J & K news and discussion

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Jul 2010 16:56

chaanakya wrote:
Acharya wrote:
One of the MP I met recently talked about 1 million retired fauji who are fit can settle in the J&K valley and stabilize the small area of 120 sq km
This is something which needs to be accomplished asap. to keep The Valley in proper shape .

article 370.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 18 Jul 2010 17:11

chaanakya wrote:
Acharya wrote:
One of the MP I met recently talked about 1 million retired fauji who are fit can settle in the J&K valley and stabilize the small area of 120 sq km
This is something which needs to be accomplished asap. to keep The Valley in proper shape .

Rahul M wrote:article 370.

Here , following the subsequent posts , we discussed how we can accomplish this even before 370 meets its 72. Existence of 370 should be made irrelevant. The question is do we foresee this in kongi govt when others get limited /restricted mandate .

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 18 Jul 2010 17:21

Art 370 cannot legally be repealed w/0 express consent of the J&K state assembely.

The first step to getting that consent would be to reorganize the state assembely segments on a popn basis. The census 2010 presents a golden opportunity, IMHO.

Once the valleys and IMs are hanging onto some <50% of MLAs, things will change. Heck, dilli can even nominate some renowned persons to the assembely to represent NA and PoK that are legally still part of Yindia.

Once the assembely votes with 51% majority to appeal to dilli to repeal 370, things can move very far very fast indeed.

I know, fat chance, but hey, unlikelier things have been known to come to pass and all that.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 18 Jul 2010 18:45

A start could have been made by resettling the Pundits. If the original properties are already occupied let them be resettled in more well protected settlements in other land within the valley. Maintain security forces and arm the Pundits a la Israeli settlements in the west bank, and urge them, nay encourage them, to "multiply". There are restrictions on Kashmiri-non-Kashmiri marriages by law that disqualifies land rights if "going out of Kashmiri gene pool". However the other aspects of arming and securing settlements for the pundits is something that cannot be easily waived by the Abdullahs or Muftis or even separatists. The reason that the Cong and the GOI avoids even mentioning the Pundits. Pundits are a card that can explode the myth of Kashmiri claims of a separate "nationalism" and show that the basic drive is Islamist Jihadi agenda and exclusivism.

Presence of Pundit votes could be one route of progress, but backed up by a solid re-expansion programme.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 18 Jul 2010 20:09

brihaspati wrote:There are restrictions on Kashmiri-non-Kashmiri marriages by law that disqualifies land rights if "going out of Kashmiri gene pool". However the other aspects of arming and securing settlements for the pundits is something that cannot be easily waived by the Abdullahs or Muftis or even separatists.

Presence of Pundit votes could be one route of progress, but backed up by a solid re-expansion programme.

This restrictions are by local laws and needs to go just as land laws. This law looks more like endorsement of what Khaps in Haryana are doing to which WKK are opposed. And , rightly pointed out , a start can be made to resettle them with adequate security and economic package including housing , employment job quota etc. with incentive for free education. The problem is WKK type would demand similar facilities for others in rest of india for ==.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 18 Jul 2010 22:48

The WKK == is easy to deal with - simply point out that J&K is not an == state to other states of India. Special status has to be treated with special treatments, sin't it? Let the WKK' support an == for state status first, then we will see!!!

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 19 Jul 2010 09:33

Chindu editorial:
http://www.hindu.com/2010/07/19/stories ... 271100.htm

Police stood by silently on Saturday as motorcycle-borne squads linked to Geelani's Tehreek-i-Hurriyat brutally enforced a shutdown. For all practical purposes, the fragile peace in Srinagar has been purchased by ceding control of parts of the city to the Islamist Right.

Putting more police on the streets to shoot at unarmed protesters cannot, and must not, be the answer.

Chindu fails to ask the obvious question that why putting more police on the streets to arrest the motorcycle borne thugs is not an answer.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 19 Jul 2010 11:21

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 185219.cms

In 2009-10, J&K received Rs 13,252 crore as grants from the Centre, which constitutes nearly 60% of the state's total expenditure. In fact, for the past two decades since the separatist movement spread in the Kashmir valley, the centre has been propping up the state through similar doles. In all, J&K has received grants amounting to Rs 94,409 crore between 1989-90 and 2009-10.

For over a decade, from 1994-95 to 2005-06, the state received 10-12% of all grants disbursed by the central government to the states. In 2009-10, this proportion had dipped slightly to about 8%. This is way above J&K's share of India's population, which is a mere 1%.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 19 Jul 2010 11:59

Hari Seldon wrote:Heck, dilli can even nominate some renowned persons to the assembely to represent NA and PoK that are legally still part of Yindia.

There are nearly 12 lakh Hindus and Sikh who escaped with their bare lives from Western Jammu (Mirpur-Muzzafrabad belt) during the Pakistani invasion of J&K State back in 1947. They are still living as refugees in Jammu and have been demanding for some time the right to elect their representatives to the 25 vacant seats in the J&K assembly. This demand has consistently been opposed by the Kashmir-based politicians and even the central govt keeps mum about giving these people their due rights.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 19 Jul 2010 12:33

Raghavendra wrote: For over a decade, from 1994-95 to 2005-06, the state received 10-12% of all grants disbursed by the central government to the states. In 2009-10, this proportion had dipped slightly to about 8%. This is way above J&K's share of India's population, which is a mere 1%.

cut it off.

once the work culture returns, there will be no time to throw stones in the streets.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 19 Jul 2010 13:31

brihaspati wrote:A start could have been made by resettling the Pundits. If the original properties are already occupied let them be resettled in more well protected settlements in other land within the valley. Maintain security forces and arm the Pundits a la Israeli settlements in the west bank, and urge them, nay encourage them, to "multiply". There are restrictions on Kashmiri-non-Kashmiri marriages by law that disqualifies land rights if "going out of Kashmiri gene pool". However the other aspects of arming and securing settlements for the pundits is something that cannot be easily waived by the Abdullahs or Muftis or even separatists. The reason that the Cong and the GOI avoids even mentioning the Pundits. Pundits are a card that can explode the myth of Kashmiri claims of a separate "nationalism" and show that the basic drive is Islamist Jihadi agenda and exclusivism.

Presence of Pundit votes could be one route of progress, but backed up by a solid re-expansion programme.

B-ji, Honestly speaking, most from the new generation would not want to go back to the hell hole from where there parents just could run away with their lives and nothing else. Anyways what is there to go back to.
Rest of India and Indians are far too beautiful and sweet to return to the nightmare.
The only people who still have desire to go back are the people who are moving into the wrong side of age.
Who in his right mind would want to go back and live with the KM barbarians once again.
Whatever we may say here are saving Kashmir from KM Fanatics and blah blah, but the fact remains that GoI from 1947 onwards left them at the alter of Aurangzebian powers in Kashmir and had it not for Governer Jagmohan and few other Hindu organizations , KP's would have been extinct like white elephant.
There is no myth about separate "Kashmiri nationalism". It is Islamic Jehadi tendencies and agenda that is driving the turmoil in Kashmir.
I still say, either Destroy TSP or Scrap article-370, Settle retired Army folks in Kashmir, move people from overpopulated states in Kashmir and see how long this problem survives.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 19 Jul 2010 19:40

Well, there are many pointers as to the direction to take and general consensus on what steps to take to bring J&K under proper control without violating even art 370 as a result of these discussions. Art 370 can go as a last step, having lost its relevance.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 19 Jul 2010 21:29

Kashmiri Pundits living in Muthi refugee camp (Jammu outskirts) will surely like to go back. But govt seems indifferent. Right now they are trying to resettle the Pandits near Nagrota township (about 15km) from Jammu, instead of working for their resettlement back in Kashmir.

Incidentally many whites from various delegations visit the camp often to "assess the situation ", but nothing good ever comes out of it.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 19 Jul 2010 21:46

As chaanakya has pointed out, Article 370 is a superficial hindrance only. The article gives the GOI jurisdiction over the rights of land transfer, and all that needs to be done is to pass a law without the "except J&K".

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 19 Jul 2010 23:03

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?266249
Vinod Mehta of Outllok wants to help his Islamic bretheren...

The question must be seriously debated. If the people of the Valley so desperately and persistently want “azadi”, should we not give it to them?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 19 Jul 2010 23:13

vijayk wrote:http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?266249
Vinod Mehta of Outllok wants to help his Islamic bretheren...
The question must be seriously debated. If the people of the Valley so desperately and persistently want “azadi”, should we not give it to them?

With no idea of history and geo politics and national interest such articles will keep coming.

J&K is now a geo political issue and it is no longer a regional issue.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 19 Jul 2010 23:20

Another death in police firing in Kashmir
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Another-d ... 74755.aspx

It is essential that in Kashmir the Pandits' lives must be protected at all costs. They should be allowed to return to their places which i understand to be high risk.

The supply of arms and money to those who fight violently must be stopped at all costs. Earlier my suggestion was to divide the state into two. Then hold dialogue with the Kashmir area for a kind of parliament like in Scotland which will be working within the overall governance of Indian constitution.

I was very impressed by the way Vajpayee took this forward during his time with Musharraff in this regard. BJP at that time showed an ability to settle issues. Rajiv Gandhi also settled the Mizo issues easily.

Meanwhile heavy handedness in Kashmir needs to be avoided.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 19 Jul 2010 23:39

One gets the feeling that We have not realized that there is a problem in J&K and its not all about militancy. Like it or not the security presence in the valley is a major irritant to the majority of the people, especially that of the Army and CRPF in civillian areas.

Sometimes the forces which do not belong to the valley , do not understand the sentiments of the valley and are at a loss for how to deal with the Kashmiris, both the minority who indule in violent protest as well as the silent majority. The Army has done it's job in essentially destroying the armed terrorism but in the process an awful lot of innocent people have suffered. The fault for this does not lie with the army but its just the result of a heavy counter insurgency war fought over two decades.

Now is the time to build on that peace, but GoI and I mean succesive govt. have mainly slept on the issue, large periods of peace have been considered good enough for status quo and very little has been done about training the J&K police just like the army, except an army which the normal Kashmiri can identify with and one which does not always seem villaous to them.

The continued presence of CRPF and Army in large urban areas is a PR disaster for India, we need another 15-20 batallions of well armed , trained, motivated and empathatic policemen for the job. Apart from this there is need for proper economic development of the valley and not the thousands of crores which GOI throws at J&K without much accountability. Leave everything aside and just as a stand alone, Kasmir is one of the most down-trodden and pedestrian places in India as far as impact of economic development is concerned.

Kashmir is now our issue, it has nothing to do with Pakistan and India has to solve this problem very carefully and with a lot og paitence. Losing calm and using brute force again would be the ultimate disaster.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 20 Jul 2010 04:11

>>Losing calm and using brute force again would be the ultimate disaster.

While I don't disagree fundamentally with much of your post, the notion of "PR disaster for India" is arrant nonsense. Our image is being damaged in whose eyes, and so what if it is are two questions that would need to be adequately answered. It hasn't been.

To consider a very rough parallel could one say, for instance, that losing calm and using brute force has been a disaster in Tibet? At what cost to China?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 20 Jul 2010 04:44

The Scotland or Wales model is not applicable for at least three different reasons : in Scotland, no outside power is claiming ownership of the territory, there are no violent religious divides [the Scottish church is still not entirely RC anyway], there was indeed distinct cultural and civilizational aspects different from the Anglo-Saxon.

What is being attempted is a Palestinian Intifada style uprising. They have followed all the steps carefully and faithfully : first ethnic cleansing of the non-Muslims to make a consolidated ghetto of the valley inside which all military preparations can be carried out and which can be well protected as a base of operations, provoke national security forces, carefully plan martyrdom and raise esteem rewards for such acts, use western and national Islamophile sympathies for publicity - all the while planning and carrying out preparations for a violent military takeover of the region, periodically pretend at negotiations and extract more resources to fuel the next stage of the military struggle.

It is the hope of concessions that keeps the movement going.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 20 Jul 2010 07:31

GOI ignoring Western Jammu refugees

Chairman of the SOS International Rajiv Chuni (above), alleged that real bone of contention between the two countries is only PoK from where over 12 lakh families have been displaced. It is unfortunate that Government of India is hesitating to talk on the Kashmir issue when Pakistan has annexed thousands square kilometers of its area including Mirpur, Muzaffrabad, Kotli, Gilgit and Skardu. This is the only basic issue and India seemed to have surrendered its claim on PoK the way it is behaving.

Mr Chuni said India kept mum when Pakistan raised Mangla dam on Jhelum where over ten thousand houses of Hindu and Sikh refugees were sub-merged. He said Indian Parliament has unanimously passed resolution to declare that PoK is the integral part of India, then how long lakhs of displaced families from PoK will be left to suffer. The Government of India should clear its stand and tell the refugees what it intends to do about their fate.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 20 Jul 2010 07:48

Airavat ji, I have these info scattered around in various articles and papers. Do you have a single article writeup on all the different expulsions and landgrabs/displacements that I can use? I will acknowledge you, but I have means to disseminate the info into sensitive quarters to generate secondary waves. The GOI may be tongue tied over the plight of non-Muslims of J&K, but there are ways and means to bypass that self-censorship without burdening the precious brains of secularism too much or making them take up more responsibility and accountability than their softness for NC and Valley based Islamism permits.

Almost no campaign exists to counter the agitprop in the pressurizing circles in the west. We can change it slowly and without fanfare.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 20 Jul 2010 09:54

Nihat wrote:One gets the feeling that We have not realized that there is a problem in J&K and its not all about militancy. Like it or not the security presence in the valley is a major irritant to the majority of the people, especially that of the Army and CRPF in civillian areas.

Sometimes the forces which do not belong to the valley , do not understand the sentiments of the valley and are at a loss for how to deal with the Kashmiris, both the minority who indule in violent protest as well as the silent majority. The Army has done it's job in essentially destroying the armed terrorism but in the process an awful lot of innocent people have suffered. The fault for this does not lie with the army but its just the result of a heavy counter insurgency war fought over two decades.

Now is the time to build on that peace, but GoI and I mean succesive govt. have mainly slept on the issue, large periods of peace have been considered good enough for status quo and very little has been done about training the J&K police just like the army, except an army which the normal Kashmiri can identify with and one which does not always seem villaous to them.

The continued presence of CRPF and Army in large urban areas is a PR disaster for India, we need another 15-20 batallions of well armed , trained, motivated and empathatic policemen for the job. Apart from this there is need for proper economic development of the valley and not the thousands of crores which GOI throws at J&K without much accountability. Leave everything aside and just as a stand alone, Kasmir is one of the most down-trodden and pedestrian places in India as far as impact of economic development is concerned.

Kashmir is now our issue, it has nothing to do with Pakistan and India has to solve this problem very carefully and with a lot og paitence. Losing calm and using brute force again would be the ultimate disaster.

I have to disagree with "most down-trodden" bit. Kashmir is the 6th least poorest state in India thanks to all the largesse it has been receiving from Center for all the years mentioned above.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 20 Jul 2010 10:32

brihaspati wrote:Airavat ji, I have these info scattered around in various articles and papers. Do you have a single article writeup on all the different expulsions and landgrabs/displacements that I can use?

Like you, I also know of only different articles. About the PoJK refugees:
The forgotten people of J&K

They have no website of their own yet. And another problem is the tendency to fragment on the basis of religion (Hindu or Sikh) or place of origin. Apparently the largest group of refugees is from Mirpur and as per this article they live in a particular locality of Jammu (Bakshi Nagar) and identify with each other, but less with other refugees like from Kotli, Rawlakot, Bagh or Muzaffrabad:

Mirpur district of Jammu and Kashmir was the third most populated district of the Jammu and Kashmir state after Srinagar and Jammu. It comprised of three tehsils (a sub-unit of a district) – Mirpur, Bhimber and Kotli – and a niabat tehsil (a smaller unit) of Nowshera.

Muslims were a majority in this district, Hindus and Sikhs came population-wise second and third respectively. Most of the migrants from this region to north India are Mahajans (usually traders or money lenders) who came from the Mirpur town, which unlike the whole district had a Hindu majority population. Others included a substantial number of Sikhs (who came from the neighboring villages of Dadiyal, Hill and Ali Beig), Brahmins, and members of castes considered lower in the varna system, like the Dhobis and Chheebas.

The date is 25 November 1947 or 10 Magar 2004 of the Vikram Samvat in the Indian calendar. It was on this day, in this version of history, that the Pakistani Kabailis (the Afghan tribals) attacked the town and massacred 18,000 Hindus (both Mirpuris and the people of the neighboring regions, primarily Punjabis, who had sought shelter in the town post-Partition) out of the 25000 who were present there. The numbers in all probability are exaggerated to show the scale of the tragedy.

Description of the Pakistani army as "Afghan tribals", describing the massacre as a "version of history", and suggesting the deaths as exaggerated, are all red flags. And yes, the website is owned by WKK Balraj Puri .... So you'll need to weed out the WKK elements from this article.

There are also different organizations for all these refugees:
SoS International
Refugees' Sangharsh Morcha
Jammu and Kashmir People Front (JKPF)
West Pakistan Refugees Action Committee (these fled from Punjab Pakistan in 1947 and have not been given any rights whatsoever in J&K)
Then there are the 1965 and 1971 refugees (ousted from Chhamb).

According to another article the localities in Jammu where all these refugees live include Bakshi Nagar, Indira Nagar, Shiv Nagar, Badyal Brahamana, R S Pura, Moara, Garhi, Adarsh Nagar, Bishnah.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 20 Jul 2010 11:35

JE Menon wrote:>>Losing calm and using brute force again would be the ultimate disaster.

While I don't disagree fundamentally with much of your post, the notion of "PR disaster for India" is arrant nonsense. Our image is being damaged in whose eyes, and so what if it is are two questions that would need to be adequately answered. It hasn't been.

To consider a very rough parallel could one say, for instance, that losing calm and using brute force has been a disaster in Tibet? At what cost to China?

In drawing this parallel you have considered (knowingly or unknowingly) China and Tibet as different, while the cost to China has not been much, the cost to Tibet has been very big. The people of Tibet have lost faith in the Chinese policies, due credit to them that they have not taken to violent extremism, perhaps because it is not a part of their culture to use violent means. But use of brute force and permanently severed the links between China and Tibet for generations to come.

The situation in the valley is not quite so bad as yet. Kashmir is a rather small piece of land compared to Tibet, and Jammu as well as Laddakh are very pro-Indian elements in the states. We should not take this aspect for granted, there is a large majority of Kashmiris who just want to live in peace and don't give a shit about "Azadi" but continued use of heavy force in civillian areas are increasingly changing the perception of even these peace loving people and some of them have started to believe that maybe "Azadi" is the solution after all, to get rid of Army and Para's in the region.

Stone pleters use this underlying emotion to create an anti-India hysteria and when this goes out of control , the CRPF opens fire to control the mob (rightly so) and this plays into the hands of Seperatist leaders. All this creates a situation which is the polar opposite of what we want to do in Kashmir.

Let the local police do the job, recruit more and more locals as they are infinetly better at management of such situation than CRPF. For one, the stone pelters will never invoke any kind of sympathy by throwing stones at Local people and it will generate more employment too.

Either way the Paramilitary forces must go to from heavy civilian areas as their presence is creating a perception which is contrary to GoI policies. Besides, they're a law and order force not very capable of handling other situations.

There should be just two kind of forces in Kashmir, the Army and the local police. Army tackles any remaining traces of the militancy and Police handle the other Law and Order issues.

Sometimes when speaking of Kashmir, many posters get emotional and paint all Kashmiri's with the same brush, this is a huge mistake for if there is a 10 Lakh muslim population in Kashmir, only 2 lakh are the pro-azadi types who take to violence. The remaining 8 are against such actions but keep their mouth shut for fear of being targetted by militants, they speak from their actions. Think of the braveheart who slayed 2 L-e-T militants and Faizal who topped the Indian IAS exam.

The GoI is following the wrong strategy in Kashmir and barking up the wrong tree, the people of the valley want jobs, eletricity healthcare and a normal life. The cries for Azadi are just the vocal weapon which some believe will give them all of the above mentioned things.

The onus of Peace in Kashmir and for that matter the N-E and Naxal infested region lies with us as they are some of the Least developed areas of all.

I have to disagree with "most down-trodden" bit. Kashmir is the 6th least poorest state in India thanks to all the largesse it has been receiving from Center for all the years mentioned above.

Believe me , it is down trodden. I have my mothers brother living in the Valley so I happen to visit atleast once a year. Sure, there is the new airport and a few new roads in Srinagar but there are no meanngful jobs, electricity situation is not good which is amazing considering the wealth of Hydro-elec potential in Kashmir and the less said about downtown Srinagar the better. The stunning beauty of the valley only hides the filth beneth.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 20 Jul 2010 14:36

Nihat wrote:Sure, there is the new airport and a few new roads in Srinagar but there are no meanngful jobs, electricity situation is not good which is amazing considering the wealth of Hydro-elec potential in Kashmir and the less said about downtown Srinagar the better.

And how many of these problems are thanks to the people's own making? Sorry to be so blunt. I dont think any part in India is filthy rich and can exist as a welfare state. The state also cannot give jobs to every one. The onus is on the people to find out 'meaningful' jobs and get on. Have the local state government also put in some efforts to identify problem areas in electricity generation and supply? Or is there a widespread belief/notion that all of the ills in Kashmir needs to be taken up by some one else?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 20 Jul 2010 15:14

Sachin wrote:
Nihat wrote:Sure, there is the new airport and a few new roads in Srinagar but there are no meanngful jobs, electricity situation is not good which is amazing considering the wealth of Hydro-elec potential in Kashmir and the less said about downtown Srinagar the better.
And how many of these problems are thanks to the people's own making? Sorry to be so blunt. I dont think any part in India is filthy rich and can exist as a welfare state. The state also cannot give jobs to every one. The onus is on the people to find out 'meaningful' jobs and get on. Have the local state government also put in some efforts to identify problem areas in electricity generation and supply? Or is there a widespread belief/notion that all of the ills in Kashmir needs to be taken up by some one else?

There is an attitude problem, as Omar Abdullah describes:

What does azadi really mean today and what can you deliver to the people? There are kids today who shout about Azadi.

Can you blame them? For 20 years, these two generations have grown up only on this. When you don’t have jobs you shout, “Hum kya chahte hain? Azadi” (What do we want? freedom); when you don’t have electricity you shout Azadi. This is not new. I remember, in my childhood, when electricity went during a popular TV serial, people people represented to a UN office here. That is the dichotomy in our system. Azadi is the magic cure for any and every problem here. What do people mean by Azadi? is it sustainable? that is a question for people who have sold this dream to the public. It is a question for the separatists.

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?266277

What is required is to handle the situation firmly, but in a way that transparently fair to everybody. There are a substantial number of Kashmiris who are OK with India ... we want to retain their support, while exposing the hollowness of the "Azadi"-mongers to others.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 20 Jul 2010 15:46

Pranav wrote:What is required is to handle the situation firmly, but in a way that transparently fair to everybody.

I agree with you here. And one of the way forward would be to persuade,cajole the Kashmiris to mix with the rest of the country. When people sit in a small island/cocoon of their own, a sense of "we are special" or sense of entitlement soon sets in. And yes, the politicos also have goofed up big time in this case.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 20 Jul 2010 17:30

Nihat wrote,

Sometimes when speaking of Kashmir, many posters get emotional and paint all Kashmiri's with the same brush, this is a huge mistake for if there is a 10 Lakh muslim population in Kashmir, only 2 lakh are the pro-azadi types who take to violence. The remaining 8 are against such actions but keep their mouth shut for fear of being targetted by militants, they speak from their actions. Think of the braveheart who slayed 2 L-e-T militants and Faizal who topped the Indian IAS exam.

The GoI is following the wrong strategy in Kashmir and barking up the wrong tree, the people of the valley want jobs, eletricity healthcare and a normal life. The cries for Azadi are just the vocal weapon which some believe will give them all of the above mentioned things.

The onus of Peace in Kashmir and for that matter the N-E and Naxal infested region lies with us as they are some of the Least developed areas of all.

In this thread I think we have been given an estimate of central assistance/budgetary allocation of nearly 10% of whole, only for J&K, whereas the population proportion is of the order of 1%. Now where have all this money gone? Most states also generate revenue and contribute by their own economic activity. it cannot forever be a one way flow.

Even if 80% of the population does not support the militants, as you say, if they remain silent about their opposition, there is no way to verify that they really oppose the militants. It is not as if they do not have a history of violent resistance to invaders and militants - they did try in 1947-48. What prevented this "overwhelming" majority from defending the Hindus and Sikhs from being ethnically cleansed out of the valley?

If the majority remains silent, then their fate will be determined by the determined minorities. Frankly, the overall behaviour of valley muslims does not give rise to any confidence that they were unwilling participants in the genocidic cleansing of non-Muslims. Only when that expulsion did not prove sufficient to provide in economic gain from classic jihadi takeover of "land" , it appears that the population is again showing "resentment" at repression. Like Paki muslims, the valley muslims will have to absorb the fact that jazyia is no longer an undisputed method of living off the fruits of non-Muslim labour.

Having said that, even if there is so legally stringent and violent opposition to non-Muslim Kashmiris settling, or even doing business in the Valley - there is no violent legal opposition faced by Kashmiri Muslims in settling or doing business in the rest of India. They can always come out of that place and make a living! Send in money from their legitimate profits back to their "homeland" and let it develop! At least that will be a normal economic process and a productive process at that instead of throwing stones if greater dole is not being given.

I am increasingly seeing Valley Muslim students abroad at universities. They are usually reluctant to reveal the source of their funding. On discreet probing, it appears that many are funded directly or indirectly by funds ultimately derived from GOI.

How long do the valley Muslims plan on continuing to exclude "India" but still maintain the extraction process from India to fund their exclusive enjoyment of the valley? When do they plan to allow back the legitimate, but displaced non-Muslims back into the valley as "full" citizens? and also protect them from their own jihadi mindset that seems to be prevalent more and more?

It is unfair to connect this with NE or naxal-infestation. If development or the lack of it is the sole driver of violent resentment, the question arises as to what were the standards of living "before"? If standards were worse, and consumption levels were lower, then all this resentment is about aspiration and not having the resources to reach that aspiration. Now the question is whether this lack of input is from a deliberate exploitation and removal of capital from the place by "external" or non-local powers, or the lack of readiness to enhance and adopt changing modes of skill and education to use local resources? Most of NE appears to have suffered from the "preservation of lifestyle" and "no intervention in indigenous culture" syndrome. Bengal has a legitimate complaint in its radicalism because it suffered virtual transfer of capital out of the state by GOI policies deliberately aimed at using the productive resources of the state to fund regions dearer to the heart of Cong leaders in power at Delhi. But not much evidence for a similar process in NE and Valley.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Jul 2010 18:10

Sachin wrote:
Pranav wrote:What is required is to handle the situation firmly, but in a way that transparently fair to everybody.
I agree with you here. And one of the way forward would be to persuade,cajole the Kashmiris to mix with the rest of the country. When people sit in a small island/cocoon of their own, a sense of "we are special" or sense of entitlement soon sets in. And yes, the politicos also have goofed up big time in this case.

Every state has already been asked to treat these asses with special care with quotas and all.

the "we are special or sense of entitlement" is already part of their birthright.

We should spread some famous Indian poverty among these guys to foster a sense of belonging.
Bring them to the status of BIMARU states.

Nothing like a little love to set things right.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 20 Jul 2010 19:04

Agree with Brihaspati jee.

There is no electricity because they NEVER pay the bill. Most homes don't even have meters. Last time when a drive was launched to install tamper-proof meter, most were broken or tampered within hours of installation.
There are no water meters anywhere in the state.
Paying for such services is an alien concept for these people. This sense of one-way entitlement has to be crushed. Anything soft will only make them more Paki

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 20 Jul 2010 19:24

There are thousands of Kashmiri Muslims who have been slaughtered by Jihadis for not cooperating enough. IAS topper Faisal's father was one such victim.

At the same time, there is a RAPE class and a Jihadist class that should not be shown any indulgence.

One needs to take a holistic view.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 20 Jul 2010 23:45

Nihat wrote: Believe me , it is down trodden. I have my mothers brother living in the Valley so I happen to visit atleast once a year. Sure, there is the new airport and a few new roads in Srinagar but there are no meanngful jobs, electricity situation is not good which is amazing considering the wealth of Hydro-elec potential in Kashmir and the less said about downtown Srinagar the better. The stunning beauty of the valley only hides the filth beneth.

The fact still remains that there are 22 other states in the Union of India which are poorer than J & K. You can visit any of these states and find places which are more economically depressed than Kashmir valley.

And these 22 states do not live off the grant from the center.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 21 Jul 2010 00:24

Exactly. No. of educated unemployed must be greater in Jammu and Laddakh than in Kashmir. You wouldn't see such protests there either.
General feeling among locals in Jammu is that Kashmiri muslims occupy most of posts in almost all govt. departments, specially civil sectt.

One of the reasons behind Kashmiris going ballistic this years was the decision to post candidates for state govt jobs anywhere in J&K (including kashmir) irrespective of their residence . This means that a non-muslim from Jammu/Laddakh can be posted in Kashmir and vice-versa. Communal KMs didn't like this one bit. These free-loaders don't have any problem when they are offered jobs anywhere in J&K or rest of India, but appointment of non-muslims in Islamic valley is a Hindu conspiracy to destroy culture/Kashmiriyat unique to Kashmir.

They have already wiped out every non-muslim, have this divisive article 370 and wolf down aid worth billions every year without doing a day's work. What other concessions can be offered to these compulsive whiners ?
Psychology of KMs is no different than their brethren across the border.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 21 Jul 2010 05:38

jamwal wrote:Exactly. No. of educated unemployed must be greater in Jammu and Laddakh than in Kashmir. You wouldn't see such protests there either.
General feeling among locals in Jammu is that Kashmiri muslims occupy most of posts in almost all govt. departments, specially civil sectt.

One of the reasons behind Kashmiris going ballistic this years was the decision to post candidates for state govt jobs anywhere in J&K (including kashmir) irrespective of their residence . This means that a non-muslim from Jammu/Laddakh can be posted in Kashmir and vice-versa. Communal KMs didn't like this one bit. These free-loaders don't have any problem when they are offered jobs anywhere in J&K or rest of India, but appointment of non-muslims in Islamic valley is a Hindu conspiracy to destroy culture/Kashmiriyat unique to Kashmir.

They have already wiped out every non-muslim, have this divisive article 370 and wolf down aid worth billions every year without doing a day's work. What other concessions can be offered to these compulsive whiners ?
Psychology of KMs is no different than their brethren across the border.

Valid issues, but it is a self-goal if one tars all KMs with the same brush ...

Anyway, what is the latest as regards the state govt job posting issue? Are Jammu people posted in the valley?

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 21 Jul 2010 22:52

Nihat,

>>In drawing this parallel you have considered (knowingly or unknowingly) China and Tibet as different, while the cost to China has not been much, the cost to Tibet has been very big. The people of Tibet have lost faith in the Chinese policies, due credit to them that they have not taken to violent extremism, perhaps because it is not a part of their culture to use violent means. But use of brute force and permanently severed the links between China and Tibet for generations to come.

Not sure what the above have got to do with it, but my point was specifically and only regarding your claim of a PR disaster for India. And I asked: in whose eyes? I also pointed out the very rough chinese parallel. What has the cost been to them of what might justifiably be called a much greater PR disaster in Tibet. So far as I can see, not a whole lot. Hence my question: in whose eyes? Which you haven't answered.

If the Tibet PR disaster (and it truly is a sad case) can be handled by the Chinese without much difficulty, i fail to see where our much gentler handling of Kashmir which is a part of India can be a PR disaster of any magnitude.

The rest of your post above can be responded to with one sentence: No one wants to oppress the Kashmiris, and our military and paramilitary are not there just because they have a special love for suppressing Kashmiris, but if Kashmiris continue to support Pak-inspired and instigated terrorism in the name of secession or accession to Pakistan, they will be crushed.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 22 Jul 2010 09:37

It seems at least some Kashmiris are getting fed up of their jihadi brothers. This letter to editor to the valley's pro-secessionist and anti-Indian rag conveys some of that:

Just introspect
I appreciate your editorial titled “introspection”. You have highlighted the sufferings of common Kashmiris in a brilliant manner. As a Kashmiri I am unable to understand the happenings around. I don’t feel any difference between troops and those who damage vehicles, ambulances, shops and houses. I think if the situation continues like this, there will be a fight between a Kashmiri and the one who resorts to hooliganism on the streets. What is the fun of having a movement when our survival is at stake? We can dream of independence only when we are economically and socially strong.

Suhail Ahmed
Srinagar

http://www.greaterkashmir.com/news/2010 ... pect-8.asp

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 22 Jul 2010 12:09

but my point was specifically and only regarding your claim of a PR disaster for India. And I asked: in whose eyes? I also pointed out the very rough chinese parallel. What has the cost been to them of what might justifiably be called a much greater PR disaster in Tibet. So far as I can see, not a whole lot. Hence my question: in whose eyes? Which you haven't answered.

To be very specific then, the PR disaster thing I mentioned was solely in the context of Kashmiri's , those who are our own people and who don't indulge in terror activities but just want to live in peace, the rest of India cannot be seen as rough entity in their eyes whos only purpose is to kill terrorists and maintain law and order. We hope to live as people of one nation and so we must listen to what they have to say. Here , I don't mean talk to extremists or stone pelters but identifying the moderates and listening to them.

We should not care what foreign powers think of our handling of the situation because frankly its none of their business and so I'm not bothered as to what image India projects for Kashmir outside the border.

We need a revision on our troop deployment policy and training as well, the Army is doing its job brilliantly but Police recruitment has to be stepped up and paramilitary forces withdrawn to be replaced by more efficiant local police forces.

we're getting things done rapidly on one side but something is lacking somewhere in our efforts, its hard to pin point what exactly but perhaps it is the needless pampering of those who want violence and are paid puppies of TSP and inability to reach out to moderate population of the valley.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 22 Jul 2010 14:18

Good, so the PR disaster has nothing to do with outsiders. That is now clarified. Let us move on.

>>To be very specific then, the PR disaster thing I mentioned was solely in the context of Kashmiri's , those who are our own people and who don't indulge in terror activities but just want to live in peace,

Where is India's problem with them? Assume that the rest of the population, which you say is a minority, who do indulge in terrorist activities and just don't want to live in peace did not exist, what would the difference be then, between Anantnag, Kashmir and Bangalore, Kerala? Zero, methinks. As I said, the military is not there just because Indians of all other states want to oppress Kashmiris. They are there to deal with the specific problem of violence, and that is being handled as best as can be given the circumstances.

>>the rest of India cannot be seen as rough entity in their eyes whos only purpose is to kill terrorists and maintain law and order.

Who on BRF is disputing this?

>>We hope to live as people of one nation and so we must listen to what they have to say.

Again, no on BRF as far as I can tell is disputing this. But the question is where is the "they" you mention? Who are representatives of the peaceful majority that GoI is NOT talking to? As far as GoI declaratory policy goes, it CANNOT get any softer: "abandon violence and we will talk". That's it. Those who have abandoned violence are being talked to, and as you well know some who haven't abandoned violence are being talked to as well. GoI is very clear about this, and they represent the people of India - the vast majority of whom I can pretty much guarantee don't give a flying fu(k who the Chief Minister in Kashmir is, so long as they do not advocate secession, and so long as the people of the state do not quietly condone violence to achieve said secession.

Apart from that a whole series of "hearts and minds" initiatives have been implemented ranging from Gen. Arjun Ray's Sadhbhavna exercise to the schoolchildrens' visits across the rest of India; others are much more qualified to talk about it than I.

As for family members, many of us on BRF have family links to Kashmir, including myself. We are not ignorant of what goes on there, by any means.

What I would like to see, is an explicit positive activity/response from the majority of the Kashmiri people to the Indian state, and an equally explicit/negative response against the Pakistani-orchestrated and Kashmiri traitor driven secessionist violence.

The silent majority of Kashmir needs to speak up.

You know, we all appreciate where you are coming from (i.e where your heart is), and we actually agree broadly with the rest of your points. No one disputes that we should do whatever we can to integrate J&K more completely and holistically into the embrace of Mother India. But the tendency is most often to simply suggest that GoI/Indians do "more". It is about time the Kashmiris did more: more of self-help and advancement, and less of sitting on the fence.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 22 Jul 2010 21:55

Pranav wrote:Anyway, what is the latest as regards the state govt job posting issue? Are Jammu people posted in the valley?

Last that I heard of it, about 500 posts in Kashmir were allotted to Kashmiri Pandits, but none have joined till now due to threats made by Kashmir Muslims and then this new strike-hartal tamasha. These trurds are completely against return of Pandits to their homes. Non-kashmiris are not even in the picture yet.