Managing Pakistan's failure

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A_Gupta
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by A_Gupta »

We can create our own BRF Index I think, relying on such measures as mentioned by Shiv and RajeshA.

To the list, I'd like to add (if the data is available)
1. %age unemployment/underemployment among males 18-45 age group
2. Males 18-45 age group as %age of the total population

The above 2 measure the potential pool of troublemakers/revolutionaries/jihadis/criminals.

Then I'd like to add something to do with unequal income and asset distribution.
1. Gini coefficient of income distribution
2. Gini coefficient of asset distribution (this simply may not be available :( )
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ramana »

So will you take the lead? And set up the process. Will get some volunteers to help in compling the index.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by A_Gupta »

Will do. I'm thinking of a multiply-owned, publicly accessible Google Docs spreadsheet as the primary document. Will lay out a template and share. I assume we'll have some secure way of exchanging gmail IDs so that the volunteers can be set up as owners of the document.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ramana »

Please follow-up the BR Index discussion in this new thread:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... =24&t=5607
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RamaY »

Once you have the data, I can run some modeling tools and get us a score card ;)
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

RamaY wrote:Once you have the data, I can run some modeling tools and get us a score card ;)
I have put some data on there. Will add from time to time
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Amazing! The media people are reading this thread and writing beautiful articles. It's on Yahoo.in and may disappear so I'm posting in full:

http://in.news.yahoo.com/columnist/niti ... annot-make
The call General Kayani cannot make
July 20, 2010

Imagine that General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani wakes up one fine morning and decides that the Talibanisation of his country now risked destroying the military establishment that nurtured it since 1947. The militant groups that the army had used to attack India and Afghanistan on the cheap were not only creating trouble for Pakistan around the world, but had wrecked Pakistani society and its economy. General Kayani can tolerate all that, but reckons he will soon have to choose be-tween cutting them down to size or joining their bandwagon, perhaps as their "amir-ul-momineen." Imagine that he chooses the former option, if only to con-tinue enjoying the "al-Faida" that has come the Pakistani army's way since 9/11.

"Get Pasha on the line," he barks at his orderly. Lieutenant-General Ahmad Shuja Pasha, chief of the Agency That Should Not Be Named, picks up the phone from his well-appointed office in the unmarked building near Islamabad's Aabpara market.

"Pasha, shut them all down, and this is an order." General Kayani doesn't stop for pleasantries or preamble, fearing that the ever-reasonable Pasha will find ways to dissuade him.

"Sir, yes sir! And what then, sir?" Pasha asks. Kayani has known Pasha long enough to know this was not a rhetorical question.

How will the Pakistani government -- which can't even collect taxes, electric-ity and water bills from anyone who refuses to pay them -- demobilise hundreds of thousands of functionally illiterate, violent, combat-hardened and thoroughly radi-calised young men? The civilian political leadership, bureaucracy and police sim-ply do not have the capacity, competence and power to put anyone other than low-ranking jihadi leaders under arrest, that too temporarily. The only institution that has the prerequisites necessary to take on the jihadi groups is the Pakistan army.

Those on the margins are likely to explore alternatives to martyrdom, but the hard core of the jihadi firmament won't give in without a bloody fight.

***

Forty-year-old Brigadier Adnan, tasked to dismantle and neutralise a jihadi hub in South Punjab, tugs at his beard. He has deep misgivings about the mission he has been charged with, even as he gathers his officers for the operational brief-ing. As he explains how they will take out the militant headquarters and such, he sees that most of his subordinates have puzzled looks on their faces. Finally, the brigade-major, an energetic 25-year old infantryman, speaks up. "Sir, why are we targeting these boys?"

"Because, uh, they are putting Pakistan in danger."

"How sir? They are only fighting against the Amrika, the Israel and the India. They are only doing what we should. They are doing it because our Crore Com-manders have decided that al-Faida is more important than the real mission. And sir, you do know that our men watch television."

Brigadier Adnan gives his beard another tug. This was not going to be easy.

***

2000 militants surrendered in one week, and it fell to Colonel Bashir to deal with them. They had been lodged in a hurriedly erected camp outside the village for identification, debriefing and triage. If his job was not difficult enough, the bloody Americans wanted to poke their noses into his business. Their spies were everywhere. Yet he knew his problem was the easy one - the really wicked prob-lem would begin when these boys went home to their towns and villages and fig-ured out there was nothing for them to do there. Some would find ad hoc employ-ment with the local feudal landlord, who could use their special talents. Most, however, would do -- what? Other than working the farm for the landlord, there was little to keep them occupied, much less employed.

Colonel Bashir was not even thinking about their minds. Would minds, once radicalised, ever shrink back to their original state?

***

Now you know why General Kayani will never give such an order in real life. The Pakistani state and its society simply does not have what it takes to dismantle, demobilise and de-radicalise the hundreds of thousands of militants that operate in that country.

In a 2007 study on militant recruitment in Pakistan, C Christine Fair, now as-sistant professor at Georgetown University's Center for Peace and Security Studies notes: "Limited evidence suggests that both public school and madrasah students tend to support jihad, tanzeems, and war with India, and are more intolerant toward Pakistan's minorities and women. Thus, if Ethan Bueno de Mesquita's model is correct, creating educational and employment opportunities may not put an end to militancy because tanzeems can recruit from lower-quality groups. In the long term, however, interventions of this kind may diminish the quality of terror pro-duced, rendering tanzeems a mere nuisance rather than a menace to regional secu-rity. This would be a positive development."

That would be a positive development, yes, but, as she points out in the very next sentence, "(the) problem with school reform and employment generation ef-forts is not only that they may be beyond Islamabad's capability and resolve but also that there may be no feasible scope for U.S. or international efforts to per-suade Islamabad to make meaningful reforms on its own."

That's the bad news. The worse news is that this is going to get a whole lot worse, as the population grows, the education system continues to radicalise minds, the media reinforces prejudices and the military establishment exploits geo-political opportunities to stay on the same dangerous course.

In the face of this grim reality, the antics of the motley bunch of slick political operators that pass off as the Pakistani government are tragicomic. Politicians like Yusuf Raza Gilani and Shah Mahmood Qureshi mask their impotence by outrageous grandstanding intended to score points with the military-jihadi com-plex.

It is a good idea for India to engage the various players in Pakistan to manage -- to the extent that it can be managed -- the fallout of the turmoil across its north-western borders; so, too, to engage all of Pakistan's external sponsors. Even so, neither India nor the rest of the world can escape the consequences of Pakistan's transformation. Driven as much by strategy as by sentiment, Prime Minister Man-mohan Singh is genuinely committed to leaving a legacy of good relations with Pakistan. Don't you feel sorry for him?

Nitin Pai is founder & fellow for geopolitics at the Takshashila Institution and editor of Pragati - The Indian National Interest Review, a publication on strategic affairs, public policy and governance. He blogs at The Acorn and is active on Twitter too.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Beautifully put by Nitin Pai

"The Pakistani state and its society simply does not have what it takes to dismantle, demobilise and de-radicalise the hundreds of thousands of militants that operate in that country."

That is why the Pakistani train is unstoppable and bound for the big crash!
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Pratyush »

It is the aftermath of the crash that we are trying to manage in this thread. :twisted:
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by rohitvats »

Manish_Sharma wrote:<SNIP>How will the Pakistani government -- which can't even collect taxes, electric-ity and water bills from anyone who refuses to pay them -- demobilise hundreds of thousands of functionally illiterate, violent, combat-hardened and thoroughly radi-calised young men? The civilian political leadership, bureaucracy and police sim-ply do not have the capacity, competence and power to put anyone other than low-ranking jihadi leaders under arrest, that too temporarily. The only institution that has the prerequisites necessary to take on the jihadi groups is the Pakistan army.

Those on the margins are likely to explore alternatives to martyrdom, but the hard core of the jihadi firmament won't give in without a bloody fight.<SNIP>
Manish_Sharma...a thousand thanx for posting this article.

Guess, I could not have asked my questions at a more opportune moment....this article clearly sums up the fact (from a layman's perspective) that the Islamism genie is well and truly out of the bottle.....and this genie has now take the shape of a frankenstein...which in due course of time is going to grow big enough to chew up the holiest of holy in the Pakland - TSPA.

The recent news about SSG Commandos going against the decision of their CO of attacking the Lal Masjid and the fatwa against burying the bodies of soldiers who died fighting the Taliban..provide a glimpse into the evolving scenario at the lowest level of Pak society strata...

Kashmir and Afganistan are going to be side shows in this drama for control of Pakistan....Question is - what are the repercussions for India?

TSPA is likely to work towards providing a pound of India's flesh to satiate this monster and delay the inevitable.....and will ask for Kashmir/Afganistan/CAR etc. But if others can resist these pressures and maintain status quo, how will this development pan out internally for TSP?

Any thoughts?Thanx.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Pratyush »

Rohit,

For India they will try to replicate the acts of barbarians after whom they have named their ballistic missiles. Other than that there will not be any consequences.

Will leave out the rest for later.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

A great resource
SSridhar wrote:IDSA Book: Whither Pakistan
eBook download is possible.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

The IDSA book linked above summarizes 3 possible outcomes for Pakistan depending on various events

STABLE PAKISTAN
  • Politics: Constructive
    Radicalisation: Under Control
    Economy: Fairly Stable
    Military: Sidelined
    India: Relations Friendly and
    Cooperative
    Foreign Policy: Balanced
Lebanonisation
  • Politics: Fragmented
    Radicalisation: On Sharp Rise
    Economy: Lack Lustre
    Military: Stronger
    India Relations: Tense
    Foreign Policy: Opportunistic
Implosion
  • Politics: Directionless
    Radicalisation: Very Extreme
    Economy: Unsustainable
    Military Stretched
    India Relations Near Collapse
    Foreign Policy In Disarray
But the parameters I have chosen for predicting Pakistani failure can help us deciding which was Pakistan will go.

All the figures have been taken from http://www.nationmaster.com/index.php

The tables are linked as jpeg images below:

Pakistan has seen 56% increase in population since 1991
(compared to 36% for India)

Pakistan saw a 60% increase in GDP (per capita) since 1996
(India saw 101%)

Public spending on education decreased in Pakistan from 1991-2005
(remained almost the same in India)

Primary school enrolment in Pakistan has shown zero increase in the last decade
(India has shown 20%)

What this means is only what I have been saying for several years now. Pakistan is rapidly creating millions of illiterate Abduls. These things cannot be undone or changed soon. If Pakistan drops everything else and starts attending to these things toady - it wil still be 2030 or later before Pakistan can even begin to reach the levels India has reached - which are still not that good.

And there is one statistic that no demographic indicator will tell you: Illegal firearms in Pakistan: 18 million of them - 10% Pakis own a firearm. This translated s to one in two or three paki males with access to a firearm.

Pakistan has:
  • Overpopulation
    Unemployment
    Illiteracy
    Poor economy
    Islamic radicalism
    Access to firearms
What do you think will happen to Pakistan?

Tables:
1. Population
Image
***********
2.GDP
Image
***********

3. Spending on education
Image
***********

4. Primary school enrolment
Image
A_Gupta
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by A_Gupta »

Shiv,
Great work above!

Right now I think Pakistan may be headed to Lebanonization.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

A_Gupta wrote: Right now I think Pakistan may be headed to Lebanonization.
Agreed. And a little thought experiment tells me that war with India will contribute most of the other factors for "implosion" like "Over stretched military", "economic collapse', and relations with India dead.

That is why I feel that the US (did you listen to that journalists beggathon with Clinton?) is very very firmly asking the army to keep its head down and asking Pakis to talk.

Even then, Lebanonization seems to be a possibility.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Lalmohan »

rate of growth of GDP per head plotted against some sort of political stability index might prove very informative, ofcourse one will need a few comparator nations...
ramana
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ramana »

Short of war with India what factors will lead TSP to implode?
Recall Rajaram was the first to term it Peaceful Implosion of Pakistan(PIP).

Lebanonisation --> Implosion

Politics: Fragmented --> Directionless
Radicalisation: On Sharp Rise --> Very Extreme
Economy: Lack Lustre --> Unsustainable
Military: Stronger --> Stretched
India Relations: Tense --> Near Collapse
Foreign Policy: Opportunistic --> In Disarray


1) If TTP increases its acts inside Pakjab it is an indicator.
2) If Hafiz Saeed et al increase their sermons its an indicator. On the other hand if he gets handed over to India its an indicator in the other side. So best thing is to keep asking for Saeed to ensure he won't get handed over!
3) Economy is already unsustainable without US baksheesh.
4) Military needs to be engaged in badlands.
5) India relations will collapse if there is change in Indian govt
6) FP is already in disarray as it cannot deal with contradictions of Islamic state and obligations of a Westhpahialn nation state.

1, 3 & 6 are already happening.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Somethings to keep eyes open for would be:

Army
-----
  • Insubordination within the Army, especially if it comes to military operations against Jihadists
  • Soldiers allowing themselves to be captured without resistance by the Taliban
  • Soldiers leaving military to join the Jihadists
  • Freelance work by ex-Army men, especially if it deals in kidnappings, extortion
  • Islamic credentials of the first 3 tiers of the Army
  • The salaries of the lowest two ranks of soldiers w.r.t. inflation
As and when the Army is forced to undertake operations in FATA, Pukhtunkhwa-Khyber, South Pakjab, etc., the above tensions will grow.

The more USA can trace back the roots of various Jihadi elements arraigned against it to these areas and push TSPA to undertake operations, the better it is. North Waziristan is a case in point. Secondly, an increase in drone attacks also increases the hate towards the Pakistani Army.

Another set of factors to measure the advance of Talibanism would be to plot geographically where there are
  • No Girl Schools
  • No Barber Shops
  • No Sale of CDs and DVDs
As such a measurable quantity to measure would be
  • How many Girl Schools have been closed or destroyed
  • How many Barber Shops have been closed or destroyed
  • How many CD shops have been closed or destroyed
Another measure is of course the number of attacks on minorities - on Hindus, on Christians, on Ahmediyas, on Shias, on Sufis.

Some statistics published by Human Rights Organisations can be useful In fact one could either directly or indirectly (through requests to Amnesty or HRW) request the HRCP to collect other statistics also. At the moment, they collect only
  • Burnings
  • Corporal Punishment
  • Death Penalty
  • Domestic Violance
  • Kidnapping
  • Killings
  • Sectarian Violance
  • Sexual Harrassment
  • Suicide
Side note :
Either the Taliban would start cracking down on the cable operators, TV networks, and CD shops, or they could even close an eye. Probably those who smuggle and distribute Bollywood Movie CDs and DVDs into Pakistan would have to give some cut to the Taliban at some point. Don't know if it would work!
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Ambar »

ramana wrote: Lebanonisation --> Implosion

Politics: Fragmented --> Directionless
Radicalisation: On Sharp Rise --> Very Extreme
Economy: Lack Lustre --> Unsustainable
Military: Stronger --> Stretched
India Relations: Tense --> Near Collapse
Foreign Policy: Opportunistic --> In Disarray

Have they not met all the criteria for 'Lebanonization' if not exceeded them?

Politics in Pakistan has been fractured,fragmented and directionless.

Radicalisation - They have surpassed radicalization levels of every Islamic nation barring Somalia/Afghanistan. Mullas,Mosque and Madrassas are the secondary axis of power after its military.

Military - They have been the puppet masters since 50s.The military in Lebanon is answerable to its civilian government,in Pak it is the other way around.
India relations -> Has been tense and near collapse and will remain at these levels for a long time to come.
Foreign policy -> India centric and aid centric.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shravan »

RajeshA wrote:Either the Taliban would start cracking down on the cable operators, TV networks, and CD shops, or they could even close an eye. Probably those who smuggle and distribute Bollywood Movie CDs and DVDs into Pakistan would have to give some cut to the Taliban at some point. Don't know if it would work!
So taliban are very much active in Lahore. They have attacked CD plaza twice in the last 20 days.


11 hurt in two blasts at Lahore CD market
June 27, 2010

Six injured in two Lahore blasts
18 Jul, 2010

We are thankful to traders of Hall Road who have decided to discontinue ***** CDs business. The government must stop obscenity and do not test our patience.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

shravan wrote:So taliban are very much active in Lahore. They have attacked CD plaza twice in the last 20 days.

11 hurt in two blasts at Lahore CD market
June 27, 2010
The president of the Hall Road Traders’ Association said that most traders had informed him that they had received threatening phone calls from unknown militants.
“There are 10,000 shops on Hall Road and around 50,000 people visit the market every day,” Dr Haider Ashraf, Operation Superintendent Police of Civil Lines Division, told The Express Tribune.
However, the traders’ leader said that they would not be cowed down by militants.
shravan wrote:Six injured in two Lahore blasts
18 Jul, 2010
We are thankful to traders of Hall Road who have decided to discontinue ***** CDs business. The government must stop obscenity and do not test our patience.
A text message was sent by a group called Tehrik Difa-i-Nazaria Pakistan to some media organisations a few minutes before the twin blasts,
Thanks shravan

This is relevant here in this thread, as "CD shop closures" can be a good metric!
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Is there a timeline for this implosion, even a vague one 8-10 or 20 years? I am continuously seeing on " Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc... " thread they are being fed F-16s, Harpoons, BVR missiles, artillery and the latest is Predator drones. I mean khan and see-eye-A can't be such ulloos that they are giving this state of art stuff which may end up in hands of some new Talib govt. headed by Aytollah k the 2nd?

And Indian Govt. watching silently all this happening. Not only watching but financing part of it by buying C-17s and mrca etc.?

Something doesn't add up :?:

Plus the khan and UK on the verge of bankruptcy can't imagine to go on pumping in billions every year to save this growing "Dharti ka Bojh" porkiland?
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Manish_Sharma »

rohitvats wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:<SNIP>How will the Pakistani government -- which can't even collect taxes, electric-ity and water bills from anyone who refuses to pay them -- demobilise hundreds of thousands of functionally illiterate, violent, combat-hardened and thoroughly radi-calised young men? The civilian political leadership, bureaucracy and police sim-ply do not have the capacity, competence and power to put anyone other than low-ranking jihadi leaders under arrest, that too temporarily. The only institution that has the prerequisites necessary to take on the jihadi groups is the Pakistan army.

Those on the margins are likely to explore alternatives to martyrdom, but the hard core of the jihadi firmament won't give in without a bloody fight.<SNIP>
Manish_Sharma...a thousand thanx for posting this article.

Guess, I could not have asked my questions at a more opportune moment....this article clearly sums up the fact (from a layman's perspective) that the Islamism genie is well and truly out of the bottle.....and this genie has now take the shape of a frankenstein...which in due course of time is going to grow big enough to chew up the holiest of holy in the Pakland - TSPA.

The recent news about SSG Commandos going against the decision of their CO of attacking the Lal Masjid and the fatwa against burying the bodies of soldiers who died fighting the Taliban..provide a glimpse into the evolving scenario at the lowest level of Pak society strata...

Kashmir and Afganistan are going to be side shows in this drama for control of Pakistan....Question is - what are the repercussions for India?

TSPA is likely to work towards providing a pound of India's flesh to satiate this monster and delay the inevitable.....and will ask for Kashmir/Afganistan/CAR etc. But if others can resist these pressures and maintain status quo, how will this development pan out internally for TSP?

Any thoughts?Thanx.
You are welcome Rohit. See all the garus here are confidant of absorbing porki population within india and secularise them. While the very para you have chosen to hightlight sends shivers down my spine thinking of letting these fanatics be part of our country. All the garus may disagree on many terms but on this all are one.

I would rather than porkiland survive suffer and and we raise a 2 million army to seal the border. Then at opportune time explode 315 warheads on their heads to put them out of misery. After this a 10 year sanction/condemnation will follow but if we play the cards right we will have expanded indicland back to Gwadar port. Our own muslims will stay insulated from these Talibs and grow with rest of nation. Obliteration is the only answer to misery suffered/created by porkiland.

Can't imagine the oil money of arabs financing wahabbasing the whole unified india for next 50 years, results will be disasterous.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ramana »

Manish_Sharma wrote:Is there a timeline for this implosion, even a vague one 8-10 or 20 years?

{The purpose of this thread is to see the indicators to get to that timeframe}

I am continuously seeing on " Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc... " thread they are being fed F-16s, Harpoons, BVR missiles, artillery and the latest is Predator drones. I mean khan and see-eye-A can't be such ulloos that they are giving this state of art stuff which may end up in hands of some new Talib govt. headed by Aytollah k the 2nd?

{Could be case of propping up 4) Military to strengthen it to keep the state from imploding}

And Indian Govt. watching silently all this happening. Not only watching but financing part of it by buying C-17s and mrca etc.?

{GOI might be doing what it does best for its own reasons.}

Something doesn't add up :?:

Plus the khan and UK on the verge of bankruptcy can't imagine to go on pumping in billions every year to save this growing "Dharti ka Bojh" porkiland?

{That is why all those talks/valks charade to let others carry the burden.}

We all are learning. No one is more expert than the others.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Karna_A »

Manish_Sharma wrote: I would rather than porkiland survive suffer and and we raise a 2 million army to seal the border
The strength of Indian Army under the circustances should be fixed percentage of population. As the population increases the army should increase. Even retired Army men act as glue that cement the Indic culture.

The territorial reserve army and Home guards need to be armed, trained and made ready for rear guard actions.

On another note, an Indian guru had predicted in 1983 that Communism would have a sudden death, Islamism would have a violent death and Capitalism would have a slow death in that order and then East will rise(China?, India?).
It was unbelievable that time. But it is now 1.5 correct, 1.5 more to go.
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

From TSP Thread
Karna_A wrote:
Hari Seldon wrote:Wonder why papistan has masterfully restrained its hand from more spectacular attacks inside Yindia in the 26/11 mold.
There are a number of reasons for that.

(a) TSP cannot execute a major attack on India without direct involvement of ISI(training, logistics, money, communication)
(b) 26/11 like attacks were done before. Parliament attack was similar. However, it was on unarmed civilians and the barbarity was nauseating which made it stand out.
(c) KSA restrained TSP as it gave a bad name to global ummah.
(d) Unkil made clear that state involvement must end or funds stop and together with (a) makes it very difficult to execute an attack.
(e) Next time, India may take a random action also like taking out few ships of TSPN, which may lead to all out war. Death by thousand cuts may result in decapitation of TSP.
(f) Attacks like 26/11 in broader sense help India as hardliners get better grip on power than WKK.
(g) Any attack on major places in India means WKKs, foreigners as well as IMs are casualties together with aaam aadmi which actually unites India.
Usually we talk a lot about Pakistan's 3.5 Friends, but we usually only deal with their 2 Friends - USA and China.

On BRF, I am not sure whether we have explored the Saudi Arabia angle.

Is it possible to influence Pakistan by using Saudi services, giving arguments, perhaps like
a) There are 180 million Muslims in India, and if Pakistan conducts terrorist acts, then it increases the level of insecurity of Indian Muslims. This is not a threat, merely a statement of fact. May be Muslims in India can impress the fact on the Saudis.
b) If Saudi Arabia does not put a stop to Pakistan-sponsored terrorist activities in India, India could increase the amount of nuclear cooperation with Iran.
c) If Saudi Arabia does not put a stop to Pakistan-sponsored terrorist activities, then Saudi Oil Tankers may find a more hostile environment in the shipping lanes.
d) If Saudi Arabia does not help, India would start providing all possible help to all detractors of the House of Saud.

What India should do is to push the Saudis to put a leash on the Pakistani Army! It need not be done only or initially using sticks! India should first use carrots including the many business opportunities possible.

just some thoughts!
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

One Journalist calls for the Dismantling of Pakistan!

India Too Complacent About Pakistan Complicity in Mumbai Attacks by Michael Hughes: The Huffington Post
India has stated they would not participate in full blown official diplomatic discussions with Pakistan until the extremist groups in Pakistan are fully dismantled, which would entail the dismantling of the Pakistani state. Perhaps it's time for India to try and convince the U.S. a dismantling of this sort is the best remedy possible.
Manishw
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Manishw »

Manish_sharma wrote
[quote]You are welcome Rohit. See all the garus here are confidant of absorbing porki population within india and secularise them. While the very para you have chosen to hightlight sends shivers down my spine thinking of letting these fanatics be part of our country. All the garus may disagree on many terms but on this all are one.[unquote]

I absolutely second that and such words are IMO sealing the end of indic civilization for ever. :(
RajeshA
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Manishw ji,

Welcome to BRF!
NikhilB
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by NikhilB »

Liked the idea of tracking "progress" of pakiland by measuring their performance against metric or KPI over period of time (say, 1,3, 5 years)! This will allow to check that they are indeed meeting their destined 72 !

We have some tangible or visble metrics as outlined by Shiv above:
1. % rise in population
2. % rise in GDP
3. % rise in unemployment
4. % drop in school enrollment
5. % inflation
6. Social indicatros such as mortality, health etc.

As found out by RajeshA, some other invisbile but extremely important metrics such as "No of CD shops closed" are worth checking:
1. No of CD shops closed - by region
2. No of Girls school closes/destroyed - by region
3. No of railways closed (just recently they shut down 6 railways due to inefficiency and losses)
4. Average salary hike of lower grade abdul soliders compared to inflation.
5. Average salary hike of lower grade abdul soliders compared to salary offered at equal risk job by taliban
6. Performance of state controlled PSUs like recent sell of steel company
7. % rise in abduls in age group 15-30 unemployed, unmarried = likely to be talibanised
8. rise in TV shows popularity hating US, India, Isreal (~ popularity levels of zahid hamid (PBUH))
9. No of riots / strikes etc for trivial issues such as draw cartoon etc
10. No of websites closed for blaphemy
11. Most imp - continuity of present trends of "porkistan" - compared to availability of women in normal social life !

etc etc.
RajeshA
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

Ajatshatru wrote:
On BRF, I am not sure whether we have explored the Saudi Arabia angle.
Often heard from the last few decades in India that Saudi Arabia liberally funds madrassas in India to spread the wahhabi ideology amongst IMs in India.
Well that too can be used as a leverage! A better policy would be to shut it down completely!
Pulikeshi
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Pulikeshi »

RajeshA wrote:One Journalist calls for the Dismantling of Pakistan!

India Too Complacent About Pakistan Complicity in Mumbai Attacks by Michael Hughes: The Huffington Post
India has stated they would not participate in full blown official diplomatic discussions with Pakistan until the extremist groups in Pakistan are fully dismantled, which would entail the dismantling of the Pakistani state. Perhaps it's time for India to try and convince the U.S. a dismantling of this sort is the best remedy possible.
Boss,

I may not be the brightest muli that the subcontinent produced, but to my simple mind, it seems that US and India have agreed to implement a Marshall plan before the war is won.
RajeshA
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

India imports ~26% of our crude oil requirements from Saudi Arabia. I am not sure India can really use that much leverage with Saudi Arabia.
RamaY
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RamaY »

Is Talibanization of Pakistan in Indian Interests?

In last few months there is increased strategic-discourse on the Af-Pak conundrum given Obama administration’s determination to roll-out all overt military presence from Afghanistan. Former US Ambassador’s article in Indian media called for partition of Afghanistan giving de facto control of Sothern-Afghanistan to Pakistani supported Haqquani (the good Taliban) group, while retaining the Northern-Afghanistan under the current Karzai administration with western help. This strategy also calls for focused air cross-border campaign against the Taliban/AQ networks in Sothern-Afghanistan extending into Pakistani NWFP. This strategy essentially recognizes the ideological and organizational integration of Afghani-Taliban with Pakistani intelligence and armed forces organizations, given that the decision on who should run Southern-Afghanistan is entrusted with Pakistan Army and ISI.

A further extrapolation of this reality brings us to the subject of this article – Talibanization of Pakistan. Given the real or perceived victories against the world super power USSR and the sole power USA by a Islamic Mercenary force under a Jihadi call, it is highly likely that other associated parties also see this as a potent strategy to extend their vested interests. Given their ideological, organizational, and logistical integration with Taliban and AQ forces, the most-religious sections of Pakistani Armed Forces and ISI might like to adopt this strategy and emulate Taliban success within and without Pakistan. These sections of Pakistani establishment will find supporting space, structures, and logistics in the newly created Pashtunistan area blurring the political and sovereign borders of erstwhile Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Once this initiative gains traction it will not take more than 2-3 years for the entire Pakistan nation to come under Taliban control, given the social, religious and logistical support system created for these very elements in Pakistan for the past three decades by various civil and military administrations. There might be sporadic, half-hearted, and non-military resistance from the RAPE (Rich Anglicized Pakistani Elite) to Taliban advancement into Pakistan heart lands but it might not change the direction or the timeline of Pakistan’s Talibanization program once key sections of Pakistan Army make their switch. The USA (and others) may resist the transformation of Pakistani crown jewels (nuclear arsenal) into Wahhabi nuclear assets; but there is very little chance of Pakistan losing these assets given the very unlikely invasion by USA (in search of WMD) or its allies.

In summary a new Islamic Talibani state of Pakistan (Land of Pure) is expected to be created in Indian sub-continent sometime between 2012 and 2015, essentially due to the world’s sole super power’s (USA) failed strategic vision and corrupt military strategy. By virtue of being the civilizational, political, geographical pivot of this region, India has paid the highest price for this western-perfidy in the name of geopolitics. In the past sixty years, India paid dearly for this western (especially UK and USA) misadventure with millions of lives (partition of India), countless terrorist attacks, and suppressed economic prosperity (anywhere between 2-5% of GDP growth).

So the big question for Indian strategic community is – Is Talibanization of Pakistan in Indian Interests? How these developments of geopolitical dimensions in its extended region influence its internal and external policy? Let us analyze -

Geopolitics
Since its formulation, Pakistan relied heavily on external powers to sustain its [sic] identity, and achieve a psychological parity with its larger neighbor India. In its efforts Pakistan was supported politically, technologically, militarily, and economically by its 3.5 friends, namely USA, KSA, PRC as full partners and UK and JPN as partial partners. It is a well-known and well documented fact how each one of these patrons helped shape the Af-Pak region to achieve the current state of religious-fanaticism, social-militarization, lack of human-dignity, and mercenary-jihadism. These external powers have been sustaining Pakistan to undermine the other regional and global (former) powers namely Russia, Iran, and India by funding it more than US$10-20B every year on one or other account.

What would be the geopolitical value-proposition of Af-Pak region in the advent of Islamic Talibani state of Pakistan (ITP)? The new ITP will continue to offer its services to external players for monetary and military goodies but will lose its politico-ideological connection with certain patrons. Given USA’s continued presence and influence in Northern-Afghanistan and improved strategic-partnership with India, ITP may lose its geopolitical value to USA. ITP’s relationship with UK and JPN are highly correlated with its alignment with USA and thus will receive similar treatment. In such a scenario the financial support Pakistan received in the past two decades will not continue into the future. PRC might be tempted to support ITP to counter Indian raise in the short-term but any PRC-ITP relationship will lose its potential as Indo-PRC trade relationship dwarfs any geopolitical gains PRC might achieve thru ITP. In addition to that ITP’s jihadi vigor might create new internal-dynamics in PRC’s Xinjiang province.

Thus the geopolitical value proposition of ITP will diminish as this region takes an overtly religious-mercenary dimension bringing half-century long shadow over Indian interests.

Economy
If Taliban rule of Afghanistan is any indicator, ITP will fail to nurture key policy and governance structures that are instrumental in achieving economic prosperity in modern sense. It is highly likely that the present feudal structures of Pakistan will evolve into warlord-like structures accumulating national wealth into very few pockets. Majority of the nation will remain poor and inefficient. ITP may be able to sell some of its services to potential geopolitical customers but will fail to become a reckoning force economically.

The present near-zero trade partnership between India and Pakistan turns out to be a boon in disguise for India as there will be zero impact on Indian economy due to ITP’s transformation.

Nuclear War
This is a well debated issue. At present Pakistan possesses anywhere between 70-90 nuclear warheads and the means (missiles or aircraft) to deliver them. Pakistan’s stated nuclear policy is to use WMD in the event of a significant loss of territory or military capability; without defining what that significance level is.

Irrespective of its formulation, ITP will continue to have this capability as it will be near impossible to sweep of a nation of ITP’s size and population. A future ITP will also would maintain the same nuclear posture in order to maintain the ambiguity and keep the pressure on its foes, mainly India. Since the past and current administrations of Pakistan behaved no differently than a hypothetical Taliban nation; a fanatical religious world-view, terrorism as state-policy, and suppression of religious minorities there will be little change in terms of the nuclear posture from a future ITP with regards to India.

As far as India is concerned, formation of ITP would remove the veil of non-state actors from the nuclear equation. Any nuclear attack (dirty or pure) will be viewed as an act of war and will invoke a existential response from India. In fact ITP would have lesser incentive to go nuclear against India than nuclear-blackmailing Iran, or Israel or West or even KSA to gain enhanced political and economic incentives and establish itself as the undisputed leader of Islamic-Ummah.

Refugee Issue
There is a very high probability of a refugee crisis developing in western Indian borders during late transformation phase of ITP. It is highly probable that the refugee population is of two types – The RAPE class and religious minorities. Based on past behavioral patterns, the RAPE class will receive overwhelming support from Indian WKK-brigade (Wagha Kandle Kissers) wile the religious minorities will be seen as an economic and social burden on India by the Indian ruling class.

Based on Bangladesh freedom movement and Talibanization of Afghanistan experiences, It is safe to estimate that at least 15-20 million refugees will try to cross into India thru its western borders. These people will receive significant opposition and harassment from bordering Indian states Gujarat, Rajastan, Punjab, and Haryana, whereas there is fair chance that Kashmir valley separatists welcome some of these refuges on religious grounds, in a tactical move to future maneuvers. India’s internal political fissures will be exploited by WKKs in all the border states to enhance their vested interests.

It is in the best interests of India to seal off Indian borders and contain any future refugee situation to af-pak region. One strategy is to support internal independence movements so the refugees see little need to move to India. Balochistan and Sindh regions offer great value in this regard, provided India offers generous financial and water resources under UN auspices. An alternative, yet risky, strategy would be for India to use UN to occupy a small area within ITP and declare it as a demilitarized zone (DMZ) for refugees.

In all the possibility an impending refugee crisis will be a game changer vis-à-vis India. It is in India’s best interests that the Indian defense and political leadership prepares a well-rounded strategy to contain and support ITP refugee flow to serve its agenda.

Terrorism
The root of terrorism emanating from Pakistan lies in Pakistan’s identity crisis and jealousy. Pakistan created and supported various terror outfits in its borders to hurt India in the past two decades. The advent of ITP will not change the ground situation in any way. ITP will become an overt terror state not only in Indian eyes but also for the international community. This will help India in removing the excuse of “non-state actors” and allow it to take suitable military action.

A possible side effect of the transformation of ITP can impact the Kashmir valley in Jammu and Kashmir. The Kashmir separatists might get emboldened by the perceived [sic] Islamic victory across the border might demand either unification with ITP or implementation of Sharia in the valley. A logical approach to this issue would be to repeal Article 370, which gives special status to the state of Jammu & Kashmir, as the whole JK issue becomes meaningless with the formation of ITP.

At national level, talibanization of Pakistan will open new opportunities for India. Creation of ITP will convince the Indian public on the dangers of Islamic fundamentalism once and for all. This will enable the Government of India to develop suitable anti-terror laws and civic infrastructure such as special intelligence services, courts, and paramilitary forces. If done properly such an initiative will have many positive side effects such as lower crime rate, better international credit rating etc.,

Role of Religion
People born and die, whereas the religion lives on and evolves/transforms. At least two generations of Afghans lived thru the current geopolitical game with no hope in the horizon. Similarly India has seen three generations of Pakistanis born and died in the past 60 years, but peaceful-coexistence is still a mirage in Indian subcontinent. Pakistani society’s hatred and jealousy for any/every Indian value has increased many fold in the same period. Indian Muslims must make note of this in evolving their faith to suite the modern values of religious pluralism, respect for women’s-rights, and focus on scientific reasoning in life.

Indian Muslims received their faith from the desert lands of west-Asia. It is time for Indian Muslim community to return the favor to Islamic-Ummah by offering an alternative perspective on faith, life, and environment where Islamic-Ummah can be at peace with itself and others. Indiam Muslims should demand a seat at Ummah’s high-table where they can explain their brothers and sisters the difference between religion and once history, culture and heritage and that blind adherence to foreign culture, history and heritage removes the individual from their environment destroying the very spiritualism that religion claims to improve.

Conclusion
In summary the overall political, military, and terror posture of Pakistan will not change in the event of overt talibanization of Pakistani society. On the other hand it will open up new opportunities for Indian political leadership to get out of the geopolitical shackles of Pakistan and continue with its national resurgence. This development also provides a rare opportunity for Indian Muslims to lead the world Muslim community by balancing between religion and local culture/heritage.

Image

Above table summarizes various influence factors, their weightages and threat probabilities with respect to current state of Pakistan and a possible ITP. As we can see the overall threat to Indian national interests is reduced by nearly 15%, which is equal to complete disappearance of Pakistani terrorism.

Now it is up to Indian political leadership to plan ahead and come up with suitable strategies to benefit from this once in a millennium opportunity. Such a vision would require clarity of national purpose, self-confidence, and efficient use of national resources. The world community is observing India with keen interest and lots of hope.

{Edited: Removed reference to Indic Civilization}
Last edited by RamaY on 21 Jul 2010 18:31, edited 3 times in total.
shiv
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by shiv »

Manish_Sharma wrote: See all the garus here are confidant of absorbing porki population within india and secularise them.
Which garus? Where? Who has said this.

If you post bullshit as a starting sentence - anything you write after that will sound like the truth. Compared to your first sentence the rest of your paragraph is like Quran. You have a viewpoint. You want to keep Pakis out and kill them with nukes? That is a valid viewpoint. Why do you need to take a potshot at someone else?

All the garus here? Who the faque are you talking about?
kubhamanyu
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by kubhamanyu »

Pulikeshi wrote: Boss,

I may not be the brightest muli that the subcontinent produced, but to my simple mind, it seems that US and India have agreed to implement a Marshall plan before the war is won.
How is that?
RajeshA
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by RajeshA »

RamaY ji,

that is a beautiful summarization. You know how tables work! ;-)

There is potential for a copy and paste by various BRF lurkers from the world of media, think tanks, and Internet warriors. I have a little request. Your pointers to Abrahamic religions, may decrease the propaganda value and reach of your piece. The "Indic Civilization" part with "Hindu-India" emerging though being perfectly okay, could work as a switch, putting off many of your readers, accustomed to the secular narrative.

JMTs
ramana
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by ramana »

RamaY, Good article. Hope you also start blogging to get it wider views. Another point is current TSP is very anti-India and the situation wont change after Taliban takeover. What will change is US currently supports TSP and will have no reason to continue that support even after Taliban takeover.

And in terms of kabila formulation if Taliban takeover happens the guards will be put in their right place at the fence and not in the inner councils of power.
Manishw
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Manishw »

RamaY Ji Superb piece.
RajeshA thanks a ton for welcome.
Atri
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Post by Atri »

Awesome job, RamaY ji... :)
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