Indian Military Aviation

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 26 Jun 2010 21:53

Jagan wrote:This was the one that Singha was talking about.

Thanks Jagan.

Bala Vignesh wrote:
Vishal Jolapara wrote: Slightly Offtopic but you guys need to checkout this Spotter - http://www.flickr.com/photos/33104187@N ... 7/sizes/o/
Ok... Wow... How come bombs like that don't make an appearance in Aero India...

They do !
I got an absolutely Nuclear Warhead, if the Mods allow ? BUT, that may be too Off-Topic for some

@Ashish - Sorry Mate, i am guilty as charged

There's this photo posted on Page 17 of the french forum, dosent seem very serious but what is it all about ?
Not able to makeout much from the translation.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 26 Jun 2010 22:10

The Stealth In India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 26 Jun 2010 22:31

Where does the AMCA fit in the IAF plans? By around 2018-20, India will already have around 270 SU-30MKI, 126 MRCA, 175 LCA. The Jaguars, Mirages and Mig-27s will be ready for phase outs. We already have signed up for PAK-FA. Isn't the MCA a direct competitor to PAK-FA? Or is the IAF hedging its bet against MCA by going in for PAK-FA?

So will the IAF have around 5 types of combat aircrafts in its inventory by 2020?

SU-30MKI
MRCA
LCA
AMCA
PAK-FA

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Jun 2010 22:41

nope saarji, it's medium category. FGFA is heavy.

by 2020
270 MKI
>80 MRCA
~100 LCA

125 bison, all but 40 mig-27s on the way out with the jags, M2k and mig-29 following closely starting from 2025 roughly. PAKFA starts rolling-in in 2020 at the earliest and AMCA by 2025. by 2030 the earliest su-30MKI will start retiring.

you get the picture. AMCA is meant to replace M2k and jaguars and PAKFA/FGFA will eventually replace the MKI although it would serve alongside it for sometime.

negi · Post by **negi** » 26 Jun 2010 22:43

Oye Vishal use Nukkad man (and tag it NSFW if required).

sawant · Post by **sawant** » 26 Jun 2010 23:09

Rahul M wrote:nope saarji, it's medium category. FGFA is heavy.

by 2020
270 MKI
>80 MRCA
~100 LCA

125 bison, all but 40 mig-27s on the way out with the jags, M2k and mig-29 following closely starting from 2025 roughly. PAKFA starts rolling-in in 2020 at the earliest and AMCA by 2025. by 2030 the earliest su-30MKI will start retiring. you get the picture. AMCA is meant to replace M2k and jaguars and PAKFA/FGFA will eventually replace the MKI although it would serve alongside it for sometime.

Once the mig-27s go out I wonder who will lead the ground attack component... MRCAs only ?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 26 Jun 2010 23:15

sawant wrote: Once the mig-27s go out I wonder who will lead the ground attack component... MRCAs only ?

I don't see how the LCA is any less capable in the strike role than the Mig-27.

saurav.jha · Post by **saurav.jha** » 27 Jun 2010 00:07

sawant wrote:
Rahul M wrote:nope saarji, it's medium category. FGFA is heavy.

by 2020
270 MKI
>80 MRCA
~100 LCA

125 bison, all but 40 mig-27s on the way out with the jags, M2k and mig-29 following closely starting from 2025 roughly. PAKFA starts rolling-in in 2020 at the earliest and AMCA by 2025. by 2030 the earliest su-30MKI will start retiring. you get the picture. AMCA is meant to replace M2k and jaguars and PAKFA/FGFA will eventually replace the MKI although it would serve alongside it for sometime.
Once the mig-27s go out I wonder who will lead the ground attack component... MRCAs only ?

Thats why they are being procured..to be jack of all trades..
Although i would love Su-34 to replace these..

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 27 Jun 2010 01:16

nachiket wrote:
sawant wrote: Once the mig-27s go out I wonder who will lead the ground attack component... MRCAs only ?
I don't see how the LCA is any less capable in the strike role than the Mig-27.

Mig 27 is an excellent bird for CAS, has good armor plating near its cockpit area, more optimized for low level runs. Typically soviet aircraft could take considerable punishment (Su 7 comes to mind which saw action in 71).

If its precision drops only then LCA can be bought in, otherwise i am not sure how good it will be in low-low profile.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Jun 2010 03:34

Sid wrote: Mig 27 is an excellent bird for CAS, has good armor plating near its cockpit area, more optimized for low level runs. Typically soviet aircraft could take considerable punishment (Su 7 comes to mind which saw action in 71).

If its precision drops only then LCA can be bought in, otherwise i am not sure how good it will be in low-low profile.

THAT is the point. Is it not that we are expected to move on? Move on to things like LGBs, GPS enabled, CM, etc munition? Or are we still in the low level run era?

In fact the newer air crafts are expected to conduct a war at a totally different plane, such as crack networks, use AESA to fry electronics, etc.

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 27 Jun 2010 06:42

With increasing sophisticated artillery capability, both in terms of guided munitions and missile, as well as increased holdings of armed helicopters mud movers like the MiG-27 are increasingly irrelevant. Furthermore, given the proliferation of MANPADs its foolhardy use fixed wing aircraft in the CAS role. Much more efficient to employ the IAF in taking on command centres, transport nodes, infrastructure, etc.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jun 2010 08:35

even in 1991 the iraqi airbase defences put up quite a threat to raf tornadoes attempting low level JP233 runway denial bombing runs.

except against unprotected infantry or vehicular columns, the old approach of low level runs and cluster bombs is fraught with danger. one never really knows
when a tarpaulin will be rolled back and a high quality MANPAD streak out.

I figure a gliding set of wings and some form of guidance is essential now for all munitions to avoid the AA/Manpad bubble. the Swedish have the Mjoelnir
weapon wherein a gripen goes in low and fast but upto 8km away from the real target and this gliding weapon does the final leg in lateral movement also.

http://www.vectorsite.net/twbomb_06.html

The BK-90 is intended to be released at high speed and low altitude. Essentially it allows a strike aircraft to "toss" the weapon onto a target, with the weapon using INS navigation and terrain-following radar to navigate into the target area. It can be also released from high altitude for more standoff range, and has an optional GPS-INS capability for such long range attacks. Toss range at low altitude is up to about 8 kilometers (5 miles), while the range at high altitude is up to 22 kilometers (14 miles).

Once over the target, the BK-90 blasts its submunitions out of the ejector tubes, with the submunitions deploying small chutes to stabilize their descent. The dispersal pattern is up to about 250 by 400 meters (800 by 1,300 feet). There are two types of submunitions:

* The 4 kilogram (8.8 pound) MJ1 air-bursting fragmentation submunition for attacks on soft targets.

* The 18 kilogram (40 pound) MJ2 anti-armor submunition.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 27 Jun 2010 08:41

X-post from LCA thread

Ski-jump take-off for light combat aircraft Tejas

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 27 Jun 2010 10:56

I know we don't have the kind of drone-power that the us has but doesnt it make more sense to send armed drones in first ahead of manned fighters on the first day of battle to take out fixed targets like runways and ATCs and the like? Even if we lose a few, we'd still not lose pilots.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jun 2010 11:39

armed drones of the harop type are far from being able to sortie from 1000km away, fly at 1000kmph and deliver 6000lb of ordnance.

even the "bird of prey" type ucav gizmos seen in prototype form can at best lob a few SDB(250lb) before running back home.

there is no replacement for a F-solah type strike - yet.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 27 Jun 2010 12:06

Thanks! I suppose that is still a fanboy dream for now until more work is done on that front.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 27 Jun 2010 21:24

NRao wrote:
Sid wrote: Mig 27 is an excellent bird for CAS, has good armor plating near its cockpit area, more optimized for low level runs. Typically soviet aircraft could take considerable punishment (Su 7 comes to mind which saw action in 71).

If its precision drops only then LCA can be bought in, otherwise i am not sure how good it will be in low-low profile.
THAT is the point. Is it not that we are expected to move on? Move on to things like LGBs, GPS enabled, CM, etc munition? Or are we still in the low level run era?

In fact the newer air crafts are expected to conduct a war at a totally different plane, such as crack networks, use AESA to fry electronics, etc.

well that is good to have feature (high high profile) for CAS given u have either achieved complete air-dominance, or you have the technological advantage (jammers) and know how to defeat today's modern air-defense network (proliferation of which is rampant in the form of S-300, HQ9, etc in our neighborhood).

and even if we have that low-low profile will still be needed in the initial phase of operations to open a safe air-corridor for IAF to deliver decisive punch.

Even the super-duper power USAF performs SEAD mission in the beginning of every war to open a safe corridor (usually they use AH-64).

Since we don't have the sophistication or level USAF has (which we might take another 2-3 decades to reach) IAF will keep on innovating using tactics.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Jun 2010 23:02

Sid wrote: Since we don't have the sophistication or level USAF has (which we might take another 2-3 decades to reach) IAF will keep on innovating using tactics.

India vs. the US is relative, however, 2-3 decades? Might as well go back to sleep.

IAF is slow, perhaps, but has woken up for sure. I think - from open source - they have a vision that has to catch up with the country's GDP. No two ways about that. One way or another India can never lag behind in such matters. Extrapolation is fine, but in this case we need to be more sensitive to what is happening outside defmin.

I would say that India will need to become leading edge in about 5-10 years. Now, "leading edge" does NOT mean = US. Just means that India will be more than able to take care of business in the 'hood.

well that is good to have feature (high high profile) for CAS given u have either achieved complete air-dominance, or you have the technological advantage (jammers) and know how to defeat today's modern air-defense network (proliferation of which is rampant in the form of S-300, HQ9, etc in our neighborhood).

and even if we have that low-low profile will still be needed in the initial phase of operations to open a safe air-corridor for IAF to deliver decisive punch.

Even the super-duper power USAF performs SEAD mission in the beginning of every war to open a safe corridor (usually they use AH-64).

Hmmmmmm.............

1990s to 2005 thinking. Technology has moved on. To accommodate PC wars!!!! In saturated urban areas. Individual shells can be deactivated just prior to impact!!!!!

However, like I said, Indian needs are different and there is a rapid move to accommodate changes in the 'hood. What the US does (and also the Russians with THEIR PAK-FA) is fine - no quarrel with any of that. But a lot of that does not really fly with India. Expect the MRCA and the FGFA to gravitate towards what Indian needs are. Granted there are some common overlaps - air tankers, etc.

(Just BTW, what SEAD asset is being used in the A'stan war?)

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 28 Jun 2010 00:22

NRao wrote:
India vs. the US is relative, however, 2-3 decades? Might as well go back to sleep.

i saw that Hellfire coming

but i would stick to my forecast even though jingo in my heart wants to believe in what you are saying

NRao wrote: However, like I said, Indian needs are different and there is a rapid move to accommodate changes in the 'hood. What the US does (and also the Russians with THEIR PAK-FA) is fine - no quarrel with any of that. But a lot of that does not really fly with India. Expect the MRCA and the FGFA to gravitate towards what Indian needs are. Granted there are some common overlaps - air tankers, etc.

(Just BTW, what SEAD asset is being used in the A'stan war?)

Rao ji, Afg war is no conventional war that IAF will never face with Porkies or Chinks (god forbid if any of these ever happen). Perhaps its the best example why a conventional army should never fight a un-conventional force

Although IAF has acquired standoff weapons and every pilot would like to drop bombs from 40,000+ ft behind the safety of heavenly clouds but is that so simple? What we have seen is last 4-5 major conflicts is that opposing force achieve a full air-superiority in the first few days of war with massive superiority over its opponent.

In case of IAF, this might not be the case as the foes are almost equally equipped. A high flying IAF jet will lit of entire enemy air-defense in no time. With AWACS, now finding gaps in air-defense is even more difficult.

Hence my conclusion that for deep interdiction IAF will still rely on low level runs just to avoid detection until the last moment.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 28 Jun 2010 19:57

IAF planning to deploy radars along mountainous frontiers.

To prevent the kind of air space violations done by Chinese helicopters in Jammu and Kashmir last year, the Indian Air Force is planning to deploy radars along its mountainous frontiers in northern and eastern parts of the country.

"To track and check enemy aircraft and helicopters flying near our borders, we are planning to deploy air defence surveillance radars in mountainous regions along the northern and eastern borders," IAF officials told PTI here.

Two Chinese Mi-17 helicopters had entered the Indian air space last year in the Leh area of north Jammu and Kashmir along Damchok area and Trig Heights in Ladakh and air dropped
cans containing frozen pork and brinjal.

At present, infrastructure in these regions is not adequate to keep a constant watch on kind of incursions carried out by the Chinese and that is why more radars would be procured and deployed in mountainous terrain, they said.

The radars, officials said, would operate at heights above 4,500 metres and be capable of performing in extreme cold weather conditions experienced in high altitude regions.

These radars would be able to track targets including large, medium and small fixed wing aircraft, helicopters and Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAV) automatically, they said.

IAF has plans to connect these radars with its Integrated Command and Control system, which will help it to direct its fighters and other aircraft in case any intrusion is detected.

Prior to the Kargil war also, Pakistani choppers had also reportedly flown over Indian air space to help its army infiltrate and set up strong bases well within Indian territory without being detected.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 28 Jun 2010 21:38

Vipul wrote:IAF planning to deploy radars along mountainous frontiers.

Rajendra (and/or Akash)? To track (and shoot if deemed necessary) Chinese aircraft

?

Cheers....

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Jun 2010 21:52

most like the 3D CAR 150km range radar of akash system.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 Jun 2010 21:56

people have already forgotten bharani ?
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 37#p622037

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 29 Jun 2010 07:41

Intermediate Jet Trainer Awaits Spin Test
Aviation Week

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 29 Jun 2010 07:42

Alenia Estimates Indian Airlift Needs
Aviation Week

Alenia Estimates Indian Airlift Needs
June 28, 2010
By Neelam Mathews
NEW DELHI

India will need more than 50 medium-sized transport planes in the medium-term, given its diverse border, homeland security and humanitarian needs, Alenia Aeronautica estimates.

“India has a lot of hot borders,” says Paolo Girasole, head of Alenia parent company Finmeccanica in India, referring to airlifters required in the remote areas of eastern India occupied by local insurgents, the Naxals.

The Company has Responded to a Request for Proposals for Two Medium Transport Planes, for which it has offered its C-27J Spartan for the Border Security Force. Trials were held Last July in Leh and Bengaluru.

A Request for Information is Out From the Indian Air Force for 16 Medium Airlifters, Roberto Leva, director of Alenia Aeronautica in India, tells Aviation Week.

The Philippines and Malaysia also have shown and interest in procuring the aircraft.

The C-27J is an advanced derivative of Alenia’s G-222 (C-27A Spartan in U.S. service), with the engines and systems of Lockheed Martin’s C-130J. “It has the same engine and avionics,” Leva adds. “That would mean a lot of savings by way of operational costs, maintenance, test and ground support equipment and training.”

India’s air force has shown concern at the mixed models the force has, expressing a need for commonality to bring in economies of scale. The C-27J has the same floor strength as the C-130J, making it easy to transfer standard-sized 463-L pallets from one aircraft to another.

Leva is unconcerned about any clearances required for India by the U.S. government. He points out that no country they have supplied the C-27J to has been refused. “We can do any software modification. Our system is open,” he adds.

Alenia has involved Indian companies in the design and engineering of the new production line for manuals and tooling.

In 2007, the C-27J Spartan won a bid for the Joint Cargo Aircraft for the U.S. armed forces. Under the contract, 78 C-27J Spartans are to be delivered to the U.S. Army and Air Force by 2013. Five have been delivered so far.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 29 Jun 2010 15:30

I am just not sure which thread to place this news item in.

Govt abandons Tawang airport plan

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 29 Jun 2010 17:44

IAF approaches Delhi HC to recover Rs 54 lakh from Deve Gowda

"It is mentioned that Chandrashekhar, P V Narasimha Rao, H D Deve Gowda and V C Shukla had availed airlift facilities of IAF for non-official purposes during their tenure as Prime Ministers and Cabinet Minister," IAF had said in an RTI reply in 2008.

According to IAF, it has to recover dues of about Rs 5.91 crore from Chandrashekhar, Rs 54.61 lakh from Deve Gowda and Rs 4.60 lakh from former Union Minister V C Shukla. It had said the amount was due from their "political parties".

"A case for recovery of outstanding amount against former Prime Minister H D Devegowda for his non-official use of IAF aircraft during his tenure as PM is pending in the court of Registrar, High Court of Delhi. The case is at an admission stage. The next date of hearing in July 1, 2010," the IAF said in the RTI reply dated June 23, 2010 on the issue.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Jun 2010 23:18

Juggi G wrote:
<SNIP>

A Request for Information is Out From the Indian Air Force for 16 Medium Airlifters[/color][/b], Roberto Leva, director of Alenia Aeronautica in India, tells Aviation Week.

<SNIP>

India’s air force has shown concern at the mixed models the force has, expressing a need for commonality to bring in economies of scale. The C-27J has the same floor strength as the C-130J, making it easy to transfer standard-sized 463-L pallets from one aircraft to another.

<SNIP>

This ties in with my hypothesis of staggered airlift requirement and the need to fill in the gap between IL-76 and AN-32 - although the payload at ~12,000Kgs is not that high compared to AN-32. Interestingly, one CIS State has replaced its AN-26 with C-27J.

But does anyone has idea on the RFI for medium airlift a/c? Was it sent to LM for C-130J? Let us hope more C-130J make it to the IAF Service...that is a real wonderful aircraft.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 01 Jul 2010 02:34

Cross posting from LCH and other Helicopter thread

HAL confronts Snecma in light helicopter project

The Light Utility Helicopter (LuH), which Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is designing for the Indian military, has encountered turbulence even before leaving the drawing board. French engine-maker Turbomeca, whose vaunted Shakti engine was to power the LuH, is demanding what Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources term “extortionist prices” for integrating the Shakti with the LuH.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jul 2010 06:47

seems to be a common trend . invite someone, give him chances to excel, share meals with them, help them financially - and they turn around and s*** in your yard and try to take your wife.

perhaps its time to go with allied-signal engine route with the LUH to cut turbomeca down to size?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 Jul 2010 07:58

^^^ Really amazing from 190 crores to 100 crores to further revisions. Pehle kitne ka choona laga rahe the!!!

But I love HAL's stand. And 2 years ahead of schedule on the LUH! Good going!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Jul 2010 08:46

VinodTK wrote:Cross posting from LCH and other Helicopter thread

HAL confronts Snecma in light helicopter project

The key:

Reliable MoD sources tell Business Standard that Turbomeca is now negotiating with HAL to compromise on a price for the Shakti. The French company has offered to reduce the cost by Rs 90 crore, provided that the amount is adjusted against its offset liability. But HAL rejected that offer last week, telling Turbomeca that even Rs 100 crore is too high a price. Turbomeca is now preparing a fresh proposal.

So the Rs 90 crore was the cost of offsets folks. Make India pay for the offset too.

Oh, why not? there should be umpteen middle MEN and other venues wheres the funds disappear or sure.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 02 Jul 2010 09:36

This link has another picture of the new C-130J in IAF colours..looks good !

registration KC-3801
article link with C-130J pics

By Craig Hoyle

The Indian air force’s first C-130J tactical transport has emerged from the paint shop at Lockheed Martin’s Marietta plant in Georgia, roughly six months before its scheduled delivery.

“The aircraft now enters flight test in preparation for delivery at the end of the year,” Lockheed says.

India’s first of six stretched-fuselage C-130J-30s currently on order, the lead aircraft is shown carrying the registration KC-3801.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 02 Jul 2010 16:26

Govt Orders Radar to Track Movement in Thick Forests
The Indian Express

Manu Pubby
Posted online: Fri July 02 2010, 09:26 hrs

New Delhi : Up against the daunting task of tracking Maoists in dense forests with no suitable technology available in the global market, the government has directed the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to develop a foliage-penetration radar that can track movements, camps and even landmines located under thick vegetation.

With radars and technology demonstrators from across the globe failing several rounds of trials, DRDO is working on a three-month deadline to acquire its first technology demonstrator radar from a European firm that would be co-developed and tweaked for Indian conditions. The radar would be fitted on board an Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) and will undergo significant software upgrades to be able to track down movements in thick jungles.

Sources said the first CARABAS ground imaging system, developed by Swedish firm Saab, would be delivered within the next three months and engineers from the two countries will work together to integrate it on board the Indian helicopter.

Indian scientists, sources said, would work on tweaking the radar that is currently being operated from fixed-wing aircraft by Sweden. A DRDO team will be visiting testing facilities in Sweden in August to observe the technology in action and carry out integration tests on the system.

The move comes after several radars and systems, demonstrated to Indian authorities for ground imaging in densely forested areas in recent months, failed to cut the grade. Indian authorities have tested British, Israeli and American systems in the past few months but results have been discouraging.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jul 2010 17:47

glad to know people have been hard at work and already doing trials.
http://www.saabgroup.com/Air/Sensor-Sys ... s/CARABAS/

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 02 Jul 2010 18:07

^^ 5-6 Meters for the IED detection range for CARABAS... Wish they DID NOT identify the range, coz this might help these ba$t@rd$ place a more bigger IED and plant it further below the 5-6 meters... (roughly 16.5 to 20 feet which is very good for a radar detection through THICK FOILAGE and a TARMAC road..)

Hopefully they DEVELOP this radar to it's FULL potential, and NOT just use it to map IED's (they should employ Jamming and Remote detonating technices in these as well) so to avoid having the IED's blown up when the Bomb disposal teams go to disarm them....
To many potential capabilites with these radars, IF EXPOLOITED correctly... HOPEFULLY SAAB will provide FULL access to their source codes, so Indian Engineers can tweak it to it's maximum potential.. Hopefully they can reduce the weight of from 150 KG to 75 KG for Helis and from 50 to about 25Kg on the UAV's...

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 02 Jul 2010 21:08

Singha wrote:glad to know people have been hard at work and already doing trials.
http://www.saabgroup.com/Air/Sensor-Sys ... s/CARABAS/

if such kind of RADARs are out there why NATO aint using it against talibunnies? In afgan they are having max casualties from such IEDs.

hope it works for us

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jul 2010 21:14

I suppose it could also have helped locate YSRs crashed helicopter and one iaf mig21 that vanished over arunachal and found months later by villagers.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Jul 2010 22:19

"Never too late" - nara of GoI.

"IDE" was first uttered in India around 1990 IIRC.

johnny_m · Post by **johnny_m** » 04 Jul 2010 02:15

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/07/fl ... Defence%29

Now IAF wants UCAVs