Managing Pakistan's failure

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Karna_A
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Karna_A »

brihaspati wrote:
Regarding the future return of territories and populations currently under the occupation of Pak, there are two aspects to this. The first is the moral and ethical one. This is also about return of the punyabhumi back to the largest non-Muslim heritage from continuous occupation of the subcontinent long before Islam was even born. This is also about the fact that almost all of those living across the border were descended from Indian mothers if not from Indian fathers. .
Unless the politics in India is reformed and unless and until you have leaders like MY, LY any absoroption is out of question.
Any abrorption would lead to a bigger partition sometime later and this cycle would repeat till there are no indics left.
Pakistan is best left to stew in its own juices.
Just like Germany gave up East Prussia, India should forget about TSP areas unless they are depopulated and expelled to Arab lands. Even Israel is not demanding Arab lands which were populated by jews before Islam came to be returned back.
Moreover, this whole thing about 260 million refugees is nothing but propoganda. Even Afghanistan with much worse circumstances had only a 3 million refugees in pakistan rest were born in refugee camps. The only refugees that'll come will be Sikhs, Hindus and Ahmediyas, Ismā'īlis and Bohras.
The important thing in future is all 12 Jyotirlingas and 4 dhams stay in India and possibly have ownership to mansarover lake.

If acrosss the border most have descended from Indian mothers, then only women should be allowed in on condtion they marry indics in return for full freedom based on basic human rights.
Last edited by Karna_A on 10 Jul 2010 04:39, edited 4 times in total.
brihaspati
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by brihaspati »

^^^I have been a long time supporter of our braves offering female "yatins" left over from the most regrettable damages caused to foaming-at-the-mouth freshly minted Jihadis (encouraged of course by our braves to foam) arising out of Pakis (as collateral damage or as combatants in war) - an "honourable" marriage, with a "hotly and lovingly urged" little purification ceremony along Hindu or Sikh rites.
Kamboja
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Kamboja »

In re: Paki population rising to 260M...

Seems to me that long before that target is met, the wasteland to our west will collapse upon itself and some form of natural population control will happen. Whether it takes the form of
(a) civil war,
(b) genocide,
(c) starvation,
(d) epidemic disease,
(e) mass emigration (we must ensure the direction is westwards to their arab-persian-turkish civilizational overlords, not eastward)
(f) cannibalism (what will be the halal justification offered for human flesh, I wonder? Some imaginative maulana will rise to the task, I'm sure)

or some combination of the above, I don't see how the Pacquis could possibly spawn another hundred million mini-Pacquis and sustain them on the current resources of that 'country' -- which are already strained to bursting point such that power, food and water are harder and harder to come by today, let alone under the crushing weight of another hundred million.

I would have a different opinion if TSP showed any signs of progress whatsoever on the development front -- improving crop yields, water management, anything -- but the only 'Green Revolution' the Pacquis seem capable of is the one that involves planting IEDs and harvesting heads.

So long before the population grows by 100M something catastrophic must happen to slow the growth rate in Pakistan... call me Malthusian but I just don't see it happening.
shiv
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

A_Gupta wrote: The fundamentalist mindset is strongly linked to a male-dominant mind set; what happens to it if it is forced for a generation to have to deal with this? Note that the fundamentalist assertion of power always begins with asserting power over women - both Muslim and kafir - even before asserting power over male kafirs.

If there is anything in this phenomenon, can we make use of it?
Arun - I believe "negative" traits like this are best utilized by reinforcing them and supporting them. In this case that means that it needs to be used to make women in Pakistan suffer more.

Even Paki ego (which I alluded to in an earlier post) can be used by "feeding it".If we are to use propaganda in Pakistan, the method that is least likely to arouse suspicion is one that feeds Pakistani ego. Hence I spoke of ads that promote trade by images of various kafirs yearning for Pakistani goods. This is a "schizophrenic piskological message" with a purpose. The ostensible purpose is to make the Pakistani feel good that his products will be much sought after by kafirs who will pay him for them. The deeper purpose is to subvert the feeling that kafirs should not be dealt with and that business is possible. Again if nothing else such ads aim to confuse and set up dilemmas in the minds of people who have been indoctrinated to hate.

Another devious way is to show a broken down school with adolescent boys hanging about. Then news comes in that kafirs have attacked - cut to a scene that shows the boy saying schooling can wait - but jihad must be done now.

So male domination can be used creatively by creating a dilemma by giving a mixed message. For example an unveiled authoritative woman can be shown doing something (say being promiscuous) and a veiled and obedient woman depicted using birth control pills.
This will of course make birth control pills be banned forever :rotfl: thus helping Paki women suffer more and let Pakistan sink deeper. On the other hand women may like the ad. Either way its an idea to set up confusion and doubt and create a bigger mess out of Pakbrains.

The idea is that if you try and fight existing biases you will end up fighting cognitive dissonance. That is pointless. But if you "go along the grain", and not fight the biases but reinforce them instead but fill that with subliminal messages that would otherwise not pass - you can get the latter dubious messages through. Just some Goebbelsian thoughts.

BTW such methods are regularly used by ad agencies and propaganda machinery.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Pranav »

A_Gupta wrote: The fundamentalist mindset is strongly linked to a male-dominant mind set; what happens to it if it is forced for a generation to have to deal with this? Note that the fundamentalist assertion of power always begins with asserting power over women - both Muslim and kafir - even before asserting power over male kafirs.

If there is anything in this phenomenon, can we make use of it?
The victory of the Awami League in Bangladesh owed a lot to the women.

Similarly, in J&K, women are at the forefront of defying separatist calls to boycott elections.

Often, women caught in the grip of Islamism can sense, at some level, that Indic memes are a way to deliverance.

So Zan (women) and Zameen (i.e. land reform) are potent factors.

However, with TSP introducing EVMs in elections, voices of women are liable to be suppressed.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

VinodTK wrote:U.S. military aid to India could irk Pakistan
Ayesha Siddiqa, a Pakistani defense analyst with the Johns Hopkins University's School of Advanced International Studies, said the sale of advanced technology to India will "perturb Pakistan beyond imagination."

"Such deals will be seen as excessively strengthening India, have a major impact on the future of Pakistan" and could exacerbate an arms race between India and Pakistan, she said.
Exactly madam. Exactly. That is what we desire most for Pakistan, and if it is not US arms we will get something else.

You Pakis need to spend spend spend on arms to keep up with the kafirs.

If you have any other choices, I am not going to tell you.

Elite-ruler psychology in Pakistan is very interesting: They say "We just don't care. We don't care if our country or our people go to the dogs. We will demand that we are kept abreast of India and equalequal with India. The only way to make things better for our country is to bring India down for us, and then we will climb down"
Aditya_V
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Aditya_V »

VinodTK wrote:U.S. military aid to India could irk Pakistan
Ayesha Siddiqa, a Pakistani defense analyst with the Johns Hopkins University's School of Advanced International Studies, said the sale of advanced technology to India will "perturb Pakistan beyond imagination."

"Such deals will be seen as excessively strengthening India, have a major impact on the future of Pakistan" and could exacerbate an arms race between India and Pakistan, she said.
Huh, Pakis can't differtiate between Aid and Purchase.

For all Lurkers, Sales by US is AID because " a) it is paid by the US directly b) Finance by other US aid bills, IMF write off of loans

In the case of India, a) India has to pay top dollar to the US Govt. to get everythign it needs
KLNMurthy
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by KLNMurthy »

partha wrote:
Nirupama Subramanian : -
http://www.hindu.com/2010/03/20/stories ... 641300.htm
If there is anything I learnt from those personal experiences in Pakistan, it is that these little bridges are the key to peace.
On the other hand, some of us build one of those pious little Nirupama-bridges, go over to the other side, see them up close, promptly throw up and join BRF to get rid of the disgusting smell. :-)
Last edited by KLNMurthy on 10 Jul 2010 12:42, edited 1 time in total.
KLNMurthy
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by KLNMurthy »

shiv wrote:
Ayesha Siddiqa, a Pakistani defense analyst with the Johns Hopkins University's School of Advanced International Studies, said the sale of advanced technology to India will "perturb Pakistan beyond imagination."

"Such deals will be seen as excessively strengthening India, have a major impact on the future of Pakistan" and could exacerbate an arms race between India and Pakistan, she said.
Exactly madam. Exactly. That is what we desire most for Pakistan, and if it is not US arms we will get something else.

You Pakis need to spend spend spend on arms to keep up with the kafirs.

If you have any other choices, I am not going to tell you.
...
Or better still, tell them. And they will do the opposite since it comes from a Yeevil Yindoo.

I noticed in my interaction with various Famous Paki Journalist types that even the slightest departure from fawning adoration of their moronic blatherings invariably results in the disagreer being labeled as a yeevil yindoo fundamentalist grand-nephew of Bal Thakare.

So we are safe either way, we can count on the RAPEs to never do the right thing for their country. Given the ineptitude of our own country, we should be grateful for such own goal shooters on the other side.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

SBajwa wrote:
by Shiv
Not because we are not militarily stronger, but because the US will not allow the Pakistan army to lose even after military defeat and the US is actively involved in dissuading India from fighting a war. The US trusts the Pakistan army to safeguard nukes and worries about anything that may damage the Pakistan army. Both the Taliban and India are forces that can damage the Pakistan army. The US negotiates with India about helping to preserve the Paki army, but is unable to negotiate with the Taliban.
This can be subverted. We need to draw a parallel between 1970s Jimmy Carter support of Shah or Iran vs. Shia Mullahs.

During modern times, US administration led west has not learned any lessons whatsoever with the above failure. Though I suspect that Saudis are saving the behind of naPakis at this time (just like themselves). so! what we have is

"Al-Qaeda, Tabliban, Deobandi-Wahabi-Salafists" VERSUS "West support Saudi King, Nuclear Pakistani Army under garb of sham democracy". Common people in naPakistan look to Mullahs for their education, Justice, medicine, help after earthquakes, floods, etc,
Bajwaji in fact this is an approximate description of what I myself hoped for until a month or so ago. I was thinking that a Taliban takeover and the US getting the boot is a good idea so that Paki nukes are aimed at everyone.

But it now seems to me that nobody in the world is interested in seeing Paki nukes on the loose. That means that a very tight tab is being kept on all possible storage sites, and there is "close cooperation" between the US and the Pakistani army ensuring that those nukes are safe.

For whatever reason all public information seems to indicate that there is reasonable consensus that Paki nukes are in storage and safe and not mated with delivery systems. Those nukes are assumed to be safe in those storage areas - firmly under control of the Pakistani army.

The concern about safety of those nukes is expected to arise if those nukes are moved out of storage. It is anticipated that those nukes would get moved out of storage only in case of hostilities with India and that some of them would be vulnerable to theft in transit.

For that reason the next logical move is "conflict resolution" with India. Contrary to what BRFites say - you cannot have conflict resolution by satisfying Pakistan and making India angry. That is conflict aggravation. India is the aggrieved party and can literally spoil the party - so there is absolutely no question of forcing India into any solution that is unpopular.
I repeat yet again that this is a situation that demands India-US cooperation.

Without repeating my view on the details of that I believe that the idea is to treat the Pakistani army as a separate entity and keep it alive, active and healthy but not trying to wage war with India. In turn India is requested not to force the army into a war which results in the Paki army's inevitable defeat and the need to move nukes and their subsequent theft. That is a whole different ball game. If India is not bombing the moving nukes, other powers will have to consider doing that and there is still no guarantee.

But keeping the Paki army intact comes with side effects. They will not fight their former Talibaniac allies, and democracy has almost zero chance of coming to Pakistan, and along with that all hopes of land reform and the like.

Pakistan currently is a long-term international plan. The army has to be kept alive but on drip feed. The civilian side had to be gradually edged towards developing an effective system of governance.

In my view the question of re incorporating areas of Waziristan into Pakistan is currently non existent, but nobody is saying that out loud. Ultimately (IMO) we may see one more split in Pakistan - with "Talibanistan" on one side and the rump state next to India
Last edited by shiv on 10 Jul 2010 20:26, edited 1 time in total.
RajeshA
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

shiv wrote:In my view the question of re incorporating areas of Waziristan into Pakistan is currenlty non existent, but nobody is saying that out loud. Ultimately (IMO) we may see one more split in Pakistan - with "Talibanistan" on one side and the rump state next to India
How small should the rump state be, for it to lose the consensus amongst the powers, for holding on to nukes?
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by SBajwa »

By Dr. Shiv

Without repeating my view on the details of that I believe that the idea is to treat the Pakistani army as a separate entity and keep it alive, active and healthy but not trying to wage war with India. In turn India is requested not to force the army into a war which results in the Paki army's inevitable defeat and the need to move nukes and their subsequent theft. That is a whole different ball game. If India is not bombing the moving nukes, other powers will have to consider doing that and there is still no guarantee.
In that case we should see

1. Pakistan becoming like Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan, Afghanista vis-a-vis India (no such reports).

2. Pakistan civil administration asking India for training in technology, medicine, education, etc.

3. Pakistani army asking India for help in curbing terrorism

4. Pakistan extraditing Dawood, Hafeez, Khalistani terrorists, etc.

5. Pakistan curtailing their military buildup., instead they have increased spending.

In my opinion current US administration is simply buying the time until next election. India is buying the time for the same reason and have lost strategic vision in Afghanistan. This is a repeat of earlier issue vis-a-vis afghanistan., when Indira Gandhi helped Afghanis by building hospitals (in Kabul)., schools, etc. These were later destroyed by Pakistani army led Talibunnies. We are now back to building Afghanistan (which will again be destroyed by strong Pakistani army through proxy soldiers).

My biggest fear is that currently, Pakistani army is building up their muscle (with help of china) while lying low., to rise up again in future (as have done in past). Whatever the case., the small land locked state next to Indian border will not survive without friendly relations/protection of India (like Bhutan, Nepal) .

Historically the Lahore district of Punjab which was ruled by Mughals (Akbar was crowned in Kalanaur which is close to Gurdaspur/Lahore) have always been like a bone of contention between India and Afghanistan/Arabians/Turks/Greeks/Huns/Sakas.

In recent times after Mughals at Delhi were ruling from Shahi Kila till Mehrauli (rest of India was ruled by independent state)., Lahoriites always looked at Afghanis as their "Brothers" inviting/hosting Nadir shah/Abdali/etc before they attacked India. These days Nadir Shah/Abdali have been replaced by China (Everytime I see picture of Kiyani/Musharraf/etc in china, i am reminded of mughals offering young (14 years old) virgin girls to Abdali/Shah ) while USA is sort of British waiting/watching/executing the best option of the moment.

Non-muslims at that time only lived around the countryside and were always ready to scoot (with permanent dry rations attached to the saddles). At the first news of all the attacks after Prithviraj chauhan (Mongols, Ghori, Ghaznavi, afghanis, etc)., All non-muslim punjabis either ran towards Rajasthan or towards Himalayas, with nothing in their hands. It is a known habbit among non-muslims punjabis to buy gold with their money (enshrined in DNA). non-muslims punjabis have many idioms and sayings about these attacks for example

"Khaada Peeta Lahe da., baki Ahmad Shahe daa" "Whatever is in my stomach and on my back is mine., rest belong to Ahmad Shah"

"Mannu asadi Daatri, Assi mannu de soyae, jeo jeo mannu waddda doon-swaeye hoye" -- about meer mannu who was pakjabi governor of Lahore

"Mannu is our Sickle and we are his crops., but we are growing faster (doon-swaeye means one and a quarter or sawa like sawa Rupya for 1.25 Rupees) than his speed of cutting us"

Pakjabis invited Afghanis only to get looted again and again and they still till date trust them more than their fellow non-muslim punjabis (never learning from their own history).

Pakjabi only understands the language of Terror., The Bhangi Sardars (Dhilllon Brothers who were called Bhangi because they were always intoxicated with Bhang (Marijuana)., which is also called "Sukka Prasad" by Nihang Sikhs)., took over Lahore after Zaman Shah (Abdali's son) abandoned lahore. The three Dhillon brothers divided the city among themselves and thoroughly whipped all Pakjabis, they recovered thousands of abducted girls (who were forcibly converted). Pakjabis still remember this period and call it "Sikkha Shahi"., which is just like what Delhi's mughals called "Nadir Shahi" i.e. "terroristic rule"

In less than 6 months Pakjabis were inviting the 17 year old Ranjit Singh to take over the city and stop terror. Ranjit Singh took over the city and declared himself as "Maharaja of Punjab"., he ruled Punjab from 1799 till 1839 and 10 years after his death in 1849 british took over. Rest is history. Now we are back to the original problem of Pakjabis begging from all quarters but Indians (whom they want to conquer).
Last edited by SBajwa on 10 Jul 2010 21:37, edited 2 times in total.
RajeshA
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

A few months old commentary by Javed Chaudhry - host of Kal Tak on Pakistan's Economic Woes
brihaspati
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by brihaspati »

shiv wrote
For that reason the next logical move is "conflict resolution" with India. Contrary to what BRFites say - you cannot have conflict resolution by satisfying Pakistan and making India angry. That is conflict aggravation. India is the aggrieved party and can literally spoil the party - so there is absolutely no question of forcing India into any solution that is unpopular.
I repeat yet again that this is a situation that demands India-US cooperation.
There are many a complexity here.

First the underlying assumption is that satisfying Pak is going to be unpopular. Unpopular with whom? how is that unpopularity going to be manifested? Since all Indian action, [under normal Consititutional scenarios] will have to be expressed through the GOI and IA, unpopularity will not have any effect unless it has an electoral manifestation. The electoral manifestation factor is unpredictable, given how the "satisfaction of Pak" is represented as internationally as well as within India.

There is an inherent dilemma here for everyone concerned. For the POGWI+PA+ISI, their entire life has been based on preconditioning legitimacy based on Hindu-hatred, any concession to Pak that is not represented as pain to the "Hindu" detracts from their own legitimacy. Remember that the fundamental imperative in Paki representation is to suppress the non-Hindu threads within India, especially the IM one - since then it clouds the situation with showing Paki atrocities as also targeting Muslims. So no concession to Pak is going to be satisfactory unless it can be shown as hurting the Hindu.

So any attempt at selling this "peace in our lifetime" BS to India will detract from the satisfaction to Paki aspect. The only way however this has any prospect is by actually shouting that it is indeed "peace" for India. This will have to be the thrust, because the international players as well as Congress will be uncertain about the actual popular reaction, potential impact in unraveling the careful planning that has gone behind the "dsimantling" of the "Hindu". Therefore unless suppression of all possible "Hindu" reaction is guaranteed, any such proposal will be sold as "peace" to India.

Now that really could have some potential for actually being "accepted". What it needs to do is for the Islamic, within India and outside, to pretend for a while at "change of heart", with a combined propaganda blitz from outside and GOI, that a "comprehensive" plan is being put into action to "bring peace" once and for ever. The most likely scenario is a Norther-Ireland, Good-Friday Agreement style framework being foisted on India. Unlike NI+GFA, however it will only be a cover for separatists and jihadis to gain access to government resources and allow their western or PRC backers to pretend that they have grown some degree of "legitimacy".

Everyone here saves their face, so I cannot see why "such a way" of satisfying Pakis is entirely impossible!
Without repeating my view on the details of that I believe that the idea is to treat the Pakistani army as a separate entity and keep it alive, active and healthy but not trying to wage war with India. In turn India is requested not to force the army into a war which results in the Paki army's inevitable defeat and the need to move nukes and their subsequent theft. That is a whole different ball game. If India is not bombing the moving nukes, other powers will have to consider doing that and there is still no guarantee.
I agree, that it had always been the plan to empower and keep the PA healthy and happy. They will appear more and more important to the new US military thinking in which, the US establishment realizes how little handle they really have over AFG, and that they will need a chained dog to threaten future AFG warlords, including the current transitional one - Karazai. The nukes are an excuse at best. The best way to deal with the nuke threat is to create conditions under which the greatest provocation to use nukes are created. Keeping the "threat" of supposed nukes falling into supposed "uncontrolled/unpredictable" hands can very well be a ploy from a combined US-PA tactic to pressurize the entire region including AFG and India. This could have very little real threat factor actually on the ground, but is magnified to use as a strategic pressure point on Iran, AFG and India.

If the USA is really really worried about Paki nukes, others should openly treat it as if it is a joke, and pretend that they don't really take it as a serious threat and possibly a ploy. They have to then try and prove that they are serious, and we will know the nature and extent of the "reality" of the nukes. If there are any, PA will hold on to them to the last, and try moving them to KSA or PRC - in the hope that a Paki gov in exile could use them in the future to reclaim their Paki-land, or use it to buy personal safety.
But keeping the Paki army intact comes with side effects. They will not fight their former Talibaniac allies, and democracy has almost zero chance of coming to Pakistan, and along with that all hopes of land reform and the like.
Pakistan currently is a long-term international plane. the army has to be kept alive buto n drip feed. The civilian side had to be gradually edged towards developing an effectve system of governance.
I don't think anyone is planning long term about the PA. Those that are at all interested in any planning are interested in keeping it as a mercenary force to be used against hopefully, AFG recalcitrants, and almost surely and reliably, as a pressure point on India. But another, not unexpected phenomenon should soon be apparent. The PA will show signs of disintegration at the seams, and a sudden turn towards radicalism. The PA itself may break down into several competing groups, occupying different parts of current occupied territories, forming various kinds of alliances with local interests and militants and all claiming legitimacy and "aid" from USA.
In my view the question of re incorporating areas of Waziristan into Pakistan is currenlty non existent, but nobody is saying that out loud. Ultimately (IMO) we may see one more split in Pakistan - with "Talibanistan" on one side and the rump state next to India
They cannot occupy it, neither can they leave it. I think, the so-called GFA agreement should be first asked by India to be tried out on Waziristan before trying it on J&K. GOI should be able to say, "okay lets see how your grand plan of Northern Ireland type solution works out in Waziristan, which also prove how far Pakis are able to handle such solutions - before we even consider something similar for Kashmir Valley".
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Atri »

Bajwaji,

If I am not mistaken, Abdali was repeatedly invited not by Punjabis (or Pakjabis) but by Najeeb of Ruhailkhand (western UP). Abdali used to conspicuously appear in India when Maratha army was away from North busy in Deccan. This pattern was seen thrice from 1745 to 1761. Now we know, it was Najeeb who was the snake in the aastin. Please elaborate about Pakjabis inviting abdali too.

Thanks.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by SBajwa »

If I am not mistaken, Abdali was repeatedly invited not by Punjabis (or Pakjabis) but by Najeeb of Ruhailkhand (western UP). Abdali used to conspicuously appear in India when Maratha army was away from North busy in Deccan. This pattern was seen thrice from 1745 to 1761. Now we know, it was Najeeb who was the snake in the aastin. Please elaborate about Pakjabis inviting abdali too.
Mughals had many "Subas" i.e. Ruhailkhand, Lahore, Sarhind, Marwar, etc. The Subedar(Governor) of these typically supported either mughals (Ruling from Delhi) or foreigners (Invaders like Nadir Shah or Abdali).

Mughals/Marathas/etc always put up Defense in the vicinity of Panipat/Karnal and not beyond Lahore. Typically Iranians under Nadir Shah or Afghanis under Abdali would advance upto Lahore., Non-muslims (who were less than 1% of city population) of countryside would flee to Kangra hills, Shivalik hills or Rajasthan.

Mughal appointed Pakjabi governor of Lahore have always turned against Delhi (after death of Aurungzeb) supporting invaders (instead of protecting their people) since they were of same "religion", offering them money, ammunition and women. Then after few days rest., naach gaana etc. these bandit invaders continued their invasion ransacking everything between Lahore and Panipat.

Rohillas, Sarhind, Lahore governors after Aurungzeb always supported Afghanis and Iranians.

also!! after the first invasion of Abdali and battle at Panipat., Sikhs became very powerful (Guerilla warfare) and started ruling all the territory of Punjab (outside cities as they didn't had any guns). Abdali repeteadly attacked Punjab as he wanted to punish the Sikh "Infidels" and all indian muslim governors always supported Foreigner Muslim invader against Sikhs., as Mughals had became very weak.

All Gurdwaras in Punjab and Delhi were made multiple times between 1730 - 1800 (mughals/afghanis/iranians) destroyed them multiple times. Abdali dug up golden temple 3-4 times slaughtered cows and filled it with earth., Mughal police chief Massa Ranghar., actually made Golden temple as his "Harem".
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by sanjaykumar »

Very illuminating history posts.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Prem »

Atri Jee,
Najeebullah or Hameeullah, whats the difference as both Ullahs fellows follow and worship alien ideology which invited Abdali's invasion for saving 'islam" from kaffir sons of soil. The very fact that Muslamans living in india invited foreign power to finish Indics and they still revere him says volume about their degradation .
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

SBajwa wrote: In my opinion current US administration is simply buying the time until next election. India is buying the time for the same reason and have lost strategic vision in Afghanistan.
This is possible - but I believe that the US does not have this luxury. Do you see the alternative? The alternative is what I and other BRFites hoped for - i.e for the Taliban to win and eventually get control of nukes so that they are pointed at the US and other countries as well as India.

The current situation with the nukes is the best that can be hoped for - i.e nukes aimed at India alone - and in safe custody as long as there is no war with India.

I personally do not believe that India can have any strategic vision in Afghanistan. It is easier and more practicable for India to have strategic vision in Mozambique. We have no way of reaching that country by land or sea so what vision can we have, I don;t see us capable of a "Berlin airlift" to Afghanistan.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

brihaspati wrote:So any attempt at selling this "peace in our lifetime" BS to India will detract from the satisfaction to Paki aspect. The only way however this has any prospect is by actually shouting that it is indeed "peace" for India. This will have to be the thrust, because the international players as well as Congress will be uncertain about the actual popular reaction, potential impact in unraveling the careful planning that has gone behind the "dsimantling" of the "Hindu". Therefore unless suppression of all possible "Hindu" reaction is guaranteed, any such proposal will be sold as "peace" to India.

Now that really could have some potential for actually being "accepted". What it needs to do is for the Islamic, within India and outside, to pretend for a while at "change of heart", with a combined propaganda blitz from outside and GOI, that a "comprehensive" plan is being put into action to "bring peace" once and for ever. The most likely scenario is a Norther-Ireland, Good-Friday Agreement style framework being foisted on India. Unlike NI+GFA, however it will only be a cover for separatists and jihadis to gain access to government resources and allow their western or PRC backers to pretend that they have grown some degree of "legitimacy".
If you look at all possible future scenarios - this would have to be one of them - but not the only scenario. Again the complexity you have described would require "management" at every step to ensure that it all pans out as you have described .

There is one forum member - one of the Sanjays I think who keeps referring to "Atlanticists". What I have inferred from those references is that there are a group of controlling people who are looking for perpetuation of total dominance of the US and its cronies across the Atlantic - somewhat like those things in "The Matrix" who will stop at nothing and Pakistan is one more key in their plan to exert control over India.

To some extent what you say fits in with the idea of an overall conspiracy to keep India and the "Hindu" down. I would find the scenario much more credible if those controlling forces had not botched so badly in Pakistan. Pakistan is a mess and is definitely a danger to India - but it is hardly a success story for anyone who has tried to use Pakistan as some kind of hedge against India.

Any complex story or scenario can be perfectly credible if the individual events and actions all work like clockwork. There are three ways that I can see an incredibly complex scenario such as you have envisaged (or the Atlanticist plan) working flawlessly

1) As an extremely good work of fiction where a writer spends some effort explaining how everything worked
2) As a historic record where some such complex plan worked out despite failures of many individual parts (20/20 hindsight)
3) But as a prediction of what can happen in the future - the number of things that can go wrong are so large that anyone who actually makes such a plan can only hope that things will go as per plan.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Atri »

SBajwa wrote:
If I am not mistaken, Abdali was repeatedly invited not by Punjabis (or Pakjabis) but by Najeeb of Ruhailkhand (western UP). Abdali used to conspicuously appear in India when Maratha army was away from North busy in Deccan. This pattern was seen thrice from 1745 to 1761. Now we know, it was Najeeb who was the snake in the aastin. Please elaborate about Pakjabis inviting abdali too.
Mughals had many "Subas" i.e. Ruhailkhand, Lahore, Sarhind, Marwar, etc. The Subedar(Governor) of these typically supported either mughals (Ruling from Delhi) or foreigners (Invaders like Nadir Shah or Abdali).

Mughals/Marathas/etc always put up Defense in the vicinity of Panipat/Karnal and not beyond Lahore. Typically Iranians under Nadir Shah or Afghanis under Abdali would advance upto Lahore., Non-muslims (who were less than 1% of city population) of countryside would flee to Kangra hills, Shivalik hills or Rajasthan.

Mughal appointed Pakjabi governor of Lahore have always turned against Delhi (after death of Aurungzeb) supporting invaders (instead of protecting their people) since they were of same "religion", offering them money, ammunition and women. Then after few days rest., naach gaana etc. these bandit invaders continued their invasion ransacking everything between Lahore and Panipat.

Rohillas, Sarhind, Lahore governors after Aurungzeb always supported Afghanis and Iranians.

also!! after the first invasion of Abdali and battle at Panipat., Sikhs became very powerful (Guerilla warfare) and started ruling all the territory of Punjab (outside cities as they didn't had any guns). Abdali repeteadly attacked Punjab as he wanted to punish the Sikh "Infidels" and all indian muslim governors always supported Foreigner Muslim invader against Sikhs., as Mughals had became very weak.

All Gurdwaras in Punjab and Delhi were made multiple times between 1730 - 1800 (mughals/afghanis/iranians) destroyed them multiple times. Abdali dug up golden temple 3-4 times slaughtered cows and filled it with earth., Mughal police chief Massa Ranghar., actually made Golden temple as his "Harem".
Interesting information. Thanks very much, Bajwaji.

There was one Mughal Sardar who cared for setting up a forward base in Punjab against raids of Abdali. His name was Adina Beg. After first raid of abdali, (second actually, in first raid, he was a general of Nadir Shah) Mughals gave the rights of Chauth and Sardeshmukhi (25% and additional 10%) of Punjab and Kashmir Provinces to Marathas. There was a serious debate in Pune court whether to accept this offer or not. One faction of the court opined that it was important to finish off Najib from Gangetic belt and fortify Shuja (a Shia nawab of Awadh, Lucknow and sworn enemy of Sunni Pathan Najeeb) against British (who had recently won at Plassey). There was the issue of Bengal as well. After 10 years of rather barbaric Maratha raids on Bengal, the nawab Alivardy Khan had agreed to cede Orissa to Marathas in 1751 along with yearly payment of 35% of revenues. Those payments had stopped after 1754, and in 1757 Plassey happened. Thus, Bengal was a problem "to be solved" on Pune's "Checklist".

However, Najeeb pursuaded Holkar of Indore (whom he considered as father) to persuade Peshwa to go for Punjab and not for conquest of Gangetic valley. This move along with flattery of Adina beg, chance of winning the revenues of Punjab along with liberating Sindhu tempted Marathas to go for Indus valley without securing the Ganges valley first. This led to their undoing thereafter. The opponents of Punjab move were also right in stating that venturing into Punjab would seriously stretch the supplies of Maratha armies.

They decided to take the bait. About 50,000 strong Maratha army backed up by imperial Mughal army under Raghunathrao, Holkar and Adina Beg crossed Sutlaj in 1757 and conquered Lahore and later Attock from Abdali and pursued his son Taimur Shah well beyond Peshawar up to Khaiber pass. These details are present in the report sent by Raghunathrao Peshwa to his elder brother in Pune in March 1758. One of the most graphic accounts of campaign (liberation of Sindhu after centuries of slavery was seen as fulfilment of Shivaji's dream in Deccan).

They remained stationed there for about 19 months (mid-1759) when the Maratha garrison in Attock was defeated by Abdali. The Marathas did not station that force permanently in the north (there are complicated factors for this move, Najeebullah of Ruhailkhand being one of them) and stationed a contingent of about 20000 cavalry in Lahore to defeat the raids of Abdali in Punjab without having to fight him near Delhi. The Mughals kept the supplies and logistics. However, Adina Beg died meanwhile and the logistical chain got severely stretched. Hearing this, Abdali initiated his third raid on Abdali (which marked the beginning of famous Panipat campaign). To rectify the previous error of not stationing a large army permanently in north India and Sirhind, they sent a huge force of about 150,000 under Sadashivrao Bhau and Vishwasrao. Still, there was some hitch in their minds whether to go for Punjab or not. The rise of Sikhs as formidable power had not started yet, although quite a few Sikh Misls were their allies in previous Attock campaign.

The Mughal victory over Abdali few years ago was last victory achieved by any mughal army, although most of the fighting was not done by them.

Within few weeks after pyrrihic victory at panipat, Abdali learnt that Peshwa Balajirao Nanasaheb had reached Gwalior with army of 50,000 to fight Abdali. He hastily signed an agreement with Peshwas dividing lands to the east of Sutlaj as those of Marathas and Punjab belonged to Abdali. Peshwa agreed to this terms and Abdali left India without gaining much within few weeks, with a desecrated army. Fortunately for Dharma, Sikhs rose meteorically immediately after Panipat and repaired the losses for India. Marathas thereafter never crossed Sutlaj.

It was very illuminating to read that post of yours, which is consistent with the policy of contemporary India's central Power - Pune. There was only one attempt to engage Abdali in northern Punjab from 1745 to 1761, but it could not fructify. Prior to that, there wasn't any attempt at all. Nadir invaded when there wasn't any mughal or Maratha army fielded around Delhi (Marathas had recently conquered Delhi in 1739). Bajirao Peshwa was fighting off Nizam of Hyderabad when Nadir sacked Delhi. Bajirao died in a camp while on way to Delhi in MP in 1740. After 1761, too, there was no attempt by Delhi (or other powers) to engage Abdali in his domain. All the attempts thereafter were from Sikhs.

This entire episode is very very important while considering a strategy for management of failed "Indus Valley". Deccan cannot manage failure of Indus valley with a dysfunctional Gangetic valley. Otherwise, the most potent force of India is stuck between the hammer and anvil of ROPers from Indus and Ganga Valley and Panipat happens.
Prem wrote:Najeebullah or Hameeullah, whats the difference as both Ullahs fellows follow and worship alien ideology which invited Abdali's invasion for saving 'islam" from kaffir sons of soil
Touché..
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

RajeshA wrote:
shiv wrote:In my view the question of re incorporating areas of Waziristan into Pakistan is currenlty non existent, but nobody is saying that out loud. Ultimately (IMO) we may see one more split in Pakistan - with "Talibanistan" on one side and the rump state next to India
How small should the rump state be, for it to lose the consensus amongst the powers, for holding on to nukes?
Looking at Paki opinion polls of who feels "Pakistani" - it appears to me that a so called "rump state" will not be insignificant. Sindh and Pakjab are sure to be in that and probably parts of NWFP. I expect that Gilgit, Baltistan and Northern areas too can be incorporated in the rump state.

The problem for me is that I am unaware of the exact geography of the region and I am basing my conjecture on what I can recall from my knowledge of history about what areas are militarily defensible and can be "held" in control by a military kamandu sitting in Rawalpindi. Peshawar would certainly stay in the rump state I am guessing.

Again I think Balochistan is too sparsely populated to break off and survive without some fierce external support. Such support does not exist - so much of Balochistan will stay in the rump state, but I expect that areas of Balochistan bordering Afghanistan will join Waziristan as the "badlands" of Talibanistan.

The only question to me is "How can such a Talibanistan survive?" in the absence of Pakistani and American chicanery. Even if these areas were self sufficient in food, money and arms would have to come in from either Afghanistan or Pakistan and continued instability and/or lack of control of these areas would be required to keep Talibanistan alive.

And if you look at reality - this is exactly what we have today. We have a Talibanistan that already exists, surviving between "soft, irrelevant borders" that it has with Pakistan and Afghanistan. Those soft "borders that are irrelevant" allow the Taliban to be supplied with anything they need from Pakistan while opium exports go through.

The current mess is to try and maintain the Durand line and somehow make Talibanistan go away. The US would like that for Afghanistan, but Talibanistan is an asset for the Pakistanis. But Talibanistan is now a narrow strip on both sides of the Durand line only because the US and NATO are stabilizing Afghanistan. If they were not there - all of Afghanistan would have been Talibanistan, with Pakistani interference as was the case before 9-11. The US assumed that the Taliban could be crushed between the hammer of US forces in Afghanistan and the anvil of a cooperating Pakistan. But Pakistan has now ceded some of its own territory to the Taliban. Pakistan has willingly shrunk in order to allow the Taliban space.

"Talibanistan" is now a vassal state of Pakistan and Pakistan has some vassal forces/kings in there, but does not control all. The Pakistani assumption is that the US will leave Afghanistan after which it can allow its vassals to take Afghanistan and free up the territory it has ceded to them and also claim the territory of Afghanistan for future trade and transit. But Pakistan faces the same problem as the British, Soviets and the US. Nobody can exert complete control over Afghanistan. And an Afghanistan that is in a mess is back to the bad old pre-9-11 days.

Now here's a thought. If you look at the US's statements over the past 5 years - you find that although the US is promising to get out of Afghanistan, one consistent statement that has come from the US is that they will continue to stay engaged in Pakistan. The US is not going to leave Pakistan. And actually control of Pakistan is key to controlling the mess of Afghanistan and Talibanistan.

The stabilization of Afghanistan has to be via the control of Pakistan.

Pakistan needs to be controlled and moderated. It matters little whether Pakistan is a strong, well governed and well behaved state that will control itself, or a weak state that is amenable to control from outside as long as the objectives are met.

It turns out that Pakistan is a weak state and is amenable to control from the outside. It is amenable to control from the outside primarily because of its fear of India. Pakistani leaders have actively allowed outside control of their actions in exchange for guarantees against India. But that control that outside power had over Pakistan is now slipping for the following reasons:

1) Pakistani nuclear weapons give them some autonomy of action
2) Pakistan itself is slipping out of control because of poor governance - and the existence of Talibanistan is an indicator of that loss of control.

For this reason the control of Pakistan is a priority for everyone else (even if you leave India out of the question). Control of Pakistan to "check the rise of India" India is only one of the factors that exists although this is the one thing that we seem to think of most often on here. The reasons to control Pakistan are:
  • Control of oil/gas route from CAR
  • Control of nuclear proliferation
  • Control of Islamic extremism
  • As a check on India
So even if Pakistan's raisin dieter is "Control of India" it has now gone well beyond that.

Of the four reasons above at least 3 of them would be easier with Indian help and cooperation.

Would a Talibanistan exist of Pakistan can be controlled? I don't know. Will post thoughts later. The control and stabilization of Pakistan is vital to the future of Afghanistan and Talibanistan.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by brihaspati »

shiv wrote
If you look at all possible future scenarios - this would have to be one of them - but not the only scenario. Again the complexity you have described would require "management" at every step to ensure that it all pans out as you have described .

There is one forum member - one of the Sanjays I think who keeps referring to "Atlanticists". What I have inferred from those references is that there are a group of controlling people who are looking for perpetuation of total dominance of the US and its cronies across the Atlantic - somewhat like those things in "The Matrix" who will stop at nothing and Pakistan is one more key in their plan to exert control over India.

To some extent what you say fits in with the idea of an overall conspiracy to keep India and the "Hindu" down. I would find the scenario much more credible if those controlling forces had not botched so badly in Pakistan. Pakistan is a mess and is definitely a danger to India - but it is hardly a success story for anyone who has tried to use Pakistan as some kind of hedge against India.

Any complex story or scenario can be perfectly credible if the individual events and actions all work like clockwork. There are three ways that I can see an incredibly complex scenario such as you have envisaged (or the Atlanticist plan) working flawlessly

1) As an extremely good work of fiction where a writer spends some effort explaining how everything worked
2) As a historic record where some such complex plan worked out despite failures of many individual parts (20/20 hindsight)
3) But as a prediction of what can happen in the future - the number of things that can go wrong are so large that anyone who actually makes such a plan can only hope that things will go as per plan
Well I simply wrote - "not entirely impossible". Further, my pointer was about Paki need to score against the Hindu and not just against India. It was not about a generalized CT for some ephemeral alignment to put down the "Hindu" [well many influential orgs have expressed their fond wish to succeed in ventures which can only succeed at the cost of the "Hindu" - but OT here].

A number of things can go wrong in any scenario. For example, consider the number of factors that need to coincide and go properly for a "rump state" and a distinct Talibanistan to be formed.

No Talibanistan can survive in the designated area, without having supply chain relationships with AFG and the rest of Pak. if a Talibanistan really forms, it has to have as its main base the ethnicity of the Pashtuns, which forms the centre of gravity also of AFG politics and its dominant southern part.

Therefore a separate Talibanistan distinct from a remaining AFG, means AFG has to be formally partitioned.That has its own problems. Otherwise, Talibanistan will simply be an extension of AFG areawise, and not a separate state.

That area in itself can only support itself economically by extracting taxation from any trade that may pass through the area between Pak and AFG, or the illegal drugs, arms and women trafficking. Traditionally, this has meant that any regional regime or power here had to ally with or de-facto become part of either an AFG/Iran based power or the east of Indus plains power.

Moreover, for the rump state to have a distinct existence, there has to be an absence of Talib influence in Pakjab, Sindh, and the northern territories around Islamabad which are within gunshot range of the heartland of Talib influence in Swat. Already, in most of western Pakjab talib influence is quite strong. In the absence of any practical "state" in Pak, the common Paki is gradually veering towards acceptance of Talib and affiliated militant orgs which carry out "dawa" and perform as an alternative state machinery.

There will be too many overlaps in affiliations for distinct existences of a rump state and a Talibanistan.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

brihaspati wrote:
Therefore a separate Talibanistan distinct from a remaining AFG, means AFG has to be formally partitioned.That has its own problems. Otherwise, Talibanistan will simply be an extension of AFG areawise, and not a separate state.

That area in itself can only support itself economically by extracting taxation from any trade that may pass through the area between Pak and AFG, or the illegal drugs, arms and women trafficking. Traditionally, this has meant that any regional regime or power here had to ally with or de-facto become part of either an AFG/Iran based power or the east of Indus plains power.

Moreover, for the rump state to have a distinct existence, there has to be an absence of Talib influence in Pakjab, Sindh, and the northern territories around Islamabad which are within gunshot range of the heartland of Talib influence in Swat. Already, in most of western Pakjab talib influence is quite strong. In the absence of any practical "state" in Pak, the common Paki is gradually veering towards acceptance of Talib and affiliated militant orgs which carry out "dawa" and perform as an alternative state machinery.

There will be too many overlaps in affiliations for distinct existences of a rump state and a Talibanistan.
True.

It's a bit like creating diamonds. if you can create and sustain the correct conditions it will happen. The problem is in creating those conditions.

For a Talibanistan to exist formally - it will need supplies. I believe that an informal Talibanistan exists now because those supplies are coming from Pakistan. In fact Pakistan has "managed" that Talibanistan perfectly well by ceding Pakistani territory from the period right after 9-11 when the Taliban were pushed out of Afghanistan. Of course "Talibanistan" is just a name I have conjured up.

But Pakistan seems to be suffering some side effects of allowing such poison to exist without border controls.(That Pakistanis are no better is known mainly to Indians). The US is demanding that they apply those border controls on the Taliban and the Pakis seem unable to do that. But they do hope that Afghanistan will someday become free of the US so the Taliban can "go back"

My thoughts revolve around the idea that the US will not really desert Afghanistan. The vassals of Pakistan who now occupy Talibanistan will not have a free run in Afghanistan (as per my guess). So this "informal Talibanistan" will continue to survive in Pakistan because the Paki army is not getting rid of it. But the US is sitting in Pakistan as well and asking the Pakistani army to "hem in" the Taliban. The offensives to "reclaim" Swat and "clear" South Waziristan were exactly what the US wanted to see the Pakistani army perform. Now they demand that Pakistan do that in North Waziristan as well and that is being resisted. Hence Talibanistan survives informally. Out of reach of the US (except for drones), blessed by the Pakistan army, but unable to spread into Pakistan (courtesy the same Pakistan army) or into Afghanistan (courtesy the USA).

Pakistan seems to be selectively trying to eliminate anti-Pakistan forces from the Taliban and encourage pro-Pakistan ones. I just wonder if that will be possible. People say (and that includes me) that it will not be able to control an ideologically motivated militia in this way. But the reason for my interest in details of how Pakistan may try to mould the character of the Taliban is that it is in India's interest to encourage exactly the opposite and allow an anti-Pakistani Taliban to survive. As long as such an anti-Pakistan Taliban survives they will keep the Paki army (among other Pakistanis) busy fighting inside Pakistan.

I also wonder what it would take for Pakistan to eliminate this informal Talibanistan - but Pakistan has never actually controlled the area - nobody has - so it will never get eliminated. So if it can never be eliminated, what other options can exist for the future?

The Taliban are supposedly getting strong enough to challenge the "Pakistani state" . Now we all know that the Pakistani state is supporting Taliban so if the Taliban take over Pakistan you can bet that is the wish of the Pakistani state - to hell with what America desires. But the US is likely to put up one hell of a fight and pay whoever it takes to stop the Taliban from taking over. Whom are we (India) going to support? Can the Taliban really take over? Is there a possibility of an anti-Pakistan rump state supported by America (and perhaps India) to form.

Finally. Will the US really resist a Taliban takeover of Pakistan? If not, what's in store for us?
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by partha »

Enjoyed the posts related to history. Thanks.
Our history books are a failure. High school text books have at most 2 pages about Shivaji out of which half a page will be his photo. Any good book on Marathas detailing their strategy, vision? Also suggest some good books on the rise of Sikhs as a bonus.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by SBajwa »

by Prem:
Atri Jee,
Najeebullah or Hameeullah, whats the difference as both Ullahs fellows follow and worship alien ideology which invited Abdali's invasion for saving 'islam" from kaffir sons of soil. The very fact that Muslamans living in india invited foreign power to finish Indics and they still revere him says volume about their degradation .
And their current progeny is buying nukes from China, Missiles from North Korea, while their own brethren around the world are still of the same category which is "bandit invaders murdering innocents"., all to establish "pure Mughal regime" in India., and sunni/wahabi regime whereever they live (USA, Canada, UK, Australia, Europe)!, using the local flexible law and benifits for their advantage.

The rest of their brothers in Saudis/etc are good for nothing as they only have oil money. In fact today there is not a single powerful islamic regime anywhere in the world ("Secular" Turkey is probably the most powerful?)

When you hear the terrorists talking to each other over phone and murdering common people (bombay attack)., I do not see any difference what so ever between earlier raids by Nadir/Abdali and these. Same attacks just different time period using the latest weapons availble to murder common children, women and men!

Best possible solution to manage pakistan is make it protectorate of USA/India with no Army. This is only possible after an Overt WAR between India and Pakistan., which currently USA is trying its best to avoid! but all these "Peace" efforts are just delaying the eventual war and the more you delay the war more people/economy will suffer.

India indeed has taken the route of USA (in USA vs. USSR) which is

1. Develop Economy by integrating it with rest of the world.
2. Modernize defense forces.
3. Wait and watch., and hope that Pakistan will sooner or later kill itself.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Atri »

partha wrote:Enjoyed the posts related to history. Thanks.
Our history books are a failure. High school text books have at most 2 pages about Shivaji out of which half a page will be his photo. Any good book on Marathas detailing their strategy, vision? Also suggest some good books on the rise of Sikhs as a bonus.
"Marathi Riyasat" by G.S.Sardesai. It is available in concise form in English as well as "New History of Marathas". Fantastic coverage of contemporary geopolitics, "the great game", military technology and complex interplay of various powers including the women from Peshwa family (who constituted one of the most powerful intellectual and ideological force for whatever good and bad things done by them). This is the most authoritative work on Marathas that I have read so far. For earlier Marathas (Shivaji) there are many resources. Jadunath Sarkar, Narhar Kurundkar et al.

I have tried to chalk this in Maratha thread and distorted history thread as well as partition thread. Very important to know this history to understand Partition and Pakistan. Today's India in Punjab and Bengal is precisely that region which was the maximum extent of Maratha raids. The disestablishment of entrenched Mullahs and Qazis in every village raided and looted by Marathas in their expansion is one of the factors for strong Hindu traditions in western Bengal and eastern Punjab. Of course, lot many factors played thereafter which led to partition, which we all know here. Just that this is where it all began. Without knowing this history, one cannot have complete grasp of picture today. Death of Aurangzeb in MH was the watershed moment in history of India.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

An excellent and eminently archivable article - cross post from the Pacqui thread.
The argument for Balkanizing Pakistan or, more specifically, fragmenting the Islamic Republic so it's easier to police and economically develop, has been on the table since Pakistan's birth in 1947 when the country was spit out of a British laboratory. And lately, the concept is looking more appealing by the day, because as a result of flawed boundaries combined with the nexus between military rule and Islamic extremism, Pakistan now finds itself on a rapid descent toward certain collapse and the country's leaders stubbornly refuse to do the things required to change course. But before allowing Pakistan to commit state suicide, self-disintegrate and further destabilize the region, the international community can beat them to the punch and deconstruct the country less violently.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by brihaspati »

shiv wrote
My thoughts revolve around the idea that the US will not really desert Afghanistan. The vassals of Pakistan who now occupy Talibanistan will not have a free run in Afghanistan (as per my guess). So this "informal Talibanistan" will continue to survive in Pakistan because the Paki army is not getting rid of it. But the US is sitting in Pakistan as well and asking the Pakistani army to "hem in" the Taliban. The offensives to "reclaim" Swat and "clear" South Waziristan were exactly what the US wanted to see the Pakistani army perform. Now they demand that Pakistan do that in North Waziristan as well and that is being resisted. Hence Talibanistan survives informally. Out of reach of the US (except for drones), blessed by the Pakistan army, but unable to spread into Pakistan (courtesy the same Pakistan army) or into Afghanistan (courtesy the USA).
There are only three possible powers with requisite resources and the geostrategic drive to consider keeping and using Talebs : USA, PRC, Iran. Whenever two or more interested parties have the same objective in competition with each other, once joined in the game, no party can withdraw unless forced to by direct defeat or exhaustion of resources.

USA finds controlling the Talebs difficult, and unreliable as tools although effective and powerful when under control. Therefore they need a handle or pressure on Talebs to make them useful. USA's experience is perhaps shaped by the not so pleasant experience of once using Khomeini to replace the Shah. So, since then, whenever USA has used Islamic Jihadi groupings, it has also simultaneously tried to encourage dictatorial regimes dependent on USA to keep a dagger hanging on Jihadis. AQ and the Talebs had to be balanced out through the PA and the ISI.

To keep the warlord elite of AFG happy, and a force to balance Jihadi proper, they need to keep Karazai-types in formal power and keep them dependent on USA, while using the Taleb types to keep Karazai types in line. So they need the Talebs in AFG but not totally down and out. So all this may have prompted the USA to pressurize the PA to weaken its connections to teh Talebs and force them back into the AFG theatre.

The ISI-PA-Taleb interconnections contradict or thwart the US objective in using Talebs for their own purpose. but this does not necessarily imply that USA wants to destroy the Talebs.
Pakistan seems to be selectively trying to eliminate anti-Pakistan forces from the Taliban and encourage pro-Pakistan ones. I just wonder if that will be possible. People say (and that includes me) that it will not be able to control an ideologically motivated militia in this way. But the reason for my interest in details of how Pakistan may try to mould the character of the Taliban is that it is in India's interest to encourage exactly the opposite and allow an anti-Pakistani Taliban to survive. As long as such an anti-Pakistan Taliban survives they will keep the Paki army (among other Pakistanis) busy fighting inside Pakistan.
I agree that it will be impossible to control the ideologically motivated militia in this way. But motivating is a two way process when the matrix of memes are shared on both sides. Which is why I maintained that when the ISI and PA went ahead and formed the Talebs with an explicit ideological agenda, over time parts of the ISI+PA in touch with the Taelbs will themselves be modified and motivated ideologically. The question is that the more Pak fails in its declared objectives formally as an ideological nation [and success to become the crown jewel of the Ummah], the more will the "converted" among the Paki establishment feel the need to Talebanize as the next phase of the destiny of Pakification. Talebans will appear to be the "correct" way forward to achieve the original goals of Pak - Jinnah's methodology will be seen to have failed but his purpose and objective better served by Talibanization.

Surely, not all of the establishment will feel that way. Some will be scared of having their lifestyles damaged and will move out of the main sphere of influence to seek comfortable and ranting asylums. But I feel that this section will be eased out of the Pak establishment.

My point is that to be anti-Pakistan, we have to probe what is considered by the main centre of gravity of the PA+ISI establishment to be Pakistan. So in that sense for the "converted" Talebs may not appear to be anti-Pakistan.
I also wonder what it would take for Pakistan to eliminate this informal Talibanistan - but Pakistan has never actually controlled the area - nobody has - so it will never get eliminated. So if it can never be eliminated, what other options can exist for the future?

The Taliban are supposedly getting strong enough to challenge the "Pakistani state" . Now we all know that the Pakistani state is supporting Taliban so if the Taliban take over Pakistan you can bet that is the wish of the Pakistani state - to hell with what America desires. But the US is likely to put up one hell of a fight and pay whoever it takes to stop the Taliban from taking over. Whom are we (India) going to support? Can the Taliban really take over? Is there a possibility of an anti-Pakistan rump state supported by America (and perhaps India) to form.

Finally. Will the US really resist a Taliban takeover of Pakistan? If not, what's in store for us?
For USA, a Taleban takeover of Pak is not necessarily bad, except that the Talebs will grow stronger and therefore more independent of USA and therefore less subservient to fulfilling USA's strategic interests in AFG and PAK. Further the risk is that they may provoke India and then the outcome becomes uncertain. It could have political ramifications within India that could complicate things for the current projected gameplan with India. Talebs could be defeated, and PRC get involved, spreading around into a general Asian war.

Worse, India could come under the influence of "land-grab" mentality after defeating the TalebPA which destroys the base of operations on the subcontinent for USA. Out of these considerations USA may try to resist a Taleban takeover, but it may not be in a position to prevent it entirely.

Whichever stance the rump state [if at all] takes, anti-pakistan or pro-Pakistan, one thing is sure - it will definitely be anti-Indian openly and anti-USA covertly. So as far as India is concerned, both Talebanistan and the rump state will be anti-Indian.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by brihaspati »

USA definitely would like to leave AFG as quickly as possible, but as I wrote in a previous post, it would now be impossible until it is militarily completely defeated and forced to leave - which I think will be soon enough. It is the "last phase" of Vietnam scenario. "Surges", which seem to initially succeed but then lose momentum, but USA cannot leave because it will be seen to lose tremendous amounts of face.

So the USA is indeed stuck but if it over winters this year, its dead-fish. That should be taken into consideration as a possibility while thinking of the Talebanization of Pak. So getting teh Talebs to share power is important from the USA side. This can have favourable impact on Taleb desire to extend their "emirate" into the Paki wet dream of a "Caliphate".

USA cannot take the risk of creating a rump state and regime in the north of AFG under the NA, fearing it to come under Hazara and Iranian influence. So this method of keeping the south under pressure is out of question. What it may try is to carve out a territory from Balochistan, which is strategically sound in providing sea-lane and land corridor to keep the pressure on Talebs, Pashtuns, and Pak but tactically infeasible, because all of Taleb, Pakjabi and Iran will oppose this vehemently.

I do not see Balkanization as a sustainable option. It will be an even greater bottomless basket than all the previous bottomless baskets created by western powers, all taken together. How long will they be able to keep it with their ongoing resource constraints and not lose it to PRC? Moreover in Europe, Balkanization of Yugoslavia creating a muslim homeland and toehold for Islamic Jihad could be somehow balanced by surrounding non-Muslim fragments. However, Balkanization of Pak will simply create more of the same black sheep.
Last edited by brihaspati on 11 Jul 2010 20:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Pratyush »

Shiv & Bhrirspati, reading the exchange of views between the two of you. It seems that thre is little to chose for us Indians as whoever is in charge of TSP. Either today or after the great fall. They will continue to be anti Indian.

Having conluded so what are the options for us Indics in order to minimise the fallout for us. How do we quaranteen ourselves from the followers of talibanism, because I dont think that we or any one else can reah an acomodation with these people.

What can we do to make sure that the virus that is incubating in land of the pure remains confined to them.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

brihaspati wrote:
Worse, India could come under the influence of "land-grab" mentality after defeating the TalebPA which destroys the base of operations on the subcontinent for USA. Out of these considerations USA may try to resist a Taleban takeover, but it may not be in a position to prevent it entirely.

Whichever stance the rump state [if at all] takes, anti-pakistan or pro-Pakistan, one thing is sure - it will definitely be anti-Indian openly and anti-USA covertly. So as far as India is concerned, both Talebanistan and the rump state will be anti-Indian.
To me this causes little concern for reasons I have stated time and again. India will handle Pakistan militarily whether Pakistan stands in front of us in a Pakistan avatar or in a Taliban avatar.

For this reason we must have a hand in Pakistan's political future no matter what shape that takes. Insulation from Pakistan as suggested in the post above this one is a terrible option. One cannot insulate from ideas, but one can impose one's ideas on others. The battle should be taken into Pakistan whether Pakistan is split or whole, Taliban or pretend moderate as it is now.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by brihaspati »

Well the concern is mainly from USA side. Insulation is okay, if part of an intervention strategy that "keeps out" but allows us to "go out". Isolation will not work. No defense is entirely a defense, and no offensive action is without elements of defensive action.

I guess the fundamental confusion in strategy happens because we have not been able to decide as a nation, what we want to do with Muslims and what we want to do with Islam on the entire subcontinent. Note that what we want to do with Islam and what we want to do with Muslims need not be the same thing. This may sound paradoxical, but I guess we have been unable in our own strategic thinking to separate the two. This creates problems in formulating policy. We abhor Islam, and find it unacceptable in most of its forms. From this we don't know what to do with Muslims because our abhorrence for the ideology transfers to the individual, and we wish they didn't exist. If they exist, they should not be in touch and proximity. If they appear too numerous to wish out of existence to create a neutralizing and sanitizing non-mans land in between us, almost like corralling wild and dangerous beasts or contagious disease into an enclosed area.

This is easily translated into an overwhelming fear, which prevents engagement. Once we decide that we are going to emasculate islam as a Jihadi and politico-militarist ideology in the long run, and target ideological neutralization at the least if not a total conversion "out" into "other faiths", then what to do with current territory, population and Muslims should be clear. It means gaining rashtryia control over the lives of these people. Be it as a part of an international overseeing regime, or manipulating from such a start into full rashtryia sovereignty under India - Indian rashtryia control becomes the target.

Whether it is done by war, covert and low-intensity or periodic high-intensity conflicts, encouraging balkanization tendencies in regions carefully chosen to not have any capacity for sustenance [such as Balochistan] and get them to weaken each other to the point of collapse and making it easier to take rashtryia control, to carry out agitprop aimed at subtly destabilizing and weakening bonds between segments of Paki society such as a slogan for land-redistribution, autonomy [another non-starter, already tried and only deepening crises from 90's], etc.

We need to think of the land and its people as "our problem" too, and we need to be prepared to deal with them in our own way - heavy handed if necessary, sweet-nothing-cooing in the other ear while boxing the one closest to the right hand, if necessary.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

When USA leaves Afghanistan, either they have to show some change in comparison to the situation in 2001 or they would be considered defeated.

If USA could show that a stable political dispensation has taken root in Afghanistan, which is different than that of the Taliban, which was against providing safe sanctuary to Al Qaeda and other American enemies, than America could safely have gone home and cried mission accomplished. Democracy was simply an additional criteria added on, partly to help in finding the political dispensation and partly as a PR gag.

Now if democracy breaks down, it is a setback compared to the high ambitions. But USA can hark back to the original goals and change the focus. But now it seems that it will all return to 2001 status.

So the 1900 coalition lives would have been for nothing. USA would neither have finished off Al Qaeda, a big milestone of which would have been arresting or killing Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri. Nor would America have secured the mineral wealth of Central Asia, nor would have America really gained a durable beachhead in the middle of the most important continent on the planet.
So none of American goals, either stated or assumed would have met.

On top of it, USA cannot even show any durable change of political dispensation in Afghanistan, a secondary goal, which makes the sole superpower lose face. That is probably America's biggest worry, because a superpower which loses face, loses its status as superpower. Much of the influence a superpower exerts in the world, is exerted simply by the general consensus that it is a superpower, without offering either carrots or showing sticks. That would now fade away. In the future, everything USA wants done, USA would have to spend valuable capital, either in treasure or in credible threats.

USA has already taken out Saddam Hussein from power, a major bulwark against Shi'ite Iran and have almost given Iraq to Iran on a platter. But inspite of that, Iran does not have full dominance over Iraq.

So in principle, USA would be willing to sacrifice some of its strategic interests if it allows USA to preserve its status as superpower, which gets done, what it claims it will do.

USA could be persuaded to opt for a dispensation, which though at first glance would be contrary to its strategic interests in Central Asia, i.e. a country, which would be willing to have a close relationship with both Moscow and Tehran, it would nevertheless be a the quickest way to get out with a head held high, and the proclaimed enemies of USA would not be allowed a total victory.

If USA leaves Afghanistan with Taliban running over the Afghan Govt., then it would certainly be a victory for anti-American Islam. If the Taliban gets to have only part of Afghanistan as its domain, lets say Pushtunistan, and it is forced to respect the borders with a Northern Alliance dominion in the North of Afghanistan, say under the threat of retaliation against now public Taliban targets, then America can call it a victory, because it would have forced the enemies of America to respect something, in this case a border between North Afghanistan and Pushtunistan.

So a victory of USA can be proclaimed only if USA forces the forces fighting USA to respect something.

I believe that Afghanistan can be formed into an ethnic confederation with 'provisions for the protection of ethnic minorities' with the Pushtun areas being left to be taken over by the Taliban, for which Pakistan vouches.

In fact a Northern Afghanistan (non-Pushtun) and a Taliban-occupied Afghanistan would be an ideal situation for USA, because it could really have a beachhead in the very heart of Asia, which is dependent on it for security from a dangerous Taliban in the South as well as for funds to keep the country viable.

It would have the option of secure supply routes from either
  • Baluchistan along Iran's border but on the Pakistani side and West Afghanistan
  • From the North through Turkmenistan
  • From a corridor to the East of Pakistan, say through Northern Areas
  • From India, as and when PoK become part of India
  • Over Russia and CARs, if USA develops some sort of understanding with Russia
The supply routes even now are far from secure, with the Taliban looting the trucks every now and then.

The fallacy USA is making in its Afghanistan strategy is that it thinks it needs to occupy and secure land in Southern Afghanistan and keep Taliban out. That makes it easy for Taliban who do not want to occupy land but simply to de-facto rule using fear of retribution. USA can turn the tables and force the Taliban to set up administration in Pushtun areas of Afghanistan, so that USA has the option of attacking as and when they choose.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

brihaspati wrote: This is easily translated into an overwhelming fear, which prevents engagement. Once we decide that we are going to emasculate islam as a Jihadi and politico-militarist ideology in the long run, and target ideological neutralization at the least if not a total conversion "out" into "other faiths", then what to do with current territory, population and Muslims should be clear.
An equally strong fear of the Hindu kafir exists on the other side. I would not be hoodwinked by bluster and bravado. In fact I believe the ideas you have expressed (quoted below) would be more true of the idea of Pakistan than the "average" point of view in India
we wish they didn't exist. If they exist, they should not be in touch and proximity. If they appear too numerous to wish out of existence to create a neutralizing and sanitizing non-mans land in between us, almost like corralling wild and dangerous beasts or contagious disease into an enclosed area.
If the relative absence of such thoughts in India are a disability in any way we are faced with the question of whether such thoughts must be fostered and encouraged within India before we reach consensus on what to do with Pakistan, or whether some kind of plan of action must be put into place despite the relative absence of such sentiment in India.

In my view - any attempt to impose thought processes on Indians as they are would be a civilizational battle with no end, and hence it would be a more pragmatic plan to take Indians as they are and formulate a plan for Pakistan.

As I stated earlier, in my view Islam minus coercion would do for now. If islam is coercion and Islam cannot exist without coercion that is just tough luck. All coercive elements will simply have to be killed if they use force. I don't think this is the time to philosophize and ask questions about who will agree to this and who won't agree. The dead will never disagree and those who want to use coercive force need to be dead. I think this part is just a rehash of a discussion some pages ago.

There is no such thing as discussion and debate if one side reserves the right to kill. All discussions about Islam expose you to the risk of being killed if you say certain things. This is a completely unacceptable state of affairs and has been allowed to last for too many centuries.

For you, the choices are no debate or war. No debate is a bad choice because it does not protect you from being coerced or killed. The only choice is war. But in war we can have two choices
1) Kill only the killers
2) Kill everyone whether he is a killer or not.

Both options have been followed in the past. But for reasons that I do not want to go into in detail, only option 1 is practicable.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by brihaspati »

shiv wrote
An equally strong fear of the Hindu kafir exists on the other side. I would not be hoodwinked by bluster and bravado. In fact I believe the ideas you have expressed (quoted below) would be more true of the idea of Pakistan than the "average" point of view in India

Quote:
we wish they didn't exist. If they exist, they should not be in touch and proximity. If they appear too numerous to wish out of existence to create a neutralizing and sanitizing non-mans land in between us, almost like corralling wild and dangerous beasts or contagious disease into an enclosed area.
I thought that it was quite clear from the context of my writing, that what I was saying as "we wish...." is again clearly connected to a certain derivation from the "supposed" overwhelming abhorrence of the "Muslim". I had already indicated my personal opinion in the expression "that what we do with Islam need not be the same as what we do with the Muslim". Here I clearly separated the follower from the ideology. In the subsequent text I was pointing out the possible fallacies of not maintaining this separation and confusing the two. If I am not recommending "confusing the two", then whatever coercive measure I may recommend about the ideology, does not necessarily cover "all" its followers. Therefore I am not necessarily talking only of "war" on Paki commons. So I am not sure you are interpreting my words accurately.
If the relative absence of such thoughts in India are a disability in any way we are faced with the question of whether such thoughts must be fostered and encouraged within India before we reach consensus on what to do with Pakistan, or whether some kind of plan of action must be put into place despite the relative absence of such sentiment in India.

In my view - any attempt to impose thought processes on Indians as they are would be a civilizational battle with no end, and hence it would be a more pragmatic plan to take Indians as they are and formulate a plan for Pakistan.

As I stated earlier, in my view Islam minus coercion would do for now. If islam is coercion and Islam cannot exist without coercion that is just tough luck. All coercive elements will simply have to be killed if they use force. I don't think this is the time to philosophize and ask questions about who will agree to this and who won't agree. The dead will never disagree and those who want to use coercive force need to be dead. I think this part is just a rehash of a discussion some pages ago.
Now I am sure, reading back on the passage I quoted from you, that this is also another form of "thought imposition". In fact anyone who will insist that "certain things" have to happen in certain way only, or not ask questions about "who will agree and who will not agree", or that those who want to use coercive force need to be dead - all are a kind of ideological demand that "people" should think in certain ways and not in other ways.

There could also be some small problems in such a demand, for example - if you simply say that all those who want to use coercive force need to be dead - then those who think of or want to use coercive force to defend themselves against "other's" coercion also need to be dead. That perfectly fits in with the the demand that many Islamists have placed in the past and many Paki ideologues place even now - that Indians and Hindus need to be dead because they dare to resist. So justification of use of coercion always depends on the viewpoint and position and context of the user or proposer of coercion.

Problem is, even to ask people to "think", you are assuming leadership in initiating "thought". That can be relevant only if either the "people" are not thinking themselves, or if "they are not thinking rightly". In the first case, by demanding that they think, you are then imposing a thought they did not want to think of in the first place. In the second place you are trying to "correct" or change the deafult thinking of the "people". But how will you reconcile that with the theory that Indian's think in a certain way civilizationally and therefore we cannot intervene in that thought process?
There is no such thing as discussion and debate if one side reserves the right to kill. All discussions about Islam expose you to the risk of being killed if you say certain things. This is a completely unacceptable state of affairs and has been allowed to last for too many centuries.

For you, the choices are no debate or war. No debate is a bad choice because it does not protect you from being coerced or killed. The only choice is war. But in war we can have two choices
1) Kill only the killers
2) Kill everyone whether he is a killer or not.

What I wrote actually was

"Once we decide that we are going to emasculate islam as a Jihadi and politico-militarist ideology in the long run, and target ideological neutralization at the least if not a total conversion "out" into "other faiths", then what to do with current territory, population and Muslims should be clear. It means gaining rashtryia control over the lives of these people. Be it as a part of an international overseeing regime, or manipulating from such a start into full rashtryia sovereignty under India - Indian rashtryia control becomes the target.

Whether it is done by war, covert and low-intensity or periodic high-intensity conflicts, encouraging balkanization tendencies in regions carefully chosen to not have any capacity for sustenance [such as Balochistan] and get them to weaken each other to the point of collapse and making it easier to take rashtryia control, to carry out agitprop aimed at subtly destabilizing and weakening bonds between segments of Paki society such as a slogan for land-redistribution, autonomy [another non-starter, already tried and only deepening crises from 90's], etc.

I am not sure how the wide mixture of methods I suggested, which includes both coercive and non-coercive methods can be reduced to a stark choice [or non-choice actually!] between "no debate" and "war".
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Pranav »

x-post from TSP thread:
Hmm ... what is the definition of "stability".
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Pratyush »

X posting from TSP thread.

Ssridhar, Acharya, Gagan,

Myopia is always consdered as a weakness in any cultural context. What we need to find out is how to hurt the 3.5 friends of TSP for the myopia of TSP. As they may have deep pockets but they can't have pockets deep enough to keep bailing out TSP in prepetuity. Once that is accomplished only then can we have some breathing space.

JMT
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Pranav »

Pratyush wrote:X posting from TSP thread.

Ssridhar, Acharya, Gagan,

Myopia is always consdered as a weakness in any cultural context. What we need to find out is how to hurt the 3.5 friends of TSP for the myopia of TSP. As they may have deep pockets but they can't have pockets deep enough to keep bailing out TSP in prepetuity. Once that is accomplished only then can we have some breathing space.

JMT
response can also be x-posted:

Can't declare hostilities against all 3.5 godfathers. Saama, Daama, Bheda, Danda are applicable to actors within TSP as well as to external sponsors.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

X-Posted from TSP Thread
SSridhar wrote:Whatever was needed to be done was done to create this artificial entity called Pakistan and its survival depends on the hatred for Hindustan and its denizens, whether there are 3½ friends or not. Of course, the 3½ are clever enough to exploit the situation.
Paranoia about the neighbor is one of the most effective tools the British and then the Americans have used to advance their world domination.
  • Pakistan's paranoia of India
  • Western Europe's paranoia of Soviet Union
  • Japan's paranoia of China
  • Japan's paranoia of a nuclear North Korea
  • Saudi Arabia and Gulf countries' paranoia of Iran
This paranoia of the neighbor is a free bonanza for the Anglo-American policy-makers. They had to spend very little capital for the persuasion of others. There was no need for either carrots or of sticks. A hollow promise of support, where the paranoia was against another ally, and a more substantial support, where the paranoia was against another, who was anyway an opponent of the Anglo-American world order.

In fact the paranoid countries have contributed enormously to the power projection of the Anglo-American combine. Every paranoid country has either paid in market access, in military purchases, in mineral wealth, or in mercenary services.

Those who have paid in market access, are the ones who have had a net gain as market access was mutual. India today is trying to integrate itself into the Anglo-American world order through this route, as well as to some extent through military purchases (read dependence). In return India also expects USA to be forthcoming on strategic issues, like on Pakistan. However market access today does not carry the same value as it did in the 1950s when a Cold War was in progress.

So America does not really feel obliged to India to an extent, that it would be willing to forsake the use of a military force of 1.5 million men, deployable in regions, where anti-American sentiment runs strong. Basically, in theory, it is still a good bang for the buck.

Paranoid states are an asset to world powers.
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