MRCA News and Discussion

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Gaur » 03 Jul 2010 11:37

Kanan,
Typing in all caps amounts to shouting. So unless you really mean to convey that you are shouting, detest from using all caps.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby johnny_m » 03 Jul 2010 14:12

Ok Kanan lets get things into perspective.

1. Typhoon has very good stand off capability with SCALP, but the SCALP India will get will have much lesser range thanks to MTCR. Gripen has similar capability with Taurus and Rafale can also carry SCALP.

2. Where the F 16/18 has an advantage is in cheaper Guided munitions as more are cleared to use with them than the Typhoon. Typhoon may get this capability in the future, but bar the Germans and Austrians the other Typhoon users have F 35 or F 15 to do the A2G job, so integration may be slowish.

3. In A2A despite the Typhoons claims of superiority the Rafale has had favourable exchange rates in all the recent exercises. The reason being much lower RCS, Spectra and OSF. All the Euro Canards including Gripen will get Meteor infact Gripen is the test platform for the Meteor.

4. Is ALARM still being produced ? HARM is. But ALARM is clearly better because of its loitering feature.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 03 Jul 2010 14:52

Two recent issues of AWST,one with a feature on India and the latest VAYU contain a lot of serious issues regarding the health and future trends of the Indian aerospace industry,our new "sunrise industry",plus the ramifications for the IAF,worth reading.In short,the future path for the IAF appears to be more Russian super-Flankers,until our version of the PAK-FA arrives along with whichever aircraft is chosen for the MMRCA project.No one is willing to speak of the "failure" of the LCA,one report says that it is going to be v.difficult to maintain as the engineering is poor/internal packaging of eqpt.,etc.,but for national prestige the aircraft will be trundled out into service in some form.A v.detailed analysis in Vayu by a learned professor,examines several options for the IAF/Indian aerospace including going back to examining redeveloping proven airframes from the HF-24/Gnat/Canberras for aircraft for various roles saying that most air combat is at transonic speeds.No one likes to do the drity job o close support,attack helos and dedicated close-support aircraft are v.vulnerable to MANPADS,etc.,therefore he advocates modifying an aircraft like the Canberra which can carry a large payload and cruise at higher alts. when deliverng their payloads.This is what is happening right now in the spats in Iraq and Afghanistan.He advocates developing the MK-2 LCA in simpler engineering tech than is being done at the moment.Our poor aviation engineering skills is why many of our projects are delayed.He says that with existing aircraft engines in service,we can v.easily produce home-grown aircraft in manner similar to China,at low cost that will do the job.One excellent quote from a former aviator,"don't ask for the best,you won't get it,not the second best too...but the third best which will do the job."
It reminds me of a recent quote of an admninistrator/head responsible for the UK's defence procurement,who said that it "never failed to astonish him how major defence systems always arrived late,at greatly inflated costs and failed to achieve the performance parameters for which they were designed for."
One can see how these words fits the LCA project too!

There is talk of the AMCA (advanced MCA),but it will not be our 5th-gen option as we are yet to perfect the LCA.We are adopting the same approach as China,buy advanced Russian aircraft while trying to absorb as much foreign tech as possible,produce in large numbers,which China has done in superior manner,and we have resorted to ordering more Flankers to reduce the growing gap in inventory.
The quote says that the IAF chief would prefer to have several hundred of new MIG-21s in his pocket right now than wait for the new arrivals.A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush,v.true.What the IAF or any service always requires are the tools in hand to do the job.The desire to continously upgrade and improve a system in the works defeats its induction into service on time and the services are left with fewer numbers to do the business.
An excellent case in point is the recent induction of two new fast attack craft for the IN.On paper,they seem to be underarmed and relatively unsophisticated for their size,but they have been built in record time and are available right now to patrol the western seaboard based out of Goa.

The lack of greater % for foreign investment AWST says will make it v.difficult for us to achieve the goal of assimilating the latest high-tech western technology,as services are not considered part of the 50% local investmentrequirement.Moreover,the GOI/MOD/PSUs do not want to allow a full foreign hand at the controls of India's aviation industry,which can switch on and off during a crisis,holding us to ransom.This is going to make it v.difficult for some of the high tech we are expecting like AESA radars,etc.,from western manufacturers.All but the Typhoon have a clear AESA radar on offer.We are experiencing delays even in on-going local production of Flankers,Hawks,etc. and though eventually we will manage the job,like the Jaguar production,with this poor track record,how we will produce all but just 18 of the sophistiicated MMRCA is open to question.It is why there is the continous "buy foreign vs local production"
spat in the corridors of power.The DRDO critiocises the IAF/services for not buying desi,whi in turn swipe at their critics saying that nothing ever arrives on time,etc.A recent alleged remark to this by Dr.Saraswat was retorted to and openly criticised by the IAF chief.

However,Indian aviation is all set for a huge boom and the winners are more likely to be local manufacturers entering the industry.Our large workforce will also see a lot of foreign investment,perhaps in simpler manufacturing.

After studying the reports,features,one now understands why the French are offering 40 "ready to fight" Rafales as part of the deal,apart from the decision to upgrade all our existing M-2000s.A long time ago I suggested that this would be a way in which the French could steal a march over their rivals.There is no way that the Typhoon can be so delivered,MIG-35,F-16I,and Gripen NG.The Super Horny's AESA radar TOT availability Q could also see it being shot down.The fight is truly on!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby saptarishi » 03 Jul 2010 15:21

as always philip sir brings out the best analysis,, trully french offer of 40 rafales is very crucial,, but as far as the weapons package

raytheon is offering aim-120c7, aim-9x, enhanced dual mode (gps+laser) paveway 2/3, agm-88b (not the latest agm-88e),jsow while boeing offer includes jdam and slam-er,

russians are offering rvv-sd ,rvv-md, kh-59mk2, kh-35ue,kh31ad,kh31pd,kh-38 family (laser+gps+inertial+tv guidance)and kab-500se(gps), kab-1500 laser bombs.

mbda offer includes meteor, asraam, mica ir and mica em, pgm-1000 while other european manufacturers are offering taurus kepd 350, aasm, hope/hosbo, iris-t. israel is also offering rafale spice pgm and python 5 and lizard pgm for gripen .,,weapon options are quite wide

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 03 Jul 2010 17:13

Philip,

Is there any chance that you can scan those two articles and post them? Or please provide the titles and authors of these articles. Thx.

Also, who is this "learned professor"? Can you at least provide a name? (Note that when the LCA was conceived, in the very early 80s, there was a prof at the Bombay IIT who preferred to modify the -ves of the MiG-21 and build out. A different story.)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 03 Jul 2010 17:59

Ajat,please don't blame the messenger.I am only quoting from two very respected aviation journals,AWST and VAYU and their distinguished contributors.If you have studied my posts on the LCA,I have always maintained that we must bring it to perfection regardless of the inordinate delay and that a fast track method is required to bring out Mk-1 in a simple interceptor/air combat role,just as the MIG-21 was designed for instead if trying to bundle into a small airframe every piece of eqpt. for multi-role use,just as we in India do with our autorickshaws,vans,two-wheelers and other vehicles! Once Mk-1 is perfected we can see then how much potential the aircraft has for the future and either develop future variants or dsign/induct its successor. If the LCA has been so long in gestation,fundamentally it has been the fault of the various GOI administrations who never monitored the progress meticulously and the over ambitious zeal of the dsigners who bit off more than they copuld chew.WE still decades on and thousannds of crores spent NO Kaveri engine with talking about! So let the facts speak for themselves please as far as the LCA is concerned.QWhile we were pussyfooting with the project,the Sino-Pak JF-17 is a reality entering service in both countries.It may be inferior,but if there is a conflict tomorrow it will be available to the enemy unlike the LCA.One simple fact about production even if the LCA is ready for production.We have been able to build only 12 Hawks so far! The official statements about LCA production was that only 8-12 could be built a year,simply too slow for the IAF's needs which is why this grand contest for the MMRCA is afoot.

Secondly,as far as Russian eqpt./aircraft goes,no one can deny the fantastic job that the MIG-21 did for decades,acquired at peanut prices,along with other variants-we have had our IAF top brass recounting how the early version of the MIG-29 was superior than our M-2000s too,and now we have the world's best heavweight in the Su-30MKI which is going to be even further upgraded to carry the Russo-Indian Brahmos missile,another example of an excellent Russian product!

Please let us not get too carried away with jingoistic sentiment that everything we make or do is the best.This is the Paki philosophy which is why they have lost every war with us and in Afghanistan too! A chain is as string as its weakest link and we must know our deficiencis and weaknesses in order to achieve our objectives and victory.

PS:Let me give you the names of the writers and issue dates over the weekend.The learned prof. has written in VAYU before,approach very commensensical.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 03 Jul 2010 18:11

^^^

Confusion reigns.

So, exactly what does the "learned professor" say about the LCA? Just bullet points please (without comments). Thx.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 03 Jul 2010 18:30

Also, AWST, are you talking of the "India Rising" June 14/21, 2010 issue? (Down load pdf from: edited 13 Mbs.)
Last edited by archan on 03 Jul 2010 20:06, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: use the link in the post below.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Ashwin B » 03 Jul 2010 19:02

NRao - That link is NSFW!!

It does show the front cover's screenshot from AWST, but the rest of the links and ads that are on it are NSFW.
http://oron.com/3ikoq0z0edkg/Aviation_W ... m.pdf.html
That maybe a direct link to download the pdf.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 03 Jul 2010 20:08

Philip,

Is the prof, Prof Das of "The Case for Simpler Fighters"?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kanan » 03 Jul 2010 20:21

johnny_m wrote:Ok Kanan lets get things into perspective.

1. Typhoon has very good stand off capability with SCALP, but the SCALP India will get will have much lesser range thanks to MTCR. Gripen has similar capability with Taurus and Rafale can also carry SCALP.

2. Where the F 16/18 has an advantage is in cheaper Guided munitions as more are cleared to use with them than the Typhoon. Typhoon may get this capability in the future, but bar the Germans and Austrians the other Typhoon users have F 35 or F 15 to do the A2G job, so integration may be slowish.

3. In A2A despite the Typhoons claims of superiority the Rafale has had favourable exchange rates in all the recent exercises. The reason being much lower RCS, Spectra and OSF. All the Euro Canards including Gripen will get Meteor infact Gripen is the test platform for the Meteor.

4. Is ALARM still being produced ? HARM is. But ALARM is clearly better because of its loitering feature.



My dear johnny m,
With all due respect, we REALLY need to get things into perspective.................. :D
Feel free to respond and correct me if I am wrong

1.Scalp does not violate MTCR because its range is less than 300km and almost the same as SLAM-ER, so no reason why India would get a scaled down Scalp (Storm Shadow). Meanwhile Scalp Naval Version is under development and it will have a very long range and it is not for sale to OUTSIDERS like us Indians!!!! As per Gripen and Taurus combo,let me tell u friend Taurus has 500 km+ range and hence not for sale!!! 8)

2. True US weapons are cost effective but Euro is NOW at an all time low.........

3. As per most open source info Typhoon has the lowest RCS among all fourth gen fighters!I really don't know if Rafale has dominated in excercises! :eek: would be nice if you could throw in a couple of links..........................

4. ALARM is very much under production to the best of my knowledge......... :|

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kanan » 03 Jul 2010 20:25

Gaur wrote:Kanan,
Typing in all caps amounts to shouting. So unless you really mean to convey that you are shouting, detest from using all caps.


I am truly sorry, I didn't mean to shout or offend! Apologies........... will do better henceforth :) !!!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kanan » 03 Jul 2010 20:29

Philip wrote:Ajat,please don't blame the messenger.I am only quoting from two very respected aviation journals,AWST and VAYU and their distinguished contributors.If you have studied my posts on the LCA,I have always maintained that we must bring it to perfection regardless of the inordinate delay and that a fast track method is required to bring out Mk-1 in a simple interceptor/air combat role,just as the MIG-21 was designed for instead if trying to bundle into a small airframe every piece of eqpt. for multi-role use,just as we in India do with our autorickshaws,vans,two-wheelers and other vehicles! Once Mk-1 is perfected we can see then how much potential the aircraft has for the future and either develop future variants or dsign/induct its successor. If the LCA has been so long in gestation,fundamentally it has been the fault of the various GOI administrations who never monitored the progress meticulously and the over ambitious zeal of the dsigners who bit off more than they copuld chew.WE still decades on and thousannds of crores spent NO Kaveri engine with talking about! So let the facts speak for themselves please as far as the LCA is concerned.QWhile we were pussyfooting with the project,the Sino-Pak JF-17 is a reality entering service in both countries.It may be inferior,but if there is a conflict tomorrow it will be available to the enemy unlike the LCA.One simple fact about production even if the LCA is ready for production.We have been able to build only 12 Hawks so far! The official statements about LCA production was that only 8-12 could be built a year,simply too slow for the IAF's needs which is why this grand contest for the MMRCA is afoot.

Secondly,as far as Russian eqpt./aircraft goes,no one can deny the fantastic job that the MIG-21 did for decades,acquired at peanut prices,along with other variants-we have had our IAF top brass recounting how the early version of the MIG-29 was superior than our M-2000s too,and now we have the world's best heavweight in the Su-30MKI which is going to be even further upgraded to carry the Russo-Indian Brahmos missile,another example of an excellent Russian product!

Please let us not get too carried away with jingoistic sentiment that everything we make or do is the best.This is the Paki philosophy which is why they have lost every war with us and in Afghanistan too! A chain is as string as its weakest link and we must know our deficiencis and weaknesses in order to achieve our objectives and victory.

PS:Let me give you the names of the writers and issue dates over the weekend.The learned prof. has written in VAYU before,approach very commensensical.


I have to agree! Better NOW than later ( who knows when :mrgreen: )

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Asit P » 03 Jul 2010 20:34

Philip wrote:While we were pussyfooting with the project,the Sino-Pak JF-17 is a reality entering service in both countries.It may be inferior,but if there is a conflict tomorrow it will be available to the enemy unlike the LCA.


Philip, LSP 4 is fitted with state of the art Avionics, as well as a very capably radar. Hence, if needed, it can be put to war tomorrow. May I now know the radar which is used by JF 17 at the moment? Moreover, has it ever fired any missile or dropped any bomb? If not, then how can you confidently say that JF 17 can be used in a conflict tomorrow?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Surya » 03 Jul 2010 21:17

ah I see people are trying to bring logic against Phillip saar. :)

oh you poor sods - ye stand no chance :)

saar lives in a world all his own where cheap russian equipment of superb quality and assorted ex air marshals and choice scotch proliferate

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 03 Jul 2010 21:30

surya, Not right to swipe a fellow member.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 03 Jul 2010 22:04

Just because Philip has a different pov does not make him a russian agent.

He and ( Prof/Admiral ) tries to bring in different idea and perspective to the LCA episode which is thought provoking and interesting.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 03 Jul 2010 22:47

My feeling is that messengers should post messages - preferably quotes from articles. By adding their own words (and views) it sends the wrong or a non-existent "message".

From the AWST article here is the exact quote:

While the program may be a decadeplus
late, “I don’t think there will ever
be any admission to failure on the LCA;
the air force and navy will have to take
the aircraft,” says a defense industry executive.
Despite the delays and the problems
with the Kaveri engine, the project
remains a source of national pride.


The author Douglas Barrie (well known for sure) should have in the first place been far more precise (Indian or a foreign defense industry executive) which make some difference and also should have followed up the assertion "will have to take". As far as I know the IN did not "have to take" (correct me if I am wrong). Or is the IN unhappy with the NLCA? And, the LCA Mk-II should keep the IAF happy (right?).

However, there is absolutely nothing in that AWST article that will or should ring bells on BR. It highlights ALL problems, that we ALL know about, and (rightly - because India would like to be an international player) places it on an international stage.

What we took years and a few hundred threads to do Barrie does it in two pages. (So, what else is new?)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 03 Jul 2010 22:52

BTW, I am very surprised that Barrie did not walk across to the Indian Army tent and beat up the Arjun and claim that the IA "will have to take" the Arjun too!!!!!!!

Nice English though.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Surya » 03 Jul 2010 22:56

It was a humorous swipe using his own words

- one - the days of cheap Russian equipment are over so lets stop having wet dreams about that (err austin I did not call him a Russian agent -that position has already been taken :) )

- two - all these air marshals and assorted experts who now write articles - well wtf did they do when they were in positions of power. Did I hear one little squeak from these guys?? Easy to now write. met one of these ex air marshals and jumped on him on this topic. all i got was spluttering rage

- three- phillip has always mentioned his love of a good drink - if memory serves me write - if he does not then I apologise

Bottom line we always effing talk of LCA failiure in most public articles so its ridiculous to talk not bringing up the lCA failure.

Its only on BR do we appreciate the long road to get back in the fighter business.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby johnny_m » 03 Jul 2010 23:16

Kanan wrote:
johnny_m wrote:Ok Kanan lets get things into perspective.

1. Typhoon has very good stand off capability with SCALP, but the SCALP India will get will have much lesser range thanks to MTCR. Gripen has similar capability with Taurus and Rafale can also carry SCALP.

2. Where the F 16/18 has an advantage is in cheaper Guided munitions as more are cleared to use with them than the Typhoon. Typhoon may get this capability in the future, but bar the Germans and Austrians the other Typhoon users have F 35 or F 15 to do the A2G job, so integration may be slowish.

3. In A2A despite the Typhoons claims of superiority the Rafale has had favourable exchange rates in all the recent exercises. The reason being much lower RCS, Spectra and OSF. All the Euro Canards including Gripen will get Meteor infact Gripen is the test platform for the Meteor.

4. Is ALARM still being produced ? HARM is. But ALARM is clearly better because of its loitering feature.



My dear johnny m,
With all due respect, we REALLY need to get things into perspective.................. :D
Feel free to respond and correct me if I am wrong

1.Scalp does not violate MTCR because its range is less than 300km and almost the same as SLAM-ER, so no reason why India would get a scaled down Scalp (Storm Shadow). Meanwhile Scalp Naval Version is under development and it will have a very long range and it is not for sale to OUTSIDERS like us Indians!!!! As per Gripen and Taurus combo,let me tell u friend Taurus has 500 km+ range and hence not for sale!!! 8)

2. True US weapons are cost effective but Euro is NOW at an all time low.........

3. As per most open source info Typhoon has the lowest RCS among all fourth gen fighters!I really don't know if Rafale has dominated in excercises! :eek: would be nice if you could throw in a couple of links..........................

4. ALARM is very much under production to the best of my knowledge......... :|


1. It does have a range more than 300 KM and this is the reason why UAE got a customized vairant with a lower range called the Black Shaheen. This will probably be the version offered to India albeit under a different name. Rafale and Mirage 2000s can carry it as well. There is no reason why a range limited Taurus will not be on offer.

2. Which can change in future. At the moment the American types have better A2G capability.

3. Well Kindly provide sources claiming Typhoon has lower RCS, afaik there are no accurate sources all the MRCA competitors bar the MIG 35 and F 16 claim very low RCS. As for links how about this to start with - http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpo ... tcount=548. http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpo ... tcount=555. http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showth ... 19&page=19 Will give more if you have problems with that.

4. Well My doubt arises from the MBDA website where there is no clickable link for the ALARM - http://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda/site/r ... s_229.html. May be coding error may be its not on offer anymore.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby akshay » 03 Jul 2010 23:42

Hey BRfites

Its good to be back ...ive been reading all over for news on the MRCA and after reading, i can say , well there is no news..GOI has done a good job on secrecy ..

though keep the threads flowing ..await all your updates

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 04 Jul 2010 07:57

Eurofighter Tranche 3B Negotiations Begin, While Upgrades Continue
The Eurofighter consortium in May submitted a proposal for the final batch of Eurofighters to be built for the four partner nations under the original contract. Tranche 3 was to have been contracted as a single batch, but was split in half to appease budget-cut-hungry politicians. Now the fight begins for the final 124 aircraft in Tranche 3B. Eurofighter is seeking a decision by the end of next year, which will allow production to run on seamlessly from the end of Tranche 3A. Currently Typhoon production is running at its peak rate of 60 aircraft per year.

In the meantime, early production aircraft built in Blocks 1 and 2 are going through the R2 upgrade process that brings them to Block 5 standard. RAF aircraft are being modified at BAE Systems' Warton plant in Lancashire, England, which has just passed the halfway milestone, having completed 22 of the 43 conversions.


Wow! 60/yr :eek: Is that the highest production rate of all the aircrafts in competition?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 04 Jul 2010 08:07

US offers top-of-line weapons to India

As India inches closer to finalising the purchase of 126 fighter aircraft, the US has offered India top of the line defence weapon systems. The Pentagon has said that three agreements that are currently being negotiated between India and the US would allow the country to share key American technologies. “Pentagon is working with India to put three foundational agreements in place with New Delhi that would allow American frontline technologies to be shared with the country,” top Pentagon official Michele Flournoy was quoted as saying.

Her comments come as India is in the final stages of finalising the $10 billion deal to buy 126 fighter aircrafts. US companies Boeing with its F-18 super hornet and Lockheed Martin with its F-16 fighting Falcons are among the bidders for the contract. Making a strong pitch for awarding of the contract to the US companies, Pentagon official Michele Flournoy pushed for US solutions for India’s defence needs” and said India should opt for American fighter jets as it would pave the way for “more effective protection of mutual security interest in the future” .

“Today, two American companies are among the leading competitors for the $10 billion sale of 126 advanced fighter aircraft to the Indian Air Force, currently the world’s biggest defence tender..."


Which 3 agreements is she talking about?? EUMA has already been signed.. CISMOA is one that is the obvious other..but 3 other?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby David Siegel » 04 Jul 2010 08:51

The 3rd One is: India cannot use this weapon against America's ally in fight against Terrorism- Pakistan

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Viv S » 04 Jul 2010 11:00

Asit P wrote:
Philip wrote:While we were pussyfooting with the project,the Sino-Pak JF-17 is a reality entering service in both countries.It may be inferior,but if there is a conflict tomorrow it will be available to the enemy unlike the LCA.


Philip, LSP 4 is fitted with state of the art Avionics, as well as a very capably radar. Hence, if needed, it can be put to war tomorrow. May I now know the radar which is used by JF 17 at the moment? Moreover, has it ever fired any missile or dropped any bomb? If not, then how can you confidently say that JF 17 can be used in a conflict tomorrow?


The first dozen being delivered are without a radar AFAIK, basically functioning as a bomb truck until retrofitted with one. And since the Tejas will enter service with the IAF early next year, their delivery schedules aren't that much apart.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby JTull » 04 Jul 2010 12:12

shukla wrote:Eurofighter Tranche 3B Negotiations Begin, While Upgrades Continue


Wow! 60/yr :eek: Is that the highest production rate of all the aircrafts in competition?


Could fill MRCA contract in 2 years if bought off the shelf! :shock:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby naird » 04 Jul 2010 13:06

^^ is there a possibility that the production is 'ON' in multiple countries ? This is a insanely high number of aircraft in a year !

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kanson » 05 Jul 2010 09:37

Rafale IR Signature

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOUVdHscPC0
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOUVdHscPC0[/youtube]
Last edited by Kanson on 05 Jul 2010 09:55, edited 1 time in total.

kit
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby kit » 05 Jul 2010 09:45

David Siegel wrote:The 3rd One is: India cannot use this weapon against America's ally in fight against Terrorism- Pakistan




If true.,then why buy if at all ?

shukla
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 05 Jul 2010 09:49

JTull wrote:
shukla wrote:Eurofighter Tranche 3B Negotiations Begin, While Upgrades Continue


Wow! 60/yr :eek: Is that the highest production rate of all the aircrafts in competition?


Could fill MRCA contract in 2 years if bought off the shelf! :shock:


Well, at least the first 18 'ready to fly' should be here pretty soon after signing the contract..

johnny_m
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby johnny_m » 05 Jul 2010 12:18

The 3rd One is: India cannot use this weapon against America's ally in fight against Terrorism- Pakistan


Greeks and Turks have been going at it with American weapons for years. Don't really matter the Yanks themselves know that we may use it against Pakistan, the agreements are there to squeeze our balls if we go against them in bigger issues. :lol:

Philip
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 05 Jul 2010 15:15

Yes,Prof. Pradyut Das (VAYU).
"No one will acknowledge.." is in AWST,not my words.Another issue has Russia's plans for its transports,reviving AN-124,IL-76,etc.,production.This one also has news of our AURA UCAV project and the accelrating delivery/plans fror the Embraer platforms for our smaller (indigenous radar) AWACS aircraft.We need "20" quote.

There is another scathing piece in VAYU by a retd. Gr.Capt. about the news that we now want to put a rescue parachute onto the HT-32 (whose engine is known to conk out at will!)! He says that we are becoming the laughing stock of the aviation world with such ridiculous ideas,instead of getting a reliable trainer either imporrted or designed and built at home.He chews up the NAL for wanting to build a business jet when Saras has crashed due to faulty design and the lack of foresight even by the IAF regarding a basic trainer.Comparisons with 40 yrs. ago and Prentice trainers.In short,his piece draws attention to our lofty ambitions without getting our fundamentals right.

Another fine article is by AM (retd.)Philip Rajkumar about his tsk of evaluating the AJT (Alfa Jet and Hawk) decades ago,lots of info about spins and the characteristics of each aircraft,his report sent in saw a decision taken only 20 yrs. later as after the Bofors scandal broke,no babu was willing to put pen to paper.

PS:As for those insinuations...

К инсинуациям, что я - российский агент, я могу только сказать NYET! Больше такие замечания будут видеть обидчика, посланного прямо прочь Sibera, благодаря моему хорошему старому приятелю, премьер-министру Путину, и питались диетой сырого картофеля, без Stolichnya и никакого Natashas для компании, Da?

darshhan
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby darshhan » 05 Jul 2010 16:14

Philip , Antonov which produces AN 124 is a Ukrainian company and not a Russian one.I doubt if Russia has any control over their programs.

aditya.agd
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby aditya.agd » 05 Jul 2010 16:27

Gripen with EJ200 will be a good combination for IAF. Other than Gripen, technically, Rafale will have lowest lifecycle costs.

aditya.agd
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby aditya.agd » 05 Jul 2010 16:28

Gripen = Tejas MkII

Then why would IAF go in for Gripen?

Philip
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 05 Jul 2010 16:44

Drashan,the rteport says that the Russians have in consultation with their former Soviet buddies who had the plants in their countries,formulated the manufacture of the AN-124,upgraded IL-76s,etc. in new Russian production centres,with the AN-124s arriving within 3 years time.Transport aircraft production is being given a huge boost and even the AN-70 might see extra orders.

NRao
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 05 Jul 2010 17:23

Sorry Philip,

I would suggest that you provide:
1. The URL (if possible - it is not always possible to do so)

For sure:
2. The issue - with dates and/or web site (which is #1)
3. Title of article, and
4. Author of article
5. DIRECT and COMPLETE quotes from the article

and THEN your comment (if you so desire).

(The problem as I see it is you mix and match the content of an article and your views.)

Let us try that with the "rescue parachute" and An-124 articles.

NRao
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 05 Jul 2010 17:27


andy B
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby andy B » 05 Jul 2010 17:44

Alright here's something for all joo natasha loving abduls out there :mrgreen:

Article on the MIG 35 and 29K in this months Air International enjoy

http://ifile.it/w7xfebs/MIG_35.zip


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