Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2010

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ramana
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by ramana »

Its good article and states the Indian case very well especially when Indian press is full of RPIs who agree with Qureshi.

Also how would the TSP imbecility comeout but for the talks!

and interesting observation!
India must awaken to the reality that Pakistan's army chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani smells blood and thinks he can knock India out of the box in Afghanistan and he certainly isn't going to wait for the trust talks to come to fruition. The U.S. desperately needs Pakistan - evidenced by the mad cash the U.S. has dished out - and Kayani knows this and is going to make sure Pakistan has a foothold in Kabul when the dust settles. It's a good wager the wise (guy) General isn't going to let a minor issue impede progress, including the fact that Pakistan's entire armed forces have been implicated in a terror plot.

If India continues down too diplomatic a road they are going to lose out in Kabul as the U.S. continues down the path of least resistance until it finds a feasible remedy. India has stated they would not participate in full blown official diplomatic discussions with Pakistan until the extremist groups in Pakistan are fully dismantled, which would entail the dismantling of the Pakistani state. Perhaps it's time for India to try and convince the U.S. a dismantling of this sort is the best remedy possible.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by A_Gupta »

^^^^
I think the Pakistani military is about to score one of its tactically brilliant self-goals.

Pakistan gaining "control" of Afghanistan is a necessary step in the Talibanization of Pakistan. If Pakistan succeeds in getting Afghanistan under its thumb, then Afghanistan will rapidly reTalibanize. Once Afghanistan is reTalibanized, the Taliban will have an unassailable base of operations to work to Talibanize Pakistan.

Kiyani & co probably think they can control Afghan Taliban to use against India. Given that the Pakistani Taliban are already on the warpath against Kiyani & co, how long will it be before the Afghan Taliban also become so? Rather than being under Pakistan Army's thumb, they will rather put Pakistan under their own control. They will see a possible historical recurrence of the situations when the Indus area was controlled by west of the Hindu Kush. Pakistan cannot barricade its border against the incursion of Taliban from Afghanistan; nor can it invade and control Afghanistan once its current clients break the reins. It must either submit or be involved in an endless and costly war trying to keep the Taliban out of Pakistan - that its enlisted men will be increasingly unwilling to fight.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by Amber G. »

To add to -
putnanja wrote:This takes the cake!!

Pakistan refutes NSA's charge on Headley
...
Reacting to Mr. Menon’s observations, the Foreign Office put out a statement “strongly refuting’’ the charge and spokesman Abdul Basit described it as “yet another manifestation of the Indian establishment’s propagandistic stance towards Pakistan.”

Further, he sought to point out that this was entirely inconsistent with the understanding reached between the leadership of the two countries at Thimphu that terrorism was a common threat which needed to be addressed in a cooperative manner. :rotfl:
Yes, while many Pakis are whining about their H&D .. or trying to deny what everyone else knows can not be denied .. (and in spite of some who calls MMS all sorts of names eg "MMS's shameless love-making ...." or "Hilary Madama's dead equal equal... that stinks like a skunk").. when all said and done.. Here is what Hillary said in Islamabad about Headley ..
I don't know the specifics [of the revelations made by Headley] but I know that it has been quite a revealing set of facts that we've shared with the Pakistani authorities,
Link: NSA echoes Pillai on ISI role in 26/11

(Yesterday's Greta was worth watching...)
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by Amber G. »

Gus wrote:...Government officials have since publicly circled their wagons around Mr. Pillai....

How many Indians will get this American phrase 'circling the wagon'? what does this even mean to an Indian (even those who can read and understand english). This guy is a pompous ass.
FWIW - (Sorry if this has been already discussed), the phrase means "taking a defensive" position" (that is to defend Mr. Pillai and others for any outside remarks/attacks).. the term comes from travels in old US west where, when people rested in night, or when attacked, will put the wagons in a circle (so everyone's back can be watched by someone).
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by Suppiah »

ramana wrote:Its good article and states the Indian case very well especially when Indian press is full of RPIs who agree with Qureshi.
Perhaps it's time for India to try and convince the U.S. a dismantling of this sort is the best remedy possible.
The dismantling chorus is increasing in pitch...hope someone in State/Pentagon/WH is reading all this...and makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy..or should we get worried about a breakage of TSP and rump Sindh sending waves of barbarians over the borders :?:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by Suppiah »

putnanja wrote:
"Whether we like it or not, Headley's statements have come into the public domain.[/b] :?: :?: His revelations cannot be brushed under the carpet," Krishna said.
Did SMK say "We are the ones that put it there (in public domain) he he he..."
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by sanjaykumar »

Hard a$$ed Hindoos hehehe.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by Gus »

Amber G. wrote:FWIW - (Sorry if this has been already discussed), the phrase means "taking a defensive" position" (that is to defend Mr. Pillai and others for any outside remarks/attacks).. the term comes from travels in old US west where, when people rested in night, or when attacked, will put the wagons in a circle (so everyone's back can be watched by someone).
I know what that means. I was wondering the usage of it in the hundi - India's "leading national newspaper" - targeting an Indian readership.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by putnanja »

At home, a change of voice
The additional secretary (Naxalite management) will interact with the media from now, apparently in the wake of a directive to the home ministry to restructure the current mechanism.

The directive could be interpreted as an indirect gag order on the Union home ministry, which, the foreign policy establishment felt, was stepping into its turf. The latest flashpoint was Union home secretary G.K. Pillai’s comments on the eve of the foreign minister-level talks in Islamabad, which gave Pakistan an opportunity to sling barbs.

Such a directive to the home ministry can normally be issued only by the Prime Minister’s Office. It was known that the foreign policy establishment, responsible for implementing Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s peace initiative, was not happy with the timing of Pillai’s remarks, although some feel the home secretary would not have made the comments unilaterally.

...
...
The usually forthcoming Pillai was reticent today. He directed questions from journalists to D.R.S. Chaudhary, the designated official. Considered media-shy, Chaudhary replaces additional director-general (media) Onkar Kedia, who is on leave now.

...
...
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Water Dispute Raises Tension Between India and Pakistanis

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/21/world ... shmir.html
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

From the The Telegraph article posted above:
Few in the government dispute the content of Pillai’s remarks — that the ISI had a role in the Mumbai attacks — but many feel that such a comment could have been avoided when Pakistan was hosting an Indian minister. Also, the foreign policy establishment feels that issues involving David Headley — Pillai’s comments were based on the outcome of the militant’s interrogation — are its preserve.
National security adviser Shiv Shankar Menon today more or less echoed Pillai but the context was different.
*sigh*
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by arun »

The paranoid editor Dr. Shireen M Mazari of the equally paranoid newspaper, the Nation :(( :
A strange and dangerous delusion

By Shireen M Mazari | Published: July 21, 2010

……………................ the US has undermined our balance vis-à-vis India by pressuring us into conceding to Indian demands, including on the land route for its trade. In contrast, the US is not prepared to exert any pressure on India to resolve the Kashmir dispute. Even the military balance has been disturbed because of the US giving India all manner of strategic weapons, including transfer of sensitive technology and the missile defence system. And there are no conditionalities on how and against whom these weapons can be used. The Indo-US nuclear deal itself will allow India to increase its nuclear weapons build up because of the liberated unsafeguarded fissile material from civilian reactors. ……………………............

The Nation
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by SSridhar »

NSA Shiv Shankar Menon's observation
The below point needs to be repeatedly emphasized. We have been saying this point here for quite sometime now here in BRf.
His second point was that “traditional definitions” of terrorist groups in South Asia had become “meaningless” because they are no longer segmented but “increasingly fused” in operations, ideology and communications.
The purely national/regional terrorist organizations have integrated themselves with the Wahhabi/Salafi worldwide organizations. There is thus cross pollination of ideas, tactics and strategies. Earlier, they merely shared space, training facilities etc but each stream was clearly distinctive. That is how the Punjabi Taliban are the same as Al Qaeda. That is why Ilyas Kashmiri is an operational commander of Al Qaeda. Paradoxically, the Ahl-e-Hadith LeT stands out on the other side of the divide, along with the PA. The Deobandi Jaish-e-Muhammad (JeM) straddles the divide. The integration will be complete when large sections of LeT move over to the other side. It is in a trickle now.

Another trend that needs to be noted is that increasingly the Pakistani society is becoming Deobandi/Ahl-e-Hadith. It then becomes easier for the terrorist organizations to find support and subvert from within.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by shiv »

SSridhar wrote: Another trend that needs to be noted is that increasingly the Pakistani society is becoming Deobandi/Ahl-e-Hadith. It then becomes easier for the terrorist organizations to find support and subvert from within.
It would be wrong for us as members of civil society to sit back and watch this happen.

But the problem is that non Muslims cannot interfere in the workings of Muslim society. The simplest method IMO is to be critical of Islam - by saying that Islam==Paki Wahhabandi (Deobandi/Ahl-e-Hadith.)

Open ridiculing and dissing of the behavior of these groups by individuals such as us, who cannot be controlled by any government would be a way to force out the "silent voices" in Islam who disagree with the contention that Islam=Paki Wahhabandi.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by Dilbu »

MMS or a section of his cabinet wanted Headley's revelation about ISI involvement to remain hidden from Indian public in order to avoid further pressure upon themselves to take action. Another section led by HM thought it should be out in the open and the pressure should be on TSP. It is plain and simple onlee. No chanakian-giri here.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Dialogue with Pak will be a graduated one: Krishna to Clinton

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article526461.ece
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by jrjrao »

Our WKK need to stop kissing kandles, and instead they need to start kissing old Paki hags like Maleeha Lodhi.

Because if they start kissing this Maleeha-e-hag-e-behuq, then perhaps we will be spared arrogant lectures in London such as this.

The only reason that this Lodhi can get away with such provocation is because we do not have an ungli up the Paki musharraf, and because perhaps "leaders" like MMS do not wish to have an ungli up the Paki musharraf.

Kashmir root cause of terrorism in S Asia: Maleeha
http://www.thenews.com.pk/print1.asp?id=252012

LONDON: Pakistan’s former ambassador to the UK & USA, Dr Maleeha Lodhi, has said the youth-led unprecedented protests in the Indian-held Kashmir have exposed the spectacular failure of India in the valley.

Dr Lodhi was speaking at an event in the House of Commons organised by Commonwealth Journalists Association (UK) and also addressed by Brian Hanrahan, BBC Diplomatic Correspondent; M J Akbar, Editor, India on Sunday and Sunday Guardian, and Sir Hilary Synnott,....

She reminded the US and its Western allies that the reason why they didn’t enjoy popularity in the conflict-ridden states, despite spending billions in aid through the elite, is they are not seen on the side of equity, fairness and justice for the oppressed.

She cautioned India to abandon the threat of punitive strikes or war everytime there is a terrorist incident.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by Dipanker »

SSridhar wrote:
Another trend that needs to be noted is that increasingly the Pakistani society is becoming Deobandi/Ahl-e-Hadith. It then becomes easier for the terrorist organizations to find support and subvert from within.
Mostly the Pakjabis and the Pashtuns though, right?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Sri wrote:How to beg in front of Camera

Video is of Clinton's 'interaction with young Paki Journos"

Look how they ask beg in an interview... I have to give it to Hillary... She doesn't give an inch...
One woman mentioned that Punjab Govt has no money to pay the victims of Daata Durbar attacks.

She forgot that the same Punjab Govt gave millions of dollars to LeT/JuD.

All "journalists" except the moderator linked their questions to some issue related to India.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by Neela »

Sri wrote:How to beg in front of Camera
Video is of Clinton's 'interaction with young Paki Journos"
Look how they ask beg in an interview... I have to give it to Hillary... She doesn't give an inch...
From 37:20 on:

Paki jouno:
60 years..no Kashmir. But please, atleast water please. Cannot wait. Water please.

HIllary Clinton:
Deal made in 1960s. Built in resolution process. Cant do zilch. You signed the deal...now live by it you morons!Learn to manage your share of water better!
Next please!

I think only a Paki can beg with such aggression and the world seems to tolerate it. Beggars must be told to beg politely!
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by amit »

Dilbu wrote:MMS or a section of his cabinet wanted Headley's revelation about ISI involvement to remain hidden from Indian public in order to avoid further pressure upon themselves to take action. Another section led by HM thought it should be out in the open and the pressure should be on TSP. It is plain and simple onlee. No chanakian-giri here.
Boss is this your feeling/assertion or do you have links to back this up? I ask because there has been a steady stream of media reports about Headley's revelations ever since the interrogations took place.

Surely if the PM had wanted to black it out he could have done so after the first reports? Or are you suggesting that the HM has the power to override the PM?

Or is this another version of the familiar narrative: A few desh bhakts fighting valiantly to thwart the desh dhorhis while the Rajmata sits and watches impassively?

I'm sure you find it interesting that every single report which has appeared in the media regarding the so-called unhappiness with Pillai ji's revelations and timing of the same has taken the familiar route of quoting unnamed sources.

Against this you have the NSA (also known as the side kick of the biggest desh dhrohi) saying the same thing and going further. And the Foreign Sec categorically quashing rumours of the Krishna-Jacques (courtesy Lalmohan ji! :) ) meeting in Kabul.

I know folks will believe what they want to believe but sometimes facts on the ground matter too, IMVVHO.
Last edited by amit on 21 Jul 2010 10:58, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by amit »

abhishek_sharma wrote:Dialogue with Pak will be a graduated one: Krishna to Clinton

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article526461.ece
Some quotes from this report:
India on Tuesday told the U.S. that its dialogue with Pakistan will be a graduated one as the problems between the two countries cannot be solved in a few sittings.
“I mentioned that India wanted a dialogue which could continue. It was not a dialogue which could be over in one sitting. I think there has to be continuity to the dialogue. Because the nature of the problems that we have inherited over 60 years cannot be resolved by one dialogue, two or three dialogues,” he told reporters accompanying him on his way back home.
“So I gave my assessment of the situation. India wanted a graduated approach to settle the problems (with Pakistan). First we should dispose of those which are doables which take very little complexities. We can deal with other problems later on when we meet again,” he said.
So India wants extended rounds of chai-biskoot sessions with Pakistan with no fixed time frame.
Last edited by amit on 21 Jul 2010 10:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by Raghavendra »

R Vaidya wrote: Pakistan is currently a ferocious Doberman held on a leash by the US, and fed with exotic bones. It was meant to bark at and bite the USSR (and India) when the cold war was on, but the US realised recently that the dog has developed rabies and has become ferocious enough to bite the owner and the neighbours.
Splendid analogy :D
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by Dilbu »

Boss is this your feeling/assertion or do you have links to back this up? I ask because there has been a steady stream of media reports about Headley's revelations ever since the interrogations took place.
It is my feeling onlee. If it was from a news source I would have given the link. This is the conclusion I reached after thinking over the facts. I am an aam aadmi on street with no upper hand in any of these matters. So I am simply stating what I feel.

Headley story was distorted multiple times with denials and accustions and 'unnamed sources' from the beginning. As a common man I was confused and took it as ToIlet theories when I saw GoI giving pappi jhappi and make love to TSP. But my trust in GOI is shattered when Home Secy goes public with the news.

Now my problem is not whether it was chankiangiri to thwart the talks with Pak from GoI or not but the fact that we attempted to push these grave details under the carpet and make love to TSP. Someone betrayed my trust.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by amit »

Dilbu wrote:It is my feeling onlee. If it was from a news source I would have given the link. This is the conclusion I reached after thinking over the facts. I am an aam aadmi on street with no upper hand in any of these matters. I am simply stating what I feel.
Dilbu,

Don't get me wrong, you are as much entitled to your opinion on this as I am to mine.

Personally just for record, I also feel very frustrated that there is no demonstrable and punitive action against the Pacques after the horror of 26/11 and it makes my blood boil when turds like Qureshi strut about displaying their wares while our netas feel bound by diplomatic niceties.

However, I always assume - and this is irrespective of which political dispensation is in power - that if I feel angry as an Indian these netas and babudom also feel this anger and are probably doing something about it which may not come to limelight but is happening nevertheless.

I also don't have links to support my assertion. It's my feeling only.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by Dilbu »

However, I always assume - and this is irrespective of which political dispensation is in power - that if I feel angry as an Indian these netas and babudom also feel this anger and are probably doing something about it which may not come to limelight but is happening nevertheless.
I am not shouting "sellout by MMS...jeehaaard" here. Some concessions will have to be made. I just don't like the ones being made.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by neeraj »

A stable Pakistan (which is what US is aiming for) is not in the interest of world peace, leave alone India.
Unless this elementary fact is internalised by GOI, we will forever be facing terrorist attacks.
Currently the bulk of the Paki population is tied up in feeding themselves - the moment they get some semblance of stability they will direct their energy in targetting India. A stable Pakistan is a virus to the world which needs to be vaccinated and only India can administer the vaccination.

It will just take a few years to destroy Pakistan economically if we play our cards right

1. Provide 0% tax on exports of textile, rice - i.e big ticket exports of Pakistan.
2. Do not export items to Pakistan like cotton which are then used by pakistan for further exports
3. Stop exporting foodgrains/meat to Pakistan which bring down prices in Pakistan. Help fuel the inflation there.
4. India needs to internally and quitely severely censure foriegn companies who do big business with Pakistan. US regularly does this with companies dealing with Iran / North Korea - what is stopping India?
5. Take active steps like increasing the security features of our banknotes and also print/distribute paki notes - pay them back in the same coin.
6. Ensure not a drop of extra water reaches Paksitan - ensure even flood waters for the easter rivers do not reach Pakistan.
Make full use of the western rivers as per IWT.
7. Make less money available for goverance by ensuring Pakistan spends more of their GDP on defence. This can simply be done by ensuring we spend 3.5% of our GDP in defence.

Sometimes I get really frustuated with the sheer amount of time wasted by GOI to pursue some of these simple steps.
Last edited by neeraj on 21 Jul 2010 12:01, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by derkonig »

Aman ki tamasha, that is what Paki-born MMS is doing. NDA atleast did Parakram, banned overflights & essentially made things tough for the Pakis. MMS on the contrary seems to be eager to reward the Pakis for their acts be it Havana, SeS, irrevelant borders & future Kashmir gift away, the current piss process farce. MMS is the biggest threat to India's sovereignty.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by Aditya_V »

derkonig - > Given 3.5+ support, the quantity and quality of arms supplied to pakistan we have no choice but to be patient and follow the foreign Policy which MMS is following. However, we need to get rid of certain media men following foreign agendas before we can get the situation to our liking.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by neeraj »

‘Only 200 of 360 locomotives operational’
Federal Railways Minister Ghulam Ahmed Bilour has said that Pakistan Railways has 360 locomotives out of which only 200 are operational, though they are not reliable. :lol:

The Railways needed 400 new locomotives to overcome the deficit, the minister said at a press conference at the divisional headquarters on Tuesday. Besides, he said, between 60 and 70 power vans were required to run the trains.

He said billions of rupees were spent on buying land for building motorways from Lahore to Islamabad and from Islamabad to Peshawar. He said that had this amount been spent on upgrading the tracks, the Railways could have run trains at a speed of 200km an hour. :rotfl:

The minister added that the existing tracks with 8,000 bridges and culverts were built in 1861. While the tracks had a life span of 100 years, they had already completed around 150 years.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by SSridhar »

Dipanker wrote:
SSridhar wrote:
Another trend that needs to be noted is that increasingly the Pakistani society is becoming Deobandi/Ahl-e-Hadith. It then becomes easier for the terrorist organizations to find support and subvert from within.
Mostly the Pakjabis and the Pashtuns though, right?
The common misperception is that Berelvis and Sufis are somehow peaceful. They may be but they can also be aroused to great fanaticism. Most Sunni Pakistanis are simply Sunni Hanafis, or Sufis (of the Chisti or Qadriya, or Naqshbandi orders) or Berelvis. There are also significant sections of Deobandis and some Ahl-e-Hadees as well. The latter two are growing rapidly winning converts from the other sects/schools.

Though the Sufi orders believed in the 'Unity of Being' (similar to advaita in Hinduism) concept propounded by al-Arabi, Akbar's hijacking of Islam in Indian subcontinent fired many Sufi theologians to purify Islam. It started with Sheikh Ahmed Sirhindi of the Naqshbandi order, Mujadid Alf-e-Thani (or, the First Reformer of the Second Millennium of Hijra calendar). He struck at the very root of the Sufi thinking of 'Unity of Being' and faulted that for Hindu influences and Akbar's religious waywardness. The rot set in after that and the distinctions got blurred. It became easy to arouse fanatical feelings as well as purity began to be stressed rather than syncretism. (Sirhindi's descendants went to Afghanistan, especially Kabul to preach their brand of Sufism. Later, Islamic students went to Deoband for religious training and thus Deobandism spread in Afghanistan.) Aurangzeb took this zeal to horrendous heights. Mughal empire declined even more. Another Naqshbandi theologian, Shah Waliullah, prescribed even more purification to arrest the decline, inspired by ibn al-Wahhab whom he met in Hejaz. Waliullah's son influenced Ahmed 'Berelvi' and militancy and jihadism were introduced into Islam then helped by the British as well for their geopolitical reasons.

So, one can see how the lines can be easily crossed when one perceives that 'Islam is in danger'. The pir, murid and sajida nashin can all be 'dualistic' and have been.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by RajeshA »

MMS has gone for a strategy which
  • High Indian Economic Growth
  • Confidence in Low Pakistani Economic Growth
  • Keeping Pakistan caged through useless talks
  • Letting Pakistan stew in own juices
  • Easing up of anti-India agenda in support by 3.5 Friends of Pakistan
  • Coordinating Long-Term Strategy with the Americans
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by Dilbu »

RajeshA wrote:MMS has gone for a strategy which
  • High Indian Economic Growth
  • Confidence in Low Pakistani Economic Growth
  • Keeping Pakistan caged through useless talks
  • Letting Pakistan stew in own juices
  • Easing up of anti-India agenda in support by 3.5 Friends of Pakistan
  • Coordinating Long-Term Strategy with the Americans
Points 3,5 & 6 are based on very shaky assumptions.
The biggest problem is India is up against the sole super power in all TSP related policies. Unless MMS can get US to tow India's line or atleast see things from Indian POV nothing will come out of it. Ombaba's strategy is to give bare minimum to Indians to get the job done in the region then to exit and rule over the region through its munna TSPA. We are back to square one when that happens.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by SSridhar »

Dilbu wrote:
RajeshA wrote:MMS has gone for a strategy which
  • High Indian Economic Growth
  • Confidence in Low Pakistani Economic Growth
  • Keeping Pakistan caged through useless talks
  • Letting Pakistan stew in own juices
  • Easing up of anti-India agenda in support by 3.5 Friends of Pakistan
  • Coordinating Long-Term Strategy with the Americans
Points 3,5 & 6 are based on very shaky assumptions.
I agree with you on points 3 & 5. Point 6 seems true.

As for Point # 3, I believe that Pakistan is too seasoned a player to be bogged down with useless talks. If the idea is to keep terror away by engaging in talks, Pakistan will not take that bait. After all terrorists are non-state actors, aren't they ? More seriously, today, the terrorist groups are acting independent of the PA, except for the LeT. The JeM is sitting on the fence, torn between AQAM and loyalty to PA. HuJI is concentrating on jihad against the impious state of Pakistan. The myriad other tanzeems are with the HuJI. So, it is LeT that is the greatest threat to us at present. If that needs to be caged in, we need to talk to PA, not to political leadership. Quereshi & Gilani being the mouthpieces of the PA, are forcing us to do so. Hence, the recent clamour in India also for talks with the PA.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by amit »

Dilbu wrote:
MMS has gone for a strategy which
  • High Indian Economic Growth
  • Confidence in Low Pakistani Economic Growth
  • Keeping Pakistan caged through useless talks
  • Letting Pakistan stew in own juices
  • Easing up of anti-India agenda in support by 3.5 Friends of Pakistan
  • Coordinating Long-Term Strategy with the Americans
Points 3,5 & 6 are based on very shaky assumptions.
The biggest problem is India is up against the sole super power in all TSP related policies. Unless MMS can get US to tow India's line or atleast see things from Indian POV nothing will come out of it. Ombaba's strategy is to give bare minimum to Indians to get the job done in the region then to exit and rule over the region through its munna TSPA. We are back to square one when that happens.
I'm sorry that I have to say this but this is an extremely simplistic and binary assumption.

It does not take into account that the US will most definitely factor in the ground reality that within the next 10 years India will be or will be well on the way to being the third largest economy in the world and a country which in many way is similar to the US of A.

And it will be a country with a common enemy, PRC. Now you want to believe US of A would rather risk alienating the 3rd largest economy for the sake of munna TSPA? And in the process would risk having a inimical relationship with the 1st and 3rd biggest economies which together would represent almost half the world's population and the most dynamic markets?

I think a dose of realism and less of emotion helps.

In this case it's pretty obvious that the US and India have been working behind the scenes to put pressure on Pakistan. How this will pan out remains to be seen.

However the data points are there. It had become an urban legend on BRF that the US would not give access to Headley. Well guess what not only did India get access, Headley was allow to sing like a canary and talk about ISI involvement. Do you think all that is a coincidence?

Or the fact that things were so well choreographed that this whole sequence of events culminated with Hillary bahen visiting the Paks and while promising money told them to bugger off in terms of help to gang up on India?
Last edited by amit on 21 Jul 2010 13:13, edited 2 times in total.
amit
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by amit »

SSridhar wrote:More seriously, today, the terrorist groups are acting independent of the PA, except for the LeT. The JeM is sitting on the fence, torn between AQAM and loyalty to PA. HuJI is concentrating on jihad against the impious state of Pakistan. The myriad other tanzeems are with the HuJI. So, it is LeT that is the greatest threat to us at present. If that needs to be caged in, we need to talk to PA, not to political leadership. Quereshi & Gilani being the mouthpieces of the PA, are forcing us to do so. Hence, the recent clamour in India also for talks with the PA.
Sridhar,

Very valid points but would it be possible for the LeT to launch attacks in scale of 26/11 without active involvement of the Paki fauj? And given the Kasab fallout, it makes it that much more difficult for the Paki fauj to get involved, one reason I think there has been no repeat on Indian mainland, even though the Kabul Embassy bombing and then the shoot out was as daring as the ISI can dare to get.

I would like to know your thoughts on this.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by Dilbu »

It does not take into account that the US will most definitely factor in the ground reality that within the next 10 years India will be or will be well on the way to being the third largest economy in the world and a country which in many way is similar to the US of A.
US is getting all the required coooperation and market access from India even now when 26/11s are going on. In fact they use these incidents to their advantage. Heck they can even turn on and off the terror tap against India when ever they want. And you want me to believe they will do a u-turn because our economy is going to be big in 10 years.

If they cannot see our POV now then I don't believe they will see it after 10 years. This is basically asking India to twiddle thumbs and wait no matter how many of its people get killed by TSP until US decides to side with us. Which is another way of asking to do GUBO. I am not sure that is going to happen.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by shravan »

Twitter

Killing anyone accused of Blasphemy is not inhumane. Mulla Hamadi in a Press Release published in Jasarat, Pakistan

Hamadi threatens to behead Federal Minister for minorities Shahbaz Bhatti if he is accused of blasphemy. Pakistan mullah Risalat

Hamadi's Press Release (urdu) in Jasarat. http://j.mp/arVL43
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by SSridhar »

amit wrote:. . . but would it be possible for the LeT to launch attacks in scale of 26/11 without active involvement of the Paki fauj? And given the Kasab fallout, it makes it that much more difficult for the Paki fauj to get involved, one reason I think there has been no repeat on Indian mainland, even though the Kabul Embassy bombing and then the shoot out was as daring as the ISI can dare to get.
My take is different for two reasons.

One, LeT is absolutely capable of launching an attack all on its own. It could have perfectly launched the 26/11 all by itself. Look at the the PA involvement in 26/11 - training at Mangla and possibly outskirts of Karachi, supply of maritime charts and GPS waypoints, arranging a boat for PNR 2.5 million, providing satellite phones, handling the terrorists and motivating them through every step for three days, and setting up communication. Some of these can be handled by LeT itself and there are any number of retired PA, PN officers available to do the rest. I therefore believe that rather than LeT initiating the Mumbai attack, it was completely a PA initiated attack and foot soldiers were supplied by the eastern-allies of the PA, namely the LeT. That was the same in the two bombings in Kabul where the western-allies of the PA, namely the Haqqani Group, supplied the suicide bombers. However, there is an assault going on the LeT to wean away its cadres to the Punjabi Taliban (or Wahabandis). LeT (and the PA) cannot remain impervious to this development. The only way to survive this threat is by LeT increasing its stock among the rural masses, particularly in Central and South Punjab. And, the only way of increasing the stock is to mount an even more audacious attack on India. Attractive opportunities are presenting themselves with upcoming events in India. The Kabul attacks and the 26/11 left tell-tale evidences linking to the PA and the were messages to India and also to the US that it is PA that determines India policies in Pakistan and nobody can do anything about that. Having conveyed that message, the PA may choose to be more careful in covering its tracks in the immediate future.

Two, Pakistanis are well known for becoming arrogant, audacious and overbearing at the slightest imagined turn of events their way. Remember the absurd demands by the PA during negotiations at Simla after Pakistan's victory in 1971 ? Remember the shrill 'azadi' speeches of Madam BB ? Remember the 'lay-off' speech of Musharraf after 9/11 ? Now, they perceive that they have the US under their thumb and the world is under their feet. More than that, they feel that India is getting sidelined. Pakistan are the world T-20 champions. Pakistan feels that India is simply unable to do anything even after a mountain of evidence against the State actors of Pakistan. And, the threats of the US are also circumscribed by ground reality in Afghanistan. If you look at the statements from Pakistan, they perceive Man Mohan Singh & SM Krishna as old men who do not have it in them to order an attack against Pakistan. They made the same mistake in 1965 against a diminutive Lal Bahdur Shastri but the martial race that they are, they do not learn easily. PA may thus see a 'window of opportunity' now as they saw in 1965.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2

Post by amit »

SSridhar wrote:One, LeT is absolutely capable of launching an attack all on its own. It could have perfectly launched the 26/11 all by itself. Look at the the PA involvement in 26/11 - training at Mangla and possibly outskirts of Karachi, supply of maritime charts and GPS waypoints, arranging a boat for PNR 2.5 million, providing satellite phones, handling the terrorists and motivating them through every step for three days, and setting up communication. Some of these can be handled by LeT itself and there are any number of retired PA, PN officers available to do the rest. I therefore believe that rather than LeT initiating the Mumbai attack, it was completely a PA initiated attack and foot soldiers were supplied by the eastern-allies of the PA, namely the LeT. That was the same in the two bombings in Kabul where the western-allies of the PA, namely the Haqqani Group, supplied the suicide bombers. However, there is an assault going on the LeT to wean away its cadres to the Punjabi Taliban (or Wahabandis). LeT (and the PA) cannot remain impervious to this development. The only way to survive this threat is by LeT increasing its stock among the rural masses, particularly in Central and South Punjab. And, the only way of increasing the stock is to mount an even more audacious attack on India. Attractive opportunities are presenting themselves with upcoming events in India. The Kabul attacks and the 26/11 left tell-tale evidences linking to the PA and the were messages to India and also to the US that it is PA that determines India policies in Pakistan and nobody can do anything about that. Having conveyed that message, the PA may choose to be more careful in covering its tracks in the immediate future.

Two, Pakistanis are well known for becoming arrogant, audacious and overbearing at the slightest imagined turn of events their way. Remember the absurd demands by the PA during negotiations at Simla after Pakistan's victory in 1971 ? Remember the shrill 'azadi' speeches of Madam BB ? Remember the 'lay-off' speech of Musharraf after 9/11 ? Now, they perceive that they have the US under their thumb and the world is under their feet. More than that, they feel that India is getting sidelined. Pakistan are the world T-20 champions. Pakistan feels that India is simply unable to do anything even after a mountain of evidence against the State actors of Pakistan. And, the threats of the US are also circumscribed by ground reality in Afghanistan. If you look at the statements from Pakistan, they perceive Man Mohan Singh & SM Krishna as old men who do not have it in them to order an attack against Pakistan. They made the same mistake in 1965 against a diminutive Lal Bahdur Shastri but the martial race that they are, they do not learn easily. PA may thus see a 'window of opportunity' now as they saw in 1965.
Sridhar,

Thanks for the detailed response. I agree with your points.
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