Tibet watch

[DavidD]

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/ ... icle/9187/

‘What does Tibet mean to me?’ mused a young British woman selling tat. ‘It means calm, peace, healing, stillness.’

Wow. The reality could not be more different. Stillness? The first sounds that greet me as I arrive in Lhasa are the incandescent honking of horns as car-drivers and motorcyclists (some with three to a bike) negotiate the roads. My own Tibetan driver is wearing a Playboy jacket. Maybe he bought it in the Playboy shop that I later see in the centre of Lhasa. It’s near the Tibet Steak House (‘juicy meat for you!’) and the Lhasa casino, in which Tibetan men in leather jackets pile coins into slot machines. On the streets young men in Kappa and Nike sweatshirts (fakes, I’m guessing), with hair by Topman, flirt with casually dressed young women, one of whom is sporting hotpants that even Kylie would consider too risqué.

Yet in central Lhasa, the only culture shock I experience is how similar Tibetans are to other Asians and to us Westerners, too. Tsering Shakya, a Tibetan historian who grew up in England, was once told by an academic colleague who saw him arrive at work by car: ‘I can never get used to the idea of a Tibetan driving a car.’ That academic should brace himself if he ever visits Lhasa: here they drive cars, drink beer, smoke, dance, wear leather, sit in parks, play cards, flirt, chat, talk rubbish, and do all the other things that the rest of us do. It is testament to the influence of the Western Tibetophilic lobby, all those actors, princes and middle-class healing nutjobs who have spread such a severely distorted image of Tibet as a land of childlike monks and nuns who smile softly all day long, that even I find myself surprised by the reality.

Ironically, it originates in large part with British imperialism. British forces invaded Tibet in 1904 and administered it until 1947. Their aim was to create what they self-consciously called a ‘buffer state’ to protect their immense interests in India, then run by the British Raj, from potential advances by Russia and China. Tibet was turned into a guard dog for Britain’s vast Indian Empire. And the British discovered that the idea of Tibet as a mystical, paranormal land - that is, not a normal state and certainly not a part of those other normal states of China or Russia - was a very useful propaganda tool. As Alex McKay, author of Tibet and the British Raj: The Frontier Cadre 1904 to 1947, points out: ‘The [British] found that the mystical image could serve British interests. The mystical image reinforced Tibet’s separate identity… furthering the interests of the British cadre.’ The British had a strict policy of only allowing in writers and explorers who were sympathetic to the mystical image of Tibet and who also would not criticise the severities of British rule or of Buddhist serfdom. And, says McKay, ‘in the absence of a viable alternative, the image of Tibet they constructed became the dominant historical image followed by Western academics’ (2).

[naren]

^^^ Good CPC propaganda article.

‘The [British] found that the mystical image could serve British interests. The mystical image reinforced Tibet’s separate identity

Tibet's unique history and identity is well established. Apart from that, the only people genetically capable of living in the heights are the Tibetans. The Han people are heavily subsidized to move there. The pregnant Han women regularly move down to lower altitude for delivery. Han, or anbody else for that matter, are incapable of living in that heights for a long time.

However, thats not the present debate is about. HHDL's position is "autonomy" for Tibet within PRC. So, I dont understand why CPC needs to keep harping on identity and history.

[DavidD]

Spiked hates the CCP, and I think you're missing the point anyway. The article is simply pointing out that the Tibetan people's psyche is the same as people from all over the world, in the sense that they love and hate the same thing and have similar propensity for modernization.

[svinayak]

Spiked hates the CCP, and I think you're missing the point anyway. The article is simply pointing out that the Tibetan people's psyche is the same as people from all over the world, in the sense that they love and hate the same thing and have similar propensity for modernization.

Then why did PRC accuse the Tibetans of feudalism and oppression and denigrate the Tibetan religion and culture.
Han Chinese still have problem with heart problem when they stay too long in the plateau and they have to get operation done in lower China to rectify their heart.

[naren]

DavidD,

ok, no problem with that. But you did quote,highlight parts which have nothing to do with the cultural aspect.

E.g:

"Their aim was to create what they self-consciously called a ‘buffer state’ to protect their immense interests in India, then run by the British Raj, from potential advances by Russia and China. Tibet was turned into a guard dog for Britain’s vast Indian Empire. "

[DavidD]

DavidD,

ok, no problem with that. But you did quote,highlight parts which have nothing to do with the cultural aspect.

E.g:

"Their aim was to create what they self-consciously called a ‘buffer state’ to protect their immense interests in India, then run by the British Raj, from potential advances by Russia and China. Tibet was turned into a guard dog for Britain’s vast Indian Empire. "

Well, I don't know how much time you've spent in the west, but over here Tibet is portrayed as some sort of surreal paradise where everyone is ultra-spiritual and above the temptations of modern and corporeal excesses. My quoted/highlighted parts were intended to show how that perception is not true and why that perception exists in the first place, with the latter explained in my 3rd quoted paragraph, a part of which you just re-quoted.

[naren]

Oh Tibet has become a land of milk and honey ever since CPC took over ! Come join me in singing praises for Chairman Mao. [/s]

[naren]

DavidD,

ok, no problem with that. But you did quote,highlight parts which have nothing to do with the cultural aspect.

E.g:

"Their aim was to create what they self-consciously called a ‘buffer state’ to protect their immense interests in India, then run by the British Raj, from potential advances by Russia and China. Tibet was turned into a guard dog for Britain’s vast Indian Empire. "

Well, I don't know how much time you've spent in the west, but over here Tibet is portrayed as some sort of surreal paradise where everyone is ultra-spiritual and above the temptations of modern and corporeal excesses. My quoted/highlighted parts were intended to show how that perception is not true and why that perception exists in the first place, with the latter explained in my 3rd quoted paragraph, a part of which you just re-quoted.

Thats the classic defense adopted by CPC - that the Western world is raising noise by using the Shangri-la image. Its the communist propagandists who think that the West is interested in Tibetan culture only because of Shangri-la.

Tibetan culture is being studied objectively & there are many centres which practice Tibetan Buddhism. For one, there is a dedicated Indo-Tibetan department in Columbia university who objectively study Tibetan culture. Heard Robert Thurman ?

[DavidD]

I have no idea what defenses are adopted by the CCP, but if it is then they're right. Sure there are scholars who actually study what Tibet and Tibetan culture is really like, but the average western person's perception of Tibet is that of the Shangri-La type.

Also, not sure of the point of your videos, I'm sure you can find scenes like that in just about every city in developing countries and even many cities in developed countries.

[harbans]

That HHDL wants an autonomous Tibet within China is just a step. The Chinese know that, so does HHDL. China has incorporated several provinces of Tibet much like Paki's are doing in the Northern Areas. So HHDL has little choice but in the first attempt try and at the minimum negotiate autonomy in some form within China. That specially when one's culture is being denuded with impunity. I doubt he wants to go down in history as not having tried to preserve Tibets unique identity in that way. He tried and it's failed. And if he does that the natural corollary to HHDL's stance from the GOI should have been taking Kailash and Mansarover. Thats where the Brahmaputra and other major river systems originate. There's nothing Buddhist or Han about a region thats the holiest spot for hundreds of millions of Shiv Bhakts in India. Kailash/ Mansarover is probably OK to be in Tibet if Tibet is independent. But it's certainly not so if Chinese claim Tibet. However i haven't met a Tibetan yet who's happy to be called Chinese. Certainly not in India. And yeah Tibetans in India like to party and live it up. Some of the night spots in Gurgaon and Delhi have Tibetans partying up all night long.

[naren]

I have no idea what defenses are adopted by the CCP, but if it is then they're right. Sure there are scholars who actually study what Tibet and Tibetan culture is really like, but the average western person's perception of Tibet is that of the Shangri-La type.

Kinda contradicts your earlier position, no ? ("I don't know how much time you've spent in the west, but over here Tibet is portrayed as some sort of surreal paradise where everyone is ultra-spiritual and above the temptations of modern and corporeal excesses")

Can you back your statement "average western person's perception of Tibet is that of the Shangri-La type" with facts pls ?

Also, not sure of the point of your videos, I'm sure you can find scenes like that in just about every city in developing countries and even many cities in developed countries.

Oh, all is well in Tibet onlee ? Then can you pls watch this documentary (5 parts) and explain to us ?

[DavidD]

Now, I'm just offering you my impressions based on my experiences living over a decade in both the U.S. and in China. I don't have any survey data(though there might be some online), but in general, the common Americans know jack shizzit about anything global. Most of them probably don't even know what the capital of India is. Their impression of just about anything oriental is based almost entirely on popular movies, songs, etc., which by and large portray Tibet in the mode of Shangri-La.

As for everything's well in Tibet, I never claimed that. I'm not sure what your claim is either. Are you saying that there's persecution and poverty in China or that they exist only in Tibet? Basically, is your criticism directed toward the CCP's governance of its people, or specifically its governance of Tibet?

[naren]

Some Shangri-la shown to the average man in CNN

March 20, 2008

Tibetans trek to India 1:52
CNN's Sara Sidner reports on the touching story of Tibetan Buddhists who seek religious freedom in India.

[DavidD]

I'm sure there are some Indians who've spent a good amount of time in the states, you can ask them for their opinion of the extent of the common Americans' geopolitical knowledge.

That CNN video had no footage of Tibet, btw.

[naren]

Now, I'm just offering you my impressions based on my experiences living over a decade in both the U.S. and in China. I don't have any survey data(though there might be some online), but in general, the common Americans know jack shizzit about anything global. Most of them probably don't even know what the capital of India is. Their impression of just about anything oriental is based almost entirely on popular movies, songs, etc., which by and large portray Tibet in the mode of Shangri-La.

As for everything's well in Tibet, I never claimed that. I'm not sure what your claim is either. Are you saying that there's persecution and poverty in China or that they exist only in Tibet? Basically, is your criticism directed toward the CCP's governance of its people, or specifically its governance of Tibet?

I'm glad that you mentioned it as your personal opinion. I agree with you in the sense that the common American is not well informed of worldly happenings.

I will not discuss my opinions on CCP's governance of Chinese people here. As far as Tibet is concerned, well there are lots. Basically, in line with the opinions expressed by the Tibetan exile community. Why dont you research and find out what they say ?

http://www.tibet.net/en/index.php

http://www.dalailama.com

[naren]

That CNN video had no footage of Tibet, btw.

1:09-1:19

[DavidD]

Here's some data regarding common Americans, especially their youths:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... raphy.html

Take Iraq, for example. Despite nearly constant news coverage since the war there began in 2003, 63 percent of Americans aged 18 to 24 failed to correctly locate the country on a map of the Middle East. Seventy percent could not find Iran or Israel.
Nine in ten couldn't find Afghanistan on a map of Asia.

And 54 percent were unaware that Sudan is a country in Africa.

Remember the December 2004 tsunami and the widespread images of devastation in Indonesia?

Three-quarters of respondents failed to find that country on a map. And three-quarters were unaware that a majority of Indonesia's population is Muslim, making it the largest Muslim country in the world.

Half could not find New York State on a map of the United States.

A third of the respondents could not find Louisiana, and 48 percent couldn't locate Mississippi on a map of the United States, even though Hurricane Katrina put these southeastern states in the spotlight in 2005.

Many young Americans also lack basic map-reading skills.

Told they could escape an approaching hurricane by evacuating to the northwest, only two-thirds could indicate which way northwest is on a map.

And what about India, which features prominently in the job-outsourcing debate? Forty-seven percent of young Americans were unable to locate where their jobs may go on a map of Asia.

I mean, do you REALLY expect people like that to know what Tibet is like?

[DavidD]

I'm glad that you mentioned it as your personal opinion. I agree with you in the sense that the common American is not well informed of worldly happenings.

I will not discuss my opinions on CCP's governance of Chinese people here. As far as Tibet is concerned, well there are lots. Basically, in line with the opinions expressed by the Tibetan exile community. Why dont you research and find out what they say ?

http://www.tibet.net/en/index.php

http://www.dalailama.com

Just like how you take the CCP's words with a grain of salt, you should take the exile community similarly. Obviously, every single one of them had reasons to leave Tibet, so their opinions would be overwhelmingly negative, but that doesn't mean they represent the opinions of all Tibetans.

Now, I'll agree with them and you that there definitely is more persecution by the CCP on Tibetans than on ethnic Hans, but the problem is more complicated than a racial/ethnic or even religious issue. The CCP is fine with religions, as long as there is zero political undertone. However, as you know, you can't talk about Tibetan religion without mentioning Dalai Lama, and the Dalai Lama has his own political agendas. So what's really happening is that there is political persecution in China as there has always been since 1949, that won't change any time soon. However, due to the complicated interconnectedness of religious, cultural, and political issues in Tibet, the political persecution is twisted to religious and even ethnic persecutions, which I disagree with.

[naren]

^^^ that is an opinion, unless backed by facts.

I'd suggest that you hear the exile side also before coming to conclusions. As for HHDL having "his own political agendas", he has openly said that the choice of continuation of HHDL institution rests with Tibetan people.

[harbans]

This is hijacking the thread. Hardly matters what Americans idealize Tibet as. What matters is what we think and Tibetans. Fact most Americans or Westerners don't realize is ALL Tibetan canons of thought originated from India and Indian scholars who carried them through Padmasambhava, Tilopa, Naropa. Tibets very deep cultural link with India will be ignored at it's own peril. HHDL knows that. WKK, liberals and strategically myopic Indian leaders of past genereations tuned to venerating 'Western' ideals and imbibing Victorian and Islamic morality as more has been India's bane. Tibet preserved much of what India was when Taxila and Nalanda were burnt down. HHDL has reiterated that time and again. Americans are just realizing there's something out there apart from monotheistic interpretations, but they are far off. Most Americans understand Yoga as some form of exercise..little realizing Yoga is the beginning of the process of Union..a very basic Indian religious practise. So much so, that slowly and unknowingly Americans are becoming more like us than we like them..or maybe we will meet somewhere in the middle. Google.." Americans are becoming HIndu's" Newsweek article by Lisa Miller. Core cultural practises are safeguarded..and i think there's been some sort of lobbying and keeping knowledge and practises in tact. I sometimes find it so crass that Han China occupies a land so sublime in thought and knowledge. And we have people advocating handing over HHDL to the China for more peaceful borders. Atleast we had one on this forum not too long ago..it's hardly wortrth bothering what Richard Gere or Americans think of Buddhism in Tibet. As they say..true knowledge is only for seekers. One has to seek it..it's not about proletyzation. It's about seeking. Indian's in the past realized that and moulded society so..when that floundered Tibet carried d preserved much of it till now. I only feel sorry very sorry for the Jairam Ramesh's and Chindu types..

[DavidD]

^^^ that is an opinion, unless backed by facts.

I'd suggest that you hear the exile side also before coming to conclusions. As for HHDL having "his own political agendas", he has openly said that the choice of continuation of HHDL institution rests with Tibetan people.

It's an opinion, but it's backed by the past actions of the CCP. Take the Falun Gong for example, the Chinese government fully supported the religious movement and even encouraged it until its members encircled ZhongNanHai(kind of the Chinese white house) in an organized and unregistered protest. After that, the sect was cracked down with extreme prejudice. There are many Christians and Muslims in China as well, but they are only allowed to worship in places registered with the government(they may worship privately, but not in large groups) so their teachings may be monitored and ensured not to contain any political message. Buddhist temples are all over the place in China too, and none has had any problem.

As for the Dalai Lama, he wants an autonomous Tibet, but the CCP doesn't want an autonomous anything. I have a feeling though that even if the Dalai Lama drops that claim, he still would not be welcomed back. The CCP desires power, and they're threatened by religious leaders of all types. Now, this is just my opinion, but I don't think the CCP likes any type of worshiping of someone who's still alive, even current CCP leaders(they've learned how destructive the idolatry of Mao was for China). Religions in and of itself is not threatening to them, but religious leaders can certainly be, at least in their viewpoint.

Note that I'm not condoning their actions, I'm just trying to explain why they act the way they do.

[Bade]

As for the Dalai Lama, he wants an autonomous Tibet, but the CCP doesn't want an autonomous anything. I have a feeling though that even if the Dalai Lama drops that claim, he still would not be welcomed back. The CCP desires power, and they're threatened by religious leaders of all types. Now, this is just my opinion, but I don't think the CCP likes any type of worshiping of someone who's still alive, even current CCP leaders(they've learned how destructive the idolatry of Mao was for China). Religions in and of itself is not threatening to them, but religious leaders can certainly be, at least in their viewpoint.

For a society as large as China this is the most troubling part for the rest of the world. That a billion people sort of agree to this viewpoint is the most dangerous threat to rest of us humans in what we believe in. CCP leaders do not want alternate gods to themselves. CCP is just a massive evil cult and there are enough followers within China. Hence, I see little hope for the Chinese people beyond meeting their minimum needs as dictated by the CCP gods.

[Karan Dixit]

Note that I'm not condoning their actions, I'm just trying to explain why they act the way they do.

Yes you are condoning their actions. It is like saying you understand why someone goes on to rape a woman and then say you do not condone rape.

[abhishek_sharma]

China hopes India will keep its word on Tibet-related issues

http://www.hindu.com/2010/07/14/stories ... 311400.htm

[DavidD]

Note that I'm not condoning their actions, I'm just trying to explain why they act the way they do.

Yes you are condoning their actions. It is like saying you understand why someone goes on to rape a woman and then say you do not condone rape.

That's one way to put it, but most things in the world are not so black and white. Say what if you killed the man who raped your daughter? Most people would understand, but not condone, your action.

[DavidD]

For a society as large as China this is the most troubling part for the rest of the world. That a billion people sort of agree to this viewpoint is the most dangerous threat to rest of us humans in what we believe in. CCP leaders do not want alternate gods to themselves. CCP is just a massive evil cult and there are enough followers within China. Hence, I see little hope for the Chinese people beyond meeting their minimum needs as dictated by the CCP gods.

That's an interesting way to put it, it's kind of like the CCP is some sort of a new age religion itself, isn't it?

[Bade]

I wouldn't call it "new age", it is pretty retrograde and harks back to perhaps pre-civilizational thinking, where absolute power and meek subjects make for a veneer of stability in society.

[DavidD]

I wouldn't call it "new age", it is pretty retrograde and harks back to perhaps pre-civilizational thinking, where absolute power and meek subjects make for a veneer of stability in society.

But has democracy brought about any more stability than the past? WWI? WWII? I don't know. Anyway, this is a pretty interesting concept, I'll need to think about it a bit more.

[rohitvats]

I wouldn't call it "new age", it is pretty retrograde and harks back to perhaps pre-civilizational thinking, where absolute power and meek subjects make for a veneer of stability in society.

But has democracy brought about any more stability than the past? WWI? WWII? I don't know. Anyway, this is a pretty interesting concept, I'll need to think about it a bit more.

So, you're comparing the comment on the internal system of a nation (China) and juxtapose the same with conflict between nations and somehow drag in the concept of democracy to show it in bad light? How quant...

[joshvajohn]

Tibetans' mother tongue faces tide of Chinese
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 06848.html

[DavidD]

So, you're comparing the comment on the internal system of a nation (China) and juxtapose the same with conflict between nations and somehow drag in the concept of democracy to show it in bad light? How quant...

Oh, you meant internal stability. In that case, there's no question that democracy is better. Empowering the people and letting everyone have a voice absolutely contributes to greater internal stability, nobody would debate that.

[Karan Dixit]

That's one way to put it, but most things in the world are not so black and white. Say what if you killed the man who raped your daughter? Most people would understand, but not condone, your action.

Your logic may be plausible to Chinese Communist Party but the rest of the world will not find it appealing. We are talking about a guy who raped your sister or your daughter or your mother. Most people will not understand those actions. But most people will understand if you kill the rapist. There is a difference. You are justifying the actions of a heinous regime - China. This is what most people, at least in civilized world will find appalling.

[DavidD]

That's one way to put it, but most things in the world are not so black and white. Say what if you killed the man who raped your daughter? Most people would understand, but not condone, your action.

Your logic may be plausible to Chinese Communist Party but the rest of the world will not find it appealing. We are talking about a guy who raped your sister or your daughter or your mother. Most people will not understand those actions. But most people will understand if you kill the rapist. There is a difference. You are justifying the actions of a heinous regime - China. This is what most people, at least in civilized world will find appalling.

Do you know what the rest of the world thinks about the caste system? Once you've immersed yourself into two very different cultures as I have, you'll realize that there are very few things in this world as black and white as rapist = bad.

[Karan Dixit]

Do you know what the rest of the world thinks about the caste system? Once you've immersed yourself into two very different cultures as I have, you'll realize that there are very few things in this world as black and white as rapist = bad.

First of all, I am glad that I have not immersed myself into cultures (Chinese and whatever else), which do not think rapist equals bad. That brings us to the point made earlier by Bade, I think. The real danger is not the CCP but the one billion Chinese people who are being brainwashed into believing that rape is not bad. This is truly frightening.

Caste system is a talking point. That is all it is. It is used by propagandist who have an ax to grind against India. No body else in the world thinks much of it.

[DavidD]

Maybe you misunderstood my post. I'm saying that rapist = bad, absolutely, but few things in life are as black and white as that. Exactly what are you equating to rape anyway? Have you had a loved one who's been raped? If you have, why don't you try to equate rape to whatever it is you're trying to equate it to, and see how she likes that?

[Karan Dixit]

Since we are asking questions, let me ask you this, do you have a family member who has been a rapist? Or, A CCP goon deployed in Tibet?

When you defend China's brutal and inhumane occupation of Tibet, you simply condone the rape, murder, cultural genocide and all that China has done to Tibet.

China filled with one billion people who think it is OK to rob and loot other countries is an emerging danger to the world. Therefore, a global alliance to check China must be created.

[DavidD]

That's a very good strategy, avoiding questions which you know the answers would make your argument seem foolish. The truth is that human rights in Tibet is the best in its history. That is a straight up fact. Unless, of course, you consider serfdom/slavery, which was practiced before the CCP took over Tibet, to be preferred over its current status. You know what a real rape, murder, cultural genocide and ACTUAL genocide is like? You want to know what a real brutal and inhumane occupation is like? Look no further than the European treatment of native Americans. So when are you going to start a global alliance to check the U.S.? When are you going to work for the Native Americans to get their land and culture back?

[vina]

That's a very good strategy, avoiding questions which you know the answers would make your argument seem foolish. The truth is that human rights in Tibet is the best in its history. That is a straight up fact. Unless, of course, you consider serfdom/slavery, which was practiced before the CCP took over Tibet, to be preferred over its current status.

Hmm. I didn't think that the Tibetans used artillery against the Potola palace and imprisoned monks and kind of things before 1958!.

All the same, what the got after the Chinese came is not a modern day democratic and liberal society!. What they got was moving from some feudal "serfdom" to a more brutal communist dictatorship (all in the name of the "serfs" of course, that is why Communism is so Kafkaesque). So, unless you buy the story of how serfs were "liberated" into "socialist labor" and the "ideal society" and all that commie propaganda, it sounds like so much B.S .

You know what a real rape, murder, cultural genocide and ACTUAL genocide is like? You want to know what a real brutal and inhumane occupation is like? Look no further than the European treatment of native Americans. So when are you going to start a global alliance to check the U.S.? When are you going to work for the Native Americans to get their land and culture back?

Err. Is European treatment of Native Americans the ideal that China should replicate today ?. Exterminate the Tibetans ? Rather than the 18th and 19th century Europe and America, how about emulating the mid 20th century and 21st century Europe and America, the one with genuine freedom, civil liberties, freedom of speech, freedom of conscience and religion ?

Did the Tibetans ever give a document saying that they want to be ruled by the Communist Party of China and sign away their freedoms, even assuming the old irredentist tripe of "Tibet was paying tribute to imperial china and hence is Chinese" kind of claims that the Chinese use. Okay. Even if they did pay tribute to Chinese emperors for 1000 years, they dont want to any more and want to live their own lives !. How about accepting that reality ?

[naren]

That's a very good strategy, avoiding questions which you know the answers would make your argument seem foolish. The truth is that human rights in Tibet is the best in its history. That is a straight up fact. Unless, of course, you consider serfdom/slavery, which was practiced before the CCP took over Tibet, to be preferred over its current status.

Mr. DavidD is hijacking the thread. First he comes up and says he grew up in a culture where Tibet is portrayed as Shangri-la and that he is enlightening us lesser mortals about Tibet onree. Now he talks about "serfdom/slavery" & human rights is best.

[Dilbu]

The truth is that human rights in Tibet is the best in its history.

This is what happens when you feed melamine contaminated milk to babies.