Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

amol.p · Post by **amol.p** » 02 Jul 2010 14:24

1.3 million unemployed won't get benefits restored

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... wD9GM90T84

National debt soars to highest level since WWII

http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... nce-wwii/1

Why The Greater Depression Still Lies Ahead

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e25855.htm

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jul 2010 20:49

but inspite of this people are willing to spend $500 on a new iphone when they already have a old iphone.

people seem to be quite secure in their lives and unaware of macro issues.

Ameet · Post by **Ameet** » 03 Jul 2010 06:41

Schwarzenegger slashes CA state workers pay to minimum wage

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100702/ap_ ... nimum_wage

A state appellate court on Friday sided with the Schwarzenegger administration in its attempt to temporarily impose the federal minimum wage on tens of thousands of state workers.

It was not immediately clear how the ruling would affect Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's order a day earlier to pay 200,000 state workers the federal minimum of $7.25 an hour as the state wrestles with a budget crisis.

The state controller, who cuts state paychecks, has refused to comply with the order.

The Republican governor issued the order this week on the first day of the new fiscal year because the state remains without a budget, as lawmakers remain far apart on ways to close California's $19 billion deficit.

Workers will receive full back pay once a budget is passed.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 03 Jul 2010 07:24

prad wrote:Ron Paul's "audit the FED" bill has failed. all republicans and 23 democrats voted for it. but the mainstream democrats all voted against it.

for the so called party of middle class and main street, this surely is a proud reputation on their resumes.

This is a good thing, the Fed needs total immunity from the public opinion and vast powers to do what it needs to do.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Jul 2010 07:30

I believe a move to audit the gold holdings in fort knox also failed to muster support.

aqkhan · Post by **aqkhan** » 03 Jul 2010 09:28

Carl_T wrote:
prad wrote:Ron Paul's "audit the FED" bill has failed. all republicans and 23 democrats voted for it. but the mainstream democrats all voted against it.

for the so called party of middle class and main street, this surely is a proud reputation on their resumes.
This is a good thing, the Fed needs total immunity from the public opinion and vast powers to do what it needs to do.

Things like bankrupting US eventually leading to hyperinflation and currency devaluation?

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 03 Jul 2010 09:42

Or be audited by people funded by banks?

aqkhan · Post by **aqkhan** » 03 Jul 2010 09:54

Whats wrong in being audited by a regulatory authority like comptroller general (GAO)?

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 03 Jul 2010 09:59

You don't think regulators can be "influenced"?

aqkhan · Post by **aqkhan** » 03 Jul 2010 10:01

Show me a case when GAO has manipulated results.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 03 Jul 2010 10:26

First of all, what exactly qualifies the GAO to be overseeing monetary policy decisions made by the Fed?

aqkhan · Post by **aqkhan** » 03 Jul 2010 10:42

You're deflecting the issue. Show me a case where GAO has manipulated results.

They are Government Accountability Office and the Fed should be a part of the government

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 03 Jul 2010 10:48

Show me what makes them qualified to audit decisions on monetary policy.

Oh, and since you brought it up, is the GAO answerable to Congress? If a regulatory body is answerable to Congress then it is open to influence from the same quarters, and if it is not answerable to Congress, then it is in the exact same situation as the Fed itself.

Telling the GAO to audit the Fed is simply increasing the size of the Fed.

Also explain how auditing the Fed would have prevented "bankrupting the US leading to hyperinflation"? hyperinflation!?!?

aqkhan · Post by **aqkhan** » 03 Jul 2010 10:52

GAO is not answerable to congress. Its a regulatory authority. Thats like saying SEC is answerable to the stock markets!

Its not increasing the size of the fed. its making them accountable. public audit reports would've pressured the govt to abandon medicare/medicaid bill signed by the obama administration citing increasing deficits, cut war expenditure and ensure that the country doesn't keep printing money.

By the way, I still haven't got any proof that GAO can be influenced, so I take it you abandon that claim.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 03 Jul 2010 11:01

What I'm trying to get you to understand is that you're putting one agency that is not answerable to Congress, and getting it audited by an agency that is also not answerable to Congress and expecting it to "audit" the Fed - do tell me how that would improve the performance of the Fed. Accountable to whom exactly if neither agency is answerable to Congress?

You haven't really told me how auditing the fed would have stopped the "US from becoming bankrupt and hyperinflationary" etc. I guess you abandon that claim then.

aqkhan · Post by **aqkhan** » 03 Jul 2010 11:02

The GAO publishes its results. That is the difference. I don't suppose you're from the US or have lived here, otherwise I wouldn't have to explain this to you.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 03 Jul 2010 11:05

Do tell me how that would have prevented bankrupcy/hyperinflation/hellfire and damnation etc. Most people were happily applauding what the Fed was doing a few years back. Hindsight is great though.

aqkhan · Post by **aqkhan** » 03 Jul 2010 11:17

Carl_T wrote: You haven't really told me how auditing the fed would have stopped the "US from becoming bankrupt and hyperinflationary" etc. I guess you abandon that claim then.

LOL

aqkhan wrote:public audit reports would've pressured the govt to abandon medicare/medicaid bill signed by the obama administration citing increasing deficits, cut war expenditure and ensure that the country doesn't keep printing money.

By the way, I still haven't got any proof that GAO can be influenced, so I take it you abandon that claim.

By the way, I think you're looking at this from an Indian perspective. GAO being "influenced" etc. Fear of impeachment has always made the GAO provide excellent audit results of Federal spending. This is not India's Comptroller General we're talking about.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 03 Jul 2010 11:32

Carl_T wrote:Or be audited by people funded by banks?

The Fed is owned by banks ... the auditors should ideally represent the people.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 03 Jul 2010 12:00

Carl_T wrote:This is a good thing, the Fed needs total immunity from the public opinion and vast powers to do what it needs to do.

You mean so that it can behave like a "benevolent dictator"?
Can you show me some other precedent elsewhere in the world where this "benevolent dictator" idea works? Because if this total lack of accountability by the Fed is such a good thing, then maybe you need to propose it for all other institutions and authorities too.

This idea of Kilaphat-i-Fed is like the stereotypical utopia concept - "yes, things are bad, but that's because you didn't let the Fed do all it wanted! if you'll only give Fed even more power, then that's when the bad times will go away!"

Your free-handed friend Chairman Greenspan didn't seem to be able to stop the bad times from coming, and he was using his free hand to keep those rates down, and inflate the bubble.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 03 Jul 2010 21:34

Where was this criticism 4 years back? Everyone was cheering the Fed then. After shit happens everyone becomes an expert...audit the Fed!

As for "auditors representing people" I think normal people should have little or no say in the decisions of the Fed. Congress represents people, and do tell me why they repealed Glass-Steagal hain?

I'm still waiting for something to back up the claim that "auditing the fed would have prevented financial disaster yada yada".

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 03 Jul 2010 21:53

You got it ass backwards. The Federal Reserve is the creation of a private banking cartel. So there is no so called independance.

Their job is to set these banks up as beneficiaries by skimming money from the people by giving banks first access to capital and inflating it down the pyramid. When that does not work as in the present scenario, their job is to transfer the bank's losses onto the taxpayers and rig the markets to favor these banks.

Its stupid to let a cartel set up by bankers run amuck gaming and looting the system under the guise of secrecy which is really what the word 'independance' means. That's the reason they insist on secrecy and don't want the public to know where their money is going.

Those who sit on the federal reserve do not have any great intellect or foresight about the economy. Its absurd that some king at the top gets to set the inteterest rate of all goods and services in the economy when he obviously would not know what the market price of bananas should be let alone anything else.

The market should set interest rates not these clowns. The audit is the first step in exposing them as an organization masquerading as experts on the economy when they are really just experts at bullsh&tting and counterfeiting money.

aqkhan · Post by **aqkhan** » 03 Jul 2010 21:55

Either this guy Carl_T clearly doesn't know what he's talking about or is just bullshitting to keep the argument going. I've already given the reasons, he keeps repeating his question again and again.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 03 Jul 2010 22:03

I'm sure he does know.

After examining the issue, I've come to realise that economics, at least the type practiced by the central bankers up top is a pseudo science. All efforts are made to complicate the system as much as possible while ensuring a select group of beneficiaries get to profit at all times. The housing blow up may be the best thing that happened in that it makes it blatantly obvious who's looting the system. The federal reserve traditional means of transferring losses onto the public through inflating is not working as debts are way too big to be inflated away. So any means of transferring those losses has to be very blantant - i.e. moving those losses directly onto the government and taxing people to pay for it.

Maximum secrecy is needed as this looting gets underway otherwise the federal reserve will be further exposed as agents of the banks.

aqkhan · Post by **aqkhan** » 03 Jul 2010 22:10

Banks did not profit from the financial crash of 2007. About 100 big banks collapsed, and about a 100 more are expected to go into serious trouble this year. Banks won't commit suicide themselves. This policy of playing the blame game is pretty ****** stupid. I believe the keynesian macroeconomics theory is incorrect and the flaws were not apparent until they got magnified. The underlying principle behind Keynesian economics and profiting from equity and derivatives was the serious underestimation of risk and an inherent assumption that the economy will keep on growing and house prices will never fall by a big margin. That brought investment banks to its knees. That coupled with a huge trade deficit compounded the problem to the extent that the whole global economy is in danger of collapse.

The Fed in panic took the decision to pump trillions of dollars, to save it. The fed shouldn't had the power to do that. They are playing with the whole nation's money. That is clearly why an audit is required so that taxpayers don't get ripped off by the Fed.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 03 Jul 2010 22:11

I'm still looking for this aqkhan to show me how "auditing the Fed" would have prevented financial armageddon. Is it the Fed's fault that credit rating agencies were giving BJs to the banks while rating their securities? Is it the Fed's responsibility to ensure that banks manage their own risk and control leverage? Or did the Fed repeal Glass-Steagall?

Again, where was this criticism of the Fed's policies 4-5 years back? Hindsight makes everyone an expert.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 04 Jul 2010 01:30

Central banking con artistry has been recognized and critisized since the days of Andrew Jackson. This is not something that people have woken up to in the past couple of years. The whole reason for secrecy aka independance is to keep the public ignorant about how they are being looted.

The federal reserve is the extension of the private banking cartel. They kept rates low because banks wanted them to keep rates low while fraud perpetuated through the system and they profited.

My point is that the federal reserve needs to be done away with as it represents the interest of a select few elite at the top at the expense of the rest of productive society. Banking & financing crap is not the productive real economy. Its just a middle man industry gaming the system, gambling with people's money and skimming a good deal of it.

Banks did not profit from the financial crash of 2007. About 100 big banks collapsed, and about a 100 more are expected to go into serious trouble this year. Banks won't commit suicide themselves.

Obviously they did not profit from the crash - with the exception of Goldman Sachs which got taxpayers to give them 100 cents on the dollar from AIG. But they did profit from the activities that led to the crash. CEOs of banks like Chuck Prince of Citigroup were too busy collecting bonuses and large salaries to worry about long term implications. Now the main task at hand is how to transfer these massive losses onto the backs of suckers down the line.

I do believe the federal reserve will vanish in the next 5 years once an even larger segment of the population becomes aware of their scam artistry. Hence the obsession with secrecy aka independance. Whenever you hear the word independance of the federal reserve...etc. just substitute in the word secrecy in place of independance and it will make complete sense.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 04 Jul 2010 01:37

interesting documentary made well before the 2008 crash.

amazing how many accurate predictions it makes without hindsight of the crash.

---

Fiat Empire

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 9531&hl=en#

This documentary with RON PAUL, G. EDWARD GRIFFIN, EDWIN VIEIRA and TED BAEHR is an excellent primer for the citizen who wants to get an understanding of how money is created and why the U.S. government is in partnership with the elite banks.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 04 Jul 2010 05:14

Carl_T wrote:Where was this criticism 4 years back? Everyone was cheering the Fed then. After shit happens everyone becomes an expert...audit the Fed!

As for "auditors representing people" I think normal people should have little or no say in the decisions of the Fed. Congress represents people, and do tell me why they repealed Glass-Steagal hain?

I'm still waiting for something to back up the claim that "auditing the fed would have prevented financial disaster yada yada".

It was the US Congress who created the Fed, just as they are the ones who broke the Glass-Steigall firewall.

Auditing the Fed was proposed in connection with their shady bailouts of big banks, to bring the details of these backroom deals to light.

It's the markets who represent the people, but Fed represents the bankers - it's simply the front for a banking cartel.
They are an unaccountable policymaking entity that rigs markets.

aqkhan · Post by **aqkhan** » 04 Jul 2010 08:32

Neshant wrote:Central banking con artistry has been recognized and critisized since the days of Andrew Jackson. This is not something that people have woken up to in the past couple of years. The whole reason for secrecy aka independance is to keep the public ignorant about how they are being looted.

The federal reserve is the extension of the private banking cartel. They kept rates low because banks wanted them to keep rates low while fraud perpetuated through the system and they profited.

The whole reason for secrecy is that the Fiat system was invented to impose a hidden inflation tax on people without them knowing it, and to take full advantage of the dollar as the world currency to exploit emerging markets and resource rich nations. Nations that were resource rich but unstable were propped up by setting puppet governments who had no choice but to accept back breaking loans from IMF/World Bank, knowing that they would eventually default because obviously they didn't have the economy to pay the loans back. When that happened, resources were looted from these countries at marginal prices. A clear example is Middle East and South America which was resource rich in oil. Now that resources are found in Afghanistan and Central Asia, US has established bases in Central Asia too. I would not be surprised if the Riots in Kyrgyzstan were instigated by CIA and its cronies to destabilize Central Asia to further establish US foothold in the region.

Neshant wrote: My point is that the federal reserve needs to be done away with as it represents the interest of a select few elite at the top at the expense of the rest of productive society. Banking & financing crap is not the productive real economy. Its just a middle man industry gaming the system, gambling with people's money and skimming a good deal of it.

The federal reserve cannot be done away with if Fiat money is used around the world. Going back to gold standard or a new monetary policy will very well plunge the entire world into chaos. In the short term, the only way to minimize losses is by auditing the Fed.

Neshant wrote:
Banks did not profit from the financial crash of 2007. About 100 big banks collapsed, and about a 100 more are expected to go into serious trouble this year. Banks won't commit suicide themselves.
Obviously they did not profit from the crash - with the exception of Goldman Sachs which got taxpayers to give them 100 cents on the dollar from AIG. But they did profit from the activities that led to the crash. CEOs of banks like Chuck Prince of Citigroup were too busy collecting bonuses and large salaries to worry about long term implications. Now the main task at hand is how to transfer these massive losses onto the backs of suckers down the line.

Well, banks like Goldman Sachs who were shorting the housing markets profited immensely. Banks who assumed that Real estate will never fall beyond a certain limit failed like Bear Sterns and Merill Lynch. You cannot blame them for profiting if the system allows it. You have to change the system. The whole idea of creating money based on derivatives and equity is flawed. We need a much stricter version of Glass-Steigall to regulate wall street.

Neshant wrote:I do believe the federal reserve will vanish in the next 5 years once an even larger segment of the population becomes aware of their scam artistry. Hence the obsession with secrecy aka independance. Whenever you hear the word independance of the federal reserve...etc. just substitute in the word secrecy in place of independance and it will make complete sense.

Anything can happen. If Fed vanishes from around the world, that will be a dawn of new age, albeit at the expense of chaos, severe losses of gargantuan proportions.

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 05 Jul 2010 01:56

How to Make an American Job Before It's Too Late: Andy Grove

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 05 Jul 2010 08:47

Paul Krugman and Niall Ferguson debate the economic future of the global economy

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/podcas ... .07.04.cnn

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Jul 2010 14:24

andrew grove calls for a full scale protectionism and trade war to create manufacturing jobs in usa
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-0 ... grove.html

girish.r · Post by **girish.r** » 05 Jul 2010 15:00

From Bloomberg....
Signs of Overheating......

China Car Sales Grow at Slower Pace; Services Index Slides to 15-Month Low

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-0 ... oling.html

aqkhan · Post by **aqkhan** » 05 Jul 2010 23:28

Protectionist mindset? LOL

What are they going to protect? Macy's and Sears?

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 06 Jul 2010 05:37

But will US protectionist shots be fired in a non-biased way? There are plenty of smaller US-allied countries dependent upon creating jobs from outsourcing. Will the US create exemptions for them? If so, then who will get exempted, and who will fall by the wayside?

What's to prevent all other countries from playing the same game? Why shouldn't they come up with measures that are similar, or even go beyond these?

There are some historic rivals, like Russia, who for various reasons aren't able to create a vibrant free-market economy. A US return to protectionism could shatter US alliances, and vindicate those who have always opposed free market economics in favour of command economy.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 06 Jul 2010 05:41

aqkhan wrote: The federal reserve cannot be done away with if Fiat money is used around the world. Going back to gold standard or a new monetary policy will very well plunge the entire world into chaos. In the short term, the only way to minimize losses is by auditing the Fed.

Sure it can be done away with. The alternative is this fiat ponzi scheme that is headed for total collapse. In fact the economy operated just fine without the federal reserve before it came into existance.

The best way would be to introduce gold as a competing currency for transaction. Pretty soon people will realise what holds value and what is just paper that's being watered down continually. And then the fed can be done away with.

Anyway I expect the federal reserve will not relent and the system is locked in for a collapse. Along the way all attempts will be made to transfer the maximum amount of losses from the failed speculators known as banks & financial companies, house flippers..etc. onto the backs of the productive. Only after this collapse can the gold standard be reinstituted. I'm sure many charlatans, bankers and other con artists who caused the collapse will quickly re-invent themselves as reformers and try to setup another ponzi system in the post-crash environment. So great care should be exercised during the post-crash transition period so they don't hijack the process.

aqkhan · Post by **aqkhan** » 06 Jul 2010 06:05

Neshant wrote:
aqkhan wrote: The federal reserve cannot be done away with if Fiat money is used around the world. Going back to gold standard or a new monetary policy will very well plunge the entire world into chaos. In the short term, the only way to minimize losses is by auditing the Fed.
Sure it can be done away with. The alternative is this fiat ponzi scheme that is headed for total collapse. In fact the economy operated just fine without the federal reserve before it came into existance.

It was easy to go to fiat money from gold standard. It won't be easy (to say the least to go back to gold standard or silver standard) because it will wipe out 1.4 quadrillion dollars of derivatives market around the world. You think governments around the world will agree to that? The economy operated fine during the barter system too. So eventually then, we should go to bartering.

Neshant wrote: The best way would be to introduce gold as a competing currency for transaction. Pretty soon people will realise what holds value and what is just paper that's being watered down continually. And then the fed can be done away with.

Gold is subject to speculation too. And I don't understand people's obsession with gold. Why should it be used as a currency anyway? If anything, commodities and production capacity should determine a country's currency, because that is what purchasing power should represent. Not something that shines and it as worthless as fiat money.

Neshant wrote: Anyway I expect the federal reserve will not relent and the system is locked in for a collapse. Along the way all attempts will be made to transfer the maximum amount of losses from the failed speculators known as banks & financial companies, house flippers..etc. onto the backs of the productive. Only after this collapse can the gold standard be reinstituted. I'm sure many charlatans, bankers and other con artists who caused the collapse will quickly re-invent themselves as reformers and try to setup another ponzi system in the post-crash environment. So great care should be exercised during the post-crash transition period so they don't hijack the process.

This I agree with. The Bank of England will not go down so easy. They have been controlling the Fed in the US since 1970s.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 06 Jul 2010 06:10

IMF eyes data mission to Argentina

Such a mission would be a small, but significant step for reestablishing ties between the IMF and Argentina, whose relations have been strained since the country's $100 billion debt default and currency crisis in 2001.

But Argentina's own statement to the IMF earlier, was scathing about the Fund and its advice, which it blames for the 2001 default.

"If we had followed the recommendations traditionally made by (the IMF) -- which have favored opening our economies, foreign indebtedness, financial liberalization and 'unbeatable' market-oriented reforms -- the outcome would have been totally different and today we would have been embroiled in a fresh economic, social and political crisis," the statement said. "Therefore, we celebrate today our well-gained economic independence."

http://ca.news.finance.yahoo.com/s/2504 ... ntina.html

aqkhan · Post by **aqkhan** » 06 Jul 2010 06:37

Harry Dent - The Great Depression Ahead

India is going to pull the world out of crisis. China is already at its peak and its growth will only fall here on.

Check out the video at about 40:00.