Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2010

[abhishek_sharma]

Headley and Pak Establishment linked, these links will not be broken soon: NSA Menon (NDTV reports)

[chetak]

...Government officials have since publicly circled their wagons around Mr. Pillai....

How many Indians will get this American phrase 'circling the wagon'? what does this even mean to an Indian (even those who can read and understand english). This guy is a pompous ass.

Only strengthens the strong suspicion that the guy is actually an american citizen!!

[KLNMurthy]

he he less or no monitoring where the funds disappear. it is a controlled payoff to the pakistani elites in exchange for 'co-operation' on goat.

USAID is headed by Rajiv Shah. Enough said. echandee only.

[SSridhar]

Headley and Pak Establishment linked, these links will not be broken soon: NSA Menon (NDTV reports)

That's a perplexing statement from our NSA. Did he mean possibly LeT instead of Headley ?

[abhishek_sharma]

Headley and Pak Establishment linked, these links will not be broken soon: NSA Menon (NDTV reports)

That's a perplexing statement from our NSA. Did he mean possibly LeT instead of Headley ?

I will try to find the video. The link is here:

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/headl ... enon-38533

It appears that the Paki behavior has angered everyone. But then why are they unhappy with Pillai?

[abhik]

Details on TSP's role in blocking the Transit trade corrider between Afghanistan and India.
From The News : US meddling in transit trade talks irks ex-diplomats

Have we ever considered doing an '= =' and preventing trade, flights over our territory etc.(essentially steps to prevent movement of goods and people) between pak and Nepal?
I am assuming here that most of their very significant bilateral trade of ..er.... 5 million $(from Wiki) passes through India at one point or another and that flights between the two countries fly over India. No doubt that they can always go via China but that will significantly add to the costs, will definitely hurt the low end terrorist, drug runner, counterfeiter, mafia etc.
If you think about it Our reasons for doing so will be exactly same as that of pak's excuses of blocking trade transit between India and Afghanistan, i.e. detrimental to our security, our strategic back yard ,greater cultural similarities etc. Of course Nepal will also get the message intended or unintended.

[Hari Seldon]

^^^ Has US ever stepped out of any country they set foot in ?

Iran. And 'Nam.

[abhishek_sharma]

^^ They do say that we do not allow them to trade with Nepal/Bhutan (see Daily Times editorial)

[sum]

Don't talk to Pakistan for the sake of talking

Given the repeated failures of such engagements, New Delhi [ Images ] should quickly accept the futility of talking for talk's sake with Pakistan, says Nitin Gokhale, defence editor with NDTV

India's home secretary Gopal Krishna Pillai is that rare civil servant who is unafraid to interact with the media on a day to day basis.

He bats straight, articulates the government's position succinctly and unambiguously.

He's easily the most popular civil servant among journalists -- both beat reporters as well as senior editors -- for being accessible and informative.

It was, therefore, not surprising to see him make the candid revelation to a group of journalists that American terrorist David Coleman Headley's [ Images ] interrogation by Indian sleuths fully confirmed what India always suspected: the Mumbai [ Images ] attack was the handiwork of the Inter Services Intelligence from inception to execution.

In a way, the home secretary was only reiterating what has been widely known in the Indian security and intelligence establishment and to those who report on these matters ever since Headley started singing to the Americans in November 2009.

Essentially, Headley confirmed what Indian investigators had surmised after interrogating the lone surviving Mumbai attacker Ajmal Amir Kasab [ Images ]. According to Kasab and now Headley, the ISI and the Pakistani army were involved in training the Mumbai attackers along with LeT handlers. Both revealed that:

# Two of the five training camps of the Mumbai attackers were located at Mangla reservoir near the Tarbala dam

# Access to these two dams are controlled by Pakistani army and navy

# The attackers were trained by Pakistani marine commandos

# At least three Pakistani army/ISI officers – Maj Haroon Shah, Maj Iqbal, Major Sameer Ali -- were directly in touch with the attackers

All this information and sketches of the Pakistani officers based on Headley's description formed part of the latest dossier given to Pakistan by Home Minister P Chidambaram [ Images ] during his visit there. The Pakistani interior ministry therefore knew what Pillai was talking about.

So those woolly-headed analysts who are citing the Indian home secretary's remark as THE reason for the failure of the latest India-Pakistan talks are clearly chasing a red herring or are deliberately obfuscating facts.

The truth is: The Pakistani army-ISI conglomerate was uncomfortable with whatever little progress the India-Pakistan civil interlocutors were making.

Any success achieved by the political establishment in making peace with India would make the army less important, a state of affairs that the Pakistani military is not used to.

So, Pakistan Army [ Images ] Chief Gen Asfaq Kayani and the ISI boss Gen Shuja Ahmed Pasha systematically proceeded to sabotage the talks by citing Pillai's remark about the ISI's involvement in the Mumbai attack

They could not have let the likes of Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi get away with permitting India reinforcing Headley's confessions implicating the ISI. Kayani also had to reiterate the army's superiority over the civil government as the parleys were heading towards a "constructive" phase.

According to insiders at the dialogue, the atmosphere changed between 3.30 and 4.30 pm on July 14.

By then, Foreign Minister SM Krishna and his Pakistani counterpart had sorted out all differences to hammer out a mutually-acceptable agreement.

It was at this crucial juncture, around 4 pm, that the all-powerful Pakistani army chief intervened.

Kayani called on President Asif Ali Zardari [ Images ] and Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani [ Images ] in quick succession before Krishna could meet either of them.

In less than half an hour after that, Islamabad [ Images ] had changed track, insisting on a timeframe for resumption of peace talks, a commitment which Islamabad knew India could not make. The dialogue inevitably degenerated into a slanging match.

So why did Kayani sabotage the talks?

The obvious reason is of course to retain the army's influence in Pakistan's polity, but the bigger reason could be Kayani's plan to gain a firm foothold in Afghanistan as an increasingly nervous United States begins to look at winding down its involvement in Pakistan's western neighbour in a year's time. In this period, the Pakistani army is clearly looking at gaining an edge in once again installing a puppet regime in Kabul, thus gaining the much-vaunted "strategic depth".

Simultaneously, with Kashmir [ Images ] valley in turmoil, it suits the Pakistani army to keep the pot boiling by once again stepping up infiltration across the Line of Control [ Images ].

All available indications suggest that at least 500-600 well-trained militants of various tanzims are currently housed in Muzaffarabad in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir. Latest intelligence inputs say at least 15-16 small groups of these militants are attempting to cross over through known and as well as little-used infiltration routes. They have been given lethal weapons and high-end GPS devices, besides well-informed, well-paid scouts to guide the groups into Kashmir.

The Indian army [ Images ], aware of these plans, has put up a re-tweaked, three-tiered counter-infiltration grid all along the LoC but as recent encounters have shown, the lethality possessed by the infiltrating groups is causing many more casualties than before. This year since January, the Army has already lost five officers and 45 other ranks while killing over 130 militants. By comparison, in 2009 over 260 militants were killed throughout the year while 78 security men died in that period.

Apart from pushing in more militants, the ISI has been active in fomenting trouble across the valley's smaller towns and Srinagar [ Images ] by financing separatists to encourage protests against the Omar Abdullah [ Images ] government.

Under the circumstances, Kayani and his fellow corps commanders could not have tolerated any prospects of progress in peace dialogue with India.

That GK Pillai made that brutally honest remark about the ISI's involvement in the Mumbai attack on the eve of Krishna's visit to Islamabad, was a sheer stroke of luck for Kayani and company.

To that extent, one can question the timing of Pillai's remark but not his intent because irrespective of the Indian home secretary's assertion, the GHQ would have sabotaged the talks by finding some other flimsy excuse.

No suggestions given as to what else can be done other than "not talking for talks sake"

[abhishek_sharma]

Time For A Game Changer
ASHRAF JEHANGIR QAZI

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Home ... 187928.cms

Our leaders have no option but to jointly collect the Nobel peace award!

The writer is former Pakistan high commissioner to India.

[Airavat]

Have we ever considered doing an '= =' and preventing trade, flights over our territory etc.(essentially steps to prevent movement of goods and people)

Yes, all Paki overflights over Indian territory were banned during Operation Parakram (2001-02).

[RajeshA]

Our leaders have no option but to jointly collect the Nobel peace award!

That is an open admission that Pakistan has itself nothing to give India, except a joint shot at something meaningless from a third party!

[SSridhar]

That is an open admission that Pakistan has itself nothing to give India, except a joint shot at something meaningless from a third party!

There is a saying in my language that goes like this: I will bring husk, you will bring rice and let's cook and eat.

It will be the biggest travesty of truth if any Pakistani from the Terrorist State of Pakistan stands on the podium at Oslo City Hall for a Nobel Peace Prize.

[abhishek_sharma]

Copied from another thread

Pak turns tables on India; what does India gain from these talks-Brahma Chellaney

[amit]

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/headl ... enon-38533

It appears that the Paki behavior has angered everyone. But then why are they unhappy with Pillai?

I hope this statement from the NSA puts to rest the theory that the peaceniks are unhappy with Pillai's statement.

New Delhi: India's National Security Advisor, Shivshankar Menon, has said that clear links between Pakistan's establishment and Pakistani-American terrorist David Headley have been established during Headley's recent interrogation by Indian investigators. Menon also said that the nexus between terror and the Pakistani establishment is getting stronger. (Watch)

Menon's remarks are more pointed than what the Indian Home Secretary, GK Pillai, said earlier this month, causing a storm at the India-Pakistan talks in Islamabad.

Here's the link to the video

The "unhappy with Pillai" remarks have appeared in the Press quoting as usual unnamed sources and of course SV's ringing the wagons remark. (I hope SV understood the contextual nature of that pharse. It used to be done by Western settlers who were attacked by Indians. There is a gora vs natives symbolism here).

And here we have the NSA saying the same thing and taking it further.

In this case does it still seem that there are two camps pulling in opposite directions? I think the Headley revelations have prompted a major re-think in GoI.

[RajeshA]

If any Indian deserves a Nobel Peace Prize it is K.P.S. Gill.

[amit]

Copied from another thread

Pak turns tables on India; what does India gain from these talks-Brahma Chellaney

Dangerous delusions characterise the Indian policy approach. One is that, “We cannot wish away the fact that Pakistan is our neighbour,” as the PM says. So, “a stable, peaceful and prosperous Pakistan” is in India’s “own interest.” But political maps are never carved in stone, as the breaking away of Eritrea, East Timor and others have shown. Didn’t Indira Gandhi change political geography in 1971? In fact, the most-profound global events in recent history have been the fragmentation of several states, including the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia. If Pakistan wishes to selfdestruct , why does India want “a stable, peaceful and prosperous Pakistan” ?

While it is fine for BC to write something like this to warm the hearts of jingos, I'm unclear how India can articulate such a stand as a foreign policy objective?

I mean if Indian PM says we don't want a stable and prosperous Pakistan and want to break it up for public consumption, then how different are we from that terrorist state or for the matter LeT and that fastso Hafiz both of whom have declared that their stated objective is to balkanise India.

It's another matter altogether that Pakistan seems to be doing a fine job by itself in self-destruct as a nation. All we need to do is to give the TSPA no excuse to rally the different factions having fun killing each other by raising the bogey of India.

[amit]

If any Indian deserves a Nobel Peace Prize it is K.P.S. Gill.

Rajesh, I second that!

[Pratyush]

RajeshA, that may be but only time an Indain "Leader" gets the award will be when gives up Cashmere.

[Pratyush]

Amit,

Could it be that we are not really understanting what is ment by, “a stable, peaceful and prosperous Pakistan”. Could it be that they mean, a fracrured and weak at war TSP. But are being nice about it. Cause, the Indian Governmetnt has never actualy been Magnimous (Giving Cashmere away ) to TSP. They just confine themselves to making statements of piety towards TSP.

NO....

[RajeshA]

Off topic here, but ...

What one needs for a Nobel Peace Prize is a signing ceremony before that, where the head of the political wing of some insurgency sits down with Mr. Heavy Hand and come to a 'peace agreement'. This on the other hand, can happen only after Mr. Heavy Hand fully destroys the fighting capacity of the group, and gives the political leadership a face saver to clinch the peace.

So if an Indian Prime Minister wants to have the Nobel Peace Prize, he should first destroy Pakistan, and then reach some agreement with the leaders of the constituent parts, and talk about how peace is the need of the hour, blah, blah ....

The rest is marketing and sending letters of support for the candidate to Oslo!

[SSridhar]

IDSA Book: Whither Pakistan

eBook download is possible.

[RajeshA]

“a stable, peaceful and prosperous Pakistan” could very well be a code word in GoI for a "Brick upp yore Musharraf"

[Lalmohan]

if we step back for a moment, it is perhaps easy to see that the talks were going to fail no matter what. jacque's (jack ass qureshi)crude rude and stupid remarks were frustrations aired because paques had nowhere left to go. progress in talks does not help the power elite in pacqueland one little bit, quite the opposite. so if india says yes to chai-biskoot, then pacque has to say no chai, i wanted K-offee, why can't you give me K-offee? so unkil and india have set the stage for pakfauj kollaboration, but pakfauj has not come to the party, and jacques has been its public gaddha. not only has it screamed for K-offee but now insisted that it be flown over from starbucks in seattle especially... nothing left to lose, so may as well go for broke

is anyone really fooled by this performance so full of sound and fury, signifying nothing?

[amit]

Amit,

Could it be that we are not really understanting what is ment by, “a stable, peaceful and prosperous Pakistan”. Could it be that they mean, a fracrured and weak at war TSP. But are being nice about it. Cause, the Indian Governmetnt has never actualy been Magnimous (Giving Cashmere away ) to TSP. They just confine themselves to making statements of piety towards TSP.

NO....

My point exactly. Unfortunately this is not a popular viewpoint. Folks take diplomatic jargon too literally as far as India-Pak relations are concerned.

[bart]

jacque's (jack ass qureshi)

LOL, nice.

[amit]

is anyone really fooled by this performance so full of sound and fury, signifying nothing?

Lalmohan ji,

If you read BC's article, even a seasoned strategist like him seems to have been fooled.

This is his opening paragraphs in the article linked above:

In the blame-game over the botched Islamabad talks, it is India that comes out looking poorer. {Maybe it's me, but I fail to see how India comes out poorly because Qureshi behaved like a jackass}
First, it resumed talks with Pakistan without having secured anything on the central issue of terrorism. Second, having made a diplomatic climbdown, India found itself being publicly put in the dock {by a jackass} at the conclusion of the Islamabad talks.

The upshot is that a defensive India has had to respond to public accusations by a country whose state agencies continue to orchestrate acts of terror against Indian targets. This, however, is not the first time Pakistan has turned the tables on India.
{And what advantages has it given to Pakistan? If we take a timeline from Agra to the present, what has Pakistan gained and India lost?}
Whether it was the Agra summit, or the Sharm el-Sheikh meeting, or the latest talks, it was a “hurt” India that came out defending itself. As long as India continues to cling to a diplomacy of hope and dreams, Pakistan, although a failing state, will continue to reap the diplomatic advantage.

[Lalmohan]

amit-ji, i interpret it differently. we are poorer because we have pandered to the jackass not for the underlying dynamics, is what i think BC is saying

[Pratyush]

If scoring points was the agenda of talks then India lost by a huge margin as it failed to score points with any of its constituency. But if the agenda was to put our point across, then I must be a hopelessly optimistic guy to feel that India did what what it set out to do. That is to keep terror at the centerstage of the dialogue process. Without giving any thing away to TSP.

[Pratyush]

amit-ji, i interpret it differently. we are poorer because we have pandered to the jackass not for the underlying dynamics, is what i think BC is saying

What are the underlying dynamics to this discussion.

The way I see it is as follows.

1) 3.5 put enormus pressure on the GOI to talk.
2) GOI obliges by talking bout Terror.

That is the dynamic as far as India is concerned. If it some thing else then please educate this unwashed abdul

[Lalmohan]

^^^ pratyush, i concur with your 2nd analysis and your subsequent post, which is why there was so much venting and ranting from jacques

[sum]

Love the name jacques!!!

[KrishG]

Sorry if posted before----

Only 960 years left for Bhutto’s war

It is unarguable, though, that the Bhuttos, having proved pathetically impotent whenever they waged war against India, have tried to reassure themselves with the flatulent hype of a war of words.

The Bhuttos, and Bhutto-led governments, seem lost in a rut that has become brittle and boring through over-use. Their only measure of Pakistani patriotism is the level of hysteria that they can simulate against India. A psychiatrist would be tempted to trace this habit to the fate of Sir Shahnawaz Bhutto, Prime Minister of Junagadh before partition, whose plan to merge his state into Pakistan went badly awry. Bhutto went, of course, minus his state, closely followed by the Nawab of Junagadh who left his family behind but escaped with his dogs. Such speculation, however, is not quite within the realm of a newspaper column.

It is unarguable, though, that the Bhuttos, having proved pathetically impotent whenever they waged war against India, have tried to reassure themselves with the flatulent hype of a war of words. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto was the theorist as well as leader of the 1965 war for Kashmir, a claim that he would doubtless have stressed with far greater glee if Pakistan had succeeded. Operation Gibraltar and Operation Grand Slam failed miserably, an assertion proved by the simple fact that not an inch of territory changed hands along the Cease Fire Line in Jammu and Kashmir.

In 1971, Bhutto tried to camouflage humiliation in Dhaka by promising a thousand years of war against India. Well, we still have 960 years left. No hurry, then, for a peace treaty. Implicit in the 1000-year threat is the recognition that Pakistan cannot win on the battlefield, since if you win war ceases. Futility is, apparently, not sufficient reason for Pakistan to stop fighting.

Zulfiqar’s daughter Benazir Bhutto came to Pakistan-occupied Kashmir in 1989, abused Narasimha Rao and promised Kashmir “azadi”, her decibel levels rising to a shriek by the time she had finished the last “azadi” in her speech. Two decades have passed since then, Benazir has been assassinated in her own country, and not an inch of territory has changed hands in Kashmir. Her husband Asif Zardari’s government will sooner or later leave office, either after a peaceful election, or a more violent ejection by the cantonment, and not an inch of territory will have changed despite his plastic smile or his Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi’s immature incandescence. War, formal or clandestine, will achieve nothing.

It is possible that the Bhuttos and their servitors do not mean what they say, that this is their default position in the confrontation with their permanent foes in the armed forces. It is time, however, they learnt that terrorism has made the world too dangerous for bluster. The international consensus against this plague will not tolerate the tepid “root cause” argument, either, as justification.

Qureshi forgot that the world was listening when he said that terrorist-infiltrators in the Kashmir were India’s problem. He would not last a minute in his job if he told America that Al Qaeda was Washington’s problem and the Pentagon should deal with them once they had infiltrated into America. When the FBI wants a suspect, Pakistan picks up six in six hours. When India asks for Hafiz Saeed, Qureshi talks about India’s home secretary G.K. Pillai — not in the quiet of a conference hall, but at a press conference.

It is no one’s case that S.M. Krishna, a suave and seasoned politician, should stoop to Qureshi’s levels of street rhetoric. Perhaps Krishna’s courtesy prevented him from describing this as nonsense, but silence is not always the best answer to stupidity.

India is America’s friend. Pakistan is America’s ally. Islamabad has the transcript of David Headley’s interrogation in which he exposed the fact that ISI gave at least Rs 25 lakh to fund the terrorist attack on Mumbai in November 2008. Any criminal enquiry will take the trail to the most powerful force in Pakistan. Qureshi had to try and deflect the terrorist issue. He did not have the intellectual sophistication and diplomatic skills for such a responsibility.

Pakistan does not have a foreign policy. It has relationships. Three, with America, China and Saudi Arabia, are as steady as an alliance between a benefactor and client. One, with India, is inimical; which is why Army controls India policy. America, Saudi Arabia and China factor in Pakistan, but do not hold India hostage to Islamabad’s interests. However, Pakistan uses India as the bogey through which it can try to massage benefits from friends and sympathy from neutral countries or blocs. Confrontation suits it better than conciliation, domestically and internationally. Many Pakistanis are convinced about the wisdom of peace with India, but they are not strong enough to challenge the cantonment.

Dr Manmohan Singh’s mandate to Krishna was to reduce the “trust deficit”. One wonders how much trust is left after Qureshi has equated Pillai with a terrorist and dismissed Krishna as unprepared and incompetent. Delhi should not respond with hostility. But a little indifference could go a long way.

[shiv]

IDSA Book: Whither Pakistan

eBook download is possible.

Great!!

Needs to join the list on page 1 of each Pacqui thread no?

[chaanakya]

BRF biradars might have noticed that there is a subtle change in the statements emanating from GOI,ND speaking pointedly about official patronage , complicity , meeting of high ranking officials with masterminds , training of terrorist groups by establishment etc and having confirmatory proof from someone who is in unkil's custody. Rana is dangled as future corroborative element.. In short , a concerted effort is now on to debunk the theory of non-state actors. This is perhaps second stage of Indian action on 2611. I don't know whether it stops here or ND gets pigs declared as state sponsoring terror . Madam is accusing pigs of knowing where Os Mama is hiding.KL peanuts is just a lollypop for bursting economy.

[amit]

amit-ji, i interpret it differently. we are poorer because we have pandered to the jackass not for the underlying dynamics, is what i think BC is saying

Boss that is a valid interpretation, I agree.

But one problem with this line of thinking is that we don't know what would have happened if we did not pander the jackass.

The data point to consider here is that TSPA does not want India to pander. TSPA will be most comfortable with a belligerent India. Then half the problems of Jackisthan disappears.

[CRamS]

What are the underlying dynamics to this discussion.

The way I see it is as follows.

1) 3.5 put enormus pressure on the GOI to talk.
2) GOI obliges by talking bout Terror.

That is the dynamic as far as India is concerned. If it some thing else then please educate this unwashed abdul

For those who question what India has lost as a result of MMS's shameless love-making with his TSP brothers: 1) The equivalence between Mumbai & TSP terror in general; and TSP's imaginary grievances; especially its neortic fixation on Kashmir has been established. In other words, the distinction between "global terror" (what the white face from Islamists) and "local terror" has been fine-tuned; "global terror" == unadulterated evil, while "local terror", terror against India == legitimate TSP grievances. Recall, Hilary Madama's dead equal equal that both India & TSP do not pose a threat to the world like Iran does. Man, that is some equivalence that stinks like a skunk; I can only imagine the pain and humilioation of a nationalist Indian journa in the same room as one from TSP when Hilary made drew that crass equivalence. And 2) Now people can spin whatever they want about Jackass's outburst, but by stooping to such a low as to even talk to that pipsqueak, and then blaming our Pillai starting with MMS, once again, India TSP equal equal two errant boys has been firmly established. In other words, India must not talk about official TSP involvement in terror from now on. That becomes "hardline". But of course, the whites can endlessly talk about TSPA/ISI knowing where Osama is etc etc. Thoo.

[Lalmohan]

amit-ji, deeply like your new name jackisthan!
however, i dont see how the problem dissapears - if we are belligerent, they are coherent and belligerent. if we have chai biskoot and stall, they are incoherent and belligerent
the core issue is belligerence (i wish there was a k word for that)

[amit]

amit-ji, deeply like your new name jackisthan!
however, i dont see how the problem dissapears - if we are belligerent, they are coherent and belligerent. if we have chai biskoot and stall, they are incoherent and belligerent
the core issue is belligerence (i wish there was a k word for that)

Lalmohan ji,

The problem will disappear only when Jackisthan gives birth to small little Jackisthans who will be easier to corral and trained to fight with each other. What we need to do is ensure Jackisthan gets pregnant. And for that we need to adopt a strategy which does not interfere with the love-making.

[Gerard]

Pakistan city tense after 'blaspheming' Christians shot