J & K news and discussion

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Muppalla
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Muppalla »

CRamS wrote:Muppalla:

The army chief is blowing hot air. Instead, he should concentrate on perfecting India's cold start or whatever strategy so that if the political leadership gives the green signal, he and the army deliver a telling blow to TSP; not the Kargil-type so called "victory" where we sacrifices our own troops, fight on our own side of the border, and earn kudos from the whites for "restraint" and go back full circle so the cycle repeats. What does he want the political leadership to do? Given in to the demands of the stone-pelting louts and their TSP puppet leadershship?

I do not read that way. He is very clear and blunt, and is not liking any dialouge with TSP. Even in JK he is very clear about cleanup of all locals before removing army from the JK. Follow him since he bacame chief and read all his views.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by A_Gupta »

http://www.international.to/index.php?o ... &Itemid=78
TIMES NOW has acquired transcripts of a conversation between Hurriyat Geelani faction leader and his paid activist. The conversation very clearly exposes how the hardline separatists are trying their best to instigate violence during the protests. The Hurriyat Geelani faction leader is heard instigating his activist to ensure that at least 10-15 people are martyred.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by anmol »

Losing Kashmir
By Robert Grenier

As we await what many hope will be the start, on July 15, of a renewed India-Pakistan peace process, or "Composite Dialogue" - derailed since the Mumbai attacks of November 2008 - I am reminded of two past conversations.

The first occurred in 1999.

In a meeting with a senior Pakistani official, the topic came around, as it usually did, to US pressure on Pakistan to crack down on militants crossing the Line of Control to engage in "terrorist acts" in Indian administered Kashmir.

Such infiltration, of course, was widely believed to be facilitated by Pakistan's infamous intelligence service, the ISI.

Dropping for a moment the usual protests of innocence, the official challenged me to distinguish between a "terrorist" and a "freedom fighter".

That was easy, I said: "The terrorist targets civilians."

The unspoken assumption in my response was that the US would look differently upon militants engaged in legitimate resistance to oppression, provided those militants restricted themselves to "legitimate" military or security related targets.

I knew, however, that this was not a distinction my government would willingly concede; and the Pakistani, not wishing to acknowledge the legitimacy of my distinction, did not press me on it.

Fast-forward then to another conversation, this time with a senior official in the US department of defence.

It was early 2002, just months after the attacks of 9/11.

The US had just launched its "war on terrorism," and this official, perfectly innocent of any South Asian background, was trying to get a full grasp of all the terrorism we had set out to eliminate.

"What about what's going in Kashmir?" he asked. "Isn't that terrorism?"

Nearly falling out of my chair, I strongly cautioned him against setting his sights on Kashmir in the way we were already focusing on al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

There was a long history behind the Kashmir dispute, I pointed out earnestly, and it would be a big mistake to focus myopically on the terrorism without trying to solve the dispute itself.

Focus on terrorism

Nonetheless, that is precisely what the US has done since 9/11: Focusing on the illegitimate means of redress - the terrorism - without considering either the grievances which produce it or promoting more legitimate means of redressing those grievances.

The US failure in this regard has been compounded by its encouragement of similar attitudes on the part of other nations, including India, which are seen as fellow victims of terrorism, and therefore natural allies in the "war on terror".

When Shah Mehmood Qureshi, the Pakistani foreign minister, meets with his Indian counterpart, S.M. Krishna, the threat of terrorism will hover over the proceedings in at least two respects.

The prospect of Indo-Pakistani rapprochement, finally gaining slight momentum after the debacle of Mumbai, will pose a highly attractive target for extremists who see peace between the two leading secular South Asian democracies as a threat. :rotfl:

Senior officials from both India and Pakistan have stressed the menace posed by extremist spoilers, and the corresponding need to make the peace process impervious to such threats.

Perhaps even more importantly, though, preoccupation with terrorism emanating from Pakistan has encouraged the Indian side to focus on the eradication of the terrorist threat as an effective precondition to serious talks.

Indeed, the concern with terrorism dominates Indian rhetoric about the upcoming talks, with Krishna having recently reiterated that "Mumbai is a deep scar; [Pakistan] must pursue those who were responsible for, conspired and perpetrated Mumbai".

While such concerns are certainly understandable, they nonetheless constitute an overwhelming distraction from the matter at hand.

Indeed, it is clear that the upcoming talks will essentially be "talks about talks".

Such concrete steps as might be taken will clearly fall into the category of "confidence-building measures," designed to create an environment of greater "trust".

The Pakistanis, too, are falling into the same trap, with Salman Bashir, the Pakistani foreign secretary, having recently said "I think what we're trying to do here is create the right environment".

We have seen all this before.

Such a process driven approach, if sustained, will doom the current effort to the fate suffered by all previous ones: Abject failure.

The status quo

The fundamental problem is that the status quo, with India in effective control of most of Jammu and Kashmir, favours India.

Thus, a sustained series of so-called confidence building measures which reduces the threat of hostilities has the effect of making the status quo more tolerable for India over time, thus creating a strong disincentive for India to engage in a real negotiation.

Correspondingly, in Pakistan, confidence building measures in the absence of progress on the core issues in dispute only make the prospect of Indian concessions on Kashmir all the more unlikely and, thus, a policy focused initially on creating trust all the less sustainable.

This is especially true where terrorism and militant groups are concerned.

In South Asia, as elsewhere, terrorism is the tool of the weak.

Without any other effective means of redressing Indian repression of Muslims in Indian administered Kashmir, a Pakistani focus on cracking down on so called "Kashmiri" militant groups based in Pakistan itself is unlikely to be accepted by the army, and only risks further undermining a Pakistani government already beset with domestic militant threats on all sides.

It is patently clear to everyone concerned, including the Pakistani army, that for Pakistan, Kashmir is lost, and will never be regained.

Thus, the challenge of an effective peace process in South Asia will be to cut through the chimera of "confidence building measures" which lead nowhere, and to frame an agreement which goes far enough in addressing the legitimate grievances of Kashmiris to make the loss of Kashmir acceptable to the majority of Pakistanis.

Once such an agreement in principle is reached, it will then be necessary for the Indian and Pakistani governments to collaborate closely in an effort to make the agreement, including some significant Indian concessions to Kashmiris' desire for greater autonomy, politically saleable on both sides.

In the same vein, it would also be necessary for India and Pakistan to collaborate in empowering the moderates in Kashmir itself who are capable of bringing about a political solution.

US sabotage

It is also patently clear that the Indians and Pakistanis are not capable of putting such a far-sighted political programme together on their own.

Rather than using the Indians' desire for great-power status as an effective diplomatic tool to encourage steps leading to a settlement of Kashmir, however, US policy is working assiduously to sabotage the process.

Firstly, by effectively encouraging India to follow the US lead in dealing with terrorism solely as an illegitimate political tool, which in fact it is, without simultaneously addressing the grievances which motivate it, the US is undermining its own interest in a Kashmir settlement.

Further, by dealing with the Kashmir dispute solely as a matter between India and Pakistan, and ignoring the plight of Kashmiris themselves, the US is delegitimising the only approach which would make Pakistani territorial concessions domestically acceptable.

The current unrest in Kashmir, which has led to the deaths of another 15 civilians in the past month, only serves as a reminder of the centrality of Kashmir and Kashmiris in the dispute - despite the state department's craven labelling of current Kashmiri violence and repression as "an internal Indian matter".

Make no mistake: Settlement of Kashmir is critical to broader regional stability.

Without a settlement of Kashmir, the Indo-Pakistani proxy battle which greatly complicates prospects for a negotiated settlement in Afghanistan is unlikely to abate.

Without a settlement of Kashmir, it will only be harder to socially isolate the extremists who pose an existential threat to Pakistan itself, and who could effectively undermine a nuclear armed state to say nothing of touching off a potentially nuclear armed confrontation between India and Pakistan.

Let us hope that the upcoming "talks about talks" serve to remind all interested parties of what is at stake, and seriously attempt to reach beyond the current, deeply flawed and unsustainable "Composite Dialogue".

Robert Grenier was the CIA's chief of station in Islamabad, Pakistan, from 1999 to 2002. He was also the director of the CIA's counter-terrorism centre.
http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2010 ... 64985.html
ramana
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ramana »

from above article
Without any other effective means of redressing Indian repression of Muslims in Indian administered Kashmir, a Pakistani focus on cracking down on so called "Kashmiri" militant groups based in Pakistan itself is unlikely to be accepted by the army, and only risks further undermining a Pakistani government already beset with domestic militant threats on all sides.


{So the advise of US expert is to mollify the army of a 'democratic' state?}

It is patently clear to everyone concerned, including the Pakistani army, that for Pakistan, Kashmir is lost, and will never be regained.


Then why does he want to defacto gift Kashmir to the defeated party? for thatis what he is suggesting. His buddy blackwill wants to gift Souther Afghanistan to the Pak supported Taliban with similar reasoning! The net result will be a defacto addtion to a failing TSP writ. }

Thus, the challenge of an effective peace process in South Asia will be to cut through the chimera of "confidence building measures" which lead nowhere, and to frame an agreement which goes far enough in addressing the legitimate grievances of Kashmiris to make the loss of Kashmir acceptable to the majority of Pakistanis.

First of all kashmir was not for TSP to lose. it neverr was part of their lnads. So wha ti sth elocu standi? Is it the Muslim majority bull s*it? If so how does that reconcile with modern state theory? Does the writer subscribe to Dar-ul-Islam construct. If so he should have recused himself from US govt. }

Once such an agreement in principle is reached, it will then be necessary for the Indian and Pakistani governments to collaborate closely in an effort to make the agreement, including some significant Indian concessions to Kashmiris' desire for greater autonomy, politically saleable on both sides.

In the same vein, it would also be necessary for India and Pakistan to collaborate in empowering the moderates in Kashmir itself who are capable of bringing about a political solution.


{Get this fact. In Kashmir there are Indians and not Kashmiris. And Indians are alreaady empowered.}
and

It is also patently clear that the Indians and Pakistanis are not capable of putting such a far-sighted political programme together on their own. :!:

Rather than using the Indians' desire for great-power status as an effective diplomatic tool to encourage steps leading to a settlement of Kashmir, however, US policy is working assiduously to sabotage the process. :?:

Firstly, by effectively encouraging India to follow the US lead in dealing with terrorism solely as an illegitimate political tool, which in fact it is, without simultaneously addressing the grievances which motivate it, the US is undermining its own interest in a Kashmir settlement. :?:

What interest is that?}

Further, by dealing with the Kashmir dispute solely as a matter between India and Pakistan, and ignoring the plight of Kashmiris themselves, the US is delegitimising the only approach which would make Pakistani territorial concessions domestically acceptable.

{How is the US a factor in a bilateral dispute? By this logic US should be involved in each and every dispute all over the planet and beyond! What is the legitimacy of the US invovlement?}


The current unrest in Kashmir, which has led to the deaths of another 15 civilians in the past month, only serves as a reminder of the centrality of Kashmir and Kashmiris in the dispute - despite the state department's craven labelling of current Kashmiri violence and repression as "an internal Indian matter".


{This guy is a Paki sympathiser and a closet Islamist!}

Make no mistake: Settlement of Kashmir is critical to broader regional stability.

Without a settlement of Kashmir, the Indo-Pakistani proxy battle which greatly complicates prospects for a negotiated settlement in Afghanistan is unlikely to abate.


{Nonsense. Kashmir was dispute between India and paksitna since 1947 before the US got invilved in Afghanistan. US troubels in Afghanistan are due to listening to idiots like this who cant face the reality that their best buddies in TSP are the ones undermining the US in Afghainstan. So they look for other causes ignoring hte one righ under their noses. it is the aid and support that the TSP gives the Taliban to attack US troops in Afghainstan while taking money from US is the root cause. The quandry is why is it so difficult for the US 'experts' who support the money to TSP to not see the root cause? Each $1b in money to TSP is 1 million jobs in US that are lost.}

Without a settlement of Kashmir, it will only be harder to socially isolate the extremists who pose an existential threat to Pakistan itself, and who could effectively undermine a nuclear armed state to say nothing of touching off a potentially nuclear armed confrontation between India and Pakistan.

{It is in TSP's interests to combat its existential threats. It it wont for what ever reasons it is not worthy of surviving as a modern Westphalian nation state. Not to mention its retetnion of nukes or other WMD. A nuke attack by TSP on India will happen only when these jokers wink and approve.}

Let us hope that the upcoming "talks about talks" serve to remind all interested parties of what is at stake, and seriously attempt to reach beyond the current, deeply flawed and unsustainable "Composite Dialogue".
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RamaY »

Things that caught my eye:
Distinguishing between my pain and your pain:

The unspoken assumption in my response was that the US would look differently upon militants engaged in legitimate resistance to oppression, provided those militants restricted themselves to "legitimate" military or security related targets.

"What about what's going in Kashmir?" he asked. "Isn't that terrorism?"

Nearly falling out of my chair, I strongly cautioned him against setting his sights on Kashmir in the way we were already focusing on al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

There was a long history behind the Kashmir dispute, I pointed out earnestly, and it would be a big mistake to focus myopically on the terrorism without trying to solve the dispute itself.


Equal=Equal between India and Pak
The prospect of Indo-Pakistani rapprochement, finally gaining slight momentum after the debacle of Mumbai, will pose a highly attractive target for extremists who see peace between the two leading secular South Asian democracies as a threat

But no Equal=Equal between terrorism against USA and India

Firstly, by effectively encouraging India to follow the US lead in dealing with terrorism solely as an illegitimate political tool, which in fact it is, without simultaneously addressing the grievances which motivate it, the US is undermining its own interest in a Kashmir settlement.


Only USA has the maturity to address such issues.

It is also patently clear that the Indians and Pakistanis are not capable of putting such a far-sighted political programme together on their own.



Repeat lies again and again


Without any other effective means of redressing Indian repression of Muslims in Indian administered Kashmir, a Pakistani focus on cracking down on so called "Kashmiri" militant groups based in Pakistan itself is unlikely to be accepted by the army, and only risks further undermining a Pakistani government already beset with domestic militant threats on all sides.

The current unrest in Kashmir, which has led to the deaths of another 15 civilians in the past month,
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RamaY »

Ramana garu

This dude is on to something. Looks like he suggesting creation of independent Pashtunistan; for which he thinks independent JK is a precondition.
"US is undermining its own interest in a Kashmir settlement."

"frame an agreement which goes far enough in addressing the legitimate grievances of Kashmiris to make the loss of Kashmir acceptable to the majority of Pakistanis."

"Further, by dealing with the Kashmir dispute solely as a matter between India and Pakistan, and ignoring the plight of Kashmiris themselves, the US is delegitimising the only approach which would make Pakistani territorial concessions domestically acceptable."

"including some significant Indian concessions to Kashmiris' desire for greater autonomy, politically saleable on both sides"

"Make no mistake: Settlement of Kashmir is critical to broader regional stability."

"Without a settlement of Kashmir, the Indo-Pakistani proxy battle which greatly complicates prospects for a negotiated settlement in Afghanistan is unlikely to abate."
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by CRamS »

My take on the dude. Lets look to capitalize on his key observation as a see eye yae operative and good buddy with the eye yes eye: TSP knows Kashmir is lost. Beginning with this, India should move ahead in talks with all concerned with additional bottom lines: Indian soverignty over valley will not be diluted, TSP must and irreversibly dismantly LET, 2) Cannot use Afganisthan as a colony for stratgeic dept aka mount terrorist attacks against India, and perhaps more (others can add to this). But then I wonder if there will be any TSP left :-).
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ramana »

RamaY, A Kashmir out of Indian control is US policy goal. And this guy wants India to give that even after India has won the hearts and minds of Kashmir except for those it allows to exist.
One thing I know from my long experience is one doesn't negotiate with the losing side. You crush them so they never come back.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Gus »

Robert Grenier was the CIA's chief of station in Islamabad, Pakistan,
the guy has gone native...much like the other station chief Milt Bearden.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RamaY »

ramana wrote:RamaY, A Kashmir out of Indian control is US policy goal. And this guy wants India to give that even after India has won the hearts and minds of Kashmir except for those it allows to exist.
One thing I know from my long experience is one doesn't negotiate with the losing side. You crush them so they never come back.
That I would agree Ramana garu.

India should push the envelope a bit IMO. They should start talking about POK+NA instead of JK.

Every time someone, especially from Pak, PRC, US/West says JK the the Indian side should say "we know, the people of POK+NA need some relief from this geo-political game. We must bring democracy, economic growth etc to them. We are contemplating of increasing :mrgreen: our political, economical, and military investments in this part of India".
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by anmol »

Wikipedia on Robert Grenier
Robert Grenier, a longtime CIA officer who served as the CIA's top counter-terrorism official for about a year, was fired from that position on 6 February 2006 by CIA director Porter Goss. In July 2006, Grenier joined Kroll, Inc., as Managing Director. On September 29, 2009 Grenier was appointed Chairman of ERG Partners, an independent financial and strategic advisory firm solely focused on the security and intelligence sectors.

In 2001, Grenier was the CIA station chief in Islamabad, Pakistan, where he helped plan covert operations in support of the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan. In the summer of 2002 he was promoted to the chief of the Iraq Issues Group, where he helped coordinate covert operations in support of the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

The London Sunday Times reported that Grenier lost his job with the CIA "because he opposed detaining Al-Qaeda suspects in secret prisons abroad, sending them to other countries for interrogation and using forms of torture such as 'water boarding'." He was also involved in CIA leak case and Libby trial
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote:RamaY, A Kashmir out of Indian control is US policy goal. And this guy wants India to give that even after India has won the hearts and minds of Kashmir except for those it allows to exist.
One thing I know from my long experience is one doesn't negotiate with the losing side. You crush them so they never come back.
It is about the region. They want to intervene in all the areas of the region including Kashmir.
Check the The Grand Chessboard.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Gerard »

The Americans have wanted an 'independent' proxy state from which they could dominate the subcontinent for many decades.
Adlai Stevenson (defeated 1952 and 1956 Democratic presidential candidate) spent 3 days having talks with Sheik Abdullah in 1953.
The last meeting lasted 7 hours. The two men were locked in a hotel room alone for this time.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by svinayak »

Gerard wrote:The Americans have wanted an 'independent' proxy state from which they could dominate the subcontinent for many decades.
Adlai Stevenson (defeated 1952 and 1956 Democratic presidential candidate) spent 3 days having talks with Sheik Abdullah in 1953.
The last meeting lasted 7 hours. The two men were locked in a hotel room alone for this time.
That was the period when the Americans were mad against Nehru. To get even with Nehru, US tried to woo Sheik Abdullah in 1953.
Correction

In May 1950, Liaquat visited the United States after being persuaded to snap ties with the Soviet Union and set the course of Pakistan's foreign policy towards closer ties with the West.[16]

Pakistan's foreign policy stance shifted significantly in 1953 when it accepted the United States offer of military and economic assistance in return for membership in an alliance system designed to contain international communism. When the administration of Dwight D. Eisenhower sought a series of alliances in the "Northern Tier"--Pakistan, Iran, and Turkey--and in East Asia, Pakistan became a candidate for membership in each. In 1954 Pakistan signed a Mutual Defense Agreement with the United States and became a member of the Southeast Asia Treaty Organization (SEATO). The following year, Pakistan joined Iran, Iraq, and Turkey in the Baghdad Pact, later converted into the Central Treaty Organization (CENTO) after Iraq's withdrawal in 1959. Pakistan also leased bases to the United States for intelligence-gathering and communications facilities.
Last edited by svinayak on 15 Jul 2010 02:46, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RamaY »

Perhaps they find TSP too large (population-wise) to be a manageable client state. That "tale of two client states" article explains the issues with a TSP-like client state.

JK is at the right location, is of right size, and can be economically sustainable.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ramana »

So the game is Blackwill wants to gift Southern Afghanistan to Taliban in otherwords give TSP defacto Pashtunistan as NWFP is already with them. And this guy wants to give Kashmir. So TSP is defacto winner of war on terror!
And both the advisers are cohorts during Bush WH!

And they write in Indian media selling this story.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RamaY »

2001:
USA started GWOT against AQ >> Taliban supported AQ so Taliban is USA's enemy No.2 after AQ.
TSPA is founder of Taliban >> But TSPA did U-turn and became a partner in GWOT
In return TSPA saved its assets in Kunduz air-lift.
Key Taliban and AQ assets moved to TSP.

2003-05
TSPA helped Taliban regrouping. AQ remained alive and active (madrid, UK bombings etc)
USA gives $Billions to TSPA to capture Taliban/AQ leadership

2007-09
Taliban extends to TSP-proper.
USA gives more $Billions to TSPA
TSPA allows drown attacks in TSP-proper

2010
RB says USA lost GWOT == Taliban/AQ won == TSPA/ISI won
USA is willing to give southern Afghanistan to the winner.
Taliban=TSPA says we want entire Taliban
That would mean USA's H&D loss (Entire Afghanistan > Part Afghanistan)
TSPA says if you want north-Afghanistan then give me equal amount somewhere else. How about JK?
USA wants India to give JK to Pakistan.

The question is why? Because it can ask for it. It is a different matter if India will/want-to pay JK.

Now Indian media is used by RB to push his agenda. Indian media is completely sold-out and presents RB article without comments.

What I would like to impress on Indian political/bureaucratic leadership is that USA is lost to TSPA which is beaten by us many times in 1948, 1965, 1971, 1999 and so on....
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Sanjay M »

RamaY wrote:Ramana garu

This dude is on to something. Looks like he suggesting creation of independent Pashtunistan; for which he thinks independent JK is a precondition.
"US is undermining its own interest in a Kashmir settlement."

"frame an agreement which goes far enough in addressing the legitimate grievances of Kashmiris to make the loss of Kashmir acceptable to the majority of Pakistanis."

"Further, by dealing with the Kashmir dispute solely as a matter between India and Pakistan, and ignoring the plight of Kashmiris themselves, the US is delegitimising the only approach which would make Pakistani territorial concessions domestically acceptable."

"including some significant Indian concessions to Kashmiris' desire for greater autonomy, politically saleable on both sides"

"Make no mistake: Settlement of Kashmir is critical to broader regional stability."

"Without a settlement of Kashmir, the Indo-Pakistani proxy battle which greatly complicates prospects for a negotiated settlement in Afghanistan is unlikely to abate."
I don't see him mentioning Pashtunistan anywhere. As I've already said, the Pashtun dispute pre-dates the creation of Pakistan, and thus even the Kashmir dispute. Therefore it's resolution of the Pashtun dispute which is the prerequisite for resolution of the Kashmir dispute - and not vice-versa.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by jagga »

Lamhaa banned in the Middle East
Lamhaa, which releases on Friday, July 16, has been banned in the Middle East.
Director Rahul Dholakia's film, which is based on the troubles in the Kashmir valley, will not be screened in Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates.
It will be interesting to know what made the middle east countries to ban this movie.Once the reason behind this is out, It might give us an indication (or may be something new) of the way middle east view's the kashmir.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Sudip »

Al-Qaeda branches out

Al-Qaeda announced the establishment of its Kashmir branch in a communiqué released to jihadist websites on 15 June. The statement took the form of an audio recording from Mustafa Abu al-Yazid, an Al-Qaeda leader killed in Pakistan in May


I dont have access to Jane's if someone cud post the whole article for us
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by vera_k »

Found this on Al Jazeera today.

Hindu minority homeless in Kashmir
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by svinayak »

http://www.hindustantimes.com/audio-new ... 71870.aspx

Pakistani mafia tightens hold on LoC trade
For the people of the Kashmir Valley locked as they are into an isolated region surrounded by high mountains, the opening of trade routes with Jammu and Kashmir in 2008 was a huge relief. But ever since, a cartel of Pakistani bureaucrats and traders has exploited the transit routes to meet their own ends.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by A_Gupta »

Watching Pakistan TV I get a gut impression that they think this time the troubles in Kashmir are different, and more deadly to India. Nothing anyone says, perhaps just my paranoid impression.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by CRamS »

A_Gupta wrote:Watching Pakistan TV I get a gut impression that they think this time the troubles in Kashmir are different, and more deadly to India. Nothing anyone says, perhaps just my paranoid impression.
Too terse, details please. Can you elaborate?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by A_Gupta »

CRamS wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:Watching Pakistan TV I get a gut impression that they think this time the troubles in Kashmir are different, and more deadly to India. Nothing anyone says, perhaps just my paranoid impression.
Too terse, details please. Can you elaborate?
True, let me gather more impressions. E.g., a interview over the phone with a Hurriyat leader and again nothing specific the Hurrirat said, but rather the sort of satisfaction and confidence I sensed that they've gotten a whole new generation of youth embroiled in this cycle of escalating violence and taking up the cause of azadi; and the sort of implication that this is something new in the sense of something with no precedent.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Pranav »

This AG Noorani is a Jihadist snake. Hear him froth with barely suppressed rage: http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... ullahs-770
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by CRamS »

Pranav wrote:This AG Noorani is a Jihadist snake. Hear him froth with barely suppressed rage: http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... ullahs-770
Absolutely. He masqerades his anti-India, Jihadist inner core through pedantic legalistic mumbu jumbo. He is also a RAPE, note how he quotes Churchhill, Lincoln etc.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Pranav »

x-post from book review thread:

KASHMIR CRISIS — Unholy Anglo-Pak Nexus: Saroja Sundararajan; Kalpaz Publications, C-30, Satyawati Nagar, New Delhi-110052. Rs. 850.

Kashmir and great power geopolitics
http://www.hindu.com/br/2010/06/29/stor ... 161500.htm

PRAVEEN SWAMI

The book argues that great power geopolitics incentivised and entrenched Pakistani intransigence over J&K


KASHMIR CRISIS — Unholy Anglo-Pak Nexus: Saroja Sundararajan; Kalpaz Publications, C-30, Satyawati Nagar, New Delhi-110052. Rs. 850.

“We have had a thousand years of hostility, you know,” Pakistan Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto told the British Broadcasting Corporation in a 1973 interview. “There has been no confrontation which,” he went on, “is as old as the confrontation between India and Pakistan, neither between Carthage and Rome, between Britain and France, nor between the Russians and Americans, nor between the Arabs and Israelis. Ours is the oldest confrontation.”

West on J&K

For decades, western scholarship on Jammu and Kashmir has — with some honourable exceptions — cast the conflict as the outcome of collisions involving Indian ultra-nationalism, Pakistani existential concerns, and a long-suppressed Kashmiri aspiration to self-determination (mostly seen as untainted by the chauvinist barbarities which scarred the rest of the subcontinent). The United Kingdom and the United States are represented as neutral bystanders, watching south Asia with a concerned but dispassionate eye.

Saroja Sundararajan adds to a growing corpus of Indian scholarship, which challenges the last of these positions — among them, D.N. Panigrahi's Jammu and Kashmir, the Cold War and the West and Chandrashekhar Dasgupta's magisterial work War and Diplomacy in Kashmir: 1947-48. Like Panigrahi and Dasgupta, Sundararajan contends that the intractability of the India-Pakistan conflict over Jammu and Kashmir is founded not on primordial hostility but on great power geopolitics.

Kashmir Crisis argues that great power geopolitics incentivised and entrenched Pakistani intransigence over J&K. She says the U.K. was, from the onset of the first India-Pakistan war of 1947-1948, determined to assist Pakistan.

Foreign Secretary Ernest Bevin warned his Prime Minister: “With the Palestine position so critical, we simply could not afford to put Pakistan against us and so have the whole of Islam against us.” British diplomat Philip Noel-Baker went one step further, telling Sheikh Mohammad Abdullah that “he was satisfied that Pakistan had no hand at all in the invasion of Kashmir.”

In 1951, the U.S. and the U.K. moved a resolution calling for, among other things, the deployment of foreign forces in J&K, and two years later the U.S. began to funnel aid into Pakistan. British geostrategic thinking had placed Pakistan, even before its realisation as a state, at the centre of its vision for south Asia.

From the memoirs of Francis Tucker, the last-General Officer-Commanding of the British Indian Eastern Command, we know that the imperial military was “for the introduction of a new Muslim power supported by the science of Britain.”

Fearing that Hinduism, “to a great extent one of superstition and formalism,” would be displaced by “a material philosophy such as Communism,” imperial strategists deemed it “very necessary to place Islam between Russian Communism and Hindustan.”

Weighty responsibility

More work is needed on the cultural genesis of some these ideas. There has long been a British tradition of finding meaning in distant nationalist projects. In his 1908 memoirs, the great imperialist adventurer Francis Younghusband observed: “a weighty responsibility lies also on the British government that it should guide their [the Kashmiris'] destinies aright.”

Last year, former British foreign secretary David Miliband became the latest in a long procession of U.K. politicians to voice this ‘weighty responsibility.' In an article authored on the eve of a visit to New Delhi, Miliband argued that a “resolution of the dispute over Kashmir would help deny extremists in the region one of their main calls to arms.”

A language that would have been wholly familiar to Bevan suffuses modern British commentary on J&K. In 2008, historian William Dalrymple asserted that the terrorists who attacked Mumbai in 2008 “were not poor, madrasah-educated Pakistanis from the villages, brainwashed by mullahs, but angry and well-educated, middle-class kids furious at the gross injustice they perceive being done to Muslims by Israel, the U.S., the U.K., and India in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan and Kashmir respectively.” But the fact is that all of the known attackers were poor, from village backgrounds and, if their own manifesto can be trusted, not especially concerned with these causes.

Sundararajan's work is, without doubt, partisan — as any work responding to a fashionable received wisdom is likely to be — but rich in empirical detail and persuasive in its argument. Given that Jammu and Kashmir has again become an element in global politics — this time, as a prize some in the west imagine will help them placate that great imaginary entity they call “the Muslim world” — her work deserves reading.
ramana
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ramana »

Very good book. Some one send her flowers from BR.
CRamS
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ramana wrote:Very good book. Some one send her flowers from BR.
RamanaGaru, is this available here in US? This should be part of my collection. I read the one from Chandrashekar Das Gupta.
Pranav
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Pranav »

Youths enforce shutdown, streets deserted again in Kashmir : http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 181383.cms

One does not understand why the hell these "youths" are not cooling their heels in jail. Is it that difficult to arrest people who are going around threatening shopkeepers?
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UK to play due role in resolution of Kashmir issue: Minister:DNA
Saturday, July 17, 2010 22:02

Britain will play its due role to ensure the early and peaceful resolution of the Kashmir problem between India and Pakistan, a British minister of Pakistani origin said today.

Baroness Sayeeda Warsi, a minister without portfolio in the new British government, made the remarks while addressing a reception hosted in her honour by the people of Mirpur in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir. Warsi's in-laws belong to Mirpur.

"Britain (will) play its due role to ensure the early resolution of the Kashmir issue," Warsi was quoted as saying by state-run APP news agency.

Warsi, also chairperson of the Conservative Party, said Britain is taking was taking "necessary effective steps in connection with the resolution of the Kashmir conflict". She called on India and Pakistan to "initiate effective steps for the early and peaceful resolution of Kashmir issue".

Abid Hussain, a leading Britain-based Kashmiri leader, chaired the ceremony in honour of Warsi. The event was also attended by British High Commissioner Adam Thomson and Kashmiri leaders like Sardar Attique Ahmed Khan and Chaudhry Muhammad Yasin of the Pakistan People's Party.

Warsi, who is on her first visit to Pakistan since she was appointed a cabinet minister, said the British government
will extend assistance for the progress of PoK through cooperation in education, health and social sectors.


In their speeches, top Kashmiri leaders called on Britain to exert "every possible pressure on India for the early settlement of the Kashmir dispute".

Speakers also called for making the Line of Control in Jammu and Kashmir irrelevant to ensure the free movement of people. They hoped that Warsi would continue raising the issue of the early settlement of the Kashmir issue in line with the aspirations of the people.
Ignore the Kashmir Hawks:Newsweek

Singh can make peace in the valley.

The Kashmir valley has been convulsed by a series of violent protests since June. Demon-strations that began over alleged extra-judicial killings by Indian security forces quickly spiraled out of control, claiming at least 15 civilian lives—with each new death leading to another round of protest marches and more deaths as paramilitary police met rock-hurling demonstrators with tear gas, rubber bullets, and live ammunition. To break the cycle, the Indian Army has been deployed on the streets of Srinagar, the summer capital of the state of Jammu and Kashmir, for the first time in 15 years. Officials imposed a 24-hour curfew in parts of the city and in several smaller towns where demonstrations took place, and banned public gatherings of more than four people.

The civil unrest threatens the gains that have been made in Kashmir. Over the last few years, the insurgency that sought to wrest Kashmir from Indian control appeared to be petering out. Pakistani-based terrorist groups such as Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) continued to send militants across the border to attack Indian troops in Kashmir, but increasingly they were killed before inflicting much damage. Fewer and fewer local Kashmiris joined the fight. The number of violent incidents dropped below 500 in 2009, the lowest level in the history of the conflict, according to Indian government statistics. Tourists returned to the region in record numbers. And in June, New Delhi resumed peace talks with Islamabad, raising hopes that their dispute over Kashmir might soon be settled.

For Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, the spate of violence presents a difficult challenge. He needs to resist hawks in his government, like his home minister, P. Chidambaram, who justify the heavy-handed tactics of the security forces by conflating the recent protests with the long-running insurgency and accusing, without much evidence, Pakistan and LeT of orchestrating the demonstrations. Instead, Singh should recognize this protest movement for what it is: an expression of pent-up anger and frustration by young Kashmiris who feel alienated from the rest of India. They are frustrated with the lack of economic opportunity in the state, and they are fed up with living like an occupied people: hundreds of thousands of Indian soldiers and police are stationed in Kashmir, their presence visible throughout the valley. These security forces have been granted legal immunity, a situation that has only invited abuses.

What’s more, Kashmiris fret they are being treated as pawns by both New Delhi and Islamabad, which have negotiated over Kashmir’s fate without any substantive input from the Kashmiris themselves. Young men participating in the demonstrations say they want an independent Kashmir. But this is largely because, in their experience, the Indian state has offered little but repression. It is up to New Delhi to change this perception.

With a few important gestures, Singh could defuse some of the anger on the streets and buy important support for a lasting peace with Pakistan. First, Singh should repeal the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, the law that gives Indian troops in Kashmir carte blanche to use deadly force and make warrantless arrests and searches. New Delhi should also move to prosecute members of the security forces implicated in extrajudicial killings. Singh has repeatedly promised “zero tolerance for human-rights abuses.” But that pledge has yet to be backed by concrete action.

Singh should also reach out again to the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, the umbrella group of Kashmiri separatists. The Hurriyat, bowing to its hardline faction, has rejected Singh’s previous offers of dialogue for two reasons: the continued extension of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act to Kashmir and the separatists’ insistence that they have a seat at the table in negotiations between New Delhi and Islamabad on Kashmir’s final status. Lifting the act, however, might provide enough political cover for moderates, such as Hurriyat leader Omar Farooq, to enter into talks.

In 2007 India and Pakistan were reportedly close to reaching a deal that would have frozen Kashmir’s borders but allowed people and goods to flow freely across the Kashmir Valley. The teetering political authority of then–Pakistani president Pervez Musharraf, followed by the Mumbai terrorist attacks in November 2008, scuttled that possibility. The two sides may now be groping their way back toward a resolution. But unless Singh addresses the concerns of disaffected Kashmiris about human rights, economic development, and political autonomy, he may find he has brokered a historic peace without bringing peace to the valley.

Kahn is a NEWSWEEK contributor based in New Delhi.
Prem
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Prem »

Wow, so many dung beetles coming out to teach Elephant how to walk, talk and sit. Funniest part is how they all apppeal to Singh and not the people of India or GOI etc. This coordinated coming out of closet by the queer Tittars ( Tittars are lofty and colorful but eat insects onlee and full of posion) was expected right after the stone throwing ceremomial beginning. Huurirats being the pet pigs of Uncle and advise to Singh to talk to them should leave no doubt that who is behind the current flare up. It time BR appeal to Singh to let all Indians to buy land and property in the Valley and settle down there. In democratic set , this is the best way to solve this issue. With 20k$ per person and 10billion initial investment and then 3B a year for next 10 years will quietly bring enlightened moderation to Sunni terrorist of the valley. And let each enterpreneur bring young family members to expand and spread the message of peace ,prosperity and pacification for posterity sake.
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Wow, this Kahn dude is speaking his master's voice. As always the bar and burden of proof is pretty high for India. I wonder if he heard the conversation between Paki puppets on the need for martyrs.

One thing that everybody almost universally talks about is "political autonomy". I wonder what this means. If this means no change in status quo, then how can it buy peace with TSP whose neurotic obsession is to grab Kashmir. So "political autonomy" means something else. You guessed it, it means that APHC will want TSP given a governing role in the valley under the guise of "joint management". And if MMS has give enough signals that those advocating this are confident that he will deliver, it is toubling to say the least.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

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The tactics and strategy has been learnt from the Intifada in Palestine. With recent well managed kick in the butt for the Israelis, this is what is now being felt as the right way forward for the Islamist takeover of all of J&K. Given an apparently divided GOI, they think that the work is now going to be easier.

I do not think that the way, NC has been pampered right from 1948, and all hat has been done to preserve the bases of Islamism in the valley, the GOI has much to do further than agree to NI type frameworks that would be pushed for by UK and Hillary now [behind walks the stick of the hubby who was instrumental in the NI one]. The personal vanities and weaknesses of both HC and our hon'bl PM can lend them to being the Sikhandi's behind whom the real players can hide.

I think the opposition should warn, right now, that any steps taken that gives any control over any part of the Valley - given by any representative or post-holder of the GOI will be up for re-evaluation in the future, and will only ensure violence from Indian side until all of J&K comes back to Indian control - just as Pak's violence on India is being rewarded by UK and USA. Any individual connected with any signing of agreement in this regard giving concessions to increased Paki control, will in the future be considered traitors to the nation, will be officially and Constitutionally listed so, and their actions subjected to charges of treason if alive and case reopened as accused for treason if dead.

Because we have no system of condemnation of past acts, individuals who think of themselves as emperors of India play with our lives in giving, always giving, to enemies whose greatest dance of triumph is not faced by these emperors - and who play magnanimous and ask victims to be magnanimous becuase they themselves do not suffer personal losses. JLN didnt, and if MMS gifts J&K, he is also not going to suffer any penalty for that. In fact, any member of the party behind such individuals should also be warned that he/she will be similarly treated in the future as traitor, if they do not leave that party or do not openly condemn that party and therefore will be seen to have supported such a gifting away.

Only a stark warning of future attribution and all that follows from such attribution of treason will make these guys stop and think.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Prem »

Army Chief has already stated that National security issues reign supreme when comes to territorial integrity.
Beside from where does MMS gonna bring badly needed 10 Million security personnel to protect and save the existence of any thing remotely islamic in India.MMS must know that he will end up gifting death sentence to many millions to make Valley Girls Happy to enjoy illict affairs with Uncle or His Children.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

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Prem wrote:Wow, so many dung beetles coming out to teach Elephant how to walk, talk and sit. Funniest part is how they all apppeal to Singh and not the people of India or GOI etc. This coordinated coming out of closet by the queer Tittars ( Tittars are lofty and colorful but eat insects onlee and full of posion) was expected right after the stone throwing ceremomial beginning. Huurirats being the pet pigs of Uncle and advise to Singh to talk to them should leave no doubt that who is behind the current flare up. It time BR appeal to Singh to let all Indians to buy land and property in the Valley and settle down there. In democratic set , this is the best way to solve this issue. With 20k$ per person and 10billion initial investment and then 3B a year for next 10 years will quietly bring enlightened moderation to Sunni terrorist of the valley. And let each enterpreneur bring young family members to expand and spread the message of peace ,prosperity and pacification for posterity sake.
There is no doubt coordination of the western and US based publication with the local event in J&K. They wanted to focus on the J&K in the talks between SMK and Pak officials. Indian delegation basically discussed only the terrorism as a main issue. It is obvious from the results of the Islamabad talks that Pakistan ,as of now is not prepared to give up terrorism as state policy.


The Paks are also in a different mood.
The reason for Pakistan’s provocative behaviour is to be traced to their perception of the situation in the Af-Pak area and validity of that perception.

One of the MP I met recently talked about 1 million retired fauji who are fit can settle in the J&K valley and stabilize the small area of 120 sq km
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RamaY »

^A-ji

Whoever does that is a Bharat Ratna
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by chaanakya »

Acharya wrote:
One of the MP I met recently talked about 1 million retired fauji who are fit can settle in the J&K valley and stabilize the small area of 120 sq km
This is something which needs to be accomplished asap. to keep The Valley in proper shape .
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Post by Pranav »

Outlook telephone poll in Srinagar: http://outlookindia.com/article.aspx?266275
What is the provocation for the current situation?
High-handedness of security forces 23.3%
Neglect of state 18.3%
General frustration 18.8%
Cry for azadi 30.8%
Don’t know 8.8%
So, even in Srinagar, which is supposedly a hotbed of separatist sentiment, the % of people who interpret the current trouble as being a "cry for azadi" is just 30%.

In the valley overall, it will be much lower. And Jammu, Ladakh are anyway strongly pro-India.

If the situation is properly handled there is nothing to worry.
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