This reminds me of a funny incident. On a Paki cricket forum, all Pakis residing in US were directing their anger against US when Faisal Shahzad was caught. One dude suggested they all leave US and shift to some other country. Everybody started giving suggestions from Malaysia to KSA except of course.... Pakistanshiv wrote:partha wrote:I think BRF is accessible from TSP.I get the feeling from parleying on certain sites that a whole lot of them are RAPE living outside Pakistan.
+1Jaspreet wrote:
Otherwise any newbie who comes here will see nothing but fanaticism, or Hindutva, or jingoism or all three depending upon what they want to see.
Suggestions onlee: some things to explain:- in simple language, raising and anticipating the objections that a good WKK would have imparted.shiv wrote:Jaspreet I am willing to help you here. Please make some suggestions as to what the thread should contain. We can think of name if we can decide on content.Jaspreet wrote:I am suggesting that there should be another thread to convert newbies to our point of view.
Wow! Now that is REAL progress.abhishek_sharma wrote:Hafiz Saeed barred from leaving Pakistan
http://thehindu.com/news/international/ ... 502731.ece
On front line in war on terrorism, it's spy vs. spy among supposed friends CIA and Pakistan
By Adam Goldman (CP) – 40 minutes ago
WASHINGTON — A Pakistani man approached CIA officers in Islamabad last year, offering to give up secrets of his country's closely guarded nuclear program. To prove he was a trustworthy source, he claimed he had spent nuclear fuel rods.
But the CIA had its doubts. Before long, the suspicious officers had concluded that Pakistan's spy agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence, was trying to run a double agent against the them.
CIA officers alerted their Pakistani counterparts. Pakistan promised to look into the matter and, with neither side acknowledging the man was a double agent, the affair came to a polite, quiet end.
The incident, recounted by former U.S. officials, underscores the schizophrenic relationship with one of America's most crucial counterterrorism allies. Publicly, officials credit Pakistani collaboration with helping kill and capture numerous al-Qaida and Taliban leaders. Privately, that relationship is often marked by mistrust as the two countries wage an aggressive spy battle against each other.
The CIA has repeatedly tried to penetrate the ISI and learn more about Pakistan's nuclear program; and the ISI has mounted its own operations to gather intelligence on the CIA's counterterrorism activities in the tribal lands and figure out what the CIA knows about the nuclear program.
Bumping up against the ISI is a way of life for the CIA in Pakistan, the agency's command centre for recruiting spies in the country's lawless tribal regions …………………………..
The Canadian Press
Actually the first post in every pious TSP thread contains a lot of very high-quality information about Pakistaniyat for newbies.shiv wrote:Jaspreet I am willing to help you here. Please make some suggestions as to what the thread should contain. We can think of name if we can decide on content.Jaspreet wrote:I am suggesting that there should be another thread to convert newbies to our point of view.
The END OF PAKISTAN is the one which needs push.lsunil wrote:
The current and the coming generation of pakistan is highly cultivated in hate. They are so volatile that they'll doubt their own people in suspicion as it has become apparent now. The RAPE probably thinks that pakistan might be coming to an end. So who ever occupies pakistan will have to deal with a radicalised lot. What a bunch of simple minded fools.
Pakistan does not need to do anything extra. It is under obligation to implement the UNSC Resolution 1822 (2008) with regard to Professor saheb because on Dec. 10, 2008, the venerable Professor saheb was notified as a terrorist by the AL-QAIDA AND TALIBAN SANCTIONS COMMITTEE of the UNSC. The UNSC Resolution 1822 (2008) details what steps a Government has to follow in such a case.abhishek_sharma wrote:Hafiz Saeed barred from leaving Pakistan
Does one need to comment any further ?My experience of Iranians and Pakistanis in the west: This may be stereotyping, but It seems to be generally true.asprinzl wrote:I found something funny. The people of Iran...the more Persian they become...the further they run away from Islam. The people of Pak-is-Satan...the more closer they get to Islam...the more Persian they want to be.
Persian women,in my opinion,are among the prettiest in this world.And just like their lebanese and turkish counterparts,they have that 'rebel' attitude running in their veins.Some of my friends who have been to Turkey tell me that women smoke right outside mosques to piss off maulanas. And Iranian women though forced to wear hijab,make it a point to display a bit of their hair to tick off their religious police.Gagan wrote:My experience of Iranians and Pakistanis in the west: This may be stereotyping, but It seems to be generally true.asprinzl wrote:I found something funny. The people of Iran...the more Persian they become...the further they run away from Islam. The people of Pak-is-Satan...the more closer they get to Islam...the more Persian they want to be.
Iranians:
1. They love their alcohol and gosht, and women. (They are even more TFTA - fairer and prettier than northern pakistanis: This is something that the paklurkers need to ponder about)
2. While they are moderately religious, they almost never show it.
3. Most of them have twitter and facebook accounts that are not traceable to their names and emails. Because when they go back to Iran (usually via cyprus - their gateway to the world perhaps because Iran is under sanctions), they are asked to give their email addresses and passwords and their emails, twitter and facebook accounts are checked for anti-government propaganda by them. Talk about repressive regimes!
4. Most of them are strongly against the Mullahs and the Ahmedinijad government, and the older ones say they miss the days of the shah. (BTW the Shah's family lives just outside Washington dc). Weather this is the standard reply that Iranians come out with because they are in Umreeka or is the hard truth they live by is left to each case individually. But Iranians when they are drunk are very abusive of Mr Ahmedinijad and the mullahs.
Pakistanis in the west.
FWIW
Arun - I believe my ebook on Pakistan fulfills many of these conditions. It was written specifically for the Indian keeping in mind that a WKK might read it. Chapter 1 and the last chapter sum it up.A_Gupta wrote:
0. Overview of who really runs things in Pakistan + the other visible and invisible factions.
b. The necessity of a hostile India to Pakistan to keep the Army in power in Pakistan.
c. The necessity of a hostile India to Pakistan to keep the provinces in their place; the centrality of Pakjab.
d. Pakistani methods of resource extraction from the 3.5 friends.
e. The existing and ongoing indoctrination of the Pakistani public and the effects it has.
3. The necessary and sufficient conditions for a more normal (perhaps hostile but definitely non-murderous) neighbor to India's west.
My expectation is that Pakistan after nine years -- because theoretically Pakistan is part of the anti-terror alliance -- they have to begin to take some serious measures against terrorism," he said.
GOI should declare that it does not recognise Baluchistan as part of TSP, it is a disputed territory and it should go for a referendum 10 years after withdrawal of all troops from that region...and push other countries to do the same...that would cook TSP goose...had "tremendous evidence" that Pakistani authorities allowed Al-Qaeda and other terror organisations to operate on the country's soil and had presented it to Islamabad "many times".
WASHINGTON – A Pakistani man approached CIA officers in Islamabad last year, offering to give up secrets of his country's closely guarded nuclear program. To prove he was a trustworthy source, he claimed to possess spent nuclear fuel rods.
But the CIA had its doubts. Before long, the suspicious officers had concluded that Pakistan's spy agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence, was trying to run a double agent against them.
CIA officers alerted their Pakistani counterparts. Pakistan promised to look into the matter and, with neither side acknowledging the man was a double agent, the affair came to a polite, quiet end.
The incident, recounted by former U.S. officials, underscores the schizophrenic relationship with one of America's most crucial counterterrorism allies. Publicly, officials credit Pakistani collaboration with helping kill and capture numerous al-Qaida and Taliban leaders. Privately, that relationship is often marked by mistrust as the two countries wage an aggressive spy battle against each other.
The CIA has repeatedly tried to penetrate the ISI and learn more about Pakistan's nuclear program. The ISI has mounted its own operations to gather intelligence on the CIA's counterterrorism activities in the tribal lands and figure out what the CIA knows about the nuclear program.
Bumping up against the ISI is a way of life for the CIA in Pakistan, the agency's command center for recruiting spies in the country's lawless tribal regions. Officers there also coordinate Predator drone airstrikes, the CIA's most successful and lethal counterterrorism program. The armed, unmanned planes take off from a base inside Pakistani Baluchistan known as "Rhine."
"Pakistan would be exceptionally uncomfortable and even hostile to American efforts to muck about in their home turf," said Graham Fuller, an expert on Islamic fundamentalism who spent 25 years with the CIA, including a stint as Kabul station chief.
That means incidents such as the one involving nuclear fuel rods must be resolved delicately and privately.
"It's a crucial relationship," CIA spokesman George Little said. "We work closely with our Pakistani partners in fighting the common threat of terrorism. They've been vital to the victories achieved against al-Qaida and its violent allies. And they've lost many people in the battle against extremism. No one should forget that."
Details about the CIA's relationship with Pakistan were recounted by nearly a dozen former and current U.S. and Pakistani intelligence officials, all of whom spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the matter.
An ISI official denied that the agency runs double agents to collect information about the CIA's activities. He said the two agencies have a good working relationship and such allegations were meant to create friction between them.
But the CIA became so concerned by a rash of cases involving suspected double agents in 2009, it re-examined the spies it had on the payroll in the Afghanistan-Pakistan region. The internal investigation revealed about a dozen double agents, stretching back several years. Most of them were being run by Pakistan. Other cases were deemed suspicious. The CIA determined the efforts were part of an official offensive counterintelligence program being run by Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha, the ISI's spy chief.
Pakistan's willingness to run double agents against the U.S. is particularly troubling to some in the CIA because of the country's ties to longtime Osama bin Laden ally Gulbuddin Hekmatyar (gool-boo-DEEN' hek-mat-YAR') and to the Haqqani network, a Pakistan-based Taliban faction also linked to al-Qaida.
In addition to its concerns about Pakistan's nuclear program, the CIA continues to press the Pakistanis to step up their military efforts in North Waziristan, the tribal region where Hekmatyar and Haqqani are based.
CIA Director Leon Panetta talked with Pasha about ISI's relationship with militants last year, reiterating the same talking points his predecessor, Gen. Michael Hayden, had delivered. Panetta told Pasha he had needed to take on militant groups, including those such as Hekmatyar and Haqqani, a former U.S. intelligence official said.
But the U.S. can only demand so much from an intelligence service it can't live without.
Recruiting agents to track down and kill terrorists and militants is a top priority for the CIA, and one of the clandestine service's greatest challenges. The drones can't hit their targets without help finding them. Such efforts would be impossible without Pakistan's blessing, and the U.S. pays about $3 billion a year in military and economic aid to keep the country stable and cooperative.
"We need the ISI and they definitely know it," said C. Christine Fair, an assistant professor at Georgetown University's Center for Peace and Security Studies. "They are really helping us in several critical areas and directly undermining us in others."
Pakistan has its own worries about the Americans. During the first term of the Bush administration, Pakistan became enraged after it shared intelligence with the U.S., only to learn the CIA station chief passed that information to the British.
The incident caused a serious row, one that threatened the CIA's relationship with the ISI and deepened the levels of distrust between the two sides. Pakistan almost threw the CIA station chief out of the country.
A British security official said the incident was "a matter between Pakistan and America."
The spate of Pakistani double agents has raised alarm bells in some corners of the agency, while others merely say it's the cost of doing business in Pakistan. They say double agents are as old as humanity and point to the old spy adage: "There are friendly nations but no friendly intelligence services."
"The use of double agents is something skilled intelligence services and the better terrorist groups like al-Qaida, Hezbollah, provisional Irish Republican Army and the Tamil Tigers have regularly done. It's not something that should be a surprise," said Daniel Byman, a foreign policy expert at the Saban Center at Brookings Institution.
Nowhere is the tension greater than in the tribal areas, the lawless regions that have become the front line in what Panetta described Sunday as "the most aggressive operations in the history of the CIA."
The area has become what's known in spy parlance as a wilderness of mirrors, where nothing is what it appears. The CIA recruits people to spy on al-Qaida and militant groups. So does the ISI. Often, they recruit the same people. That means the CIA must constantly consider where a spy's allegiance lies: With the U.S.? With Pakistan? With the enemy?
Pakistan rarely — if at all — has used its double agents to feed the CIA bad information, the former U.S. officials said. Rather, the agents were just gathering intelligence on American operations, seeing how the CIA responded and how information flowed.
Former CIA officials say youth and inexperience among a new generation of American officers may have contributed to the difficulties of operating in the tribal regions, where the U.S. is spending a massive amount of money to cultivate sources.
After the 2001 terrorist attacks, the CIA dispatched many young officers to Pakistan and Afghanistan to recruit al-Qaida spies. Young officers sometimes unwittingly recruited people who had been on Pakistan's payroll for years, all but inviting Pakistan to use their longtime spies as double agents, former CIA officials said.
The Pakistanis "are steeped in that area," Fuller said "They would be tripping over a lot of the same people."
Many former CIA officials believe a lack of experience among agency officers led to the bombing in Khost, Afghanistan, last year that killed seven CIA employees. The CIA thought it had a source who could provide information about al-Qaida's No. 2, Ayman al-Zawahiri, who was believed to be hiding in the tribal lands. But the person turned out to be a double agent wired with explosives.
Ironically, the CIA steered the source to Khost because officers were concerned ISI would spot him if they brought him to Islamabad for questioning or possibly even arrest him because he was an undocumented Arab.
But inexperience isn't always the problem.
One example of how the suspicious relationship constrains operations was the CIA's base in the remote town of Miram Shah in North Waziristan. U.S. military and CIA officers worked with the ISI together there, under the protection of the Pakistani army, which kept the base locked down.
The two intelligence agencies sometimes conducted joint operations against al-Qaida but rarely shared information, a former CIA officer said. Haqqani spies were well aware the CIA was working there, and the base frequently took mortar and rocket fire.
Two former CIA officers familiar with the base said the Americans there mainly exercised and "twiddled their thumbs." Just getting out of the base was so difficult, U.S. personnel gave it the nickname "Shawshank" after the prison in the movie "The Shawshank Redemption."
The CIA closed the base last year for safety reasons. None of that tension ever spilled into the public eye. It's the nature of intelligence-gathering.
Neela wrote:Admins,
will it help if we have a TSP-101 thread ?
I can imagine a thread where some prominent aspects of Pakistan are highlighted in every post. Some thing like this:
Example:
The elimination and decline of minorities in Pakistan since 1947.
<Paragraph 1>
<Paragraph 2>
<Paragraph 3>
<Further reading : links provided here>
I think all of us can contribute. Should take 2-3 weeks at max to get about 20 posts.
This gives newbies a chance to quickly get up to speed.
The current thread as it is is like hitting a WKK with a hammer (first post) and then pushing him into the deep end of the pool!
No kidding. Anyone remember this incident in bangalore?Ambar wrote:Persian women... just like their lebanese and turkish counterparts,they have that 'rebel' attitude running in their veins.Some of my friends who have been to Turkey tell me that women smoke right outside mosques to piss off maulanas. And Iranian women though forced to wear hijab,make it a point to display a bit of their hair to tick off their religious police.
Apparently, the women got scared after the media aired their unpixel'd faces on television which bought the iranian officials to the scene. Their behaviour was subject to capital punishment back home in iran. I think there was a report somewhere where they refused to go back to iran."When I stopped the car using a barricade, the woman attacked me again on the chest, kicked and bit me in the hand," he said.
[...]
The two women were taken into custody. But the drama wasn't over yet. At the police station, Fatima allegedly attacked a mediaperson and threw a chair against the wall.
TSP-101 in the form of FAQs in the chronological order of Pakistani formation to present. Some sample FAQsNeela wrote:Admins,
will it help if we have a TSP-101 thread ?
I can imagine a thread where some prominent aspects of Pakistan are highlighted in every post. Some thing like this:
Example:
The elimination and decline of minorities in Pakistan since 1947.
<Paragraph 1>
<Paragraph 2>
<Paragraph 3>
<Further reading : links provided here>
I think all of us can contribute. Should take 2-3 weeks at max to get about 20 posts.
This gives newbies a chance to quickly get up to speed.
The current thread as it is is like hitting a WKK with a hammer (first post) and then pushing him into the deep end of the pool!
If the US is forced to leave Afghan with all the shenanigans of Pukes and Pukes continue to collaborate with AQ/Taleban to hurt the west, I think we will see the US taking the ultimate action on Puke's crown jewels. Any one agree/disagree?krishnan wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100706/ap_ ... a_pakistan
WASHINGTON – A Pakistani man approached CIA officers in Islamabad last year, offering to give up secrets of his country's closely guarded nuclear program. To prove he was a trustworthy source, he claimed to possess spent nuclear fuel rods.
But the CIA had its doubts. Before long, the suspicious officers had concluded that Pakistan's spy agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence, was trying to run a double agent against them.
CIA officers alerted their Pakistani counterparts. Pakistan promised to look into the matter and, with neither side acknowledging the man was a double agent, the affair came to a polite, quiet end.
The incident, recounted by former U.S. officials, underscores the schizophrenic relationship with one of America's most crucial counterterrorism allies. Publicly, officials credit Pakistani collaboration with helping kill and capture numerous al-Qaida and Taliban leaders. Privately, that relationship is often marked by mistrust as the two countries wage an aggressive spy battle against each other.
The CIA has repeatedly tried to penetrate the ISI and learn more about Pakistan's nuclear program. The ISI has mounted its own operations to gather intelligence on the CIA's counterterrorism activities in the tribal lands and figure out what the CIA knows about the nuclear program.
Neela & JamesB, good idea. There is no doubt that it would be a good source of information for beginners. They don't need to dig deep into links in Post # 1 here for answers to their basic questions. It is a level set from which beginners can leap into this esoteric thread. However, we need to guard against the the boundaries getting blurred between this thread and the 101 thread. The 101 thread has to have a strict format and set of rules. For example, there should be no discussion on current issues. Will it be in Q&A form ? Can we formulate the guidelines please ? What if there is a discussion on whether Jinnah was secular or not ? What message does a newbie get in that case ? Without prejudice to a decision on the 101 thread, can I ask for more clarity ?James B wrote:TSP-101 in the form of FAQs in the chronological order of Pakistani formation to present. Some sample FAQsNeela wrote:Admins,
will it help if we have a TSP-101 thread ?
I can imagine a thread where some prominent aspects of Pakistan are highlighted in every post. Some thing like this:
Example:
The elimination and decline of minorities in Pakistan since 1947.
<Paragraph 1>
<Paragraph 2>
<Paragraph 3>
<Further reading : links provided here>
1) Was Jinnah Secular??
2) Is Pakistan Secular??
and so on
Once this TSP-101 is finalized, this can be widely disseminated through social networking, chain e-mails, blogging etc..
Agree to this:SSridhar wrote:
Once this TSP-101 is finalized, this can be widely disseminated through social networking, chain e-mails, blogging etc.
Neela & JamesB, good idea. There is no doubt that it would be a good source of information for beginners. They don't need to dig deep into links in Post # 1 here for answers to their basic questions. It is a level set from which beginners can leap into this esoteric thread. However, we need to guard against the the boundaries getting blurred between this thread and the 101 thread. The 101 thread has to have a strict format and set of rules. For example, there should be no discussion on current issues. Will it be in Q&A form ? Can we formulate the guidelines please ? What if there is a discussion on whether Jinnah was secular or not ? What message does a newbie get in that case ? Without prejudice to a decision on the 101 thread, can I ask for more clarity ?
It could lead to discussions and the Breapers have another area to cover...something we can avoid.Stan_Savljevic wrote:^^ May be someone can ask a question, interested folks can answer. And along the lines of Bourbaki, someone can refine the answer. Possible, but needs huge discipline.
They were begging... allah ke naam pe ...partha wrote:
It looks like a cabinet meeting. It looks like they are praying.
How ridiculous!
