Indian Naval Discussion

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 03 Jul 2010 10:29

Submarines kiss at Naval Dockyard

More than 80 sailors and officers had a providential escape when two Kilo-class 877EKM attack submarines collided as one of the two approached the naval dockyard early this week.

INS Sindhuratna and INS Sindhukesri, measuring about 70 metres, collided when they were alongside each other while entering the narrow gateway to the naval dockyard, said sources.

Both vessels were lucky to survive the hit as the pressurised double-hull was able to absorb most of the impact, but the rudder of one of submarines was damaged.

Full Article here - http://www.mid-day.com/news/2010/jul/03 ... ckyard.htm

Note: The newspaper is a Tabloid & the Hack is best known for his articles on the Mumbai underworld and crime.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 03 Jul 2010 19:40

Submarines collide at Naval jetty, lucky escape for sailors.

About 160 sailors and officers on board two Indian Navy attack submarines had a lucky escape when the vessels collided at a Mumbai harbour jetty while one of the them was attempting parallel berthing with the other.

There was no injury to any Navy personnel or major damage to the vessels during the incident that occurred 10 days ago with Navy officers at the headquarters in New Delhi describing the incident as minor.

"It is a minor incident that took place 10 days ago. A submarine was attempting a parallel berthing alongside another, which is a routine practice, at the Navy jetty in the Mumbai harbour," a Naval officer told PTI today.

The Navy has ordered a Board of Inquiry (BOI) into the mishap involving the two vessels--INS Sindukesari and Sindhuratna-- which are Kilo class submarines of Russian origin--in which they suffered minor damages.

One of the two submarines involved in the mishap had recently returned after a refit in Russia.

Since there was no damage to any equipment or weapon system, the Navy said a minor repair to the submarine would be carried out locally.

But officers who did not want to be identified said the rudder of one of the vessels was damaged, requiring a minor repair.

Though officially the Navy refused to respond to queries on the incident, officers said these types of minor incidents do take place regularly when attempting parallel berthing.

Navy at present has 16 submarines in its fleet, of which 10 are Kilo class submarines bought from the Russians, four are HDW types and another two are Foxtrot class.

One of the Foxtrot class submarines is due to be decommissioned from the Navy this month.

Navy plans to induct six more submarines into its fleet in the next five years under the Scorpene project currently underway in Mazgaon Docks, a Defence Public Sector Undertaking, in Mumbai.

It is also looking for a follow-on project for the Scorpenes and is currently searching for a second production line for the same for which private shipyards too are being considered.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Jul 2010 20:28

hopefully they all move to karwar sooner the better. dedicated jetties are needed to park two subs each (right and left), this parallel parking should be a feature only in small fwd bases.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Jul 2010 06:40

Maybe they want to do the job of the Paki navy themselves! With scarce resources why do you need parallel berthing? Is there shortage of berthing space? Or is this another parade maneuver?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Jul 2010 07:36

looking at goog earth imagery of mumbai docs - it is very cramped both in jetty space and manouver room. just compare pearl harbour and newport news with its miles of waterfront.

no active navy ships should really be based in mumbai now esp not submarines which a "guest" at the taj and such can monitor. CG patrol ships
can use the naval dock vacated when the IN moves entirely to karwar.

point google earth to "kings bay, georgia" and check out the jetties and covered demagnetizing parking for this specialized submarine base.
you can see a ohio ssbn parked in open also. similar facilities would be in bangor, bremerton, san diego and groton.

neeraj · Post by **neeraj** » 04 Jul 2010 10:56

Navy to buy submarine mine laying equipment

The Navy is planning to buy Submarine Mine Laying Equipment (SMILE) to augment existing capabilities of its conventional fleet. The SMILE, according to the RFI, should be capable of laying 24 ground mines and withstand maximum underwater speeds of the submarine. The basic design of the SMILE should comprise components and sub-systems such as two independent magazines capable of housing at least 12 mines each.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 06 Jul 2010 13:18

Don't get the idea about SMILE. Kilos are designed for carrying mines in torp tubes. Are they considering something like external piggyback containers?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jul 2010 13:35

yes, the navy rfi makes that quite clear
http://www.irfc-nausena.nic.in/rfi/RFI_ ... 2Jul10.pdf

I guess they want to preserve the limited size torpedo magazine of Kilo for Klubs and torps only.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Jul 2010 17:39

Parallel berthing is std. in every navy.It appears from what we've been told,if accurate,that the first sub suddenly stopped in its tracks.If that was the case then the other sub was possibly following too close.But it is true that Bombay naval dockyard needs to be de-congested fast.However,reports of sub collisions are legion,especially those underwater and it just indicates the complexity of manouvering a sub both above and below water.The Greeks rejected German U-214 supposedly becaus of its poor sea handling when on the surface,which the Germans deny saying that greece was welshing on the deal as it was bankrupt!

Incidentally check out this Pentagon plan to develop a "flying sub",it would solve the sub parking problem!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/7872 ... arine.html
Excerpt:

Pentagon plans 'flying submarine'
Pentagon researchers are attempting to develop a military vehicle which can travel underwater like a submarine before bursting out of the waves and flying like an aeroplane.

By Tom Chivers

The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), the US military science and technology department, has set about creating an aircraft that can fly low over the water until near its target before disappearing under the sea to avoid detection.

It would then creep closer in submarine form before attacking its target, probably a ship or coastal installation, and fly home.

While the principles of hydrodynamic and aerodynamic flight are similar, the technological challenges are profound. Aircraft need to be as light as possible, so that they can use a minimum of power to get airborne, while submarines need to be dense and strong to withstand water pressure. Heavier-than-air aircraft get their lift from airflow over their wings - submarines simply pump water in and out to change their buoyancy.

One method of getting around the latter problem is to design a submarine that is lighter than water, but - like an upside-down aeroplane - uses lift generated by its wings to force it away from the surface. Then, after surfacing, the wings' "angle of attack" would be changed to generate upwards lift instead, allowing it to fly.

Graham Hawkes, a submarine designer, believes that modern lightweight carbon fibre composites could be used to build a craft that is both strong enough and light enough to fly above and below the water. He has already designed and built a submersible craft called the "Super Falcon" which uses stubby wings to "fly" down to 300 metres. He says that if it were given jet engines and larger wings, it could fly at up to 900kph (560mph) in the air, while still being capable of underwater travel at around 18kph (11mph). At these speeds, the behaviour of water and air over the control surfaces is similar. "Think about it as flying under water," says Mr Hawkes. "It can be done. It just needs a lot of work."

One problem could be overcome in a dramatic fashion - in order to get the wings to start generating downward lift, the craft would have to get underwater; but a lighter-than-water vessel would struggle to do so. Mr Hawkes suggests copying birds: "You might have to put the nose down and literally dive, smack, into the water. It would certainly be spectacular."

There are a variety of other design problems to overcome. Ordinary batteries capable of giving the craft a 44km (28 mile) range - as specified by DARPA - would weigh more than the rest of the vessel, but running it on ordinary fuel would require a supply of air, meaning a snorkel and a maximum depth of just a few meters.

Also, jet engines - which run at several hundred degrees celsius - would most likely explode from the sudden change in temperature if they were rapidly submerged after airborne use, but piston engines would not survive being immersed in water. Jim McKenna, an engineer at the UK Civil Aviation Authority, says: "You can't let cold seawater get at a hot engine because the thermal shock will blow it apart." The Pentagon's dream of a flying submarine is still some way away yet.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 07 Jul 2010 11:35

NDTV: Rear Admiral dies on firing range in Kochi

rahuls · Post by **rahuls** » 07 Jul 2010 12:05

TOI breaking news says Real Admiral southern command killed in a fire accident at INS Dronacharya.

Pragadeesh · Post by **Pragadeesh** » 07 Jul 2010 12:13

Rear Admiral S.S. Jamwal, Chief of Staff of the Southern Naval Command; was killed in accident gunfire
May God bless his soul, RIP sir.
http://thehindu.com/news/states/kerala/ ... 504223.ece

The incident took place around 10.30 a.m. As per intitial reports, the Rear Admiral was at the small arms firing range of INS Dronacharya to oversee firing practice of trainees when he accidentally got hit. He died on the spot.

Is this because of some stray bullets?
I think it is advisable to don bullet proof jackets even by the visitors in a firing range.
I do not know how to explain this loss, I mean in what account.
I think this is the second one this year, one such accident happened aboard a warship too.
Motherland lost a dutiful son, really sad.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 07 Jul 2010 12:27

^ The bullet hit the head.

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 07 Jul 2010 12:54

Sad, Unfortunate ... But i believe anybody there is supposed to be wearing a helmet .. If he was not ... then well .... this is a huge lesson

gogna · Post by **gogna** » 07 Jul 2010 14:22

A file photo of Rear Admiral SS Jamwal (the taller person in the photo), Chief of Staff of the Southern Naval Command, who got killed in accidental gunfire on Wednesday morning. Photo: Special Arrangement[TheHindu]

RIP what a tragic waste so sad and angry.

gogna · Post by **gogna** » 07 Jul 2010 14:35

Indian Navy Rear Admiral Shoots Self, Accidentally
Livefist Shiv Arror

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Jul 2010 16:20

What a tragedy.R.Adm.Jamwal had a very distinguished career seen from his CV below and had he lived even more to come.Many years ago,another fine naval officer whom I knew died in Bombay when a hot water geyser exploded in his toilet. An untimely death of a serving officer is all the more poignant when it happens as such and not in battle.Our heartfelt conndolences to the family and may he RIP.

http://thehindu.com/news/states/kerala/ ... epage=true

Rear Admiral S.S. Jamwal, Chief of Staff of the Southern Naval Command, was killed in accidental gunfire at the small arms firing range at the Navy's missile and gunnery school INS Dronacharya, near here, on Wednesday. “The incident occurred at about 10:30 a.m. today [Wednesday]. An inquiry has been ordered to ascertain the cause of the accident,” said a defence media communiqué.

Rear Admiral Satyendra Singh Jamwal was commissioned in the Executive Branch of the Navy as a Surface Warfare Officer on July 1, 1980. He specialised in Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW). The Rear Admiral was an alumnus of Lawrence School, Sanawar; National Defence Academy; Grechko Naval War College, USSR; Defence Services Staff College, Wellington; and the Army War College in Mhow.

His afloat appointments included tenures on Indian Naval Ships (INS) Taragiri, Atul, Rajput, Ranvijay and command of Ships Vibhuti and Kuthar. He was the Commissioning Executive Officer of Guided Missile Destroyer Delhi and Commissioning Commanding Officer of Guided Missile Frigate Beas. His staff appointments at Integrated Headquarters, Ministry of Defence (Navy), included the posts of Joint Director of Staff Requirement and Director, Naval Operations. He was also the Executive Officer at Naval Academy, Goa, and an Instructor at ASW School, Kochi. Between 1983 and 1885, he was ADC to the President of India.

On promotion to the Flag Rank on September1, 2009, he took over as Chief of Staff of the Southern Naval Command. Prior to this, he was Naval Attaché at the Indian Embassy at Moscow, Russia. The Rear Admiral is survived by his wife Geeta and a daughter and a son.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 07 Jul 2010 16:35

gogna wrote:Indian Navy Rear Admiral Shoots Self, Accidentally
Livefist Shiv Arror

You can shoot yourself in the head in two cases - committing suicide or peering into the barrel of a loaded gun. Both doesn't sound right for this man.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 07 Jul 2010 17:42

SNaik wrote:
gogna wrote:Indian Navy Rear Admiral Shoots Self, Accidentally
Livefist Shiv Arror
You can shoot yourself in the head in two cases - committing suicide or peering into the barrel of a loaded gun. Both doesn't sound right for this man.

The only possibility that comes to the mind is ricocheting. The barrel may be pointing downwards towards the ground and the bullet may have been accidentally discharged, ricocheted and hit him. I wonder which firearm he was using. I wonder this because sten gun is known for its unfortunate tendency to sometimes fire the bullet without the trigger being pressed. But then again, this is all speculation and we will not know the truth until the enquiry is completed and publicly announced.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 07 Jul 2010 20:02

SNaik wrote:
gogna wrote:Indian Navy Rear Admiral Shoots Self, Accidentally
Livefist Shiv Arror
You can shoot yourself in the head in two cases - committing suicide or peering into the barrel of a loaded gun. Both doesn't sound right for this man.

Suman Sharma reports that it is the case as he tried to clear the jammed pistol.

http://chhindits.blogspot.com/2010/07/r ... amwal.html

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 07 Jul 2010 21:31

"What a tragedy.R.Adm.Jamwal had a very distinguished career seen from his CV below and had he lived even more to come.Many years ago,another fine naval officer whom I knew died in Bombay when a hot water geyser exploded in his toilet."

Philip, nice message, but I wish you hadn't mentioned the other incident with the 'exploding geyser'. It reminds me of my visit to India in 1995 when someone's carelessness almost resulted in a nasty accident. Luckily, no one was in the shower area when the geyser burst with hot water splashing all around.

I can imagine the suffering of that other officer, if the scenario was the same. Hopefully, he didn't suffer for long.

Perhaps we can start a new topic about the carelessness and/or callousness of people, specific to Indians, in the general discussion form.

jagang · Post by **jagang** » 07 Jul 2010 22:45

a dynamic and well loved officer...he will be missed by many

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 08 Jul 2010 00:52

RIP
really sad to see a distinguished serving officer die like this.every soldier loves to fight to win and ultimately die as a martyr
huge huge loss to the nation.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 08 Jul 2010 06:09

Condolences

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 08 Jul 2010 06:12

Kanson wrote:
SNaik wrote:
You can shoot yourself in the head in two cases - committing suicide or peering into the barrel of a loaded gun. Both doesn't sound right for this man.
Suman Sharma reports that it is the case as he tried to clear the jammed pistol.

http://chhindits.blogspot.com/2010/07/r ... amwal.html

That sounds extremely unlikely for anybody who's been trained to handle a firearm, let alone an admiral.

EDITED(apparently the article I posted before the edit was some small time paper, and Pakistani, so the veracity of which is pretty doubtful and I wouldn't want to spread anything that might soil a great soldier's name)

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 08 Jul 2010 06:57

Mystery shrouds death of Naval officer from Jammu

51-year-old Rear Admiral Jamwal, Chief of Staff of the Southern Naval Command, the second ranked naval officer here, was at the training establishment’s small arms firing range of ‘INS Dronacharya’ when the accidental firing occurred around 1030 Hours, naval spokespersons said.

"If the Chief of Staff wants to commit suicide he need not go to the firing range. He was accompanied by his entire staff including the staff of Dronacharya. It was an official, planned visit to a firing range to check the progress of training. He was accompanied by his full staff including the Executive Officer of Dronacharya, the firing officer, head of the range, everyone was present," Commodore Ajayakumar told reporters.

The Rear Admiral, Commodore Kumar said, had said he himself would do some firing practice and first used the Insas and later the 9 mm pistol. Unfortunately the pistol misfired twice. While he was inspecting it from close range to ascertain the cause of the misfiring, it suddenly went off, he said. "The muzzle was pointing towards his head and during that time the gun went off accidentally," Commodore Kumar said.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 08 Jul 2010 10:02

Airavat wrote:Mystery shrouds death of Naval officer from Jammu

............
"The muzzle was pointing towards his head and during that time the gun went off accidentally," Commodore Kumar said.

If that is true then he made a huge blunder (which is very surprising). The first thing that forces are tought is never point a gun at anyone if there is a bullet in chamber or even if its empty, when you are at firing range.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 08 Jul 2010 13:03

Sid wrote: If that is true then he made a huge blunder (which is very surprising). The first thing that forces are tought is never point a gun at anyone if there is a bullet in chamber or even if its empty, when you are at firing range.

This is a serious fault by firing officer as well. With two misfires, he should be at Admiral's side by then. I doubt that Admiral was a regular guest at the range (regular shooters know how to handle the weapon after misfires), so firing officer should have attended the matter, checking is the fault due to ammunition or the weapon itself. I've been at the range at least once a week for 20 years and I've seen people getting confused after misfires, staring at the weapon and waiving it around, etc.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 08 Jul 2010 13:21

Sid wrote: If that is true then he made a huge blunder (which is very surprising). The first thing that forces are tought is never point a gun at anyone if there is a bullet in chamber or even if its empty, when you are at firing range.

After a misfire, the round is "cooking" in the chamber, meaning that it's state is unknown and is considered extremely unstable.

Anything, including a tiny little shake would set it off.

Pointing such a thing toward oneself is unheard of.

Karma.

rajkumar · Post by **rajkumar** » 08 Jul 2010 13:51

chetak wrote:
Sid wrote: If that is true then he made a huge blunder (which is very surprising). The first thing that forces are tought is never point a gun at anyone if there is a bullet in chamber or even if its empty, when you are at firing range.
After a misfire, the round is "cooking" in the chamber, meaning that it's state is unknown and is considered extremely unstable.

Anything, including a tiny little shake would set it off.

Pointing such a thing toward oneself is unheard of.

Karma.

Not unheard off. One of my friends almost shot the range officer with a similar fault. The bullet missed the range officers head by 5 cm's. Accidents can and do happen.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Jul 2010 14:52

Varoon,the officer I knew died,so I was told, from head injuries sustained by the toilet wall collapsing after the blast.I remember him being an expert in astrology/palmistry,and he used to be in demand at parties.He did have a rather fatalistic attitude,perhaps premonitions of events to come.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Jul 2010 17:46

Are these Indian Sailors on pier ?

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 08 Jul 2010 19:50

Austin wrote:Are these Indian Sailors on pier ?

This is North Sea Fleet sub Vepr'. What makes you think that the guys on pier are Indian, the difference in uniforms?

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 08 Jul 2010 23:00

Indian Navy Formally Floats AUV Requirement, Wants A Fully Indian Machine

Thursday, July 08, 2010Indian Navy Formally Floats AUV Requirement, Wants A Fully Indian Machine

In a long and commendable tradition of supporting indigenous design and development, the Indian Navy has invited interest from Indian industry -- both state owned and private -- to meet a requirement for at least 10 autonomous underwater vehicles (AUVs) that can be developed and begin production within four years of award of contract. In a refreshing break, the Navy has chosen to exercise the "Make" procedure of India's Defence Procurement Procedure 2008 ( DPP-2008), a special category that can be invoked by the armed forces for "high technology complex systems designed, developed and produced indigenously".

The Navy wants AUVs that can carry "variable payloads like high definition sonars and underwater cameras for surveillance reconnaissance activities of the sea bed (such as MCM operations, Oceanographic survey and specialised mapping etc)." The Navy also stipulates, in a broad list of requirements, that contending AUV concepts should involve platforms with (a) data recording facilities for subsequent analysis, (b) be capable of providing realistic target training for sonar operators, (c) be capable of being launched from small vessels with a maximum weight of 1.5 tons and (d) be able to operate at depth upto 500 mtrs for a duration of 7-8 hours.

The Navy has asked for an initial expression of interest by July 15, though this date is most likely to be extended. Several IIT incubation projects, which displayed amateur AUVs at the recent DefExpo are likely to show interest, or at least look toward technical tie-ups with larger firms. In early 2008, the DRDO -- currently developing an AUV at its Naval Science & Tech Laboratory in Visakhapatnam -- inaugurated an AUV Centre in the city. The indigenous programme is headed by a naval officer, Commodore N Banerjee.

vic · Post by **vic** » 08 Jul 2010 23:48

deleted.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Jul 2010 00:17

SNaik wrote: What makes you think that the guys on pier are Indian, the difference in uniforms?

They somehow looked SDRE to me , Are you certain they are not Indian sailors ? They may have been trained on that Akula-2 ?

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 09 Jul 2010 00:36

http://www.hindustantimes.com/It-was-su ... 69517.aspx

Police officers in Kerala stuck to their theory that Rear Admiral S.S. Jamwal, the chief of staff of the Southern Naval Command had committed suicide in Kochi on Wednesday and his death was no freak accident as claimed by the naval authorities. A senior police officer told HT on condition of anonymity that the bullet had entered 1 cm above Jamwal’s right ear and exited 3 cm above his left.

“The bullet hit the rear admiral from point-blank range. If the muzzle (of the 9mm Beretta pistol) had pointed towards him mistakenly, he would have been hit in the face,” the officer said.

doesnt a rear admiral have access to his side arm at all times, why does he have to go to the range to commit scide? Media again trying to put a spin on this episode for TRP.

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 09 Jul 2010 00:36

double post

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 09 Jul 2010 00:36

duplicate posr=t

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Jul 2010 00:42

Austin wrote:
SNaik wrote: What makes you think that the guys on pier are Indian, the difference in uniforms?
They somehow looked SDRE to me , Are you certain they are not Indian sailors ? They may have been trained on that Akula-2 ?

I agree that the 3 on the ground look more SDRE than TFVD but the lack of heavy woolen clothing makes that unlikely ?