MRCA News and Discussion

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Kanan »

Plz Read this Indranil bhai!
Driver wrote:
For bombing a city, choose the F-35 JSF.

For bombing a city, defending your airspace, escort transport planes etc., choose the EFA.

Really the EFA is better on all fronts except range which can be dealt with. The JSF does have stealth though but very little and there are nations that are well on their way to make stealth useless.
]
I realize this is a discussion board and therefore, obviously, topics are up for debate and as such, different views may be proffered. However, I have been reading the posts on this board for the past several weeks with a great deal of interest regarding the views expressed herein and few posts have struck me as completely off the mark as the one quoted above. Firstly, the claim that the F-35 (JSF) possesses "very little" in the way of stealth is an outlandish claim without any sort of evidence to back it up. Indeed, while it has been argued the F-35 will not achieve the same degree of all-angle stealth as the F-22, not even the F-35's most vehement detractors claim it is in possession of "very little" stealth. While the stealth properties of the F-22 and F-35 are distinguishable by a matter of degree, the qualitative difference between the F-35's stealth capabilities and those of the Typhoon is separated by several orders of magnitude. Secondly, Carl Sagan was fond of saying, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." The assertion made above, that "nations" are "well on their way" to making stealth "useless" is an extraordinary claim for which evidence is neither offered by the writer nor proven by another known, reliable source, let alone sources. All else is conjecture until proven otherwise.

Therefore, on the merits of its advantage conferred by stealth alone, in air combat the F-35 will see an enemy, and shoot that enemy, much earlier than will the Typhoon, even after the latter is given an updated AESA radar later in the century. In a hypothetical and unlikely head-to-head match-up, all else being equal (support elements, pilot skill, etc.), the Typhoon will be terminated more than likely before its pilot is even aware he or she is under attack. It is important to note that at this stage of its development, when the USAF is trying to secure funding for additional F-22s, the F-35's air-to-air capabilities, which are not significantly lesser than its larger cousin's, are being purposely down-played so as not to alert Congress that the F-35 will be significantly cheaper, but not significantly less capable, than the F-22. Indeed, it is very much like the F-15 vs. F-16 debate the USAF was engaged in during the 1970s and 80s. As has been widely acknowledged, the F-15 is not an inherently superior air-superiority fighter vis-a-vis the F-16. Had the USAF optimized the F-16 from early on for the air-superiority role, the USAF would have never needed to buy the F-15, period. See Pierre Sprey and John Boyd. An F-35, optimized for the air-to-air role, would not be inferior to the F-22. However, even when its air-to-air performance is compromised by its need to be a bomb truck, when the F-35 enters service it will be second only to the F-22 in the air-dominance mission. The evidence of this are all the countries--which must use the F-35 in both air-to-ground and air dominance roles--that are opting to wait several years for the arrival of the F-35 instead of procuring the Typhoon, despite the makers of the latter practically paying other nations to purchase their already obsolete design. Indeed, the capability gap between the F-35 and the Typhoon at all levels in favor of the former is greater yet than that between a late-model F-16 and an early-model Mig-23 (again, of course, in favor of the former).

Sadly for the UK, Spain, Germany, Italy, Saudi Arabia and whoever else has made the disastrous mistake to purchase this relic of a by-gone era, the Typhoon will soon be almost, but not quite, as irrelevant as the so-called Super Hornet. The F-35 will exceed the Typhoon at all levels, including maneuverability. Despite the latter's canards, I am astounded by how very little people on this board understand the very peculiar yet very unbeatable aerodynamic configuration common to both the F-22 and F-35. The enormous control surfaces, set far behind the axis of gravity in both as well as far behind the engine, provide a degree of maneuverability unmatched by any comers. Again, the USAF is being coy about the F-35 in this regard, but this aircraft will not be beaten by any aircraft now flying except for the F-22. Were the F-35 to be fitted with thrust-vectoring, however, it would be more maneuverable yet than the F-22.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by putnanja »

Kanan wrote:Plz Read this Indranil bhai!
er, can you please provide more information on who made that quote, a link, and why we should listen to that person?
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by rudradeep »

The above has been taken from the following forum: http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=PNph ... ic&p=66032

So dont know how reliable or true the discussion is....
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Kanan »

I would like to say that open source info F-35 is not very encouraging! But some sources have indicated that the aerodynamic performance of F-35 will be similar to F-16! (After all it has a great legacy to live up to!) If that's the case F-35 is certainly worth looking into! But since F-35 is not in the MMRCA race, I will post no more on F-35! Lest I be blamed of derailing this thread! :((
(why don't we take the F-22 and F-35 to PAK-FA thread?,if the mods permit)

I would prefer a western MRCA, as it will give India access to NATO standard weapons! It will superbly complement Su-30 MKIs once the ODL becomes operational!
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by putnanja »

We have a policy of not linking to other forums. And just posting what one postor says on a different forum doesn't make a good argument, unless that postor has some standing( serving/retd services officer, insider info from manufacturer etc).

And it is ridiculous to back up one's argument by quoting what some other random guy wrote on a different forum.

Come on guys, think before posting :roll:
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by putnanja »

Kanan wrote: (why don't we take the F-22 and F-35 to PAK-FA thread?,if the mods permit)
Why do we need to discuss them when IAF has shown no interest? Why do you want to pollute the PAK-FA thread too?
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Craig Alpert »

Sweden Will Buy New Gripen
One question for Saab’s Gripen Next Generation (NG) project has always been: Why should export customers buy an aircraft when its home customer has not committed to it? In discussions in June at Saab’s Linkoping, Sweden, headquarters, it became apparent that the NG is firmly in national defense plans, but a formal announcement is being delayed for domestic reasons.

Sweden has committed to using the Gripen beyond 2040,” says Hans Rosen, head of Gripen marketing and campaigns. “The question is when to acquire the Gripen NG, and how many.” The program calls for the new variant to enter Swedish service around 2018, but Sweden has told export customers—some of which expect deliveries in 2014—that it will adjust its schedule so Sweden deploys the NG before they do.

Rosen’s comments on the future of the Gripen in Sweden echoed remarks made by Defense Minister Sten Tolgfors at an air power conference at Malmen in June. Tolgfors said modernization of the Gripen force is proceeding according to plan with conversion of a final batch of 31 JAS 39A models to the 39C standard.

This leaves the air force with 100 fighters, fewer than at any time during or since the Cold War. Sweden will offset the reduction by maintaining the force at a high technical standard. The next step will see all JAS 39C/D fighters modernized to a common configuration known as Materiel Standard (MS) 20, already under contract. Also approved is the integration of a new radar-guided missile, the MBDA Meteor, regarded by Saab as a massive improvement in lethality over the AIM-120C advanced medium-range air-to-air missile.

The next configuration, MS 21, is being defined, but it is clear that MS 21 is in fact the NG, with the General Electric F414G engine; modified airframe; Selex Galileo Raven ES-05 active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radar; Skyward-G infrared search and track (IRST) system; and new core avionics. Selex’s Raven 1000P radar prototype is flying on the Gripen Demo and a ground rig is testing the innovative avionics in which flight-critical functions are partitioned so mission capabilities can be added more quickly through the fighter’s life.

The government is funding development of the definitive NG, which the independent defense procurement agency FMV calls JAS 39E/F. (A contract for the avionics system was issued in May.) The production version will have a larger wingspan and area, and the landing gear will be fully integrated with the wing (on the Demo, gear loads are taken through the wing and fuselage). Maximum takeoff weight has been increased (compared with earlier NG proposals) by 1,100 lb. to 36,400 lb.

The upgrade to the new airframe is logical for the Swedish air force. Putting the heavier AESA, plus Meteor and IRST on the C/D would reduce range and speed. However, the smaller fighter force means there are only three fighter bases, each covering a larger area. Since air defense is a primary mission, the air force wants longer reach in its fighters. JAS 39E/F provides that not only through greater range, but with supercruise—sustained Mach 1.2+ on military power with an air-to-air weapons load—that allows the fighter to reach a threat more quickly and with higher energy. Raven, Skyward-G and 4-8 Meteor air-to-air missiles also allow a threat to be identified and engaged at greater range.

Saab takes a long view of the Gripen program, Rosen says, and is confident of continued Swedish support and further export sales regardless of the outcome of competitions in Brazil, India and Switzerland. Although many regard Gripen as an outsider in the fighter business, it has won more export competitions than Rafale, Typhoon or Super Hornet.

The Demo prototype completed 152 flight-test sorties by mid-June, Rosen said, and a successful demonstration in India in May (the company previously performed demonstrations with the C/D version in India), including a landing and engine restart at Leh airfield in Kashmir, 10,800 ft. above sea level.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Kanan »

Sweden also needs tell us how much tech it can transfer, Given the fact that they have neither an own engine nor RADAR! I feel India would definitely want some of the RADAR tech. and engine tech; since India faces challenges in both these sector!
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

125 Boeing F-18s and 75 EF Typhoons. LCA gets the EF2000 (???) engine with transfer of core technologies. Russia gets FGFA. France gets the subs and a few other bits. AESA tech comes via Israel.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Dmurphy »

WOW, Rao saab's got eveything sorted out!
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

The GOI/IAF have spelt out their twin-track preferences very clearly (east and west) for "safety in numbers" policy,with huge orders for Russian Sukhois (incl.Russian radars),plus more with the 5th-gen fighter and upgrades to existing MIG-29s.That leaves us with Mirage-2000 upgrades,and other UGs for Jags,plus the LCA and MMRCA.The expectation is that a western nation/consortium will help us with TOT for the bells and whistles for both latter programmes.Our desi AESA radar seems to be some way off.Synergy in linking the MMRCA deal with other projects/acquisitions seems to be the method that some contestants are using.
1.Russia with Su-30s.MIG-29 upgrades and the PAK-FA 5th-gen fighter,plus MIG-35.
2.France with M-2000 UGs plus Rafale.
3.Eurofighter/EADS with the Typhoon and offer of LCA engines and consultancy,plus new RR engines for the Jag UG.
4.US with transports (C-17,C-130-Js,plus Honywell for Jag UG) and F-18/F-16.

The first three conetstants seem to have more synergy/commonality,as they already have their earlier aircraft/key components/weaponry in service (Jaguar,MIG series and Sukhois,M-2000).The Swedes are new to the nation and the US are trying to offer a comprehensive defence package that will include helos and artillery.Not that the others also have their varying wares in service with the IN and IA.This key factor s/c will have an impact upon the price and the one who can leverage this most will be hard to beat.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Anthony Hines »

The December time frame for shortlisting may be tied to the proposed visit of President Obama. There is every possibility of technology safeguards agreements being made / signed during his visit which in turn can change the composition of the finalists. I admit that this is kind of a circular inference : If the intention of the Indian Government was to procure non-US planes, there would be no reason to delay the announcement of the shortlist making the choice kind of evident.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Kanan »

The December time frame for shortlisting may be tied to the proposed visit of President Obama. There is every possibility of technology safeguards agreements being made / signed during his visit which in turn can change the composition of the finalists.
Seems kinda obvious! :|
If the Super Hornet wins, it will herald in a new era of Indo-US ties!
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Anthony Hines »

Kanan wrote:
The December time frame for shortlisting may be tied to the proposed visit of President Obama. There is every possibility of technology safeguards agreements being made / signed during his visit which in turn can change the composition of the finalists.
Seems kinda obvious! :|
If the Super Hornet wins, it will herald in a new era of Indo-US ties!
> It is not as obvious as all your posts. There is no such thing as a "new era", there is only permanent interests. How the deal is negotiated depends upon the strategic depth of thought put into this and other dealings by the Indian leadership. I would not for a second assume that it is a done deal simply because the variables that eventually determine the final outcomes are practically unknown to all except the few within the policy making circles.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by shukla »

India may ink MMRCA project of Rs 42K cr by mid-2011

TOI reports...
Even as the Americans, Europeans and Russians jostle to bag the "mother of all defence deals'', India too is now pressing the throttle to ensure the contract to acquire 126 new fighters under the Rs 42,000-crore medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) project is inked by mid-2011.

IAF, after all, wants to induct the first lot of these 126 fighters by 2014 to retain its combat edge. It is left with just 32 fighter squadrons (each has 12 to 18 jets) at present, down from the "sanctioned'' strength of 39.5 squadrons. This when Pakistan is getting new American F-16s and Chinese fighters, while China assiduously builds new airbases in Tibet and south China.

"We are ready with the flight evaluation trials (FET) report of the six foreign fighters in contention. Based on it, we are right now generating the staff evaluation report. Both will be submitted to defence ministry by this month-end,'' said IAF chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik, in an exclusive interview to TOI on Thursday.
"We definitely need the MMRCA, LCA (the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft) and FGFA (the fifth-generation fighter aircraft to be developed with Russia) without any delays to retain our combat edge,'' said ACM Naik. "We also have signed deals for 230 Sukhoi-30MKI fighters (over 110 have been inducted) with Russia. Another 42 Sukhois will be ordered soon. We want at least 42 fighter squadrons by 2022,'' he added.

All eyes, of course, are on the MMRCA project. "The trials have been conducted in an exemplary, fair and professional manner. We have to be very transparent because the deal is very large,'' said the IAF chief. "The amount of data collated in our voluminous and exhaustive reports is phenomenal. They, in fact, can serve as a template to evaluate aircraft by any country,'' he added.

As reported earlier, India is also likely to factor in its geo-strategic interests while deciding the MMRCA winner, with PM Manmohan Singh himself holding large defence deals must be leveraged to serve the country's larger diplomatic ends. This will be the first time that India will take into account "life-cycle costs'' -- the cost of operating the fighters over a 40-year period, with 6,000 hours of flying -- rather than just pitching for the lowest bidder in a defence contract. While 18 jets will be bought off-the-shelf, the rest will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.
Straight from the horses mouth.. Shortlist by month end.

Let the games begin....
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by shukla »

Anthony Hines wrote:The December time frame for shortlisting may be tied to the proposed visit of President Obama. There is every possibility of technology safeguards agreements being made / signed during his visit which in turn can change the composition of the finalists.
^^^^ To carry on from the point made, US national security adviser Gen James Jones spent the last two days here talking to the Indian leadership.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 173258.cms

Liberalizing export control regulations for India could definitely be the Game Changer..
Jones' visit here covered export controls, counter-terrorism and defence as substantive agenda items for the visit.
US national security adviser Gen James Jones met the PM and national security adviser Shivshankar Menon, air chief PV Naik and defence minister A K Antony, with whom the main areas of discussion were the nuclear liability Bill and the 126 MMRCA fighter aircraft tender. The US has been actively lobbying for its firms.
US under-secretary for commerce Eric Hirschorn has stayed back in the capital for further discussions on liberalising export control regulations for India. This is a big problem with the US, and India holds this as a benchmark for the strategic relationship.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by shukla »

^^ ADD ON

US national security adviser's visit fuels hope for 126 fighter aircraft deal
US national security adviser Gen James Jones in his first preparatory talks for US President Barack Obama's visit here in November spent some "quality time" with Air Chief Marshal P V Naik in a meeting that has rekindled interest in the humongous 126 fighter aircraft deal.

Jones met the PM and his Indian counterpart Shiv Shankar Menon on Wednesday. On Thursday, he is scheduled to meet home minister P Chidambaram, leader of the opposition in the Rajya Sabha Arun Jaitley, defence minister A K Antony and the Army and Navy chiefs. The US is very interested in the fighter deal, but the Air Force is reportedly still working on the report after the trials.

The visit -- slated for the first week of November -- is expected to sharpen the US and India's focus on each other, particularly since the bilateral tiesseem to have developed some wrinkles of late.
US pulling all stops...
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by kit »

shukla wrote:^^ ADD ON

US national security adviser's visit fuels hope for 126 fighter aircraft deal
US national security adviser Gen James Jones in his first preparatory talks for US President Barack Obama's visit here in November spent some "quality time" with Air Chief Marshal P V Naik in a meeting that has rekindled interest in the humongous 126 fighter aircraft deal.

Jones met the PM and his Indian counterpart Shiv Shankar Menon on Wednesday. On Thursday, he is scheduled to meet home minister P Chidambaram, leader of the opposition in the Rajya Sabha Arun Jaitley, defence minister A K Antony and the Army and Navy chiefs. The US is very interested in the fighter deal, but the Air Force is reportedly still working on the report after the trials.

The visit -- slated for the first week of November -- is expected to sharpen the US and India's focus on each other, particularly since the bilateral tiesseem to have developed some wrinkles of late.
US pulling all stops...

A closer 'Dhritharashtra' embrace of India., which will be one of the top 4 economic powers of the 21st century will definitely promote American interests, more economically and politically and less militarily.That unequal relationship will provide a junior partner that will provide a huge market for its products and militarily create a dependent nation.Question is how far India wants to go along. America can never be a strategic friend like Russia though, history has proved that time and again.The american relationship would be more like an affair, a marriage ie, a confluence of strategic interests will never happen.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by kit »

A timely reminder .,x posting

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3077778.stm

as to how India would likely have to depend on the winner of the MRCA finals .The victor would definitely gain a huge leverage militarily and politically not to mention economically too .This deal would seem to be a harbinger of future Indian strategy.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Kanan »

US national security adviser Gen James Jones in his first preparatory talks for US President Barack Obama's visit here in November spent some "quality time" with Air Chief Marshal P V Naik in a meeting that has rekindled interest in the humongous 126 fighter aircraft deal
.

Hmmm....... Looks like the U.S is finally making a strong effort!

If they fail this time, it could be Typhoon most probably !
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Neshant »

Canada is buying JSF ... without a bidding process ?


Canada to spend $16B on new generation of fighter jets

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/1007 ... t_fighters
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Neshant »

kit wrote:The victor would definitely gain a huge leverage militarily and politically not to mention economically too .This deal would seem to be a harbinger of future Indian strategy.
US is famous for short changing its 'allies' so there is nothing India will get from it.

it is just a handing over of a large some of money for a purchase and nothing more.

many promises of strategic alliance and export controls, restricted technology will be made.. but later it will be renegged upon.

Don't buy into the hype. Focus on which plane is best in terms of cost/performance ratio rather than false promises & gimmicks.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Kartik »

Eurofighter nations offered AESA by Euroradar consortium..Isn't Euroradar the ones in competition with Elta for the AESA for the Tejas Mk2 ?
DATE:15/07/10
SOURCE:Flight International
Eurofighter nations offered AESA radar enhancement
By Craig Hoyle

The Euroradar consortium has made an offer to provide an active electronically scanned array radar enhancement for Eurofighter partner nations Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK.
"We have tabled a proposal using risk-reduction work that has already been done," says Steve Mogford, chief executive of Selex Galileo, lead stakeholder in the Euroradar group. "We're just waiting for them to drop the flag." The move represents a standalone offer, and is not linked to the proposed Tranche 3B production phase of the Eurofighter programme, he adds.

The Euroradar consortium has proposed retaining as much "back-end" equipment from the Eurofighter's current mechanically scanned radar as possible as part of delivering the proposed E-Captor system.

Selex Galileo is already working towards integrating an AESA array with the Eurofighter for the UK under a technology demonstration programme worth around £20 million ($30 million). A modified aircraft is expected to fly in 2013 under the initiative.
The Eurofighter industrial consortium has cited the availability of an AESA array as a key addition if it is to secure additional export orders with the Typhoon. The type is currently being offered to meet requirements in nations including India, Japan, Oman and Switzerland.
link
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by ManuJ »

Because the US govt. is pitching its products so enthusiastically, it would be impolite to not listen to them! They would want to pitch the deal as a payback for the nuclear deal, whereas India would naturally be looking ahead.

It's looking more and more likely that a European contestant would win the MRCA contest. Europe is much more amenable to tech transfer with fewer restrictions. This deal means a lot to any European manufacturer and they would be way hungrier to seal this deal than their US counterparts. The current economic downturn in Europe is an extra incentive.

European technology is much, much more likely to fall into Pakistani and especially Chinese hands, if India doesn't grab it first, and India would want to do their best to preempt their rivals. A strategic partnership with Europe which gives India exclusive access to their technology, and gives them the Indian market, seems like a great win-win. Within Europe, France has shown itself to be extremely opportunistic in sealing deals with whoever comes up with the cash. There is a single person (French President) making the decisions, and with a change in presidency, India could easily fall out of favor. France has also recently been awarded the Scorpene deal. The EADS consortium comprises of four countries, and it would be extremely difficult for any one country to effect a change in strategy or policy. If there is current consensus for a strategic partnership with India, it is bound to hold. EADS also has a wide variety of technology to offer. Gripen unfortunately loses out politically; it also has an American engine.

US will never export defense tech to China, and will only offer obsolete tid-bits to Pakistan, so India doesn't have anything to worry on that front. The transport plane and helicopter deals with US seem to be its consolation prizes. Add in the artillery guns and other misc. stuff, and that should prevent them from getting too sullen.

If I had to put my money on any one contestant based on geopolitics, I would put it on Typhoon. If it makes the top-3 shortlist after the trials, it will be very hard to beat.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by sunny y »

US will never export defense tech to China, and will only offer obsolete tid-bits to Pakistan, so India doesn't have anything to worry on that front.
I wouldn't be that optimistic....While I agree with your first assumption, I somehow find it hard to believe that Pakistan will receive obsolete tid-bits from Uncle. Case in point the new more advanced F-16 Block 52....

Pakistan is their baby...They are not going to throw away that relationship so soon atleast till they don't solve the mess that they have created in Afghanistan...
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by rkhanna »

I wouldn't be that optimistic....While I agree with your first assumption, I somehow find it hard to believe that Pakistan will receive obsolete tid-bits from Uncle. Case in point the new more advanced F-16 Block 52....
Going by the Sufa,Blk60 and the Blk52+ the Vanilla blk 50s the paf is getting is a peg lower no? The question is not of the obsolence of the weapon system but the handicaps in place (if any).. (Like the Radar restrictions on the Saudi AWACs and F-15s)
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

rkhanna wrote:
I wouldn't be that optimistic....While I agree with your first assumption, I somehow find it hard to believe that Pakistan will receive obsolete tid-bits from Uncle. Case in point the new more advanced F-16 Block 52....
Going by the Sufa,Blk60 and the Blk52+ the Vanilla blk 50s the paf is getting is a peg lower no? The question is not of the obsolence of the weapon system but the handicaps in place (if any).. (Like the Radar restrictions on the Saudi AWACs and F-15s)
You have some gall to pi$$ on their dream
Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, the Pakistani air chief, welcomed the F-16s as “a dream that came true”
Zaid Hamid, a self-styled defense analyst known more for his conspiratorial and sensational commentaries regarding American influence in Pakistan, praised the delivery of the aircraft in a newsletter as “Alhamdulillah (thanks to Allah), another technological milestone achieved by Pakistan air force.”
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by naird »

^^ Keeping fighter capabilities aside. IMHO this comes to geo politicial considerations. If US assures India a permanent UN security council deal in exchange for this deal then i am pretty sure that teens will take away the coveted deal - for reasons apparent i am favouring the older one if this is the case.

I dont know how we can possibly afford EF or Rafale -- Both are just too expensive and have arrived too late on the world stage. Anyways Rafale is my favourite -- i dig french girls and planes.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Craig Alpert »

^^ I guess you didn't get the memo... India has a $279 Billion dollar in CASH RESERVES!!! I think $12 Billion should suffice to Bail out Europeans or France!!!!
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Muppalla »

My prediction is that we will get 125 from US unless some unpredictable and unforseen political changes/shifts happen in India.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by sawant »

I think we would be naive to think the US will never give Pakistan good toys... although they may fear tech falling into chinese hands, they have enough contacts and intel in the main armed forces hierarchy to let them know if anything like that happened... if they can know abt nukes, surely unkil can abt good ol teens... Besides unkil has the Raptor etc, it wont care if the chinese get hands on the teen techs...unkil might restrict the range etc of such toys, but it will be good enuf for the pukis to feel confident and may be a tad aggressive...
Austin
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Austin »

negi wrote:Kaptan saab imho 'standardization' is only a Jingo pipe dream , defense procurement is by and large influenced by political factors hence as long as we continue to import standardization will not be achieved , Amrika bahadur or great Bear manage to achieve that as their weapons procurement road map is drafted by the military well in advance.


Its not the political factor onlee the armed forces have not done any thing beyond lip service to achieve for standardisation when procuring big platrforms or sub systems , somehow they are obsessed with integrating things from as many source as possible ,defeating the whole purpose of fleet standardising , block upgrades and logistics. The initiative and impetus could come from service no point blaming politician here.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by shukla »

naird
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by naird »

Craig Alpert wrote:^^ I guess you didn't get the memo... India has a $279 Billion dollar in CASH RESERVES!!! I think $12 Billion should suffice to Bail out Europeans or France!!!!
12 Billion ??????

Craig - As per reports the current Brazilian deal for 36 Rafale aircraft is going to cost in the range of 8 - 10 Billion dollars. This includes Spares , infrastructure set up , possibly ToT , etc. What makes you think, it will only be 12 Billion dollars. Similarly Saudi EF for 36 aircrafts was costing i believe 7-8 Billion euro's - Saudis has a option to go for 36 more making it 72 aircrafts.

If we have 279 B doesnt mean that we should spend left and right --- We have Navy and Army besides Airforce. Further we also have developmental activities going on. I suggest you to read the article 'The defence deals that bankrupted Greece' -- a good read.

Let me know if i am missing anything.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by anirban_aim »

NRao wrote:125 Boeing F-18s and 75 EF Typhoons. LCA gets the EF2000 (???) engine with transfer of core technologies. Russia gets FGFA. France gets the subs and a few other bits. AESA tech comes via Israel.
Though I'm unsure of the exact nos. But I sure do support the inherent logic.

Another 2 months to check the head winds and 6 to actually see how the cookie crumbles.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by venkyt »

Why is Mig35 so risky bet. To me, a Known natasha devil is always better than unknown SAMantha angel. I do accept that RuAF not going to use Mig35 is a risk [what else??], but have we thought about work arounds. Sure, there must be some.

Alternatively, a split-deal between Rafale and EF could be sure shot advantageous in many aspects except cost [which I think we have in surplus, and there will room for negotiations as well] and also deepen the relations with 5 countries [2 among them belong to UNSC]. Downstream tech share/transfer for other projects like Subs, Flat tops, consultation for LCA and possibly AMCA, EJ2K, etc all from EU region is far more important than a chair in UNSC, Nuke deal,and other imaginary benefits of aligning with USA.

By inviting uncle sam, we just invited devil inside our home. But still, 10B$$$ for C17, C130J, Artillery pieces, and most likely possible sale of Strykers and Javelins and much more will provide 3 meal-day for Obama and rest of his countrymen for atleast next 1-2 years.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Kanan »

Keeping fighter capabilities aside. IMHO this comes to geo politicial considerations. If US assures India a permanent UN security council deal in exchange for this deal then i am pretty sure that teens will take away the coveted deal - for reasons apparent i am favouring the older one if this is the case.
Improbable! Though defence deals are quite lucrative, it is not BIG enough to put us in the driver's seat w.r.t the U.S.
http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... am/395232/

The U.S would want us to streamline our foreign policy with them! They need a RELIABLE and POWERFUL ally in the region which PAK is NOT! We always stood by Soviets during good ol' days! The U.S would want such a STRONG ally! If we do it the will have no problem ditching PAK! But we have divergent interests on some issues and the U>S interferes like HELL! That is the REAL PROBLEM!

My gut feeling says Typhoon!
>They have offered co-operation in most areas! (read LCA, AWACS)

>If India gets more than the mandatory 50% offsets and if India opts for the additional 74 (IMPROBABLE unless LCA hits some other roadblock); then the cost would come down!

>And if Germans and the English get pissed off with F-35, they might go for a 5th Gen Tranche of Typhoon with major redesign! IF it happens, India would be a sure shot partner given the costs of development! What do you guys think? :wink:
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Singha »

the prospect of getting obtaining missing pieces of knowledge in top tier tech from EU does appear better given their much smaller defence budgets and lack of public support for high defence spending - something which the US public for all their "bring the boys home" slogans is generally silent about.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

The best thing for India to do would be to go with two manufacturers. The two manufacturers being Boeing
for building strategic partnership and EF for technology transfer. In my opinion India should go for 250 aircraft, 125 from each manufacturer. With the duel supplier route India would have leverage in case of a squeeze play from any manufacturer.

I know money would be an issue; however present Indian economy can and will support the cost. With roughly 300 SU30 MKI’s, 250 MRCA, and about 250 Tejas aircraft, IAF would be in good position to castrate the northern neighbors and perform circumcision on the western neighbors without anesthesia. Due to India’s bad neighborhood, such a insurance policy is required.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by ManuJ »

It's as important for India to deny China (and Pakistan to a lesser degree) access to the latest and emerging technology, as it is for India to acquire it for herself. USA will never give away its latest tech to anybody, least to China, regardless of whether India buys from US or not. On the other hand, Europe is desperate for cash and customers. It would rather partner with India than China (for various reasons), but if India backs out, there's a very real chance that China will step in to fill the void. India needs to prevent that at all cost. The twist is that the US will also like to prevent China getting its hands on the latest defense tech, so it may not oppose the India-EADS partnership, if it(US) is properly compensated. That's where the latest flurry of govt.-to-govt. deals with US comes in. If you notice, all these deals are for items that either only US can offer (transport planes), or the alternatives are politically risky (artillery guns).

Also, the cold fact is that India is a relatively minor customer for the US, and because of that will always face technology denials from the US for at least their latest tech (e.g. AESA). And India will not be able to become their partner in tech development in any real sense for another few decades. Europe (EADS) is willing to offer the latest tech, and is also willing to partner with India (so is Russia for that matter, but India wants western technology as well).

India is acting very smartly, imho, treading a fine line in keeping all its partners happy while at the same time ensuring that it gets what it needs from where it makes most sense to take. And denying China (and Pakistan) the same level of access.
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