe :lol: )Three days earlier, another PML-Q legislator, Bushra Rehman, had initiated nasty arguments on the issue in the National Assembly. Taking up the issue in a rather casual manner she contended that if NWFP could be renamed Khyber-Pakhtoonkhwa why could the Kalabagh dam not be built. That brought a storm of protests and a walkout from Kalabagh's opponents while some of its supporters suggested holding a referendum to settle the controversy.Notably, last Wednesday the Sindh Assembly unanimously passed a new resolution (Sindh, former NWFP and Balochistan assemblies had already passed resolutions on the issue against the dam construction, going to great lengths to show the depth of its resolve).
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by SSridhar »

Rudradev, the Low Intensity Conflict (LIC) since the mid-80s has been launched by Pakistan under its strong belief of quickly escalating it into a wider conflict with nuclear ramifications if India chose to retaliate robustly. This has hampered India in Kargil, in Parliament Attack, commuter train attack and now 26/11. The belief in Pakistan is also that even if an undeterred India decided to call the Pakistani bluff by persisting with its response, the US and others (read China) would intervene to either arrest further deterioration of the situation or come to its rescue. In Kargil, the US conjured up a 'nuclear flashpoint' and intervened and the US president promised to pay more attention to resolving Kashmir. This validated the Pakistani belief. The Pakistani LIC strategy is thus based on three pillars: escalation to conventional war; threats of a nuclear war; international intervention in its favour. These are the three things, IMHO, that India needs to tackle. All of them need enormous political resolve and unity. The ruling and opposition parties must be united and corporate entities must not cry foul as they did last time around. GoI cannot build consensus after the event because the response will unravel quickly and there will be no time. Broad hints must be thrown to these stakeholders now and they must be convinced that India cannot wait for another 20 years to even contemplate a response because our GDP is not enough etc.

As part of securing its LIC flank, Pakistan wants to blunt the Indian Cold Start. That is why it refuses to move its troops from the India borders. There can be no other reason for not moving some of these troops to FATA since the Eastern border has been peaceful for over six years now, save the occassional Pakistani violations themselves. It knows that even a reluctant India cannot keep on absorbing body blows and at some time, it will react through its Cold Start. It also knows that Cold Start will inflict damage, mostly to terrorist infrastructure and possibly to those PA units providing logistical support to the terror camps. PA would then like to quickly escalate that to a conventional war because its troops are still present in the area and quickly thereafter threaten India with nuclear attacks.

India must be prepared for the escalation into conventional war. The conventional war cannot last for too long. Such a war would increase the pain for the US and that is what we must aim to do. Our response must no longer remain muted or theatre-specific once such escalation happens. Cold Start itself must not be delayed beyond a few hours after a terrorist incident. The response must be very swift to carry the message that India has embarked on a punishment mode. Of course, there will be those who would say that India attacked Pakistan without proof. After having endured wave after wave of terrorism from Pakistan for over two decades, one should hardly talk of proof or listen to such nonsense.

As for a nuclear attack, that would remain more or less a threat. Pakistan may use a TNW but that might result in massive conventional retaliation by India without nuclear weapons. I do not think India will be angered into using nukes quickly. India will also raise a huge diplomatic row but should continue to inflict massive damage on Pakistani infrastructure without budging to international pressure.

Thirdly, India must be prepared to weather huge international pressure just the same way Israel does. India's case is even stronger because it had never retaliated in anger before.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by pgbhat »

SSridhar wrote:These are the three things, IMHO, that India needs to tackle. All of them need enormous political resolve and unity. The ruling and opposition parties must be united and corporate entities must not cry foul as they did last time around. GoI cannot build consensus after the event because the response will unravel quickly and there will be no time. Broad hints must be thrown to these stakeholders now and they must be convinced that India cannot........
Our "Pakistan policy", if it exists, seems contrary to this.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by shravan »

LHC orders blocking of Google, Yahoo, 7 other sites

BAHAWALPUR: The Lahore High Court has directed the Pakistan Telecommunication Authority to immediately block nine websites for publishing and promoting sacrilegious material, and ordered the PTA chairman to appear in the court on June 28, 2010 along with all relevant material.

Justice Mazher Iqbal Sidhu of the LHC Bahawalpur Bench, while hearing a write petition on Tuesday, ordered blocking of nine websites including Yahoo, MSN, Hotmail, YouTube, Google, Islam Exposed, In The Name Of Allah, Amazon and Bing.
Last edited by SSridhar on 23 Jun 2010 11:45, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited to highlight
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by SSridhar »

The Lahore High Court is full of fundamentalist judges. Its CJ Khwaja Sharif blamed Hindus a couple of months back for all the bombings taking place in Pakistan ! No wonder, the LHC never finds any 'evidence' against Professor saheb or any other venerable terrorist at all.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by Sri »

SSridhar wrote:Rudradev, the Low Intensity Conflict (LIC) since the mid-80s has been launched by Pakistan under its strong belief of quickly escalating it into a wider conflict with nuclear ramifications if India chose to retaliate robustly. This has hampered India in Kargil, in Parliament Attack, commuter train attack and now 26/11. The belief in Pakistan is also that even if an undeterred India decided to call the Pakistani bluff by persisting with its response, the US and others (read China) would intervene to either arrest further deterioration of the situation or come to its rescue. In Kargil, the US conjured up a 'nuclear flashpoint' and intervened and the US president promised to pay more attention to resolving Kashmir. This validated the Pakistani belief. The Pakistani LIC strategy is thus based on three pillars: escalation to conventional war; threats of a nuclear war; international intervention in its favour. These are the three things, IMHO, that India needs to tackle. All of them need enormous political resolve and unity. The ruling and opposition parties must be united and corporate entities must not cry foul as they did last time around. GoI cannot build consensus after the event because the response will unravel quickly and there will be no time. Broad hints must be thrown to these stakeholders now and they must be convinced that India cannot wait for another 20 years to even contemplate a response because our GDP is not enough etc.

As part of securing its LIC flank, Pakistan wants to blunt the Indian Cold Start. That is why it refuses to move its troops from the India borders. There can be no other reason for not moving some of these troops to FATA since the Eastern border has been peaceful for over six years now, save the occassional Pakistani violations themselves. It knows that even a reluctant India cannot keep on absorbing body blows and at some time, it will react through its Cold Start. It also knows that Cold Start will inflict damage, mostly to terrorist infrastructure and possibly to those PA units providing logistical support to the terror camps. PA would then like to quickly escalate that to a conventional war because its troops are still present in the area and quickly thereafter threaten India with nuclear attacks.

India must be prepared for the escalation into conventional war. The conventional war cannot last for too long. Such a war would increase the pain for the US and that is what we must aim to do. Our response must no longer remain muted or theatre-specific once such escalation happens. Cold Start itself must not be delayed beyond a few hours after a terrorist incident. The response must be very swift to carry the message that India has embarked on a punishment mode. Of course, there will be those who would say that India attacked Pakistan without proof. After having endured wave after wave of terrorism from Pakistan for over two decades, one should hardly talk of proof or listen to such nonsense.

As for a nuclear attack, that would remain more or less a threat. Pakistan may use a TNW but that might result in massive conventional retaliation by India without nuclear weapons. I do not think India will be angered into using nukes quickly. India will also raise a huge diplomatic row but should continue to inflict massive damage on Pakistani infrastructure without budging to international pressure.

Thirdly, India must be prepared to weather huge international pressure just the same way Israel does. India's case is even stronger because it had never retaliated in anger before.
Sridharan Sir, It's good that we are discussing Cold Start (CS) here after sometime. I have been itching to discuss it here rather then the Military forum, cos invariably the argument there assumes a more Gung ho attitude.

My contention is that CS is inherently a flawed concept and doesn't act as an deterrent at all. I think the whole strategy achieves nothing and creates massive hullabaloo which in longer run the Indian polity will come to detest (like the 'diplomatic offensive' after 26/11).

As you mentioned above, until unless we do not have the stomach to for a long drawn conventional conflict, NO other military response will ever be enough. If anything, if we do successfully implement the CS doctrine without a huge conventional back up, then it gives PA all the more reason / motivation to continuing LIC. We have to come to an understanding that if there is any chance of a military solution then it only if we have the guts, motive and capability to inflict a huge conventional defeat to Pakistan and HOLD LARGE SWAYS OF THEIR TERRITORY. Specially fertile areas of Punjab and Sindh.

Look at the mindset of a Paki strategist, he is drawing inspirations from likes of Ghauri, Ghazni and later the Moghuls. And all the three suffered BIG losses in India in their initial raids. But the kept at it. This was only possible because they were secure in their knowledge that NO Indian Army will follow them back home. We have to change that mindset. We should seriously now think on strategies where our armed forces are willing and able to not only win land but also HOLD it for the time till we achieve a favorable political settlement.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by Sanku »

The CS was military doctrine not a political one. CS merely enabled the forces to quickly strike after the go ahead had been given.

It does not in any case address the lack of stomach for decision making and such (short term long term). It is not supposed too.

It was also being done in a context where the current GoI (for all its other possible faults) did not lack from stomach towards making decisions.

Its yet another tool for the politician, how they use it and their capabilities are a very different discussion.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by RajeshA »

The only way to stop terrorism in India, is if India accepts the principle of

LAND for TERRORISM.

Pakistan conducts some terrorist activity in India, and India attacks Pakistan somewhere and takes over some land. India does not need to escalate it, just take over some land at a point of our choosing at a time of our choosing. Call it compensation for the terrorist activity. This land shall not be returned, unless Pakistan's Allah manages to bring back the dead, who lost their lives in the terrorist attack.

The sooner the Pakis stop using terror, the less land they will lose.

Amount of land taken should be proportional to the scale of the terrorist attack. The proportional reaction will further underline, that it is a reaction to terrorism and not arbitrary land grab. Terrorism as State policy and a strategic tool for Pakistan should have costs for Pakistan over and beyond, their line, that they too are victims of terrorism.

In fact, I will go further, and say, the land thus conquered/grabbed can be distributed amongst the relatives of the dead and injured, which they are free to sell if they want, or build a mandir or gurudwara or church or masjid on top of it, if they want, or build villas and farm-houses, or discos or shopping malls, or huge penises with busts of Pakistanis sitting on top, anything to rub in Pakistan's loss.

This is a point I made after 26/11, and I am repeating it here. The loss of land is something that will nag at their echandee like nothing else.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by Aditya_V »

Rajesh A->
1)And how many soldiers do we lose for taking that land?
2)Is a Land grab agianst a fortified and heavy defended border easy?
3) Will pakistan be twidling its Thumbs or we will have an all out war which we are not prepared for now?
4)What about the impact on our economy?
5)And what do we with civilian population in that land ?
6)What about international pressure to withdraw?
7)What if Domestic pressure from Pakistani threat to use Nukes?

Sorry I see this is not a workable solution
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by RajeshA »

Aditya_V wrote:Rajesh A->
1)And how many soldiers do we lose for taking that land?
2)Is a Land grab agianst a fortified and heavy defended border easy?
3) Will pakistan be twidling its Thumbs or we will have an all out war which we are not prepared for now?
4)What about the impact on our economy?
5)And what do we with civilian population in that land ?
6)What about international pressure to withdraw?
7)What if Domestic pressure from Pakistani threat to use Nukes?

Sorry I see this is not a workable solution
Aditya_V ji,
I wonder if Pakistanis go through a similar list before they send their Kasabs to conduct a 26/11!

I cannot answer the above questions. How am I supposed to know how many soldiers we will lose?

Conflicts go out of hand and turn into wars, when the other side misjudges you. You touch on that in your questions. The question is which side acts and which side reacts. At the moment, when an act of terrorism takes place, the Pakistanis know that
  • India would do nothing, except stop talking for 1 year and start cutting down more trees for the dossiers, or
  • if we act aggressively, then as SSridhar ji explained, "The Pakistani LIC strategy is thus based on three pillars: escalation to conventional war; threats of a nuclear war; international intervention in its favour.".
The current status is predictable, but it is untenable. If we do nothing we lose, if we do something, it ends up turning into a full-blown war with a possible nuclear exchange, and we lose again.

The factor that is missing is predictability. If we go to war after some incidence, the Pakistanis do not know, what we are going to do, so they will throw everything at it.

We need to bring back predictability into their calculations. They should know that if a terrorist attack causes X casualties in India, then India will lay claim to

Code: Select all

(A x X + Y) x 'a factor of land-quality'
hectares of land. And India will do everything to get that piece of land, no matter what. They may have the comfort that India will not go beyond this claim.

It is the predictability of the outcome of terrorism on Pakistan which will both stay their hand in terrorist activity as well as in escalating the war where they suffer some serious damage above and beyond the loss of a piece of land.

I ask you a counter-question, if you do nothing today, wouldn't you be encouraging the ISI & Co. to explode a dirty bomb tomorrow in Mumbai or Bengaluru? What would you do then? Again nothing or would you go to a full-fledged war?

You certainly don't think that 26/11 was the last attack. As their terrorist networks in India improve, and they get more resources and training, so too would the lethality of their attacks.

Isn't predictability, indeed certainty, of commensurate punishment a better alternative to full-fledged war?

Or would you like to offer other alternatives?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by Aditya_V »

Rajesh A -> I know its not the last attack and will not be the last unless there is a Regime Change in Pak we cannot expect the attacks to stop but all this talk of taking Pakistani land is hogwash since we have a huge Paki Fifth column in our land which will never allow us to take aggresive action. eg. the father of the person who dinned and winned with DCH helping him identify targets.

Besides pin pricks and small wars will achive nothing, only with dead soldiers. Infact, I would go on to say a Brahmos decapitative strike at a Paki Army corp comander meeting would be more sucessful than any Land grab
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by RajeshA »

Aditya_V ji,

you dither between 'Helplessness' and an 'All-Out War'. This dithering is exactly the reason, why we are under attack from the Pakistanis, and we do not have any strategy how to counter it.

TSPA conducts terrorism against India for a particular reason. It solidifies their resolve, closes their ranks, puts down internal dissension, helps recruitment, washes away the memory of 1971 and allows them to boast of their chutzpah, their daring, their bravery. Of course, it also has strategic motives.

A land grab would be exactly the response, that would nullify their benefits of terrorism as a state policy.

Assassinations of the terrorists and their masters should be done only after they have lost their support and respect within the network, within the society. A land grab in Pakistan in response to their acts would make them lose their face and respect amongst the Pakistani jingos and society at large. Once that is done, justice can be brought to them and their 'loved' ones later on.

If you kill them in the heat of the battle, they become martyrs to their cause, and someone else takes their position. That is an unending cycle.

You ask me, how many soldiers would we lose for the land grab!

I ask you, why do we have an Army! If the Army is not to be used to implement a policy which leads to a decrease in terrorism in the country and helps us avoid a bigger and more costlier war, when are we going to use it?

Grabbing 'small' pieces of land is exactly the policy, that would kill the big monster, that is the H&D of TSPA. Didn't they have a policy of a thousand cuts? We need a policy of a thousand pin-pricks and land-grabs.

If you want a regime change in Pakistan, destroy the H&D of the Pakistani Army!
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by NikhilB »

RajeshA - Good thinking and it could be workable but will be impractical in our current GoI set up.

Bsedies, pakis will cry hell on international community that it was non-state actors that launched terrorist attached and it is Indian state that is reacting on land grab.
So instead of
Terrorist Attack on India by non-State paki actors -> proportionate Indian state response of land grab
I propose
Terrorist Attack on India by non-State paki actors -> Massilvely improportionate terrorist attacks in pakiland (by non state actors of "I dont know which country").

I know TSPA and paki gov dont give a damn sh!t about their own abdul dying, so above improporationate terrorist attack should be where it hurts most...and for this we need more non-state actors operating in pakiland - as much as big force when need be.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by krishnan »

http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/jun/ ... otmail.htm
A Pakistani court has reportedly ordered a ban on nine leading websites, including Google, Yahoo and Hotmail, for allegedly posting blasphemous material.

Media reports said the Bahawalpur bench of the Lahore [ Images ] high court on Tuesday directed the Pakistan Telecommunication Authority to immediately block nine websites -- including Google, Yahoo, MSN, Hotmail, YouTube, Bing and Amazon -- for publishing and promoting sacrilegious and blasphemous material.

Justice Mazher Iqbal Sidhu issued the order while hearing a petition filed by a man named Muhammad Sidiq who claimed these websites were publishing sacrilegious material.

The judge also ordered the PTA chairman to appear in court on June 28 with relevant material.

Sidiq, in his petition, sought a ban on the websites for publishing blasphemous materials and twisting facts about the Quran.

Aslam Dhakkar, head of a local bar association, was quoted as saying that the court had given a historic decision.

He said the legal fraternity in Bahawalpur will observe a strike on Wednesday to protest the publication of blasphemous material by the websites.

However, officials of the PTA told PTI that they had received no instructions to block the websites.

They said they had only seen media reports about the court's order.

Wahaj-us-Siraj, a spokesman for the Internet Service Providers Association of Pakistan, said his organisation had not received any directions from the PTA to block websites.

Pakistani authorities had blocked popular social networking website Facebook in May over a competition on blasphemous caricatures of Prophet Mohammed.

The access to the website was later restored on the orders of the court.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by RajeshA »

NikhilB wrote:Bsedies, pakis will cry hell on international community that it was non-state actors that launched terrorist attached and it is Indian state that is reacting on land grab.
The dynamic has changed somewhat in the international community. They came earlier in support of Pakistan, because of the Cold War dynamic. Secondly Pakistan and India were hyphenated earlier.

Of course, many would come forward and cry Foul, but we should just give our reasons, do it and keep repeating our reasons ad infinitum.

Secondly, the international community would appreciate a measured response instead of mindless, open-ended, attack on Pakistan.

Thirdly, most of our neighbors who play all sort of card games with us, would be put on notice and would fall in line and be extra careful that their land is not being used for terrorism against us.

As for all those Pakistan sympathizers in India, they would go mum all of a sudden.
NikhilB wrote:So instead of
Terrorist Attack on India by non-State paki actors -> proportionate Indian state response of land grab
I propose
Terrorist Attack on India by non-State paki actors -> Massilvely improportionate terrorist attacks in pakiland (by non state actors of "I dont know which country").
There are already terrorist attacks in Pakistan, and with time they too will become massive. There are already 'non-state actors' which favor this policy there, and they are welcome to go ahead with it, but there is no need for India to fall to the same level as Pakistan and have the blood of innocent Abduls on our hands.

No we need to let them know, that they are getting punished for their 'misbehavior' and we are doing it, when we do the land-grab.

A general sense of terrorism and lawlessness in Pakistan, would only motivate TSPA to raise the level of terrorism in India another notch as a means of providing cohesion and purpose to their ranks. All the current terrorism doesn't seem to hurt the H&D of TSPA much.
NikhilB wrote:I know TSPA and paki gov dont give a damn sh!t about their own abdul dying, so above improporationate terrorist attack should be where it hurts most...and for this we need more non-state actors operating in pakiland - as much as big force when need be.
You are right. TSPA doesn't care about Abdul dying. The disproportionate 'terrorist attack', you speak of, would only serve the Pakistanis in pulling us into the same muck they live and thrive in. You know what they say about pigs. Don't wrestle in the pig in the mud. You get dirty and the pig loves it. It would give them the moral blank cheque to commit more terrorism in India. The pigs who die, would be considered martyrs, and many more would come.

Land loss is where it hurts the TSPA the most, in their H&D.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by shiv »

Here is what I feel about cold start. I believe we tend to think about what cold start will do after it starts, but don't you think that after it starts, what cold start can do is no different from "slow warm up and start" given that it is the same army and same forces and same adversary.

In other words cold start has the intention of doing some things before it starts. Let me explain that.

Imagine two scenarios:
I) Paki army has no nexus with terrorists
2) Paki army itself supports terrorist action in India (this is the truth)

1) Paki army has no nexus with terrorists
(we know this is rubbish - but this is hypothetical)

In the old days of "slow start" if the Paki army would cry foul but build up defences to match India's slow start. They would be ready in days, to India's weeks

After the "cold start" doctrine Paki army still cries foul, but they can do nothing, The have to be ready within days to defend at short notice.

Now imagine what these defences would be. Since Paki forces are much closer to the border, defensive formations would be rapidly mobilized - perhaps within 4-5 days, a week at most. Leave would be cancelled, people recalled and trains and trucks garnered for transport. Fuel and ammunition would start pouring in.

Now just for fun,imagine that the Paki army got to know beforehand that India was planning a sudden surprise attack out of the blue. What would they do? Obviously - this quick mobilization would be started at once. It would be observable by Indian intel.

Having established these basic things, let me move to the current day idea of "cold start", but let us apply the second condition - i.e that there is a nexus between Paki army and terroists

2) Paki army itself supports terrorist action in India

Now if the Paki army were planning a major terrorist action against India, cold start promises an attack within 96 hours. That means that if Paki army formations got to know of the terror plans, they would have to instantly get into a state of red alert and that would be picked up by Indian intel even before the terrorist attack. The Pakis know this fully well

So Pakis will be forced either not to tell the Paki army defensive formations of the impending terror attack, leaving them no time to cancel leave and mobilize and stare at possible defeat because of that.

Or else they have to maintain red alert all the time - perhaps for weeks before a terror attack

Either way, Cold start puts Pakis into a Catch 22 situation which is
a) Either start mobilizing and send a signal that a major terror attack may be coming, or
b) Do not mobilize and face defeat and punishment if a terror attack comes.

Cold start is NOT as unchankian as people may think it is :mrgreen:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by Bhima »

I came across what looked like an educated Paki online yesterday. When the discussion turned to present Paki Muslim on Muslim violence he was left with no rebuttal other than "yes but remember you butchered Muslims in Godhra". The next time a Paki tries to use this form of logic to prove his argument shove this video up his musharraf.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by Altair »

shiv wrote:
Either way, Cold start puts Pakis into a Catch 22 situation which is
a) Either start mobilizing and send a signal that a major terror attack may be coming, or
b) Do not mobilize and face defeat and punishment if a terror attack comes.

Cold start is NOT as unchankian as people may think it is :mrgreen:
shiv
Pakistanis know fully well they cannot defend against a determined India conventionally. They will know they have to go for nuclear option sooner rather than later. So if a Pakistani General knows of an impending terrorist attack on India. He would know he cannot protect paki foot soldiers against an Indian onslaught. He would put one or two nukes on a missile and a f-16 and go for Indian targets. USAF would detect the launch as would IAF from recently acquired AWACS. What happens then?

Altair
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by ajit_tr »

Bhima wrote:I came across what looked like an educated Paki online yesterday. When the discussion turned to present Paki Muslim on Muslim violence he was left with no rebuttal other than "yes but remember you butchered Muslims in Godhra". The next time a Paki tries to use this form of logic to prove his argument shove this video up his musharraf.
I'm amazed he didn't brand the video as propaganda by indian media.Even if they are showed Jamat ali shah's dawn video or Qureshi's video saying,"india has not stolen water", it will be pooh poohed by saying -They have been bought off by Indian govt with loads of money,they are RAW agents etc. hence they are singing Indian govt.tunes.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by Anujan »

Shiv-ji

Paki strategy has always been based on the premise that India *will not* escalate. This happened in '48 when "tribal raiders" came in. In 65, during Kargil, during Parakram, and dont forget that Mumbai was *after* Parakram. The fighting strategy always seems to be based on delusion that India wont disproportionately retaliate. Recent stark example is in Kargil -- even their AF was not taken into confidence!! (apparently they did not anticipate that India will use her Air Force).

We have not yet taught them a convincing lesson about their self delusion that India wont escalate. So from a Paki commander point of view, 8 SDREs will either fold up and be defeated by a single TFTA, or they will shiver in their dhotis -- but mobilize to protect H&D or at worst if God almighty is angry that the Pakis are not pious enough and let the SDREs win as a punishment, SDREs will just give them a slap on their wrist. Yes we have cold start, but will we ever use it? Has there been any unambiguous demonstration that we will use it? After mumbai did we go for token strikes at least? How about hot pursuit?

This chunkian "Inform formation before terror attack" wont pan out. Heck they didnt even inform their own navy before Kargil! (when there was 100% chance India will blockade the port if she didnt make progress). And to reward this behavior, we will cold start mobilize and not attack!

One thing you should give them credit for is that they "innovate". In 65 they were convinced that the war was a "stalemate" and they could win. So they attacked in '71. In '71 after a kick in the musharraf, they knew they cant win a conventional war. So they tried JK & Punjab. Now that "proxy war" wasnt going anywhere -- India had successfully stalemated it. So they tried something bit above terrorism and bit below conventional war -- Kargil. Now that didnt go anywhere either, so they tried a spectacular terror attack under nuclear umbrella. That was effective (in the sense that we didnt hit back), so they tried it again and again (mumbai commuter trains, 26/11 attack). We can be 400% sure that they are "innovating" now too. We havent jacked up the price for this repeated "innovations" and always seem to reactive in plugging the mentality behind the last attack.
Last edited by Anujan on 23 Jun 2010 19:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Post by Brad Goodman »

Rudradev wrote:I've been thinking about Cold Start.

Let's say Pakistan conducts a major terrorist attack, and the go-ahead is given for Cold Start. Within days, pivot corps strike along the Punjab and Rajasthan borders and wreak havoc among the TSPA formations there, and then come back.

And even before they are back in barracks, ISI assets are mobilized in a number of Indian cities and 5-6 more major terrorist attacks take place. Even if they don't cause that much damage, thanks to heightened security in the wake of the first attack, what will India do next?
Rudradev ji excellent question and I think we need to spare some time to really chew this thing. I am not an expert like others on the forum but here is my 2 cents. Indian formations can kick pakis and still pakis can create more 26/11 type scenarios in India. That is always possible look at Israel & Palestine example for reference. The most important point is cost you are willing to pay for your actions. Example if you murder some one you can be either sent away for life in prison or to gallows so when a person kills some one (in cold blood) he is ready to pay that price. Same is true with TSPA right now they are doing things with impunity where they know that for any 26/11 they pull all they get is slap on wrist and few dossiers. Once TSPA loses some abduls for each 26/11 you have raised the stakes in the game so now they have to take that into their calculation. Same time it hurts their economy and H&D. So they have to plan more details and get an exit starategy. Same is true of India which has to factor loss of lives, escalation of war possibly nuclear etc before it can teach TSPA a lesson so finally for me it boils down to price you are willing to pay.
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