PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Jul 2010 20:11

While we are at it , something to chew on F-35

How? The Deadly Question for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 12 Jul 2010 05:04

arya · Post by **arya** » 13 Jul 2010 23:27

Latest News about PAK-FA :

The Russian Air Force will receive more than 60 fifth-generation fighters from 2015-16, the force commander said on Tuesday.

"The Air Force will start taking delivery [of fifth-generation fighters] in 2015-16. The preliminary number is over 60," Col. Gen. Alexander Zelin said.

He also said the first batch of new fighters would be provided with older, "non-fifth" generation engines.

In mid-June Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin observed the 16th test flight of a prototype fighter.

Deputy Defense Minister for Arms Procurement Vladimir Popovkin said the Defense Ministry would purchase the first 6 to 10 aircraft after 2012, based on the outcome of initial tests. He said the fighter will be superior to similar U.S. models.

The prime minister said 30 billion rubles (around $1 billion) had already been spent on the project and another 30 billion would be required to complete it, after which the engine, weaponry and other components would be upgraded.

He said the fighter would have a service life of 30-35 years, if modernization and upgrades are factored in, and would be around three times cheaper than its foreign analogs

Russia's only known fifth-generation project is Sukhoi's PAK FA and the current prototype is the T-50. It is designed to compete with the U.S. F-22 Raptor, so far the world's only fifth-generation fighter, and the F-35 Lightning II.

Russia has been developing its newest fighter since the 1990s. The country's top military officials have said the stealth fighter jet with a range of up to 5,500 km should enter service with the Air Force in 2015.

The PAK FA is to be armed with next-generation air-to-air, air-to-surface, and air-to-ship missiles, and has two 30-mm cannons.
http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20100713/159797767.html

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 14 Jul 2010 00:00

Why is there so much discussion on the F-35 for the IN? Has the plane even been offered to us? When we don't have any stealth fighters for the AF, why do we need stealth fighters for the IN, especially in a region where few navies are even fielding ACs..

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 14 Jul 2010 01:41

Why is that you keep asking questions but do not post anything of significance. There is no link in any post of yours.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Jul 2010 14:31

The Russians have planned well for the PAK-FA.First models will have older existing engines,which also serve on the Flankers (?),perfect the aerodynamics and as many features as possible,then incrementally improve later batches.A signal lesson that the LCA project has taken decades in learning.we are also going to get our first versions in about 5/6 years time,it will have a dramatic effect upon the IAF's capabilities,replacing the SU-30 line of production and also having an effect upon both the MMRCA and the LCA production lines,especially is the costs are kept within reasonable limits as advertised.Developing a naval version should also be a top priority for us as with larger future carriers planned,the aircraft in available in a naval variant will have trememdous impact in the IOR and Asia-Pacific theatres,as even the USN will be operating the JSF,reportedly inferior to the F-22,both of which are prohibitively expensive.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 16 Jul 2010 14:53

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10648250

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 16 Jul 2010 14:57

Samay wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10648250

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10654822

Observe at 1:49, when by press of a button the pilot could look through the other aircraft.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Jul 2010 17:07

F-35 "last Manned aircraft to be developed blablablabeah."

Balderdash.

vina · Post by **vina** » 16 Jul 2010 18:17

The Russians have planned well for the PAK-FA.First models will have older existing engines,which also serve on the Flankers (?),perfect the aerodynamics and as many features as possible,then incrementally improve later batches.A signal lesson that the LCA project has taken decades in learning

True. But there is a bigger lesson in this for the IAF and the Indian armed services in general as well.

There is no way in hell that the IAF or any service will accept anything that is short of "perfection" (as defined by them). They simply dont have the concept of block /incremental development /learning from experience curve.

Hmm. Russians are going to take a Pak-Fa with existing engines and not the 5th gen engines aye ?. Will the IAF ever do the same, except for a foreign maal.

Consider the case of the Mig-29A , which we were the first to receive outside the Soviet block. The reliability, downtime, maitenance, availability, despatch rates, everything was simply abysmal and it was probably down to just 15 to 20% of fleet available at any given time.

We were one of the guinea pigs. The the Russians used our service experience to improve their RD-33 engines (which until the recently remained abysmal in terms of t:w ratio, sfc , technology and other parameters). In fact, the Malyasians agreed to even evaluate the Mig29, solely because the IAF agreed to provide service support. It is only as recently as the RD-33-3 (2007 or so) version that they atleast have stuff like on-condition maintenance, FADEC, single crystal blades, improved thrust of 1000 lbs over the baseline and engine life comparable to a western equivalent (F404) baseline version mind you, not the F414 or Ej200 and other more evolved ones.

Think of it. A full 20 years since that engine actually entered service !. Will the IAF fly the LCA with the same kind of downtimes, maintenance, reliability and thrust that the RD-33 had circa 1984 when it entered service in India? The Kaveri as it exists is much better than the 1984 version of RD-33. Will the IAF accept a kaveri with say a shortfall of 3 KN less than designed thrust and fly it until it is "perfected" (just like the PAK-FA is going to flying in Russian service with a less than perfect engine?)

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 16 Jul 2010 18:41

^^^Will the IAF of today buy an aircraft with these shortcomings? Or, are we making virtue out of necessity of an Air Force which was happy to get it's hand on anything which the GOI and foreign vendor agreed to provide (and we could afford)?

And what of IAF agreeing for induction of LCA with F-404 which still does not meet it's requirement but is an interim solution? And expects the Mk II to be compliant with it's requirement?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Jul 2010 20:30

The time is not too far when we will need a separate FGFA thread. And, I am inclined to believe the FGFA will have a lot more non-Russian components than we envision. IMHO, Russia has a huge amount of brains - no two ways about it, but has NO funds to bring a product to full maturation. And, IF they obtain funds they will miss on the time-line. Said this before, IF India is not careful the IAF will fall behind when in actuality they have a small window within which they can get a decent amount of technologies (does NOT mean that Indian tech agencies will be self sufficient).

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 16 Jul 2010 20:59

vina wrote:
The Russians have planned well for the PAK-FA.First models will have older existing engines,which also serve on the Flankers (?),perfect the aerodynamics and as many features as possible,then incrementally improve later batches.A signal lesson that the LCA project has taken decades in learning
Will the IAF fly the LCA with the same kind of downtimes, maintenance, reliability and thrust that the RD-33 had circa 1984 when it entered service in India? The Kaveri as it exists is much better than the 1984 version of RD-33.

Though I am completely with you on your observation on attitudes towards Desi/phoren maal, I feel we shouldn't nail the IAF for the Kaveri.

I don't want to go into the rhetoric ... IAF is not the only one to blame ... they also understand building aircraft engines is close to rocket-science ... but they were promised the moon in a decade, 2 decades back .....

But with Kaveri it is not even at the stage of "up time", "maintenance cost", etc etc. It has not passed basic tests. One can fly underpowered, but one can't fly a plane which starts throwing blades (till recently). Which AF in the world will risk its pilots like that. And if some AF does, would we respect that AF?

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 16 Jul 2010 21:14

indranilroy wrote: Though I am completely with you on your observation on attitudes towards Desi/phoren maal, I feel we shouldn't nail the IAF for the Kaveri.

I don't want to go into the rhetoric ... IAF is not the only one to blame ... they also understand building aircraft engines is close to rocket-science ... but they were promised the moon in a decade, 2 decades back .....

But with Kaveri it is not even at the stage of "up time", "maintenance cost", etc etc. It has not passed basic tests. One can fly underpowered, but one can't fly a plane which starts throwing blades (till recently). Which AF in the world will risk its pilots like that. And if some AF does, would we respect that AF?

Hmmm....Agreed! Indian Technology needs some more time to mature!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Jul 2010 21:28

The issues seems to be:
a) Will the IAF give locals the same slack they tend to give outsiders, and
b) Will outsiders agree that they have "used" India (for their benefits too)

Indian technologies can mature ONLY if Indian services provide them with the playing grounds to mature. This is a normal process.

vina · Post by **vina** » 16 Jul 2010 22:33

And what of IAF agreeing for induction of LCA with F-404 which still does not meet it's requirement but is an interim solution? And expects the Mk II to be compliant with it's requirement

Okay, let us for a moment assume that there is another plane called the Gripe C&D versions on the offer, which have exactly same engine (a lower thrust version), general layout version and everything except two canards as the LCA .

Now will the IAF buy the Gripen C&D , even though the Gripen too just like the LCA falls short of IAF's hot and high performance requirements in India (basically the ASRs drafted for the LCA), just like the current LCA version ? You bet , they would have snapped 'em up like hot cakes if that was available I think.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Jul 2010 23:03

vina,

One exception though. The outsiders are in a better position to resolve issues much faster. IFthe Russians took 10 years to solve a problem, the Indian counterpart should take a lot longer - just because of delta in R&D and experience.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Jul 2010 09:24

NRao wrote:vina,

One exception though. The outsiders are in a better position to resolve issues much faster. IFthe Russians took 10 years to solve a problem, the Indian counterpart should take a lot longer - just because of delta in R&D and experience.

Not necessarily. In fact there are some problems they may not be in a position to solve and will not take responsibility. Recall late Wingco Suresh's article of the Jaguars failed hydraulic system "A tale of two hydraulics systems"

HAL sorted that out, the brits implemented it on their Jaguars

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... aguar.html

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 17 Jul 2010 15:42

shiv wrote:
NRao wrote:vina,

One exception though. The outsiders are in a better position to resolve issues much faster. IFthe Russians took 10 years to solve a problem, the Indian counterpart should take a lot longer - just because of delta in R&D and experience.
Not necessarily. In fact there are some problems they may not be in a position to solve and will not take responsibility. Recall late Wingco Suresh's article of the Jaguars failed hydraulic system "A tale of two hydraulics systems"

HAL sorted that out, the brits implemented it on their Jaguars

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... aguar.html

One bonus nugget from Wing commander's article, which should be kept in mind for MRCA and all other deals:

Since the modifications were developed in India and adapted by BAe, it was decided to examine the possibility of claiming "Intellectual Property Rights" from them. Some interesting features of the Jaguar contract and licence agreement signed in 1978 by Government of India with the BAe emerged. The gist without actual legal terminology is given below: Operator (India) may introduce modifications on their own aircraft, the details of which are to be communicated to BAe. If we (BAe) have any technical observations, we will inform you within two months. In any case, the introduction of modification is at your own risk and cost.

If we (BAe) find that the modification is useful and should be introduced on the entire Jaguar fleet world over, we shall do so. However, this does not attract any "Intellectual Property Rights" or Commercial considerations.

It is amazing that the contract signed even before the aircraft were inducted had incorporated clauses as above. We learnt that a team of experts specialised in drawing up contracts draft these documents and bring to them the desired thoroughness.

vina · Post by **vina** » 17 Jul 2010 15:48

It is amazing that the contract signed even before the aircraft were inducted had incorporated clauses as above. We learnt that a team of experts specialised in drawing up contracts draft these documents and bring to them the desired thoroughness.

Err, what is amazing ? The fact that there are lawyers specializing in something called Intellectual Property Law and that before any contract is signed in any company, the document has to be vetted by the company's legal dept which has many lawyers on the payroll and for important ones the company's General Counsel has to okay it ?. All part of daily business .

The point that the sarkari PSU/govt companies /DRDO doesnt have such a setup doesnt mean that a global major such as BEA (or its predecessor) or even a joint venture such as SEPECAT will not have such folks going over the contracts before signing them!

As a matter of fact, before I went up to senior management to get any NDA signed for anything, even for a small IP /asset sale (leave alone a NDA in M&A discussions), in every employer of mine, I had to get the legal team's approval , negotiate on what is acceptable/not acceptable with the counterparties, get the final version acceptable to everyone approved by the legal/general counsel before signing anything!.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Jul 2010 16:03

shiv wrote:
NRao wrote:vina,

One exception though. The outsiders are in a better position to resolve issues much faster. IFthe Russians took 10 years to solve a problem, the Indian counterpart should take a lot longer - just because of delta in R&D and experience.
Not necessarily. In fact there are some problems they may not be in a position to solve and will not take responsibility. Recall late Wingco Suresh's article of the Jaguars failed hydraulic system "A tale of two hydraulics systems"

HAL sorted that out, the brits implemented it on their Jaguars

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... aguar.html

Falls under:

NRao wrote: The issues seems to be:
a) Will the IAF give locals the same slack they tend to give outsiders, and
b) Will outsiders agree that they have "used" India (for their benefits too)

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Jul 2010 16:43

NRao wrote: but has NO funds to bring a product to full maturation

Why do you say that Russia has NO funds while we DO , Is our economy in a far better shape then theirs ? Or our funding for Defence R&D and Defence Spending is better ? What is the bench mark ?

Even if they spend say x amount on any military product they probably make 3x amount in their export , while our export revenues for military product is negligible while our imports for the same is sky high.

Our current forex reserve as of today ( though its not a benchmark to gauge the two economies ) stands at $279.422bn link and theirs at $467 bln link

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 17 Jul 2010 19:40

Our current forex reserve as of today ( though its not a benchmark to gauge the two economies ) stands at $279.422bn link and theirs at $467 bln link

>Good point! Russia is NOT a pauper like PAK, but DICTATES terms to E.U; thanx to Oil! Still the scope of the project, is much better with joint funding!

>We may get F-35, which will (or is supposed to) beat all current 4th Gen fighters but what about a 5th Gen fighter (like J-xx)? As Gaur pointed out in MRCA thread, dogfight becomes inevitable and F-35 will be beaten!

>India has limited options for 5th Gen fighters! The Russians know it and hence are not ready to sign any deal on tech. transfer or joint production!

>Besides a clause with India might cripple their export options, thanx to U.S pressure!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Jul 2010 22:31

Austin wrote:
NRao wrote: but has NO funds to bring a product to full maturation
Why do you say that Russia has NO funds while we DO , Is our economy in a far better shape then theirs ? Or our funding for Defence R&D and Defence Spending is better ? What is the bench mark ?

Even if they spend say x amount on any military product they probably make 3x amount in their export , while our export revenues for military product is negligible while our imports for the same is sky high.

Our current forex reserve as of today ( though its not a benchmark to gauge the two economies ) stands at $279.422bn link and theirs at $467 bln link

And .........................................................the US has 124bn and Pakistan has 16bn!!!!!!!!!!!

The issue of maturation is related to if there is a need for spending (in which case a country will find the funds - even if they have to eat grass). Russia, in the past decade or two, has had no NEED to build anything new. They really have had no real threats. When they have had (as in the case of missile defense) they have found the funds to make things happen.

The PAK-FA itself is a great example. Sukhoi has funded the build out of the PAK-FA. As far as I know the PAK-FA has not real "5th gen" engine. The last time I read the Sukhoi chief stated that they need funds + 10-12 years to build an engine for the PAK-FA.

In spite of brain power - which I am dead sure is declining as time goes by, it has to - they have no need to bring to market any new system/s. So, a PAK-FA will reach some level of maturation, but not to the extent it can or even it should.

While WRT India there is a NEED. IF Russia cannot provide India will HAVE to go elsewhere - no option. Thus India will find the funds to make it happen (and she has). IF the frustration (Kargil syndrome) - within India - rises bet India will develop her own, she has to - because of a NEED.

WRT Russia selling and making money .............. well ............... that window has closed. Russia has no real need to build out and her best source for fundS - China - has swindled Russia (what else is new - this was predicted about 10 years ago). Outside of India there is no other nation that can provide the funds needed to bring a system to market. Absolutely none. And even WRT the Indian window it can only get smaller (from a Russian PoV). Indian capabilities to buy and/or make it in-house will/can ONLY get better.

I do not know (as I post) how Indian economy compares to that of the Russians, BUT what I do know is that Indian economy is expected to be the 2nd largest by about 2040. (Just read that Chinese economy is expected to cool of in the next 1-2 decades, which is a wee bit of a surprise.) So, yes, I expect the Indian eco to be better than that of Russia.

Now, coming to the PAK-FA and FGFA, as I have posted before, I do not think this will be a happy marriage. India, rightly, expects a lot out of this and reading between the lines - for whatever reason (not blaming anyone) - I do NOT think India is getting what India expected (why I am not sure).

IMHO the crown jewel of the IAF will bee the MCA (or whatever the latest acronym is). Once the LCA settles (which I feel it will), then the MCA will solidify and will rise to the top.

However, to round out this post, I would be very interested in the Russian AESA - whatever that gizmo with some 1056/1500/whatever T/R modules. Would like to track it and see where that goes. As I see the situation the US leads by eons, the EADS solution seems to be next and then the Russian. ????????????? I am inclined to believe it is funds that is preventing the Russians from making faster progress.

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 17 Jul 2010 22:51

However, to round out this post, I would be very interested in the Russian AESA - whatever that gizmo with some 1056/1500/whatever T/R modules. Would like to track it and see where that goes. As I see the situation the US leads by eons, the EADS solution seems to be next and then the Russian. ????????????? I am inclined to believe it is funds that is preventing the Russians from making faster progress.

Sirji, Where is Israel? They got the tech from the U.S and have developed it superbly! You are right, the U.S tops! They (Israel)have operational AESA including Phalcon (an AWACS at that)! I would count Israel second ahead of EADS and Russia!

And yes, every nation will develop something out of need! But the problem is, we ( or anybody) need atleast 10 yrs to develop something spectacular like a 5th gen fighter! We are at the weakest squadron strength now and hence we needed to start yesterday !

PAK-FA,as you have said, would not be like Raptor at first! In your own words, the U.S are eons ahead! But like the Flankers matured to be the deadliest, a JV of India-Russia can make it superb by,say, 2020! Now, if only the Russians would see the point!

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 19 Jul 2010 10:41

T-50 completes early flight and bench tests

Sukhoi has completed its preliminary flight and bench trials program for the T-50 PAK-FA fighter. Three airframes were built for the initial campaign, comprising one static aircraft (T-50-0), one flying prototype (T-50-1) and an avionics testbed (T-50-2). A display flight by T-50-1 on June 17 in front of Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin marked the 16th time the aircraft had flown.

Russia has a stated requirement for up to 420 PAK-FA aircraft , which may become the Su-50 in service. This number would equip 10 air regiments, each with 36 frontline aircraft and six reserves. However, it is likely that this total will not be reached. India, meanwhile, has a requirement for 250 of what it calls the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).

India has yet to join the T-50 program, but it has stated that it intends to do so and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) will likely be given development work in the navigation, mission computer and other systems. FGFA is envisioned as a two-seater, but reports suggest that India could acquire single-seat T-50s pending development of the full FGFA configuration.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Jul 2010 11:53

NRao wrote:And .........................................................the US has 124bn and Pakistan has 16bn!!!!!!!!!!!

A larger reserve helps to fund into economy without borrowing from the market increasing the debt ratio , Russia and China with large reserve fund ( china toping in reserve fund ) made good use of it in recent crises , India too made similar use of its reserves , compared to US economy which is debt ridden.

The issue of maturation is related to if there is a need for spending (in which case a country will find the funds - even if they have to eat grass). Russia, in the past decade or two, has had no NEED to build anything new. They really have had no real threats. When they have had (as in the case of missile defense) they have found the funds to make things happen.

They need to develop weapons not just for threats but to compete in global arms market , so yes they didnt develop any new system in late 90's because they didnt had money to do so.

The PAK-FA itself is a great example. Sukhoi has funded the build out of the PAK-FA. As far as I know the PAK-FA has not real "5th gen" engine. The last time I read the Sukhoi chief stated that they need funds + 10-12 years to build an engine for the PAK-FA.

The way Russians work on a specific platform is they mitigate risk over period of many years , compared to west which tries to put in the greatest and latest from the first prototype.

A good example is how Su-27 has evolved from basic Su-27 to its final derivative Su-35 and all that comes in between.

Hence 5th gen engine is part of spreading funding and technology development over a platform life cycle , right now the 117 engine with > 15 T thrust is quite good to power the first batch of PAK-FA.

But as bolck upgrades of PAK-FA evolve and consequently the fighter gets heavier with more bells and whistles and some structural changes they will have to develop a new engine with newer technology.

In spite of brain power - which I am dead sure is declining as time goes by, it has to - they have no need to bring to market any new system/s. So, a PAK-FA will reach some level of maturation, but not to the extent it can or even it should.

I do not know where do you get this idea of brain power decline that you see happening and evolution of PAK-FA and what every you see.

Its not that we do not have brains or they have better brains or something like that , nations like US, Europe , Russia has a long history dating to World War where they Armed forces, MIC , Scientific establishment has worked in tandem to develop military products and these established system are quite mature and can deliver products based on Armed forces requirement , they have also made many mistakes learn t and evolved over period of time.

While WRT India there is a NEED. IF Russia cannot provide India will HAVE to go elsewhere - no option. Thus India will find the funds to make it happen (and she has). IF the frustration (Kargil syndrome) - within India - rises bet India will develop her own, she has to - because of a NEED.

Yes we too over a period of time will develop our own products if our institutes and establishment work in tandem and we too will learn from our mistakes and evolve , we have already done our bit and it will get better with time.

WRT Russia selling and making money .............. well ............... that window has closed. Russia has no real need to build out and her best source for fundS - China - has swindled Russia (what else is new - this was predicted about 10 years ago). Outside of India there is no other nation that can provide the funds needed to bring a system to market. Absolutely none. And even WRT the Indian window it can only get smaller (from a Russian PoV). Indian capabilities to buy and/or make it in-house will/can ONLY get better.

Well last I read their exports have only grown over years and as it stands $38 Billion Russian state arms exporter sees contracts worth $38 bln in 2010 If one door closes there are many which opens for exports in the same way they have got new markets and managed to grow.

Export is very competitive , its one thing to build some system for your own needs and other to be competitive in Global Export Market where there are established players.

Russian export has been successful because they managed to develop cost effective competitive products,there is strong political support for that industry , they have their own brand value and they work in tandem with their intelligence service to gain unfair/fair advantage and deal with similar guys out there from US,Europe etc

I do not know (as I post) how Indian economy compares to that of the Russians, BUT what I do know is that Indian economy is expected to be the 2nd largest by about 2040. (Just read that Chinese economy is expected to cool of in the next 1-2 decades, which is a wee bit of a surprise.) So, yes, I expect the Indian eco to be better than that of Russia.

Yes I have read those figures where China , India , Russia were rated as top economies in 2040 , but those are are predictions and tend to be very dynamic , nothing predictable about those predictions

Now, coming to the PAK-FA and FGFA, as I have posted before, I do not think this will be a happy marriage. India, rightly, expects a lot out of this and reading between the lines - for whatever reason (not blaming anyone) - I do NOT think India is getting what India expected (why I am not sure).

True if India does not get its share of pie ( which as we know is funding 50 % of development and getting 25 % technology for FGFA ) then we have the right to move out of the program and opt for something else which fits our bill and needs.

IMHO the crown jewel of the IAF will bee the MCA (or whatever the latest acronym is). Once the LCA settles (which I feel it will), then the MCA will solidify and will rise to the top.

I will be more happy if they can make LCA a success in the armed forces and get the Mk2 going ,MCA is just another pie in the sky when we have to make the first project into the IAF

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Jul 2010 13:00

Yet again another nation (us) is falling into the pit of "Perfection" with the manner in which the tortous journey the LCA has taken,always wanting the moon in terms of future capabilities,but failing to reach there because of R&D difficulties,financial and other reasons.The Russians are following a pragmatic approach to the PAK-FA,flying it with proven engines and etchnology available now,while its future engine is developed in the interim,allowing a large regime of flight testing to take place which can validate many key aspects of the aircraft such as aerodynamics,weapons firing ,radar performance,etc.The demand for exotic futuristic tech. also drives up costs prohibitively.Just look at the costs of the F-22 and JSF,whose numbers in service with air forces worldwide will be inadequate to meet all the varied tasks and challenges.

PS:Latest AWST has a report on the understanding between India and Russia on developing B'Mos-2,our ramjet/scramjet hypersonic missile.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 20 Jul 2010 07:56

Russian Air Force to get 10 fifth-generation fighters by 2015

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 20 Jul 2010 07:58

shukla wrote:Russia has a stated requirement for up to 420 PAK-FA aircraft

I think its just a bluff.

More like 120 if that!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Jul 2010 10:24

With the recent funding boost for arms procurement to $ 655 billion for 2010 - 2020 as stated by V Popovkin there is a good chance that PAK-FA procurement will be increased significantly.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jul 2010 16:19

Austin ji,

(I have been very, very busy with a new assignment, so sorry for the delayed responses.)

You earlier post (on funding, etc) has plenty of holes, which I will address in another post (for two reasons: 1) I do not have too much time, and 2) I associated (in my first post on "NO funding") funding solely WRT the PAK-FA (and perhaps by extension to other large projects))

WRT the PAK-FA, IF Russia was so well funded I would have expected the State to take great(er) interest than Sukhoi itself in the PAK-FA so far. It is my understanding - and correct me if you think I am wrong - that Sukhoi funded (most?) the PAK-FA we see today.

Now, as news reports have stated, the PAK-FA effort started in 1998. Two items of interest here:
1) IF Russia could actually borrow (against anything) they would have done so and not left the funding mostly to Sukhoi, and
2) They would never have left the engine for such a plane in the minds of engineers in 2010 - and they still are waiting for funding for that engine (which is why I have felt that they want India to fund it, perhaps partially). Mitigation is a viable path to take, BUT when an engine could take 15 years to build out AND the plane is already flying, that is bad planning or total lack of private + government funds (granted my statement covers a lot of ground). I think it is the latter. I feel Sukhoi had the funds and took the risk. The engine manufacturer had no or very little funds and was not willing to take the risk or could not take the risk.

On capability/planning/etc, my ace is the engine they built for the IJT - a "conversion" effort was behind schedule and had issues even after delivery - which is great, such complicated techs do behave in such manner and this is not a knock on them as far as I am concerned. However, IF I were to overlay this thinking on a PAK-FA engine, bet it will not be ready when they claim it will/should (and that, from my side, is OK). BUT what is not OK, as far as I am concerned, is that the belief that all this is planned. I think not. I am inclined to know not. In fact I happen to think that the PAK-FA engine episode is a major goof up on the part of the Russian MoD/government. A huge one. And, I am not certain if they can pull themselves out of this one.

Let me go further on a limb. PAK-FA is a great plane, no two ways about it. But it will not be as mature as India would like it to be (in short the glossy and reality will differ - which is not what India wants) and India will not get what India expected from the Russians (which I think is just great). This is not a knock on the Russians, just an observation of mine.

More later.

I think its just a bluff.

+1.

I feel it is more to keep getting orders for export (other systems included).

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Jul 2010 16:56

NRao wrote:Austin ji,

(I have been very, very busy with a new assignment, so sorry for the delayed responses.)

You earlier post (on funding, etc) has plenty of holes, which I will address in another post (for two reasons:

No problem with that NRao ji , Unfortunately you have never backed any of your assertion by any valid official statement/proof etc , i have provided many official statement/news to back my statements.

But then if its just about views then I can accept it , so that we can just agree to disagree.

WRT the PAK-FA, IF Russia was so well funded I would have expected the State to take great(er) interest than Sukhoi itself in the PAK-FA so far. It is my understanding - and correct me if you think I am wrong - that Sukhoi funded (most?) the PAK-FA we see today.

Yes Sukhoi had the financial strength to backup the project compared to Mig hence Mig lost the game and Sukhoi could sustain it. Once the design was finalised based on RuAF needs the state funding started .

The R&D work and Design and development was initially done by sukhoi and state funding started once that was finalised ( design freeze ) and accepted by RuAF this happened in late 2004.

What is wrong with it ? Sukhoi was any ways cash rich and they knew money will come as they had won the competition.

2) They would never have left the engine for such a plane in the minds of engineers in 2010 - and they still are waiting for funding for that engine (which is why I have felt that they want India to fund it, perhaps partially). Mitigation is a viable path to take, BUT when an engine could take 15 years to build out AND the plane is already flying, that is bad planning or total lack of private + government funds (granted my statement covers a lot of ground). I think it is the latter. I feel Sukhoi had the funds and took the risk. The engine manufacturer had no or very little funds and was not willing to take the risk or could not take the risk.

They had a fifth generation engine via the cancelled heavy MFI program ( there was this nice interview by the engine designer that gave the details of this program If I find it I will post it ) , but that did not fit the PAK-FA requirement , what they did was they utilized what ever they could from that program mostly hot parts since quite a lot of money and ground testing was already done and developed 117 which meets the requirement of thrust and other qualities.

The 117 engine as per their developer is a new engine developed in secret for past 5 years and meets the requirement of PAK-FA.

So new engine is not really needed and if they are developing one they would probably build a common engine for the PAK-FA and PAK-DA in the next 12 years , that would justify the cost of developing a 18T thrust engine.

Let me go further on a limb. PAK-FA is a great plane, no two ways about it. But it will not be as mature as India would like it to be (in short the glossy and reality will differ - which is not what India wants) and India will not get what India expected from the Russians (which I think is just great). This is not a knock on the Russians, just an observation of mine.

I tend to agree , if the IAF wishes it can join the more mature JSF program as one of its international partners.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 20 Jul 2010 17:50

I tend to agree , if the IAF wishes it can join the more mature JSF program as one of its international partners.

What about design? We know JSF is not agile and maneuverable as Pak Fa (claimed to be even more maneauverable than raptor, of course at a cost of bit stealth compared to raptor).....All this let the missile maneuver are only against 4th gen ac... They wont held true against stealth aircrafts operating with jammers and all further degrading the missiles ears and nose...

I think the decision will be highly influenced on what IAF feels more important in next 4 / 5 decades... Stealth V/s Maneuverability and their development of counter measures... I feel time stealth counter will be developed in the course of time. But there is no countermeasure for agility and maneuverability except for of it. Also, even if stealth counter measure dont end up as expected, with the proliferation of stealth aircrafts (F 35 / Pak Fa / J XX), stealth will no longer be the deciding factor?

Russians are banking of maneuverability (multiple reports suggesting 2 30MM guns on pak fa suggest it more firmly than anything else) whereas Americans on Stealth and HOBS missiles...

Of course, this is when FGFA does not turn up which i feel will not happen (Of course my belief only, not for sale

)

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Jul 2010 21:56

The first contracts for the Russian-Indian fighter program 5-th generation can be signed before the end of the year

July 20, AVIA.RU - The first contracts in the framework of Russian-Indian fighter aircraft development programs, the 5 th generation and future military transport aircraft MTA can be signed before the end of the year, according to ARMS-TASS .

According to the Deputy Director FSMTC Alexander Fomin "intergovernmental agreement on these programs have already been concluded, all decisions made by presidents and two governments adopted, defined financing - done a great job."

Now this is the conclusion of specific contractual documents, "he said. "I hope that we can do this job in the current year", - said Deputy FSMTC.

Now partners agree on specifications development of airplanes, said Fomin

( via keypubs )

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 24 Jul 2010 20:07

^^^ Add on to Austins post..

At a briefing at the Russian stall, Alexander Mikheiev, deputy director of the Russian agency Rosoboronexport announced details of the deal involving the fifth generation Russian fighter, T-50.

“I can confirm that an addendum to the agreement on developing an engine for fifth generation fighter will be signed before the end of the year,” he said.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/bus ... 01307.html

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jul 2010 20:35

Dmurphy wrote:Russian Air Force to get 10 fifth-generation fighters by 2015

The initial 10 fighter are being procured for accelerated flight testing ( 2000 hours ) , before this 3 new prototypes will be validating basic flight performance ,weapons and sensors , so eventually 13 prototypes will be performing the complete flight test trial sort of IOC/FOC , if these are successful as determined by RuAF they will go for 60 of the first type.

OT life ho to aisa

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 24 Jul 2010 21:33

If the reports about f22 junk are true then pakfa will prove a real raptor killer

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Jul 2010 22:19

Just curious.

If PAKFA can be a Raptor killer, why not Su 30? What would the PAKFA have in terms of Raptor killing ability that the Su 30 or future upgrades might lack?

You don't need a stealth fighter to kill another stealth fighter, You only need a bullet or missile to hit the plane you want to kill. The only problem is detecting that stealth attacker. After all You don't need a T 90 or Arjun to kill an Al Khali. A Nag will do.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 24 Jul 2010 22:35

Pakfa will kill its business too , more countries will go for f35 or silent eagle ,even americans will buy more upgraded f35 than f22
Btw I think if we ever face any stealth fighter ,it will be f35 most probably because its operational readiness makes it more versatile.