India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

[chetak]

Best to keep this gang out.

There is absolutely nothing that they do not know!!!!

Like a gas turbine engine, for instance?

chetak, what a cheap dig, not expected from you. keep them out and bring whom in ? or should we continue buying from outside for the next 100 years as well, is that the ideal solution in your eyes ?

Rahul M ji,

Not a cheap shot but a word of caution about not biting off more that you can chew.

We have been witness to the massive contretemps
involving the LCA, Kaveri and the Arjun. However which way you slice it a major part of the blame attaches to the DRDO. They have always overestimated their own capabilities without understanding the intricacies.

Their customers are not confident in their capabilities. Long on rhetoric and short on delivery is the usual epitaph of most DRDO projects. Yes, I know about changing specs and added features but what are the forces to do when the threat changes??

We lack in the basic inventions dept. At best we can copy or marginally improve an already existing system by getting feedback and making minor changes.

Our best are not in India. The faqers are all emigrated or desperately looking for green cards.
The govt is now talking of a rural service obligation for medicos and have failed miserably to motivate the doctors who have all been very expensively educated by the state at many multiples of the cost in relation the fees paid. Why not a similar thought for the IIT and allied lot?

We let our IIT and other educational elites freely leave the country and benefit others. The ones who could not avail this route have chosen industry in India to make a living.

A miniscule few have joined DRDO and stuck in there for the good of the country just cannot make the difference. The rest are just time servers like you and me.

It requires passion and motivation above and beyond the call of duty to make a real difference.
We sorely lack such people. Every one soon gets immersed in the daily drudge and the sheer effort of making it to the next grade without making waves or even tiny ripples. Conformity is the name of the game.

It will take more than the odd gentleman who has received an award for AIP(?) to make an AIP submarine in India.

Submarines are among the most complex of weapons systems.

Are you fondly imagining like a jingo that we are up to doing something like that? Let us not tread once again down that dreary old path of proven failure and fondly hope that the parties involved will have changed their spots and somehow this time around it is going to be different. The toothless tigers and leopards at the helm of affairs are still the same selfish jokers.

The correct way is collaboration and transfer of technology at whatever cost if it is to benefit us.
Iran has benefited by this method and I am not talking about the AQ Kahn nukes!!

AT best we should import and or collaborate with a good agency to do this. Mere promises of goodwill and pious protestations of delivery will not cut the mustard anymore.

Last but not the least, our plaintive bleating at every international fora of being a victim of terrorism is our undoing. The scavengers have taken note. Instead of standing up and fighting like a man, we are trying to see which international pehlewan's finger we can hold.

That is why the vultures have gathered in strength and our rotting mound of foreign reserves invested in a putrefying currency are attracting great pressure to buy anything and everything in the international arms supermarket with europe and america dividing up the booty without so much as a say so from us.

[sudeepj]

DRDO is the only organization in the country where some real science and engineering takes place, and lets keep them out. If they are to be kept out, who will come in? Surely our Chinese friends will help out.. no?

[Rahul M]

chetak ji, we are all aware of the weaknesses and the reasons behind it. (which is strictly speaking not the topic for this thread) but assuming all good are outside India is very naive, I've had enough exposure to people who think and do for a living to know that neither is IIT the last word in anything nor is a non-IITian automatically a duffer. I'm aware of duffers from both places or if you want even from hallowed places like MIT and other furrin places to know that it's the person who counts, not the degree after his name.

I'm also aware of the standard of people who get through to places like DRDO and many are very good to excellent people who sacrifice lucrative careers in pvt cos or abroad to work for the country. no one is naive enough to say that we would have AIP tomorrow due to one breakthrough, it was just one datapoint I wanted to clarify with Chacko. but for all their weaknesses it would be a gross disservice to deny the work these people have achieved on a drip-funding in the face of hostile opposition from both within and without the establishment.
you were talking of motivation, how on earth would they be motivated if the country and especially the users still does not acknowledge whatever contribution they have made after so much of effort and only seek to mock and humiliate them at every opportunity ? pardon me, but the attitude displayed by some servicemen towards R&D labs is even more hostile than they do for pakistan !!
an appraisal on merit rather than on decades old pre-conceived notions is the least they deserve from the country.

[chetak]

chetak ji, we are all aware of the weaknesses and the reasons behind it. (which is strictly speaking not the topic for this thread) but assuming all good are outside India is very naive, I've had enough exposure to people who think and do for a living to know that neither is IIT the last word in anything nor is a non-IITian automatically a duffer. I'm aware of duffers from both places or if you want even from hallowed places like MIT and other furrin places to know that it's the person who counts, not the degree after his name.

I'm also aware of the standard of people who get through to places like DRDO and many are very good to excellent people who sacrifice lucrative careers in pvt cos or abroad to work for the country. no one is naive enough to say that we would have AIP tomorrow due to one breakthrough, it was just one datapoint I wanted to clarify with Chacko. but for all their weaknesses it would be a gross disservice to deny the work these people have achieved on a drip-funding in the face of hostile opposition from both within and without the establishment.
you were talking of motivation, how on earth would they be motivated if the country and especially the users still does not acknowledge whatever contribution they have made after so much of effort and only seek to mock and humiliate them at every opportunity ? pardon me, but the attitude displayed by some servicemen towards R&D labs is even more hostile than they do for pakistan !!
an appraisal on merit rather than on decades old pre-conceived notions is the least they deserve from the country.

Many servicemen have had the very close opportunity to observe the scientists and the attitude that is brought to bear on their work.
There is no smoke without a fire. The rose tinted glasses have long since been removed and all projects are now being scrutinized dispassionately.

The early days of contempt and hostility of the scientists themselves towards the servicemen is sometimes unbelievable and it came much before the hostility from the forces who only reciprocated after much provocation. Just like very senior DRDO guys will not admit to this attitude publicly, very senior service officers have much to say about this.

The man who pays the piper is entitled to call the tune once in a while. To say that the forces should accept anything that come out of the lab in what ever form is a bit much. The services will support as long they see something worthwhile to support.

I repeat again that the scientists are nothing extraordinary. Not by a long shot. They get their basic, masters and doctoral degrees from the same places as do the folks in the services. Earlier the scientists would be consulted on some complicated problems on the field but for many years now the shoe is on the other foot. Some smart techie in uniform with practical field experience is often called out to consult for the scientists. The Kaveri marine GT is one example. The Naval LCA also had some very funny assumptions made by some scientists who had never seen a carrier. One could go on and on.

If you have exceptional people in the DRDO so do you in the Services. The early days of the poor soldier allegedly being in awe of the scientist is long gone. Now they can easily recognize scientific bullshit every time they see it. The proof of the pudding is always in the eating.

[chetak]

DRDO is the only organization in the country where some real science and engineering takes place, and lets keep them out. If they are to be kept out, who will come in? Surely our Chinese friends will help out.. no?

Most software and engineering work in DRDO is now outsourced for your kind information.

Pure sciences work is not much as TIFR and IISC etc have a lock on this.

A combined team with DRDO and the actual users can be formed. This team needs to be user driven as it is user funded in most cases.

All the Services have more engineering work routinely going on in their own organizations than does DRDO.

[Vivek K]

The rose tinted glasses have long since been removed and all projects are now being scrutinized dispassionately.

Can you say the same for imports?

If you have exceptional people in the DRDO so do you in the Services.

That is why we are still an independent country, in case you hadn't noticed. Criticizing obviously biased procurement policies of a handful is not service bashing.

The Kaveri marine GT is one example. The Naval LCA also had some very funny assumptions made by some scientists who had never seen a carrier.

And your point being? The Kaveri marine GT is a silver lining and the naval LCA is a great step forward - thanks to the Navy's approach that is obviously different from the other arms.

[chetak]

In my best knowledge, they get awards for a task accomplished. Could be a system in toto for a sub system. The award was not for AIP component.

chackojoseph ji,

There was a chap in one of the premier DRDO labs in Bangalore who would take off abroad at the drop of a hat to lecture on his achievements and that of his lab which he had led with distinction(?)
for over a couple of decades.

At one such conference he was cornered by some goras who were astonished that he had taken over two decades to develop some system that they had developed in a few years.

To put it rather politely, they did not have complimentary things to say to him.

This guy was famous for giving his pals and they in turn would give him all sorts of awards with hefty cash components.

On merciful retirement, his send off celebrations lasted two whole days!! with much weeping and poetry and breast beating to rival some dravidian parties.

Net achievement over two decades? Virtually nil for the prodigious resources consumed.

Mostly the awards here signify good networking and the ability to reciprocate favors.
Sometimes they are well deserved too.

We truly are a very rich country.

[chetak]

[
And your point being? The Kaveri marine GT is a silver lining and the naval LCA is a great step forward - thanks to the Navy's approach that is obviously different from the other arms.

Vivek K ji,

The Kaveri marine GT is a very smart face saver period. Nothing more nothing less.

The LCA navy will be missing its major deadlines, or hadn't you heard? It may not make the first carrier.

[Vivek K]

Yup, when we can have the DGMF block a superior tank for at least a decade and continuing to spew nonsense about it while allowing the induction of the less capable and more expensive T-90s, we must be rich, truly.

Look this is a useless argument so give it up. The services and the DRDO system should work together and not against each other. This type of bickering with blue against blue weakens us and allows outsiders to ridicule us. Why are Indians the loudest voice against Indian tech? Instead of supporting one against the other, we should hold them both to a higher standard since at stake is the independence of the homeland!

[Karan M]

1. Most software and engineering work in DRDO is now outsourced for your kind information.

Pure sciences work is not much as TIFR and IISC etc have a lock on this.

A combined team with DRDO and the actual users can be formed. This team needs to be user driven as it is user funded in most cases.

2. All the Services have more engineering work routinely going on in their own organizations than does DRDO.

Rarely has such absolute BS been written on this or any other forum. The world is indeed in awe of Hunky Tuffy and similar "engineering work".
Combined together, the BS in 1&2 is enough to fertilize the whole of South Asia.

If you have exceptional people in the DRDO so do you in the Services. The early days of the poor soldier allegedly being in awe of the scientist is long gone. Now they can easily recognize scientific bullshit every time they see it. The proof of the pudding is always in the eating.

Yes, surely, because of which we have the amazing estimation work done for the Gorshkov, the awe inspiring deal that is the Scorpene, the unbelievable expertise as shown in the Naval Warroom leak case, and of course, the most excellent RFI & RFP that are sent out by the all singing and dancing experts - which many a time end up being refloated, retendered, redone and end up costing the taxpayer a pretty sum.

Seriously, the amount of bullshit thats being peddled is amazing. The best part is its not even scientific.

The early days of contempt and hostility of the scientists themselves towards the servicemen is sometimes unbelievable and it came much before the hostility from the forces who only reciprocated after much provocation. Just like very senior DRDO guys will not admit to this attitude publicly, very senior service officers have much to say about this.

Examine your own attitude, which comes across loud and clear through your in posts - not much different from the days of feudalism, and how those who considered themselves powerful treated those who dared upset their uppity apple cart.

[chetak]

Yup, when we can have the DGMF block a superior tank for at least a decade and continuing to spew nonsense about it while allowing the induction of the less capable and more expensive T-90s, we must be rich, truly.

Look this is a useless argument so give it up. The services and the DRDO system should work together and not against each other. This type of bickering with blue against blue weakens us and allows outsiders to ridicule us. Why are Indians the loudest voice against Indian tech? Instead of supporting one against the other, we should hold them both to a higher standard since at stake is the independence of the homeland!

When any organization has a public sector mentality, its dangerous for all of us.

It has to be understood clearly that one is the teeth and the other is the tail. When the tail starts to wag the dog then the problems begin. DRDO is strongly represented in every arms import panel that has ever been formed in India. It is here that many imports are stopped by DRDO which offers to develop the system " much cheaper " and deliver the complete system, fully working and by next tuesday!!!

Import is thus stopped, DRDO fails to meet revised deadlines by many years. Threat changes because the pakis or the chinese have a new system.

New import is demanded by the Forces, new panel formed, same promises by DRDO and no system on the horizon.

What should the forces do? Make a new mountain division of scientists??

Have a policy for long term development with realistic deadlines and have imports when needed urgently.

Finally, any DRDO project where applicable, should be used led and user driven. It's the only way to meet deadlines and keep the peace.

[Karan M]

Yup, when we can have the DGMF block a superior tank for at least a decade and continuing to spew nonsense about it while allowing the induction of the less capable and more expensive T-90s, we must be rich, truly.

Look this is a useless argument so give it up. The services and the DRDO system should work together and not against each other. This type of bickering with blue against blue weakens us and allows outsiders to ridicule us. Why are Indians the loudest voice against Indian tech? Instead of supporting one against the other, we should hold them both to a higher standard since at stake is the independence of the homeland!

Vivek K, there are enough sane people in the services and DRDO who rise above petty ego clashes and work together effectively. Then there are the prima donna's who spend all their time dumping on those whom they perceive as their inferiors (bad english, oily hair, look at the dressing style) - as they say, empty drums make the loudest noise. Some even go to ridiculous lengths - seen the hack jobs in papers recently, post Arjun trials. Certain folks are pretty unhappy about the success of the former.

The gentleman who led the LCA project, was first superceded in his career by a junior, because staff at AHQ felt he was having an easy time at Bangalore. Such are the worthies who do "gung ho". He had to plead his case to the then CAS, who reluctantly took up his case.

There is an entire generation of the aforementioned gentlemen still around. They rubbish their peers who deign to work with the "blasted civilians", they run down the "inferior local scientists" loudly and publicly (put a couple of drinks in them and they'll even do so at public events in front of non Indians) and generally play the ant bully every where and every which where.

However, they are a declining race. More and more sane folk from the generations which have dealt and put up with patronising BS from the Russians and many others are climbign the ladder in the services, and they talk less and do more. And they go the extra mile in working with DPSUs and Pvt industry both to make things happen.

More power to them.

[Karan M]

When any organization has a public sector mentality, its dangerous for all of us.

Yeah, sure. Colonel Kaul of the IA, wounded in action during the IPKF ops.

Once he was past this, Colonel Kaul returned to active duty. A brief piece of good news was the awarding of the Vir Chakra. If he was thinking that the hard part was over he was to be strongly mistaken. A callous surgical specialist at the Jammu military hospital remarked that the work on his arm was a waste of effort and it should have been amputated! Then he was initially posted to Southern Command HQ. A Major General (one who had never been in combat) decided that the injury would have affected his brain. He was shunted to a Sub HQ to allow a favored officer to be posted in his place. This type of reaction was to be repeated by many. Unfavourable ACRs followed at every stage. Generals treated him with disdain and Army bureaucrats (both Generals and junior officers) continued to make him run pillar to post for his dues.

The reading is sometimes painful. While the stories are not unique as such (at least in India) one did not expect this in the Indian Army. The reader is left wondering the callous and inhuman behavior of some men in senior positions. What is it that brings such uncaring people in the higher ranks and in positions of power? Is this petty nature unique to us Indians? Regional chauvinism, religious cliques are all added to the mix. Again, all expected and seen widely in India - but one always hoped and prayed that it will be less in the armed forces. One hopes that this is a small percentage.

Public sector mentality indeed..

It has to be understood clearly that one is the teeth and the other is the tail.

Gee, I am superior, you blasted civilians better understand...and of course DRDO has no other mandate from the GOI vis a vis local industry and capabilities at all..

[chetak]

Yes, surely, because of which we have the amazing estimation work done for the Gorshkov, the awe inspiring deal that is the Scorpene, the unbelievable expertise as shown in the Naval Warroom leak case, and of course, the most excellent RFI & RFP that are sent out by the all singing and dancing experts - which many a time end up being refloated, retendered, redone and end up costing the taxpayer a pretty sum.

Karan M ji,

This is far and away OT.

My last post on this matter before matters get out of hand. Mods must be busy with the world cup.

What has the war room leak got to do with all this?

Greed is universal.

[chetak]

Gee, I am superior, you blasted civilians better understand...and of course DRDO has no other mandate from the GOI vis a vis local industry and capabilities at all..

No Karan M saar, that is not what was meant.

Every one has his job to do. No one is better or worse. The scientist will never be called on to take up arms but the Service guy is sometimes sent to work with DRDO.

The Navy had a pilot who lost a leg in an accident. He was returned to active flying and continued to serve with distinction. This was done against much opposition from the usual suspects. The Navy prevailed.

Some aberrations will always be there but more in exception than as a rule.

[Craig Alpert]

CCS Nod for Biological, Chemical, N-Defence Project

The Cabinet Committee on Security has cleared a Rs 285 crore Defence Ministry project for developing systems and equipment for protection against nuclear, biological and chemical (NBC) weapons and leakages.

"Under the project for NBC defence, DRDO has been tasked to develop quick and fast detection systems in case of an NBC attack on our vital installations and cities or leakage in any of the installations dealing with these materials," Defence Ministry officials told PTI here.

"In case on any attack or leakages, such detection systems will help in finding the exact sources of contamination and the authorities concerned would be able to react in a much more effective manner," they added.

..........................

[Karan M]

Karan M ji,

This is far and away OT.

My last post on this matter before matters get out of hand. Mods must be busy with the world cup.

What has the war room leak got to do with all this?

Greed is universal.

Chetakji, if you write bunk, somebody will point out that you wrote bunk. What I wrote was very clear. The services have a long, unparalleled record of enormous screw ups in procurement, which are usually brushed away by blaming it on the "blasted useless MOD", the inefficient, lazy civilian DRDO etc.

As such your claims of excellent engineering, and better/superior technical capabilities vis a vis the state industrial complex, are quite frankly, laughable, given that even the most basic of RFI/RFP which involve a basic understanding of technology are absolutely messed up. The services cannot even retain their competent technical professionals who make a beeline for the civilian life whenever they can, treated as they are by a brass which is yet to recognise their capability in most cases. The amount of outsourcing the services is also substantial. Unlike the DPSUs et al who keep core activities inhouse, the services are yet to demonstrate a good sustainable handle on even this endeavour, with the most routine of tasks taking as much time as it takes the civilian run OFB.

The amount of money the Gorshkov has cost India, the Scorpene, and other worthy endeavours, are many times over what entire R&D programs consume. And the best part is, these deals are then rushed through in near absolute secrecy, with a fraction of the media coverage they otherwise deserve. No gilt was damaged in these incidents as well.

The warroom leak, and the expose of the laughable security procedures that were observed, also point to the reality. The number of examples are legion.

As seen in your own posts, there is no element of introspection at all. Blaming it on the blasted civilians, the useless public sector etc are the usual we have come to expect.

While it may impress those unfamiliar with the situation at hand, long time observers would justifiably dismiss it as bombast.

No Karan M saar, that is not what was meant.

Every one has his job to do. No one is better or worse. The scientist will never be called on to take up arms but the Service guy is sometimes sent to work with DRDO.

The Navy had a pilot who lost a leg in an accident. He was returned to active flying and continued to serve with distinction. This was done against much opposition from the usual suspects. The Navy prevailed.

Some aberrations will always be there but more in exception than as a rule.

Chetak saar,

For every one example you quote as a claim that it is the norm, there are many more where top performers in the services where treated shabbily and not given their due. As a long time supporter of the services, I am well aware of the good and the not so good, and there is much to improve.

As such they are as much part of the "public sector" despite your claims to the contrary.

The scientist may not be called to take up arms, but then again that was not his job to begin with. And many scientists have gone above and beyond of what they are expected to do, paying the price in terms of family and other commitments. Furthermore, their mandate comes from the GOI to both support the services and create a domestic military industrial complex. They work under severe constraints and still attempt a thankless job. They, as much as you may think they are, are not your dogs to beckon and dismiss as you will. They belong to the GOI & have to do what the MOD decides, with the constraints as imposed by our national and economic position. In many cases, they even end up taking those service personnel who have a technical bent of mind while their parent organizations have little time for their efforts. Here as well, cases abound, including the missile, aircraft, vehicle and other programs.

Chetak, furthermore, I do think this needed to be pointed out. Your posts reek of elitist narcissism, and cut a very shoddy figure for those of us who still believe in the services and support them. Quite frankly, the rabid tone and tenor you display vis a vis those whom you consider your inferiors, namely the civilian scientific community, leads one to realize the incredible foresight displayed by our leaders at the time of independence, when they stressed on civilian leadership and oversight.

While you quote the "foreign" observers and their comments with such approval, many of them did & still do, think of you & your lot in much more pejorative terms, the fawning at the time of deal signing apart. Some of the comments I have heard, read and refuted, are not even worth printing on an open board. That you quote them as paragons of virtue is another pointer to the untenability of your claims.

Those whom you dismiss as the "support" are in fact, the only ones who actually give a fig for the services and continue to do so on a constant basis; the common people of India, are too caught up in their daily life to give a whit, bar the occasional surge of patriotism at wartime. Niche forums like this one dont count, unfortunately. Yet, you spare no effort on this board in attempting to belittle them at every turn.

Frankly - this sort of abusive behaviour may work in a hide bound hierarchical set up, but nobody puts up with this anywhere else apart from those in your "support" organizations. The more you spit on them, the more you cut off the few hands that actually support your lot. And nor will they put up with it forever. With the kind of opportunities that are now available, the current generation is not really into putting up with this behaviour either.

Do go ahead, and curse the MMS Govt for getting C-17's or the Russians for bilking you on the Gorshkovs - while the Indian taxpayer pays the price for the egotistical behavior above, and so do the Indian warfighters who end up getting shortchanged by their own people, who routinely play the useless civilian/MOD/DRDO/DPSU card to hide their shortcomings.

[darshhan]

If you go by the results then surely DRDO has failed in most of its endeavours(By failure I mean delivery of acceptable stuff within reasonable time frame which includes some delay also).Although we should not blame DRDO for all its failures.Lack of funding and autonomy are among the main reasons for DRDO's failures.For these reasons it is the govt. that has to be blamed.Without funding you can hardly do any research(the amount that India invests in research is very less compared to developed countries and even China) and lack of autonomy means you cannot hire the scientists on attractive salaries,thereby limiting the quality manpower that can be inducted in the organisation.Even worse you cannot fire the non performing staff.These reasons are solely due to govt. policies not DRDO.

There are other reasons where DRDO is responsible.First of all it takes the responsibility of developing most of the products that are needed by the services even when they don't have the resources and manpower to do so.I have been unable to understand rwhy can't DRDO simply say that they do not have the capability to develop some product.First they take the responsibility and then they are unable to fulfill it.This is the primary concern for the services.I suspect this is the result of DRDO bureaucracy at work.

Some posters will give the example of Arjun tank , saying that it is such a great tank and it is the army which is refusing to induct these tanks.Hence Army is at fault.I totally agree that Arjun is very good product and Army should induct it in force.But consider my point.Let us consider an analogy.Suppose you are invited to dinner by someone.You reach there at the stipulated time only to find that dinner is not ready.After waiting for 4 hours you are invited to taste the food and you find that the food sucks big time.You are forced to go to an expensive restaurant which by the way is the only one open at that time.The next day the same guy invites you again for the dinner and same scenario repeats itself.After some days this guy finally learns to prepare great food.But you see the problem.By this time you have started to lose the trust in this person.So no matter how good he cooks , he has to first redeem himself in your eyes.This is going to take time.On a similar note until the trust between DRDO and services is restored ,the services will always be hesitant and the onus for restoring that trust primarily lies on DRDO as of now(from the point of services).

One more thing that I would like to point is that DRDO should be involved only in strategic sector and nothing else.For example Missiles,BMD,Nuclear submarine,lasers,novel materials,Artificial intelligence,high performance computing,biological research etc.Currently DRDO is involved in lot of projects that private sector will be happy to do.It makes no sense for DRDO to pursue AIP for the submarines or assault rifles for infantry.

Remember Indigenisation doesn't mean Govermentization or Bureaucratization which is essentially what we have done over the last 50 years.

[Rahul M]

darshan, why don't you try and actually find out the history of arjun tank project for a change in stead of making silly assumptions about what must have happened and posting same old tired, inane and ill-informed analogies built on these assumptions ? it will save you a lot of effort from typing huge posts on foggy ideas and ignorance.

[darshhan]

Karan M ji , You are mentioning Goroshkov,war room leak case etc.These are failures on part of individuals whereas the rot in DRDO is systemic.Until unless you reform and restructure DRDO comprehensively , it will continue to flounder.You will be able to count its achievments on your fingertips.

Just look at where the rest of world is going and you will find that we are in serious danger of being left behind.

[Karan M]

If you go by the results then surely DRDO has failed in most of its endeavours(By failure I mean delivery of acceptable stuff within reasonable time frame which includes some delay also).

By these standards, most of worldwide developers failed in all their endeavours whether it was developing items for themselves, or supplying them to India. As such the Indian taxpayer has had to pay for subsidizing the arms industry worldwide while the indian industry never develops. Keeping a blinkered focus on "acceptable stuff within reasonable timeframe" is also ludicrous, because the guidelines for what is acceptable have kept changing, and the timelines are fairly unrealistic in many cases.

Although we should not blame DRDO for all its failures.Lack of funding and autonomy are among the main reasons for DRDO's failures.For these reasons it is the govt. that has to be blamed.Without funding you can hardly do any research(the amount that India invests in research is very less compared to developed countries and even China) and lack of autonomy means you cannot hire the scientists on attractive salaries,thereby limiting the quality manpower that can be inducted in the organisation.Even worse you cannot fire the non performing staff.These reasons are solely due to govt. policies not DRDO.

This is the usual stuff displayed on internet boards. R&D is not just about money, or hiring xyz. Its about infrastructure, its about the learning curve, and its about creating a pool of people who have come up the hard way. The US, Russia developed their capabilities over a century plus. They industrialized back in the 19th. The Chinese are now coming up with capabilities that took them an economic revolution to develop. Please ditch the platitudes and look beyond the obvious.

There are other reasons where DRDO is responsible.First of all it takes the responsibility of developing most of the products that are needed by the services even when they don't have the resources and manpower to do so.I have been unable to understand rwhy can't DRDO simply say that they do not have the capability to develop some product.First they take the responsibility and then they are unable to fulfill it.This is the primary concern for the services.I suspect this is the result of DRDO bureaucracy at work.

They take the responsibility, because they have people who are actually worried that India will lose whatever little it has by sitting on the sidelines and twiddling its thumbs while we dont plan ahead for capabilities and end up asking for generational items like fighter aircraft and tanks and missiles, in the cycle time of a product improvement, namely five years. The services tend to look at what their immediate requirements are. However, while they are consummate users of equipment and very professional at that, their abilities in terms of planning their requirements and actually looking towards the strategy of building a domestic MIC have been not upto par.

What should DRDO do then, offer to do nothing and wait for people to come up and say, here, take this? Thats worked very well for India so far, as the umpteen aircraft programs the IAF gave HAL, the tank R&D projects the Army gave DPSUs etc show. But there were none.

Frank reality is, that the service planning & MOD relationship was dysfunctional. The services (bar the Navy to some extent) never really bothered about indigenization, treated local manufacture as a problematic issue driven by politics and economics, and were the least bothered about forecasting reasonable requirements that could be met in a reasonable time. The MOD and GOI did next to nothing in terms of taking the initiative to define national objectives for the services to understand and work towards either. No planning was driven or even cleared at the GOI level for many years.

Requirements are invariably upto contemporary standards in areas where we have no experience and required ASAP. To break this logjam, the DRDO ended up taking the responsibility for many programs that should have otherwise been driven by other organizations. Those organizations had dealt with the services and GOI for a longer period of time, and knew enough to wisely stay out of the way. Take the case of the LCA. It was meant to be HAL which would lead it. When HAL saw the challenges, the budget and having dealt with the IAF and GOI via the Marut, they happily let ADA be formed to lead the program.

The point is not to point fingers, but see the big picture. If nobody takes the challenge then nothing will ever be done.

The biggest issue remains the inability of (some) in the various stakeholders to see the big picture and constantly dwell only on only their share of the pie and how to push their concerns.

Some posters will give the example of Arjun tank , saying that it is such a great tank and it is the army which is refusing to induct these tanks.Hence Army is at fault.I totally agree that Arjun is very good product and Army should induct it in force.But consider my point.Let us consider an analogy.Suppose you are invited to dinner by someone.You reach there at the stipulated time only to find that dinner is not ready.After waiting for 4 hours you are invited to taste the food and you find that the food sucks big time.You are forced to go to an expensive restaurant which by the way is the only one open at that time.The next day the same guy invites you again for the dinner and same scenario repeats itself.After some days this guy finally learns to prepare great food.But you see the problem.By this time you have started to lose the trust in this person.So no matter how good he cooks , he has to first redeem himself in your eyes.This is going to take time.On a similar note until the trust between DRDO and services is restored ,the services will always be hesitant and the onus for restoring that trust primarily lies on DRDO as of now(from the point of services).

If you ask a dosa guy to make you a continental meal, based on the tattered menu card of some foreign restaurant your relative who visited abroad told you about, and then want the exact same menu, when all the food items are denied to your guys for import, and end up rejecting the dish each time around, saying it doesnt taste right, does that make sense?

Either ways, your analogy and my response are gross oversimplifications of a very complex topic. Lets not even take this further.

One more thing that I would like to point is that DRDO should be involved only in strategic sector and nothing else.For example Missiles,BMD,Nuclear submarine,lasers,novel materials,Artificial intelligence,high performance computing,biological research etc.Currently DRDO is involved in lot of projects that private sector will be happy to do.It makes no sense for DRDO to pursue AIP for the submarines or assault rifles for infantry.

This has to be another one of the most confused pieces that one reads on internet boards. What is strategic and non strategic? If you see the technology that is involved at the subsystem level for most strategic and non strategic systems, its very similar. There is no magic strategic radar whereas we continue to import non strategic radars. Unless you work on building blocks of technology, forget making strategic things. And the clearance for these building blocks, in the Indian system only comes if you launch a program such as the LCA or Arjun.

[darshhan]

darshan, why don't you try and actually find out the history of arjun tank project for a change in stead of making silly assumptions about what must have happened stop posting same old tired, inane and ill-informed analogies built on these assumptions ? it will save you a lot of effort from typing huge posts on foggy ideas and ignorance.

Rahul M ji , I have no doubt that Arjun is a great tank and I have said so.I would also like Army to induct them in force instead of T-90.But the question is of trust or lack of it between Army and DRDO.I agree that there is a T-90/72 lobby in the army who would love to scuttle the Arjun project.But even among the army personnel who do not have any biases there is a lack of confidence in DRDO's abilities.Considering Arjun's performance this negative perception should change in future.

As far as Arjun's history is concerned DRDO has one version and Army has another.Even if I believe DRDO's version it is not going to be of any solace to me or the nation.It is not going to recreate the trust between services and DRDO.

I am more interested in how our Defence R&D base is expanded and optimized.I want to see that India is not dependent on other nations for critical technology.To achieve this DRDO will have to be restructured and reformed comprehensively(not just cosmetic changes).It will have to be autonomous as far as hiring and firing scientists/engineers are concerned.

In addition we will have to involve private enetrprise in defence R&D and production as soon as possible.FDI limits for foreign entrants will have to be raised till atleast 49%.Also in addition to behemoths like L&T,Mahindra and Tata ,small enterpreneurs should also be encouraged in both defence innovation and production.

OFBs/Defence PSU's near monopoly over defense procurement should be eliminated as soon as possible.If possible they should be privatised as well starting from the non performing units.

[Karan M]

Karan M ji , You are mentioning Goroshkov,war room leak case etc.These are failures on part of individuals whereas the rot in DRDO is systemic.

What nonsense. Gorshkov, warroom etc were failures of "individuals" it seems - what does it speak of the system then that routinely allows such "failures" to take place via "individuals" & no corrective action is taken in turn. Every other deal, and thousands of crores are routinely signed away at the last moment. Dont fool yourself - the rot in services procurement and procedures is equally systemic & far more wide ranging than given credit for.

And the nation continues to bleed its hard earned tax money in such boondoggles, while the sleight of hand focuses on the peanuts in the local MIC, which consumes not even a fraction of the resources frittered away in such deals as de jure. The only ones who benefit from this are the arms dealers, who still cannot believe that a nation like India exists & continues to buy the snake oil they peddle.

Until unless you reform and restructure DRDO comprehensively , it will continue to flounder.You will be able to count its achievments on your fingertips.

I doubt whether you know any DRDO or other Indian organizations achievements. Go ahead and prove me wrong on this aspect by listing what achievements you are aware of, and whether you run out of your fingertips or not.

Just look at where the rest of world is going and you will find that we are in serious danger of being left behind.

Again, where do you know of where the rest of the world is going and not?

Please dont put up such silly rhetorical flourishes. They dont even deserve a worthwhile reply.

[Karan M]

To understand how deep the rot is:

HT Times, July 2009

The protracted price negotiation for the Gorshkov aircraft carrier between India and Russia came in for sharp criticism today from the CAG, whose latest report rapped the Defence Ministry for the cost escalation of Rs 7,207 crore (USD 1.82 billion) in four years. The Comptroller and report for 2008, released in New Delhi, also questioned the prudence of the Ministry in buying the second-hand Russian warship, which now comes at “half its life-span and about “60 per cent more expensive” than a new aircraft carrier.

Cost escalation of Rs 7207 Crore in 4 years. The entire LCA has cost India 13000 Crore over 35 years. And the money for this was released in bits and pieces, with our worthies debating it and cursing the project everywhere.
And what do we get for this junk heap - oops "fine piece of engineering that is the Gorshkov"? Any local know how? Any sustainable industry? Any offsets? I guess not - these stupid things are only thought of by the blasted civilians.

Scorpene project, Aug 2009:

India will have to soon shell out well over Rs 2,000 Crore (US $ 409.25 Million)* more to French armament companies if it does not want its ongoing mammoth Rs 18,798 Crore (US $ 3.85 Billion)* project to construct 6 Scorpene submarines at Mazagon Docks Ltd (MDL) in Mumbai to come to a grinding halt.

How nice. 2000 crores is peanuts, right?

Thats two times the amount spent on the Akash project, from inception. Which money goes to over 100 industries in India.

Now the Akash has resulted in orders for Rs 12,500 crore (count them on the fingertips - because clearly this is no achievement):
http://www.indian-military.org/news-arc ... y-okd.html

Meanwhile, the great investment from the Scorpene, which should make India A-ok has resulted in this:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 152862.cms

How nice. We truly are learning from the Scorpene in that we have the next tranche of learned from stuff already.

Now lets get serious - has India placed a 50,000 crore order for any single project ever, domestically produced or developed? Heres another data point for comparison.

DRDO had a research budget of Rs 3000 Crore a year for the last decade. And items cleared for production are Rs 68,000 Crore. India is willing to spend Rs 50,000 Crore on a single program, for six submarines, that dwarf what we spent on R&D over an entire decade. And once the usual cost escalations start here, what then?

If one starts listing out the "systemic rot" (what a phrase) that has existed in procurements driven by those superior to the civilians, it would never end.

[darshhan]

Karan m ji , If you say that hiring right manpower and adequate funding is of secondary importance in R&D then there is no point in even discussing this matter.

Trust me If DRDO is performing well and meeting its objectives then I would be the happiest person.I will sincerely hope that you are correct when you say DRDO is on the right track.

By the way I hardly visit any other internet board.I do visit defence and strategic matter websites in order to gain a better understanding on defence issues but I don't recall myself visiting any other internet forums other than BR.But of course you should know better.

[Rahul M]

since you posted an 'analogy' let me put another equally simplistic one,
> 0800 hrs a customer goes to a restaurant and orders a plate of pasta, he is told it will take half an hour.
> 15 minutes after placing the order the customer cancels it and orders idli instead
> 15 minutes after that he cancels it again and orders roti sabji
> 5 minutes after that he cancels it yet again and orders paratha sabji
> 0835 hours the cook has meanwhile prepared both the dishes ordered originally and has to throw them away because 'customer is king' and he doesn't want them any more.
> 0845 hours customer specifies some additions to the paratha sabji
> 0855 hours cook is ready with paratha sabji as specified by the customer. customer doesn't accept it because the spoon wasn't laid out correctly.
> 0900 hours customer goes out and orders 10 hamburgers from a dirty unhygienic roadside shack. to show that prices are lower than the paratha sabji he orders them without the stuffing !
> customer gathers his friends and the roadside shack owner gathers his and they shout around town saying how the restaurant can't make paratha sabji in hour !
> next four days customer continues to say buying the burger buns(without the patty from a dirty store) was correct as it is more wholesome and hygienic and costs less.
> 5 days later, darshan comes and says it's all restaurant's fault because it couldn't make paratha sabji in an hour without knowing anything of the background.

oh well, if this is the state of informed public of this country I'm well and truly afraid of what the uninformed masses think.

[darshhan]

Karan m ji , If you sincerely want to check out where the world is going all you have to do is to open threads like "International aerospace discussion" and "International Military discussion".I am not going to paste all that content here.So please go ahead and check what is happening in the world.

And if that stuff is happening in our super-secret DRDO labs as well then I wouldn't be complaining.

[Gaur]

since you posted an 'analogy' let me put another equally simplistic one,
> 0800 hrs a customer goes to a restaurant and orders a plate of pasta, he is told it will take half an hour.
> 15 minutes after placing the order the customer cancels it and orders idli instead
> 15 minutes after that he cancels it again and orders roti sabji
> 5 minutes after that he cancels it yet again and orders paratha sabji
> 0835 hours the cook has meanwhile prepared both the dishes ordered originally and has to throw them away because 'customer is king' and he doesn't want them any more.
> 0845 hours customer specifies some additions to the paratha sabji
> 0855 hours cook is ready with paratha sabji as specified by the customer. customer doesn't accept it because the spoon wasn't laid out correctly.
> 0900 hours customer goes out and orders 10 hamburgers from a dirty unhygienic roadside shack. to show that prices are lower than the paratha sabji he orders them without the stuffing !
> customer gathers his friends and the roadside shack owner gathers his and they shout around town saying how the restaurant can't make paratha sabji in hour !
> next four days customer continues to say buying the burger buns(without the patty from a dirty store) was correct as it is more wholesome and hygienic and costs less.
> 5 days later, darshan comes and says it's all restaurant's fault because it couldn't make paratha sabji in an hour without knowing anything of the background.

oh well, if this is the state of informed public of this country I'm well and truly afraid of what the uninformed masses think.

RahulM,
I agree with you that Indian Defence PSUs deserves more credit than they get. I also agree that for each delay in nearly every major development program, the armed forces share a major responsibility. But you are painting the situation totally in black and white. While the achievements of Defence PSUs are laudable, they also shares a partial responsibility for various failures and delays. It is not all 100% "costumer fault" as you put it.

[Rahul M]

Gaur this is specifically wrt arjun project, which was the subject of darshan's analogy too. check the timeline you will be able to match most events.

but PSU NOT = DRDO !!!!!

[Gaur]

^^
I see. I thought you were you were referring to the LCA project.

[Karan M]

Karan m ji , If you say that hiring right manpower and adequate funding is of secondary importance in R&D then there is no point in even discussing this matter.

Darshhan, your ability to misconstrue something straightforward is most amazing. When you claim I said "hiring the right manpower and adequate funding is secondary" -you are misunderstanding what I said and twisting it out of whack

Where is this magical right manpower? How can you have right manpower in fields where India has never worked in? You need decades to develop the manpower, and design capability. Otherwise, go and do what others did and hire expats from Russia etc who come with their own lists of snake oil. Then they leave and you are no better off.

India is industrializing today. We are competing with countries that industrialized a century to half a century back. They fought global wars using their own equipment, led by soldiers who were writing on strategy at the turn of the century. This when our soldiers were unable to even command regiments and we didnt even have factories for churning out needles. Do you understand the scale of difference?

India had no Marshall plan, no post WW2 reconstruction and access to ww trade to create a new manufacturing sector. Nor did it have an aggressive GOI willing to fund military development.

Look at the big picture, not fixate on one thing alone. Via these projects we are attempting to overcome decades - these are high risk, high impact projects. The risk does not go away.

Trust me If DRDO is performing well and meeting its objectives then I would be the happiest person.I will sincerely hope that you are correct when you say DRDO is on the right track.

Darshhan ji, this is more rhetoric. What you should be doing is not asking me or hoping it is on the right track or not, you should be doing some basic legwork yourself. When you make claims like "fingertips", "individual not systemic" etc - they indicate you dont have the details down pat about the topic but you have strong opinions nonetheless! So what should one do.

By the way I hardly visit any other internet board.I do visit defence and strategic matter websites in order to gain a better understanding on defence issues but I don't recall myself visiting any other internet forums other than BR.But of course you should know better.

By board, I meant blogs and websites, and unfortunately they do publish a lot of this strategic versus non strategic rubbish and give tuppence worth of useless advice. Take for instance the statement about INSAS. So if DRDO doesnt do INSAS who will? Should OFB do this. Ok but OFB till the 90's had no mandate for expenditure on R&D. So - effectively, we would have had no battle rifle, and would have spent thousands of crores on license producing another imported rifle that we would have learnt nothing from.

Karan m ji , If you sincerely want to check out where the world is going all you have to do is to open threads like "International aerospace discussion" and "International Military discussion".I am not going to paste all that content here.So please go ahead and check what is happening in the world.

Again more rhetoric. What is the point of copy pasting marketing from different threads without even understanding the context? Talk capabilities man, talk about what India needs today and tomorrow and focus on that vis a vis what we have and what we are trying for. This fluff talk of where the world is going, is meaningless.

And if that stuff is happening in our super-secret DRDO labs as well then I wouldn't be complaining.

How do you know what is happening in any DRDO lab or not to complain about it? Again - go ahead and prove me wrong.

The point is simple, lay off the rhetoric. You do a serious topic serious disservice by coming up with these analogies and dont even contemplate what our priorities are, where we are in terms of capabilities and where we need to go. If you do, the rhetoric does not indicate it. It does not support a serious conversation and even posit an understanding of where India is today and what it needs to do to move ahead.

The silly ego driven "support organization", blasted civilians, stupid bureaucracy stuff is typical of these problems that delay progress. There is no gung ho, but only ego of teeth versus tail, or me versus you, and India's national objectives end up in the drink

Meanwhile, we continue to pay off extortionist demands like the Gorshkov, paying amounts that are unbelievable and which we would never spend on developing our own capabilities.

[Karan M]

I agree with you that Indian Defence PSUs deserves more credit than they get. I also agree that for each delay in nearly every major development program, the armed forces share a major responsibility. But you are painting the situation totally in black and white. While the achievements of Defence PSUs are laudable, they also shares a partial responsibility for various failures and delays. It is not all 100% "costumer fault" as you put it.

Absolutely, but try explaining that to folks who are still in the us versus them, blasted civilians need to be shown their place, mold! What talk of past troubles, the damage that will be done to future programs if such partisan attitudes are held, is incalculable. When AM Rajkumar was made the head of the LCA, Kalam told him his key challenge would be to bring everyone on board and ensure the bad blood between HAL, IAF & ADA would be mitigated. To his credit, he tried and understood Kalams point. Can you imagine what would have happened if he had told Kalam that "my organization is right, you people are worthless timeservers"? Unfortunately, this kind of behaviour was far too common & still exists. Not only is it execrable, its damaging to national objectives, irrespective of who behaves like this whether civilian or military.

[chackojoseph]

Many servicemen have had the very close opportunity to observe the scientists and the attitude that is brought to bear on their work.
There is no smoke without a fire. The rose tinted glasses have long since been removed and all projects are now being scrutinized dispassionately.

The early days of contempt and hostility of the scientists themselves towards the servicemen is sometimes unbelievable and it came much before the hostility from the forces who only reciprocated after much provocation. Just like very senior DRDO guys will not admit to this attitude publicly, very senior service officers have much to say about this.

The man who pays the piper is entitled to call the tune once in a while. To say that the forces should accept anything that come out of the lab in what ever form is a bit much. The services will support as long they see something worthwhile to support.

Same old Service man superior to Scientist. Service men saw this hence contempt etc etc. I hold the service men as partners and not auditors. Secondly Services have not paid for Arjun or LCA during development, they are paying now and getting their stuff.

Thirdly, the technology like LCA design is something that IAF was against. Today we have a range of technology with us.

Its now open to see how much services support what. Had services supported initially, we would have not been discussing this. IAF wallas running in corridors telling not to show support to LCA and Brigadiers and Lt Generals dressing down superiors for Arjun reports etc. These have been mentioned by service men and not lay reporter outside.

Services even blame DRDO for not making a nuclear submarine. Where as the nuclear propulsion has to be made by DAE. But, no its DRDO mistake onleeee.

[A Sharma]

Interview with Dr K. Shekar

[tejas]

Rs. 50,000 crore for six conventional subs? Are you kidding me? Makes me wonder how much of Arihant is actually made in India. Why no pics of Arihant other than the grainy poor resolution pics released? The Russians released high resolution pics of their newest Borei class SSBN with only the pumpjet propulsor covered. What is GOI hiding?

$2B a sub is rape pure and simple.

[A Sharma]

DRDO Newsletter Aug 2010

The Army has accorded Bulk Production Clearance (BPC) to the 40 mm Under Barrel Grenade Launcher (UBGL). UBGL is designed and developed by the Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE), Pune, and manufactured at Ordnance Factory, Trichy. ARDE developed this equipment as a result of the post Operation Vijay ‘Brainstorming session on Mountain warfare’ held in New Delhi. This equipment has successfully undergone rigorous user and troop trials at various locations, followed by Directorate General Quality Assurance (DGQA) evaluations to assess the life of UBGL, and BPC trials for consistency in performance prior to induction.
On induction of UBGL, the fire power of rifles 5.56 mm INSAS and AK-47 (Romania) has been enhanced, and the tactical gap of the maximum range of hand grenade and the minimum range ofmortar has been filled. The barrel of UBGL is made of aluminum alloy with micro arc oxidation coating process. The synergy between DRDO and DGOF is worth mentioning in this venture.

[tejas]

^^^^ There have been completely unsubstantiated rumors that Arihant was transferred to India by Russia.

[sunny y]

Interview with Dr K. Shekar

They are developing INSAS as cornershot gun
Found this on net


Honestly I am confused now with all these varying reports....

1) Why are they putting so much effort on INSAS when they are developing a new multi calibre assault rifle for F-INSAS ???

2) When the programme for AR is being run indigenously the why the Army is issuing RFP's for AR's ??

3) Sometime ago, Someone here I think Juggi mentioned that there is no such program for assault rifle currently going on but more than one source has mentioned that ARDE is heading the program to develop new AR. SO what actually is going on ??

Can someone knowledgeable here please clarify these doubts ??


Thanks

[ramana]

Chacko garu, any updates on LGB?

[chackojoseph]

DIHAR to run a pilot study for Leh Berry