J & K news and discussion

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 02 Jul 2010 23:56

It could be done differently... Immediately after such an incident create massive and harsh response.. Only fear of Hindu retribution will move the wheels of WKKs, Media, Govt, and even Islamists.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 03 Jul 2010 02:22

Shankk wrote
In short polytheism as practiced by Hindus is the root cause of various divisions amongst them be it the language, attire, sub culture etc.

Polytheism is perhaps not the main thing : it is simply one aspect of the basic misunderstanding about the nature of "tolerance". I have had a bad name in trying to promote the consciousness of belonging to at least one identity that takes precedence over all others when the "one" identity comes in conflict with the "other identities". We do not need to displace all the separate identities to bring in that sense of belonging. But we need to establish a firm preference pattern. One can worship Shiva in rudra form, or another in Nataraja form, Vishnu as Gopala or Jagannatha, that difference can manifest in intense debates about the "better" form in peacetime, but when the "Hindu" identity is being attacked, the commonness of "Hindu" should take precedence to present a uniform reaction.

Shankk · Post by **Shankk** » 03 Jul 2010 09:09

Brihaspati ji, please let us not bring in deep philosophical discussion in here. Call me shallow if you want but my intent is simply to discuss the practical aspects of polytheism as are evidently decapitating Hindus from a meaningful response to what they see as attack on their way of life.

we need to establish a firm preference pattern. One can worship Shiva in rudra form, or another in Nataraja form, Vishnu as Gopala or Jagannatha, that difference can manifest in intense debates about the "better" form in peacetime, but when the "Hindu" identity is being attacked, the commonness of "Hindu" should take precedence to present a uniform reaction.

That exactly is the bone of contention for me. Praying to anything and everything and calling it God or a form of God and then pretending it is something really profound has its pitfall. You expect the commonness of Hindu identity should invoke a uniform response. How many times have you really seen it happening? Do you not see people b!tching constantly on this forum about how Hindus are being crushed systematically. So many attacks on this country and its identity, slavery and all the possible subjugation known to human and in year 2010 you are still faced with an extremely basic puzzle of getting Hindus together. If this ordeal of centuries cannot bring people together then do you think discussing more facets of Hinduism will do the trick?

You know what? I totally disagree with you about uniform reaction by Hindus. Not sure what your God tells you about this but My Hindu god tells me that all the people in this world are my brothers and sisters, including our Pakistani brothers. They are just misled and eat meat making them aggressive. Please do not complain about they attacking you. They just have different path to reach the same goal. They also have a god inside them.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 03 Jul 2010 18:31

Shankk wrote

Brihaspati ji, please let us not bring in deep philosophical discussion in here. Call me shallow if you want but my intent is simply to discuss the practical aspects of polytheism as are evidently decapitating Hindus from a meaningful response to what they see as attack on their way of life.

Shankk ji, with all humility - that itself is a deep philosophical question! Philosophy in its broadest western implication is "world-view". That includes practical implication/approach towards all that is faced in life. What I tried to say was that just "polytheism" is not perhaps the sole culprit for the absence of proper "response".

That exactly is the bone of contention for me. Praying to anything and everything and calling it God or a form of God and then pretending it is something really profound has its pitfall. You expect the commonness of Hindu identity should invoke a uniform response. How many times have you really seen it happening? Do you not see people b!tching constantly on this forum about how Hindus are being crushed systematically. So many attacks on this country and its identity, slavery and all the possible subjugation known to human and in year 2010 you are still faced with an extremely basic puzzle of getting Hindus together. If this ordeal of centuries cannot bring people together then do you think discussing more facets of Hinduism will do the trick?

Since we are on the Kashmir thread - lets look at how Islam "overwhelmed" Kashmiri Hindus. Was it because of "polytheism"? Not really, because at the time finally a Muslim rulership managed to capture power, all Kashmir was "Shaiva". in fact only one strand of "Shaivism" prevailed at that period. Moreover, the change was initiated not by the "different" "priests" affiliated to "different polytheistic" strands who collaborated or failed to put up an united front - but by the "Kings" such as Harsha.

You know what? I totally disagree with you about uniform reaction by Hindus. Not sure what your God tells you about this but My Hindu god tells me that all the people in this world are my brothers and sisters, including our Pakistani brothers. They are just misled and eat meat making them aggressive. Please do not complain about they attacking you. They just have different path to reach the same goal. They also have a god inside them.

First, I may not have any personal "God"! Second, are you not contradicting yourself? Why should your "God" who tells you to tolerate anything and everything in the name of so-called only-and-pure-tolerance form of Hinduism be the "only God" of "polytheistic" Hindus? Look at Shivas' name of Tripurari - destroyer and enemy of three cities using the "Meru" mountain is his bow. Yes, pragmatically many will say that it denoted the prehistoric experience of earthquakes in the northern Himalayas around the Pamir knot - but the concept of a violent "God" who takes retribution against "cities" is there - and with perhaps good realistic connections to the region of "Kashmir"!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 03 Jul 2010 18:51

Polytheism is not a problem. If one analyzes the historical spectrum carefully, we always see a phenomenon that is consistent. It is the infighting within elite groups that is the primary cause. Elite who feel cheated out of what they feel "legitimate" power by other "elite", secretly nurse a grudge and collaborate with the enemy.

This intense hatred is of such magnitude that they are ready to destroy their own birth society along with the "guilty" elite. Not polytheism, but perhaps the only fault lay in allowing by-birth-elitism to become institutionalized. Those born into such classes perhaps have a tendency to think that power is their natural birthright, regardless of their qualities. So if somehow they are displaced or disappointed in that expectation, they develop intense hatred for the society that "promised" them so much and gave them "so little". They go and collaborate and even contribute towards the destruction of their own society.

You can see this played out in the transitional Kashmir. There are also versions of stories that the Central Asian adventurer who was employed as a mercenary and then later on captured the throne of Kashmir, had initially wanted to "convert" to Shaivism - but was refused by the priesthood. He was under "inducement' at the same time by Islamic preachers who had been given a free reign by the "Kings", and when refused by Shaiva priests agreed to convert to Islam. Now what induced the priests to refuse him - given that even Shaka Rudradaman was allowed a millenium ago to convert to "Hinduism" - perhaps the rigidity of this later period towards birth origins!

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 03 Jul 2010 21:54

brihaspati wrote: If one analyzes the historical spectrum carefully, we always see a phenomenon that is consistent. It is the infighting within elite groups that is the primary cause. Elite who feel cheated out of what they feel "legitimate" power by other "elite", secretly nurse a grudge and collaborate with the enemy.

This is the most important thing to understand. The Elites who feel cheated out seem to be the most traitors of the country. They could work with the enemy and also go to the foreign land and spread false information about India and Hindus. This has happened even in the last 100 years.

Shankk · Post by **Shankk** » 03 Jul 2010 23:30

Brihaspati ji, kindly do not address me with a ji. There is already an overdose of it for me to read on BRF and do not want to add to it. Simply Shankk is enough. Thank You. If you prefer to be referred by anything specific let me know.

Let us not divide Kashmir from rest of ancient India to see how Kashmir was overwhelmed by Muslims. Why is this division of Hindus as Shaivaites, Vaishnavaites etc. in the first place? Throughout the history of ancient India various Hindu kings fought for their kingdom with foreigners on their own. There are instances of collaboration but the purpose was not to provide a unified Hindu response but rather to protect their kingdom from a larger enemy. They were as divided then as the Hindus are now all thanks to polytheism IMHO. You are right about the elites but I am talking about the common man Hindus. Those poor shaivaites even of one strand were left to defend the whole army of Islam that included Persians, Turks, Pathans, Arabs etc. What were non-shaivaites doing then? Did they think those shaivaites are not even real Hindus like them so why bother save them? Did they think that those foreign invaders are simply followers of a different God, just different path but same goal as them, and have equal rights to propagate their way so why fight them? Let aside those ancient times, even now Pakistanis invoke the name of Islam to get Kasmiris fight with India that is feeding those vary same Kashmiris. Indian muslims are likely to oppose any moves of repelling article 370 to bring Kashmir into mainstream India. Hindus despite being in majority are impotent to take any meaningful measure simply because they lack the unity.

Regarding finding and following the most purest form of Hinduism I am not indicating of mimicking an Abrahamic approach to these issues. This is more of a philosophical discussion and I would prefer to stay away from it. My focus as mentioned earlier is to explore how polytheism is causing problems to Hindus. Solutions of this problem is a different discussion that has been already taking place continuously on this forum.

You mentioned about elites being at the root of the problem. Clearly it is problem to all societies and religions. Despite this problem Islam and Christianity as a way of life are much better positioned today in this world than Hinduism. Why is this elite problem bug and screws Hindus more than anybody else? It is because the nature of elites is very different between Hindus and others. Hindu elites are self centered like the kings who fought for their own kingdom rather than for a cause. Non Hindus too have a long history of elites hijacking the religion for their own agenda but the difference is they have an institution that determines the goals and means to achieve those goals. There is a vast group of followers who have a single point goal and means to achieve those goals backed by the institution. In this scenario even if their elites hijack this institute at times for ulterior motives this institution fights back for its goals. There has been a constant struggle between their elites and their institution. Different non Hindus have different approach to this problem but they never loose sight of the ultimate goal. No matter how selfish their elites are, they do not steer away from that ultimate goal not necessarily because they have interest in it but they need their followers for their own benefit and the followers are MUCH less divided if compared to Hindus.

We have no such institute to fall back on simply because there is no agreement on the goal. Heck we cannot agree on something as basic and fundamental as God then what are the chances of agreeing on the goal?

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 04 Jul 2010 00:04

shankk , I don't believe polyetheism and sectarianism is a problem for Hindus presently.Maybe in past there might have been some issues between different hindu philosophies and sects(although according to me these were not the major causes of hindu defeats).

Yes Hinduism does have divisions because of which it is still unable to put up required resistance against hostile ideologies such as islam and Marxism/maoism/socialism.But these divisions are not sectarian in nature.

In fact the most important division that Hindus face is CASTE.Followed by language,region,state etc.This is my opinion.

Also Remember one thing.Hinduism is very much an open source religion.You can mold it to your specifications(compared to other religions).This is actually an advantage.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 04 Jul 2010 03:19

Shankk wrote
Brihaspati ji, kindly do not address me with a ji. There is already an overdose of it for me to read on BRF and do not want to add to it. Simply Shankk is enough. Thank You. If you prefer to be referred by anything specific let me know.

I add a ji "uniformly" to all by deafult unless they choose otherwise. My own brand of "homogenization". "Brihaspati" will do!

Let us not divide Kashmir from rest of ancient India to see how Kashmir was overwhelmed by Muslims. Why is this division of Hindus as Shaivaites, Vaishnavaites etc. in the first place? Throughout the history of ancient India various Hindu kings fought for their kingdom with foreigners on their own. There are instances of collaboration but the purpose was not to provide a unified Hindu response but rather to protect their kingdom from a larger enemy. They were as divided then as the Hindus are now all thanks to polytheism IMHO.

It will be nearly impossible to prove that "polytheism" was the sole culprit for the apparent disunity of the Hindu military response. But that is a different thread issue perhaps.

You are right about the elites but I am talking about the common man Hindus. Those poor shaivaites even of one strand were left to defend the whole army of Islam that included Persians, Turks, Pathans, Arabs etc. What were non-shaivaites doing then? Did they think those shaivaites are not even real Hindus like them so why bother save them? Did they think that those foreign invaders are simply followers of a different God, just different path but same goal as them, and have equal rights to propagate their way so why fight them? Let aside those ancient times, even now Pakistanis invoke the name of Islam to get Kasmiris fight with India that is feeding those vary same Kashmiris. Indian muslims are likely to oppose any moves of repelling article 370 to bring Kashmir into mainstream India. Hindus despite being in majority are impotent to take any meaningful measure simply because they lack the unity.

Again the history of "commons" not fighting etc will be a complicated issue. There were perhaps many many factors that coincided. But for Kashmir, as far as we can see - no fight between Shaivism and Viashnavism was responsible for the retreat of the "Hindu". Kashmir was one of the last strongholds to fall in the north, by that time all the approaches to Kashmir from the plains were under Muslim armies. The Rajput kingdoms were fighting for survival and had little military power left to mount a coordinated campaign to join up with the Kashmiris. However, resistance was actually there and again from the "commons". That again is another history. But you may be interested in looking up resistance from "Hindu" regional forces and their successful resistance along the northern foothills of the Himalayas from HP to Kashmir against the Delhi Sultanate.

Regarding finding and following the most purest form of Hinduism I am not indicating of mimicking an Abrahamic approach to these issues. This is more of a philosophical discussion and I would prefer to stay away from it. My focus as mentioned earlier is to explore how polytheism is causing problems to Hindus. Solutions of this problem is a different discussion that has been already taking place continuously on this forum.

I guess I am guilty too of from time to time trying to point out the need for a degree of "homogenization", which has already started a near crusade in ideological terms against the very idea of "homogenization" and in favour of more diversity. But even I do not see "polytheism" as the most difficult obstacle towards that homogenization. I realize that any distinction in identity is a potential weakness because others may be able to exploit that weakness, or even the claimant of distinction can hide or justify his own greed or cowardice behind that distinction. However, there is a limit to erasing distinctions, and an extreme erasure is counter-human civilization.

The key is to have the ideological flexibility to recognize when it is time for "homogenization" and when it is time for "diversity". Neither should rule out the other completely as forever banished from future human path.

Now, for India and its most appropriate civilizational inheritor - the "Hindus", it is time for homogenization on the fundamental issues. Polytheism is a minor issue here. More serious issues come from language, regionalism, caste and jati distinctions, and the lack of wisdom to see that symbols and outward forms are creation of humans.

You mentioned about elites being at the root of the problem. Clearly it is problem to all societies and religions. Despite this problem Islam and Christianity as a way of life are much better positioned today in this world than Hinduism. Why is this elite problem bug and screws Hindus more than anybody else? It is because the nature of elites is very different between Hindus and others. Hindu elites are self centered like the kings who fought for their own kingdom rather than for a cause. Non Hindus too have a long history of elites hijacking the religion for their own agenda but the difference is they have an institution that determines the goals and means to achieve those goals. There is a vast group of followers who have a single point goal and means to achieve those goals backed by the institution. In this scenario even if their elites hijack this institute at times for ulterior motives this institution fights back for its goals. There has been a constant struggle between their elites and their institution. Different non Hindus have different approach to this problem but they never loose sight of the ultimate goal. No matter how selfish their elites are, they do not steer away from that ultimate goal not necessarily because they have interest in it but they need their followers for their own benefit and the followers are MUCH less divided if compared to Hindus.

There are many reasons behind their success, and not all of it stems from institutional homogeneity. It is a question of values. These societies explicitly built their ideologies around imperialism, and their single point focus is about subjugation of others and appropriating their resources. Their entire ideology is ultimately about justifying that hunger.

Now it can be a normative question about which one to prefer - a murderous intent turning to imperialist sado masochism or a more nuanced knowledge quest based civilizational approach. Actually, if you track the success periods of both Christianity and Islam - the glory periods are rather short in civilizational terms. Moreover, they are not free from the elite infighting that I mentioned, in fact for regime by regime analysis, Christians and Islamists pack in more intra-elite violence than Hindus can attributed to. Just the early Roman Christian history, the European religious wars, and the early Islamic Caliphate and later empires should do.

Basically, yes their commons, do not steer very far away from the "common goal" - but the reasons? Because those goals translate directly or are a cover for basic biological greed. For most European Christians it is a desperate attempt to construct a superior identity base don skin and race which will justify European imperialism, and for Islamists it is a desperate attempt to claim leadership of the Ummah to pool in the resources of the Ummah to fuel imperialist extraction of non-muslim biological resources - land and women.

Do we want to abandon our more nuanced, knowledge based approach and go for this land+women grab ideologies?

We have no such institute to fall back on simply because there is no agreement on the goal. Heck we cannot agree on something as basic and fundamental as God then what are the chances of agreeing on the goal?

Ah, you have not then studied Christian and Islamist theology! There have been wars and bloodshed based on microscopic confusions about the nature of "God"! But they managed to agree on whacking the "browns" and the "blacks" (both Christian Europeans and the Arab/Persian Islamists saw Indians as "black-faced Hindoo"). So at least for the J&K thread, we can agree on the need to "clear" the Valley and cut it off from Islamabad so dreams of Shariati never rises again - without agreeing on the nature of the "Hindu God"!

ajit_tr · Post by **ajit_tr** » 04 Jul 2010 08:39

Age of the stone wars in Kashmir

So why did the patent insanity of the last few days occur? Why does it happen repeatedly? Why did, day after day, the police and the CRPF shoot dead youngsters who were out protesting, rioting , against the deaths of the day before?

Most Kashmiris would answer that it is because they are under occupation, that the security forces behave as they do, use brute force, as they are the most acute and clear manifestation of the state people are alienated from and resisting. Or, at least, that Kashmiris live in a police state, where, literally, the law allows and supports torture , imprisonment and killings.

Official narrative, of course, invokes the Paksponsored terrorism theme. That, somehow , everything that doesn’t go according to plan in Kashmir has its roots across the border. The other way of looking at things would be to comprehend that essentially there are two competing nationalisms at work, at variance.

And that is why they also represent, though it may come as a surprise, both an awareness of the failure of the separatist leadership as well as the apparent lack of need to have any leaders in order to protest.

Remember, it isn’t just the government that thinks them dangerous, many among the separatist leaders do too. And some have called them everything from miscreants to drug addicts to being Indian agents. But as part of wider Kashmiri society, they are one manifestation of the rage of having suffered incredible violence, of living lives of daily humiliation.

As part of Kashmiri society , they are aware of the doublespeak, the dissembling that is part of the official version of each killing, each act of violence. And they are part, most immediately visible right now, of the dissent against, the political response to, that violence.

There can be no greater absurdity that while that elected state government endorses using force, the army chief speaks of the need to now use politics to deal with the situation.

Using absurd phrases like agitational terrorism or nonviolent terrorism or perpetually seeking to link protests over killings to Pakistan or Islamist groups only widens the rupture between what should be done and what is.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 04 Jul 2010 08:46

Kashmiri or anyone want die at the alter of Ummah , no harm in obliging them. Let them fight to the last male member. Sooner the better.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 04 Jul 2010 11:00

ajit_tr wrote:Age of the stone wars in Kashmir

So why did the patent insanity of the last few days occur? Why does it happen repeatedly? Why did, day after day, the police and the CRPF shoot dead youngsters who were out protesting, rioting , against the deaths of the day before?

You will get bullets onlee when you throw stones, petrol bombs at armed security forces. This phenomena is not unique to Kashmir. Same thing happens in Paris, Israel, Pakistan, even in US (during Vietnam war)

Most Kashmiris would answer that it is because they are under occupation, that the security forces behave as they do, use brute force, as they are the most acute and clear manifestation of the state people are alienated from and resisting. Or, at least, that Kashmiris live in a police state, where, literally, the law allows and supports torture , imprisonment and killings.

It's because Kashmiri muslims are communal, racist, cowardly bunch of wannbe Islamist Ghazis who thought that they could establish an Islamic Ummah after hounding out Kashmiri Hindus. These whinings are just the rants of a coward shaking in impotent fury after their independent Islamic kashmir didn't came out as envisioned. Now that there are no non-muslims left in valley, they've started attacking Amarnath pilgrims.

Official narrative, of course, invokes the Paksponsored terrorism theme. That, somehow , everything that doesn’t go according to plan in Kashmir has its roots across the border. The other way of looking at things would be to comprehend that essentially there are two competing nationalisms at work, at variance.

Ofcourse not everything is Pak sponsored. Islamic intolerance, terrorism is not the sole property of Pakistan

And that is why they also represent, though it may come as a surprise, both an awareness of the failure of the separatist leadership as well as the apparent lack of need to have any leaders in order to protest.

Remember, it isn’t just the government that thinks them dangerous, many among the separatist leaders do too. And some have called them everything from miscreants to drug addicts to being Indian agents. But as part of wider Kashmiri society, they are one manifestation of the rage of having suffered incredible violence, of living lives of daily humiliation.

You don't need charismatic leaders or even money to persuade idle youth (who may or maynot dream of houris in jannat) to join a stoning parade.

As part of Kashmiri society , they are aware of the doublespeak, the dissembling that is part of the official version of each killing, each act of violence. And they are part, most immediately visible right now, of the dissent against, the political response to, that violence.

Yeah right!

There can be no greater absurdity that while that elected state government endorses using force, the army chief speaks of the need to now use politics to deal with the situation.

Even greater absurdity is begging every day for doles from India and still shout "Pakistan Jive" . All of those idealistic non-violent protesters will starve to death within weeks if Indian government stops financing this hellhole's economy

Using absurd phrases like agitational terrorism or nonviolent terrorism or perpetually seeking to link protests over killings to Pakistan or Islamist groups only widens the rupture between what should be done and what is.

What was done in Punjab is what should be done in Kashmir. Maybe more.

arun · Post by **arun** » 04 Jul 2010 11:25

X Posted. A view from Pakistan Occupied Jammu & Kashmir on the rapacious behaviour of the Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan who act as an “Imperial Power” when it comes to exploiting the resources of POK:

Neelam Jhelum Hydroelectric Project - exploitation of Kashmiri resources

sum · Post by **sum** » 04 Jul 2010 11:29

So why did the patent insanity of the last few days occur? Why does it happen repeatedly? Why did, day after day, the police and the CRPF shoot dead youngsters who were out protesting, rioting , against the deaths of the day before?

Simple logic is that even if the people of Bangalore, Kerala wake up everyday and keep throwing stones day in and day out( and targetting the security forces) citing something which happened in some other country or citing previous weeks incidents, the police will undoubtedly fire on them till the mob disperses.

Its only that whatever little sympathy the communal Kashmiris get will not be found from anywhere in India if similar incident happens outside J&K..

ajit_tr · Post by **ajit_tr** » 05 Jul 2010 17:04

Movement in Kashmir indigenous: Mirwaiz

Rejecting Indian Home Minister P. Chidambaram’s charge that Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) is behind recent violent protests in occupied Kashmir, All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC) chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq says that the ongoing movement is indigenous and demonstrations are a manifestation of people’s sentiments.

“It is unfortunate that the Indian home minister has labelled the protesters as hooligans and rioters and remarked that LeT is behind the street protests. Kashmir freedom movement is indigenous which has to be addressed politically,” the Mirwaiz said while talking to reporters at his residence in Srinagar late on Saturday.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Jul 2010 17:33

ajit_tr wrote
Movement in Kashmir indigenous: Mirwaiz

Quote:
Rejecting Indian Home Minister P. Chidambaram’s charge that Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) is behind recent violent protests in occupied Kashmir, All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC) chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq says that the ongoing movement is indigenous and demonstrations are a manifestation of people’s sentiments.

“It is unfortunate that the Indian home minister has labelled the protesters as hooligans and rioters and remarked that LeT is behind the street protests. Kashmir freedom movement is indigenous which has to be addressed politically,” the Mirwaiz said while talking to reporters at his residence in Srinagar late on Saturday.

The Freudian slip come out! Note that he does not say "the home minister", but mentions him as "the Indian home minister". The former would have indicated that he thought of himself and the Kashmir Valley residents as Indians, the latter indicates that he does not think of himself and the Valley Muslims as Indians.

Those who do not think of themselves as Indians can only be guests of India and be subject to Indian inclinations of hospitality. if guests are hostile and create damages to the home, guests are almost always expelled from the home. Sometimes they also have to pay reparations for the damage caused. These are in fact guests who have even expelled members of the host family from their rooms.

Flooding the Valley Muslims with virtual jazyia is a blunder - for this is one guest who has adopted the Islamic ideology of always living off the blood, sweat and tears of the non-Muslim whenever conditions are convenient to do so.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 05 Jul 2010 21:45

As indeginous as Islam is to the valley or whole South Asia and must be dealt with as Holy Prophet (PBUH) dealt with Bannu Quraiza in Medina.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 05 Jul 2010 23:15

Wonder if this has been posted here before.

http://haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx? ... 461&SKIN=B

Another temple destroyed in Kashmir

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 06 Jul 2010 02:16

Miwaiz Umar Fukroo is referrred to as a "moderate". Wonder what is moderate about him? But interesting statement from him that Paki-inspired violence is "indigineous". Technically he is correct in the sense that all the stone throwers are local resident Islamist thugs (but wannabe Pakis). But what he left unsaid is that nerve center is in Rawilpindi who is executing the stone throwing strategy. In other words, but for TSP ensuring that they will raise hell and get into a nuke battle if need be to thwart India from doing what is required: bludgeon the stone throwing mofos to smithreens, the mofos would have long ago settled for a reasonable compromise. And so the old adadge remains: India needs to get these local Islamist thugs by their balls, and then hearts & minds will follow.

But expanding on what Umar Fukroo said, a few years ago, I believe during the Agra summit, someone in the DDM asked Mush about the same thing, namely, terror in the valley is TSP inspired through LET. He said no, its an "indigenous freedom struggle". To which the DDM said, how can it be "indigineous" when it is fomented by LET? He then said said ask the local Kashmiris (meaning Muslims). Bascially, what he said was that the locals welcome LET and hence whatever LET is doing has local sanction and hence "indigenous".

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 06 Jul 2010 03:44

I don't think LET is liked by local Kashmiris. HM with it's "local membership" maybe, but LET seems dubious

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 06 Jul 2010 04:07

^^
You are right, there has been many instances where the LeT and HM cadre have fought each other.

Not much is heard of HM lately, seems like they are almost done.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Jul 2010 04:14

the hizb cyber wing head has been arrested yesterday, per media reports.

Manmeet · Post by **Manmeet** » 06 Jul 2010 15:23

A good read from CRPF perspective.
Seems govt has given 'go ahead' for a free hand.
Today some abduls had been chased and given good thrashing.
Here is an article from a newspaper which seems remained sole voice of abduls in kashmir....
http://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/2010 ... le--16.asp

ajit_tr · Post by **ajit_tr** » 06 Jul 2010 15:32

The Stone War

A stone is a stone, but when it flies midway between a young boy and a soldier in Kashmir, it becomes a political statement.

It is the pent up anger, frustration, and aspiration of an entire generation that crystallizes into a quarter of a brick, a boulder or a pebble. It is a game - of hide and seek, of attack and retreat, of running away from an almost certain death through narrow lanes blinded by tear-smoke, of confronting plastic pellets and live bullets with sharp edged stones. At times, it is a weapon put in rented hands by politicians and even police officials to create chaos or corner their adversary. It is a visible sign of a transition in the contours of the larger Kashmir conflict where young men pick a piece of brick or a rock and not an AK rifle to confront the state. It’s a tool of resistance: a genuine protest to exhibit frustration against political status quo. It’s also an instrument of a conspiracy: a deliberate mischief to create chaos.

ajit_tr · Post by **ajit_tr** » 06 Jul 2010 15:35

PoK leader asks Pak govt to put Kashmir issue on hold

In a major policy shift, the PoK 'Prime Minister' has advised Pakistan government not to link ongoing negotiations with India to resolution of the Kashmir issue, saying this is not the right time as Islamabad's position is "quite weak" due to "internal vulnerabilities".

Raja Farooq Haider suggested that Pakistan should first resolve "small irritants and controversial issues" before finally sorting out the "core issue of Kashmir."

He told 'The News' daily that Pakistan and India should maintain status quo on Kashmir for "some time."

He said he believed that India and Pakistan "should resolve other issues before taking up Kashmir."

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 Jul 2010 21:34

ajit_tr wrote:
It is the pent up anger, frustration, and aspiration of an entire generation that crystallizes into a quarter of a brick, a boulder or a pebble. It is a game - of hide and seek, of attack and retreat, of running away from an almost certain death through narrow lanes blinded by tear-smoke, of confronting plastic pellets and live bullets with sharp edged stones. At times, it is a weapon put in rented hands by politicians and even police officials to create chaos or corner their adversary. It is a visible sign of a transition in the contours of the larger Kashmir conflict where young men pick a piece of brick or a rock and not an AK rifle to confront the state. It’s a tool of resistance: a genuine protest to exhibit frustration against political status quo. It’s also an instrument of a conspiracy: a deliberate mischief to create chaos.

We don't see your principled brothers refusing economic aid as a tool of political protest. It's only a conspiracy to fan the embers of a dying protest.
They well know their fate in paki hands.

You need the kashmiri water and not the kashmiri people.

We have dhimmi turncoats who write crap, it does not follow that it is true.

Look at the collective character of the hurriyat.
Every moron has family members who hold government jobs that have been abjectly begged from the state.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 06 Jul 2010 22:58

The Stone War

A stone is a stone, but when it flies midway between a young boy and a soldier in Kashmir, it becomes a political statement.

It is the pent up anger, frustration, and aspiration of an entire generation that crystallizes into a quarter of a brick, a boulder or a pebble. It is a game - of hide and seek, of attack and retreat, of running away from an almost certain death through narrow lanes blinded by tear-smoke, of confronting plastic pellets and live bullets with sharp edged stones. At times, it is a weapon put in rented hands by politicians and even police officials to create chaos or corner their adversary. It is a visible sign of a transition in the contours of the larger Kashmir conflict where young men pick a piece of brick or a rock and not an AK rifle to confront the state. It’s a tool of resistance: a genuine protest to exhibit frustration against political status quo. It’s also an instrument of a conspiracy: a deliberate mischief to create chaos.

The author of this article, Muzamil Jaleel, is a darling of the west. Recall, he was feted by UK govt to study the Irish Good Friday accord. He is also well feted by "South Asia experts" in US, from the Krapons to Brookings etc; that’s why Islambad Express gives him so much space.

His entire pedantic BS can be summed up in 2 or 3 sentences. He and his Muslim brethren want India to allow them to pursue their dreams of becoming TSPians along the valley itself. India says, and hopefully, despite MMS, will continue to say kiss my ass. India says, short of secession and TSP meddling in the valley affairs, we can sit down and talk and put the past behind us. Stealing Kashmir of course is a neurotic obsession with TSP, and so naturally any deal, any rapprochement between Kashmiri Muslims and India that does not satisfy TSP's neurotic obsession is a non starter. So TSP in collusion with Kashmiri Muslims have tried terror, didn't work, and periodically try to embarrass India with these bogus protests, stone pelting etc. And India returns the protests in kind with the viscous cycle repeating ad nauseum.

So all that Muzamil Jaleel has to come to grips with is that secession is not on the cards. Once that sinks in, and appropriate messages are sent to Indian govt that they are willing to negotiate in good faith, he himself can witness that any protest, any demonstration asking for better governenance, for better schools, better jobs, run of the mill stuff that any ordinary citizen protests about when denied; will be met with garlands, not bullets.

satyam · Post by **satyam** » 06 Jul 2010 23:41

4 civilians killed in Kashmir firing, Srinagar under curfew

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 136116.cms

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 06 Jul 2010 23:55

AFSPA: A Soldier’s Perspective ---- Harinder Singh
http://idsa.in/idsacomments/AFSPAASoldi ... ngh_060710

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 07 Jul 2010 00:15

Moderation note

ajit_itr: You're well aware you're posting a collection of posts that are meant to convey a contrarian opinion and provoke debate. You are obliged to participate in that debate, rather than use articles as a sock puppet to state your position, and say nothing, while others respond strenuously.

Just posting articles and stringing along BRF members in an argument you never respond to, is not a fair use of forum privileges. Either participate, or stop posting articles.

Continuing the same line of manipulative participation will result in:
* your posts being deleted on the basis of trolling behavior, and
* your earning a formal warning; three warnings will result in a ban from the forum.

To other posters, please don't feed such behavior by working yourselves up, unless someone has shown a desire to debate.

anchal · Post by **anchal** » 07 Jul 2010 00:42

Army called in Srinagar late night. I don't know whether the violence is escalating because of coming off of the hand-gloves from the elephant or more steroids from TSP

http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/jul/ ... ed-out.htm

Shankk · Post by **Shankk** » 07 Jul 2010 07:04

Darshan wrote:Yes Hinduism does have divisions because of which it is still unable to put up required resistance against hostile ideologies such as islam and Marxism/maoism/socialism.But these divisions are not sectarian in nature.

In fact the most important division that Hindus face is CASTE.Followed by language,region,state etc.This is my opinion.

Darshan, division amongst Hindus is the primary reason why we have not been able to even address the problem adequately let alone resolve it. If you start digging up and go deep enough you will see a uniformity or a common thread behind this division and that link or thread is intrinsic to Hinduism. Regarding caste division IIRC the conesus on BRF was that it was introduced at least in its current form by the British. However the resistence to foreign ideology started much before that. I will address these issues in this post just allow me club response to you and Brihaspati here to avoid duplicating the post.

Brihaspati wrote:It will be nearly impossible to prove that "polytheism" was the sole culprit for the apparent disunity of the Hindu military response. But that is a different thread issue perhaps.

Kindly point me to the right thread and I will take this discussion over there. I do follow BRF fairly regularly but often it gets too much for me to be on top of it given other constraints.

My contention however is that polytheism is the major reason of division between Hindus. Regarding why Kasmir was captured in those days there are multple reasons and you have aptly noted one of them about the necessacity of predatory religions to appropriate conquered resources. This is just one side of the story. Invaders never fought the Hindu might, they always fought Hindu kings and in fact they used one Hindu king against the other. For those kings their own interests were more important than the cause which by the way is the case even now with kings replaced by politicians.

Now to address next important sections of your post namely "limit to erasing distinctions" and "go for this land+women grab ideologies?". Yes, there is a practical limit on how much cohesion can be achieved against the basic human characteristics. That is exactly where Hinduism and the predatory religions differ. Result is for all of us to see. BRF had that discussion few years ago and the members sort of concluded that the goal of Islam and Christianity to conquor the world is an utopia. It cannot be achieved. This was always there in my mind as I went ahead trying to solve the puzzle of Hindu divisions. What I realized later on is that the goal of Hinduism to achieve universal brotherhood is also an utopia. Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that spirituality is the basis for Hinduism and one of the core pre-requesite for being successful in spirituality is the ability to see eveybody as equal without any kind of prejudice or bias. To sum up in one word a universal brotherhood. I do not claim to have great knowledge of spirituality but that goal of Hinduism is simply unachiveable. Hinduism cannot bring brotherhood amongst Hindus so what to talk about universe. Khandoba is useless and cannot help me.

Let us even put that loaded discussion on a backburner for a minute. Lets see the practical problems Hindus are facing when dealing with predators. I have a problem with these predators but there is not much I can do about it because there is no platform to execute any solutions. However when a muslim has a problem he or she has a platform to escalate the issue and get help from others to tackle the problem. Muslims are bound by a common thread amongst them. As they say in Christianity they are brothers in Christ. Islam shares and propagates the exact same idea. Who is my brother in Hinduism? Maybe I can say that Brihaspati is my brother in God #1. Darshan is my brother in God #1000. Ramana is my brother in God #100,000. Shiv is my brother in God #1,390,841. Now let me invite Shiv or Ramana to help save my property in Jammu & Kashmir that is being taken over by muslims. What do I do now? How do I connect with them?

There is a reason why muslims in India feel the pain for Palestenians. Of course there is more than one reason for it but one major reason is they are brothers of those Palestenians. That's a very powerful trick to bind people in one cause towards one unified goal. Ohh how much I am in awe of Allah. Allah is really great.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 07 Jul 2010 07:11

^^

Let us even put that loaded discussion on a backburner for a minute. Lets see the practical problems Hindus are facing when dealing with predators. I have a problem with these predators but there is not much I can do about it because there is no platform to execute any solutions. However when a muslim has a problem he or she has a platform to escalate the issue and get help from others to tackle the problem. Muslims are bound by a common thread amongst them. As they say in Christianity they are brothers in Christ. Islam shares and propagates the exact same idea. Who is my brother in Hinduism? Maybe I can say that Brihaspati is my brother in God #1. Darshan is my brother in God #1000. Ramana is my brother in God #100,000. Shiv is my brother in God #1,390,841. Now let me invite Shiv or Ramana to help save my property in Jammu & Kashmir that is being taken over by muslims. What do I do now? How do I connect with them?

Is this your understanding of Hinduism ??????

Anyway your post is OT, please move it to appropriate forum.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 07 Jul 2010 11:01

Sect fissures surface in Hurriyat -- Shias talk of separation
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1100707/j ... 655084.jsp

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 07 Jul 2010 11:02

Let us even put that loaded discussion on a backburner for a minute. Lets see the practical problems Hindus are facing when dealing with predators. I have a problem with these predators but there is not much I can do about it because there is no platform to execute any solutions. However when a muslim has a problem he or she has a platform to escalate the issue and get help from others to tackle the problem. Muslims are bound by a common thread amongst them. As they say in Christianity they are brothers in Christ. Islam shares and propagates the exact same idea. Who is my brother in Hinduism? Maybe I can say that Brihaspati is my brother in God #1. Darshan is my brother in God #1000. Ramana is my brother in God #100,000. Shiv is my brother in God #1,390,841. Now let me invite Shiv or Ramana to help save my property in Jammu & Kashmir that is being taken over by muslims. What do I do now? How do I connect with them?

Is this your understanding of Hinduism ??????

Colonized mind talks like this. They have no brothers among the millions

sum · Post by **sum** » 07 Jul 2010 11:24

Have to hand it to the Pakis for a game well played and really causing some takleef to GoI forces in the valley with all these "disturbances".

Hope our counter intel wakes up and takes charge before the things turn really ugly and messy

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 07 Jul 2010 11:42

I hope it does turn into an ugly mess.

Cut out the handouts and a work culture will begin to take hold.

Soon nobody will have time for stone pelting.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 07 Jul 2010 12:01

TSP sure is up to something. Could it be that they want to create enough chaos so as to link AfPak with Kashmir? Now unless TSP has got something else up its sleeve to follow, this strategy does not make any sense because for sure even MMS knows that TSP is behind this hanky panky and he will be in no mood (given public mood in India) to oblige dragging in Kashmir as part of AfPak resolution; as much as US might want to. Also, prima facie, TSP is on a winning wicket, so I would think they would buy time for a year or so until US runs, and then they (TSP) would execute their pet terror strategy with full fury. Something is amiss here. There is more to it than meets the eye.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 07 Jul 2010 12:08

CRamS wrote:TSP sure is up to something. Could it be that they want to create enough chaos so as to link AfPak with Kashmir? Now unless TSP has got something else up its sleeve to follow, this strategy does not make any sense because for sure even MMS knows that TSP is behind this hanky panky and he will be in no mood (given public mood in India) to oblige dragging in Kashmir as part of AfPak resolution; as much as US might want to. Also, prima facie, TSP is on a winning wicket, so I would think they would buy time for a year or so until US runs, and then they (TSP) would execute their pet terror strategy with full fury. Something is amiss here. There is more to it than meets the eye.

let me see if I can articulate what I sense about what TSP is up to:

the dynamic here is that of an aggressive TSP pushing harder now that (in their eyes) India has given ground by "begging for talks", getting sidelined in Afghanistan, and so on. Ek dhakka aur as they say. The right message to send would be massive repression by India in J&K, so that no one gets the wrong idea. I only wish there would be more talk of the moral depravity of the freedom fighters and their cause. Would anyone question shooting down gangs of Nazi youth on the rampage?

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 07 Jul 2010 20:24

Jihadist monkeys in Kashmir are now hiding on/behind trees to stone vehicles belonging to security forces, government and Amarnath pilgrims.
Curfew has been imposed and shoot at sight issued. I sincerely hope that a very large no. of wannabe mujahids attain shahadat opposing this draconian move by Indian govt.