Saar, Pakis don't need to smoke anything to think that wayputnanja wrote:dude, what are you smoking? did you even understand what rohitvats was talking about? what will India gain by joining with pakistan and china when both are trying their best to pull down India together?ajit_tr wrote:In that case India must join its forces with China and Pakistan and pull a fast one on Ombaba.
Pakistan's interior minister says Nato and Afghanistan are not doing enough to stop Taliban militants crossing the border from Afghanistan into Pakistan.
Rajesh, there has been two types of paranoia, one widespread and the other due to clever articulation by a few. That, progressive loss of power rankled Indian Muslim minds in the nineteenth century is putative. That, measures were taken to retrieve power unsuccessfully is also well known. However, one does not get the impression that there was widespread paranoia in India among the Mussalmans of those times. The Mussalman were resigned to the loss of power to a firangi nation and that too an overwhelming power with more modern weapons and tactics, about whom they could do nothing. Only two options were left, either jihad or hijrat. Neither was possible. As the British Crown took direct control of India towards the last quarter of the nineteenth century, the Muslim elites feared their real loss of power. The coveted government jobs which the Persian-speaking elite Muslims used to enjoy in the Mughal court were directly threatened because the educational institutions in Bombay, Madras and Calcutta were producing English-educated Hindus in large numbers. That was when the elite Muslims, who waited on Viceroy Minto in c. 1906, demanded that they be not treated inferior to the Hindus in any political setup that might evolve. This was a fear expressed by an articulative band of elite Muslims that was 'accepted' by the British. This was not the majoritarian view of the Muslims simply because what the elites were articulating was beyond the grasp of the most who were artisans, peasants, traders, dervishes and the like.RajeshA wrote:Well there was some paranoia in the Muslims when they started to voice the demand for a separate nation - they were paranoid about the Hindu domination.
SSridhar ji, it is a complex psychological phenomenon ... people deliberately whipping themselves up into a politically correct frenzy, even though they may, at some level, realize that the frenzy is founded on falsehood. They need to convince themselves because their world-view depends on it. There is no courage to question the world-view itself. Also, dreams of conquest, power and domination play their role.SSridhar wrote: Rajesh, there has been two types of paranoia, one widespread and the other due to clever articulation by a few.
No doubt, it is. But, the trigger is simple. Once triggered, the genie assumes different forms and needs to be constantly fed as otherwise it turns back on the master. Thus, anybody who initiates even a half-measure to normalize relations with India is looked at suspiciously. Ms. BB and even Zardari have been denounced as Indian agents. Hence the need for constant bida'a (innovation), conspiracy theories, stonewalling, chest-thumping, terrorism, skirmishes and even wars.Pranav wrote:. . . it is a complex psychological phenomenon ...
Gagan wrote:I have wondered why are pakistanis so strategically myopic? They only think of the immediate consequences, and immediate gratification, and absolutely no long term cost-benefit analysis ever occurs. This explains a lot of things - everything from Kargil to the lack of chess grandmasters from the land of the pure.
I will try a small perhaps coarse analogy:SSridhar wrote:Thus, while the stakeholders raised the India-centric paranoia among the masses, they used that for their own ends knowing perfectly well that with enormous patience and a usually benign approach, not much harm would come their way. At the same time, their benefactors would bestow Pakistan with disproportionate dividends.
. . . nomination papers filed with the Election Commission of Pakistan (ECP) state that he {Mian Nawaz Sharif} pays Rs 5,000 as annual income tax. A politician, who with his family owns a vast business empire that stretches from Punjab to Saudi Arabia and London, should pay a little more in annual income tax — no? Also, this raises another pertinent set of questions. With so little to show in income tax returns, what source(s) of income can Mian sahib show to justify or explain his current lifestyle? As a citizen and a registered voter, I would like to know how he can afford to live and manage an estate as big as his in Jati Umra (popularly, the Raiwind Farm House). That is some 2,000 acres of land that he needs to explain to his electorate.
A European ambassador, responded to my one-liner thus, "It shows in retrospect that you are a resilient nation and have learnt the art of surviving under clouds of uncertainty, all along packaging that product with a sizeable component of fear to get the best possible price from all those who gets petrified."
John McCreary
July 8, 2010 AFCEA/KGS Global Intelligence Update: 7/8/10
NightWatch
For the Night of 8 July 2010
India-Pakistan: Update. Next Thursday, the Foreign Minister of Pakistan and the Indian Minister of External Affairs will meet in Islamabad to resume their dialogue. A Pakistani spokesman said all issues are on the table, but then immediately removed one, namely the Indian concern about the Chinese plan to build a railroad through the Karakoram Mountains.
He also referred to Pakistan's concern for the human rights of people living in "Indian-occupied" Kashmir. However, the spokesman said Pakistan is approaching the meeting with an open mindset.
Pakistan: Security. Several Chinese engineers working in Baluchistan survived an attempt on their lives when unidentified assailants fired two rockets at a five -star hotel in the provincial town, in a pre-dawn attack on Wednesday. According to reports, the Chinese engineers left the hotel elevator minutes before the attack, which damaged a portion of the hotel building.
The Chinese engineers had arrived in Gwadar recently and were reportedly working on an oil refinery. Official sources believe that they were the targets of the attack. Security officials and paramilitary forces cordoned off the area after the attack and began investigations against unidentified assailants.
Comment: Baluch hostility to foreigners is less interesting than that the Chinese are building an oil refinery in Gwadar, in western Pakistan. That provides the motive for building a railroad link to Xinjiang, China, or maybe a pipeline, if that is feasible.
China is developing lines of communication through Pakistan and Burma to complement oil pipelines in central Asia that will ensure crude supplies to China in the event of a crisis in Northeast or Southeast Asia in which US Naval forces would disrupt the maritime supply route through the Straits of Malacca and Singapore.
Pakistan: Gratitude. The head of Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence, Lieutenant General Ahmed Shuja Pasha, said "foreign powers" were responsible for terrorism in his country, Samaa reported 8 July. During a briefing at a session of the National Security Committee, General Pasha said U.S. counterterrorism policy is being looked into and that changes will be made in accordance with Pakistan's national interest. According to Samaa, the foreign powers mentioned were specified as Western powers.
John McCreary's Comment:: The duplicitous, calculated comments of Pakistani politicians, such as Lieutenant General Pasha, expose the psychology of blame that infects Pakistani leaders. They do not accept responsibility for their own actions and constantly indulge in blaming those - in this case, the US -- who have provided enormous assistance to support elective, democratic government.
The US has persevered in this support despite overwhelming evidence that helping Pakistan is against the best interests of the US, Indian and Afghan governments. Even neutral international observers have concluded that Pakistani government organizations have never stopped supporting the Taliban.
Pakistani strategists are fond of accusing the US of being an inconstant ally of Pakistan against India. In the world-wide fight against terrorist groups, Pakistan is the inconstant ally. Its lack of gratitude is a world class disgrace. Pakistani political and military leaders should have the humility to appreciate they are not very clever in their initiatives to manipulate the US.
Security. Private security firms and Non-Government Organizations (NGOs) working in Pakistan have been found involved in assisting the Pakistani Taliban militants financially and providing them with the human resource. The militants arrested by the law enforcement agencies in different operations disclosed the names of private security firms and NGOs, who actually have been funding the militants and providing them with human resource for activities of terrorism in the country.
After the disclosure by the militants, the Interior Ministry asked the Government of Khyber Pukhtunkhwa to provide a detailed list of those private security firms and NGOs. The Interior Ministry and the Khyber Pukhtunkhwa government have ordered an investigation.
And how exactly will China ensure supplies via the Arabian sea and Bay of Bengal are not also disrupted?China is developing lines of communication through Pakistan and Burma to complement oil pipelines in central Asia that will ensure crude supplies to China in the event of a crisis in Northeast or Southeast Asia in which US Naval forces would disrupt the maritime supply route through the Straits of Malacca and Singapore.
I'd not extrapolate things to this extent.vic wrote:It seems that Pakistan is supporting the Haqqani network for a long time. It is also belief is lot of quarters that Haqqani Network “is AlQueda” itself. Won’t that mean that Pakistan has medium term plan to take over the Crown of Saudi Arabia under the façade of Osama Bin Laden’s name?
Sounds like a lifafa article sponsored by her first husband, Amjad Khan, who needs to distance himself from her.A_Gupta wrote:Some unspecified number of ISI people are used to expose Aafia Siddiqui. I wonder why just now.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 010_pg7_19
Note Professor’s Russell’s hypothesis and the argument he is constructing: that the Pakistani ruling elite was alienated from its own traditions and often contemptuous of them. If this was its attitude towards Urdu, imagine what it must have been towards the languages of the masses and what its perception must have been of the folk wisdom and traditions of illiterate people.
When a ruling elite is alienated from its own traditions it is all the more susceptible to the presumed superiority of outside ones. As Professor Russell observed, it was more English than the English. And similarly, it was more Arab than the Arabs.
And so when Saudi Islam came backed by large amounts of money there was no resistance, intellectual or otherwise. The game was over.
This is where Professor Russell’s chain of reasoning leads us. If you have a different explanation we can build a discussion around it.
What an excellent findA_Gupta wrote:A threesome worth reading - known facts, but well-presented. An explanation of the Islamic character of Pakistan and why it went the route it did. Uses the ideas of Prof. Ralph Russell.
http://thesouthasianidea.wordpress.com/ ... -analysis/
But such sophisticated concepts could not arouse the mass Muslim enthusiasm which the leadership needed if acceptance of its demands were to be enforced. With the illiterate and half-literate Muslim masses, what carried weight was precisely the ideas of the ‘most undesirable reactionary elements’—the prejudices which told them: ‘One Muslim is worth ten Hindus. We Muslims ruled over these people for centuries. We are a fine, manly people: the Hindus are slaves and cowards. Our type is the warrior, bold and generous: theirs is the banya, the cowardly, extortionate, hypocritical moneylender. Islam is a fine faith, the acme of all religious development: Hinduism is an inhuman and revolting system which sanctifies human degradation.’
This is totally different from what we see in Arab society and nations. They do not talk about their religion in this way.shiv wrote:
What an excellent find
But such sophisticated concepts could not arouse the mass Muslim enthusiasm which the leadership needed if acceptance of its demands were to be enforced. With the illiterate and half-literate Muslim masses, what carried weight was precisely the ideas of the ‘most undesirable reactionary elements’—the prejudices which told them: ‘One Muslim is worth ten Hindus. We Muslims ruled over these people for centuries. We are a fine, manly people: the Hindus are slaves and cowards. Our type is the warrior, bold and generous: theirs is the banya, the cowardly, extortionate, hypocritical moneylender. Islam is a fine faith, the acme of all religious development: Hinduism is an inhuman and revolting system which sanctifies human degradation.’
Good one! Thanks for the links Arunji.A_Gupta wrote:A threesome worth reading - known facts, but well-presented. An explanation of the Islamic character of Pakistan and why it went the route it did. Uses the ideas of Prof. Ralph Russell.
http://thesouthasianidea.wordpress.com/ ... -analysis/
http://thesouthasianidea.wordpress.com/ ... -analysis/
http://thesouthasianidea.wordpress.com/ ... ich-islam/
Note Professor’s Russell’s hypothesis and the argument he is constructing: that the Pakistani ruling elite was alienated from its own traditions and often contemptuous of them. If this was its attitude towards Urdu, imagine what it must have been towards the languages of the masses and what its perception must have been of the folk wisdom and traditions of illiterate people.
When a ruling elite is alienated from its own traditions it is all the more susceptible to the presumed superiority of outside ones. As Professor Russell observed, it was more English than the English. And similarly, it was more Arab than the Arabs.
And so when Saudi Islam came backed by large amounts of money there was no resistance, intellectual or otherwise. The game was over.
This is where Professor Russell’s chain of reasoning leads us. If you have a different explanation we can build a discussion around it.
Seeds of radicalization of Pakistan were sowed even before it was created. What a tragedy!It hardly needs to be said that if appeal to sentiments of this kind helped to mobilize the mass support without which Pakistan could not have been won, it also strengthened the religious (or pseudo-religious) fanaticism which Jinnah had opposed
Naipaul explains this in his Beyond Belief: Islamic Excursions Among the Converted PeoplesThis is totally different from what we see in Arab society and nations. They do not talk about their religion in this way.
Did Jinnah realize his mistake in lighting the fire of religious fanaticism and hence the "free to go to temples, church.." speech which is shown as an evidence to prove Jinnah was secular? May be he tried to douse that fire with this speech which of course we now know was a total failureIt hardly needs to be said that if appeal to sentiments of this kind helped to mobilize the mass support without which Pakistan could not have been won, it also strengthened the religious (or pseudo-religious) fanaticism which Jinnah had opposed.
When we read this analysis we can easily understand why Mr. Jinnah’s famous appeal on the founding of Pakistan was such an abject failure:
You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State.
This appeal failed not because Mr. Jinnah’s deputies were pygmies as is commonly argued. It failed because the emotional forces that had been let loose to achieve Pakistan were too powerful to be easily controlled even by a personality with the charisma of Mr. Jinnah.
I couldn't find any references that show Jinnah wanted a secular country in late 1930s and early 1940s.There is something more here. The ideology is design to create maximum damage to the existing social culture and to spread it widely in the region.Gerard wrote:Naipaul explains this in his Beyond Belief: Islamic Excursions Among the Converted PeoplesThis is totally different from what we see in Arab society and nations. They do not talk about their religion in this way.
Saleena Karim, here:partha wrote:I couldn't find any references that show Jinnah wanted a secular country in late 1930s and early 1940s.
In this Margaret Bourke-White excerpt (available from the first post on the TSP thread)In my book I showed that there are literally hundreds of references to Islamic terminology and principles in Mr. Jinnah’s speeches. Additionally, whilst he stressed the absolute equality of non-Muslim citizens in Pakistan, he never once used the word ‘secular’ to describe the country.
Later, reflecting on what I had seen, I decided that this desperation was due to causes far deeper than anxiety over Pakistan's territorial and economic difficulties. I think that the tortured appearance of Mr. Jinnah was an indication that, in these final months of his life, he was adding up his own balance sheet. Analytical, brilliant, and no bigot, he knew what he had done. Like Doctor Faustus, he had made a bargain from which he could never be free. During the heat of the struggle he had been willing to call on all the devilish forces of superstition, and now that his new nation had been achieved the bigots were in the position of authority. The leaders of orthodoxy and a few "old families" had the final word and, to perpetuate their power, were seeing to it that the people were held in the deadening grip of religious superstition.
So even as lakhs were being butchered, he is talking of minorities as the "dhimma"--"the protected". In other words, the minorities derive their rights and protection by courtesy of the majority, and not inherently as free, equal citizens that derive such rights and protections from a constituition and bill of rights. And they derive those protections "as long as they do something". The idea that one is to "be protected" immediately implies second-class citizenship.This day marks the end of a poignant phase in our national history and it should also be the beginning of a new and a noble era. Let us impress the minorities by word, deed and thought that as long as they fulfill their duties and obligations as loyal citizens of Pakistan, they have nothing to fear.
Freedom and power bring responsibility. The responsibility rests upon this Assembly, a sovereign body representing the sovereign people of India.
Nothing about "minorities"We have hard work ahead. There is no resting for any one of us till we redeem our pledge in full, till we make all the people of India what destiny intended them to be. We are citizens of a great country on the verge of bold advance, and we have to live up to that high standard. All of us, to whatever religion we may belong, are equally the children of India with equal rights, privileges and obligations. We cannot encourage communalism or narrow-mindedness, for no nation can be great whose people are narrow in thought or in action.
The J&K problem was created to raise the temperature and the make sure that PAK keeps the defiance and hold the major power at bay.Philip wrote:"F" mag says in an article that we are being made to "pick up the tab for the Angl-American war fatigue".Now we are being asked to "stabilise" Pak with mortal enemy China (pak's godfather supreme ),which is still hell bent upon destabilising India,severing Kashmir from us and along with China is playing a diabolic game of nuclear proliferataion and blackmail-the west that if it is not looked after,it might hand over N-weapons to the ungodly. There is absolutely NO way that those incharge of events in Pak can control the situ and make a lasting peace with India.
Car sales during the closing fiscal year (FY) 2009-10 have witnessed an increase of 49 percent to reach 123,957 units as against 82,844 units in FY2008-09, data released by Pakistan Automotive Manufacturers Association (PAMA) showed Monday.
....
During the FY10, sales of trucks remained up by 15 percent with units sold 3,620, sales of buses shrank by 4 percent, LCV, Vans & Jeeps witnessed an increase of 7 percent in sales with 16,496 units farm tractors sales rose by 18 percent to reach 71,512 units and motorcycles and three wheelers sales also witnessed improvement by 45 percent with units sold 737,759 units. To recall, FY09 had been a dismal year for local auto manufacturers as volumes fell by 47 percent to a 6-year low of 99,310 units.
Agricultural income?SSridhar wrote:Ask the right questions. . . nomination papers filed with the Election Commission of Pakistan (ECP) state that he {Mian Nawaz Sharif} pays Rs 5,000 as annual income tax. A politician, who with his family owns a vast business empire that stretches from Punjab to Saudi Arabia and London, should pay a little more in annual income tax — no? Also, this raises another pertinent set of questions. With so little to show in income tax returns, what source(s) of income can Mian sahib show to justify or explain his current lifestyle? As a citizen and a registered voter, I would like to know how he can afford to live and manage an estate as big as his in Jati Umra (popularly, the Raiwind Farm House). That is some 2,000 acres of land that he needs to explain to his electorate.
Both our judicial system and penal codes are based on the old British common law.chetak wrote:
The pakis have virtually the same laws as us , sometimes even the sections match that of the IPC etc.
We are not comparing with Bakistan. It is insult to BharatIndia sold more cars, buses, autos than Pakistan in the month of june only.
IN TOP GEAR
June'10 June'09 Growth (%)
Passenger vehicles 1,81,810 1,40,748 29.2
Commercial vehicles 52,211 36,222 44.1
Three-wheelers 38,868 33,741 15.0
Two-wheelers 9,33,101 7,06,934 32.0
Total 12,05,990 9,17,645 31