Indian Military Aviation

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 21 Jul 2010 02:17

BAE-HAL Sort Out Problems, India To Buy 57 More Hawk AJTs

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 21 Jul 2010 13:41

Juggi G wrote:BAE-HAL Sort Out Problems, India To Buy 57 More Hawk AJTs

This is victory of sorts for BAE after getting HAL as upset as they were. What the means used were, one would never know..

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 21 Jul 2010 14:12

The problems with BAE are well documented with HAL and IAF complaining publicly about the venture (albeit for slightly different reasons). If the problems have been resolved and a follow-up order likely, then it might be a good idea for HAL to publish (as publicly as before) the steps taken to iron out previous problems. Otherwise, they'll be on shaky grounds if the service availability rate stays low. Moreover, there might be accusations of impropriety.

nits · Post by **nits** » 21 Jul 2010 17:35

Q to gurus - if need arisies can HAWK AJT can be used as a combat plane in case of War...

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 21 Jul 2010 17:47

nits wrote:Q to gurus - if need arisies can HAWK AJT can be used as a combat plane in case of War...

Yes , I remember it was explained by "sehgal" on PTV about 7 years ago.It can carry some sort of A2G missile.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 21 Jul 2010 18:21

hawk can perform a large range of light attack roles, and is a useful dogfighter in visual flight conditions
in secure skies, it could be used to harrass retreating paqui columns freeing up the big boys for deeper and more precision strike
attach 4 hawks to a M2K or a Mig29 pair and you have a very nasty little A2A combo to deal with
there are many possibilities

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jul 2010 18:33

the only role they are suited for is light tactical attack in daytime with gun pods, rockets & unguided (ccip) bombs. they arent suited for dpsa or night missions and not suitable for a2a patrolling either given they have no radar, laser pod, night fighter cockpit or too much T:W/endurance/speed.

A M2k/F16/Mig29 will eat them up quite quickly.

so basically in sanitized skies, they can help out a bit. there is no reason to deploy them as combat duty squadrons - we need them in numbers for the role of AJT as purchased.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 21 Jul 2010 19:48

nits wrote:Q to gurus - if need arisies can HAWK AJT can be used as a combat plane in case of War...

No guru...It was reported that IAF insisted BAe to have enough modification so that HAWK can be used in war.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 21 Jul 2010 19:49

well... it probably has similar nav/attack functionality to early jaguars, but without the lo-lo performance

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 21 Jul 2010 20:40

Juggi G wrote:BAE-HAL Sort Out Problems, India To Buy 57 More Hawk AJTs

As they say.. Better the devil you know...

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 21 Jul 2010 20:44

shiv wrote: Having said that i would prefer not to be told that I must think of capability and not looks, because exactly the opposite is said depending on country of origin

On forums like F-16. People on that forum tell how good a plane is just by looking at photos of it. This includes the pilots.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Jul 2010 21:26

Carl_T wrote:
shiv wrote: Having said that i would prefer not to be told that I must think of capability and not looks, because exactly the opposite is said depending on country of origin
On forums like F-16. People on that forum tell how good a plane is just by looking at photos of it. This includes the pilots.

This is a piskological "self esteem" issue and I will say nothing more.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 Jul 2010 21:39

rohitvats wrote:IMO, it is a fallacy to compare the LCH with something like Apache and/or Mi-28N

You may be right, Rohit, but I was thinking from the perspective of delivering a Hellfire/Nag at X km range with Y degree of survivability and Z degree of performance.

We need to compare LCH performance specifications (not design specifications) with Apache/Mi-28 to make a comparison.

Apache D model LCH (design specs) Comment
Maximum speed: 293 km/h 275 km/h Apache is 6.5% faster. Operationally very less amount of time is spent at dash speed
Cruise speed: 265 km/h 260 km/h Same. Most of the time they’ll cruise
Range: 476 km 550 km full load LCH has 15.5% better range
Service ceiling: 6,400 m 6500 meters Same
Rate of climb: 12.7 m/s 12 m/s Same

I don’t have the data points on protection levels and payload of both, but based on what we have, their ability to get into trouble and get out of it is the same.

Reason we say Arjun is better than T-90 is because it can fire farther, absorb punches better, go faster and further. Prima facie I dont find similar advantages with Apache. Unless the LCH performance specs turn out to be lower than design specs, I would say both have the same ability to lob a Hellfire/Nag.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 22 Jul 2010 00:16

Sir,

IMO, it is also about payload and the amount of electro-optical stuff one can carry. Something a machine like Apache/Mi-28N can and do carry.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 22 Jul 2010 03:18

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Jul 2010 06:19

What payload can the Apache carry versus the LCH at 6000 meters may be the clincher.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jul 2010 06:38

plus the LCH specs (gross weight, empty weight, range, climb rate, useful ceiling) are all on paper at this stage -vs- existing helis in service. LCH is around 5 yrs away from IOC imo. we can expect full production rate by 2018 probably. so in the next decade or so we have to reply on Mi35 , WSI Dhruv and whatever else we buy addl.

it cannot be compared today to apache which has been in service since mid 80s from earliest version and proven itself in the field, seen tons of upgrades, has the best air launched atgm(hellfire) and probably the best avionics suite & mmw radar around.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Jul 2010 06:50

shiv wrote:What payload can the Apache carry versus the LCH at 6000 meters may be the clincher.

at least when the afgan war started, the apache couldn't carry itself to those heights, let alone carry any weapons or other payload. I don't remember off-hand the power offered to us as against the one that was used then.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 22 Jul 2010 07:56

Hey guys, sorry for my ignorance, but I'm given to understand that the Ka-50 is not participating in the trials, whereas Wikipedia says its a front runner...so is it really one of the contenders?

And Mi-28's armament is quite primitive if one goes by that table. Not AA qualified is it?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jul 2010 08:28

Mi28N has not been deployed in any serious fashion or funded with upgrades. that will left to yindu $$ if we go for it

will be 5 yr program to rip stuff out/replace and also fill the gaps in like MKI project. in the end it might end up as expensive as the apache with a 5 yr longer timeline and more suppliers each with their own peculiarties!

18000ft is stretching it a bit - only supply helis need to operate at those heights. attack role is best done by fixed wing birds than a helicopter flailing and struggling to keep itself afloat.

but it MUST perform well at 10-12,000ft which is where the armour friendly terrain of aksai chin, sikkim, tibet is probably....and ofcourse it needs to ferry itself over 20,000ft high passes like khardung la and chang la enroute the
battle area without depending on C17 to cart it ...perhaps without weapons but with fat MH60 style ferry tanks

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Jul 2010 08:39

Singha wrote: 18000ft is stretching it a bit - only supply helis need to operate at those heights. attack role is best done by fixed wing birds than a helicopter flailing and struggling to keep itself afloat.

Same problem applies to fixed wing fighters which cannot be agile enough to avoid mountaintops easily at those heights, leave alone missiles. Vide India's experience with Jags and MiG 27s in Kargil.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jul 2010 08:48

indeed. its hard to beat up a pup(heli) where bigger dogs struggle.

but Tejas,MKI,M2K all armed with mix of suitable munitions should be able to manage at those heights. the low wing loading of tejas and m2k is comfortable for hi-alt work....if the Mig27 is reengined with al31f and jaguar with honeywell they might perform better than before.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 22 Jul 2010 09:02

But singha saar, apart from the lower distance SAMs had to travel to hit our jets, the other problem they had operating fixed wing aircraft was that the guided bombs were not hitting the targets due to the rarified air. In their stead, a heli which can direct smaller but more accurate weaponry would be suitable, provided they can operate even close to reasonable efficiently at that altitude. So i suppose its a compromise and will be decided based on the type of target to be hit. In which case, it always helps to have both options.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jul 2010 09:48

most efficient option is a tactical nuke. a 10KT nuke would take out all fortifications atop a mountain like tiger hill.
but since thats a no-no, perhaps a 15,000lb glonass guided gliding FAE bomb launched from the back of a IL76
could be tried out.

the thing is, good mil-industrial complexes try out 100s of things of that a few turn into game changers. sher khan has 1000s of programs going on in parallel but we only hear of the majorly successful ones.

likewise, DRDO labs should be kept flush with cash to recruit creative people and try out many ideas...the wilder and more brfish the better

they could even crowdsource and apply power of social networking to have enthusiastic amateurs like us come up with wild ideas for weapons techs

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Jul 2010 10:30

The Mi-28N is certainly more heavily armored than Apache and is heavier with a penalty of more powerful engine.
But both Apache and 28N lacks the ejection seat of Ka-52 which is quite crucial in saving pilots life, I saw in that James Bund movie that European Tiger has ejection seat as well.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jul 2010 10:48

the ejection seat was only for movie probably?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Jul 2010 11:09

Singha wrote:the ejection seat was only for movie probably?

Not sure I thought they had one for real. Ok routine google tells me it has no ejection seat , so it was for the movie only.

I saw this pics of Mi-28N with some sort of escape hole right ahead of the cockpit , it seems used by pilot to make out ( perhaps jump the Russian pilots of Mi-28N strap chutes as part of standard suite ) when it crash lands or may be just jump out if they are flying at high altitudes , will post if i find.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 22 Jul 2010 14:40

Prime Ministerial Visit Presages Hawk Deal
Aviation Week

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Jul 2010 14:48

Ka-226 successfully completes hot weather tests in India

The Russian Kamov Ka- 226T light multirole helicopter, which Russia is offering the Indian military forces in a current tender for 197 units, has passed hot weather tests, a spokesman for Russian Helicopters said.

“After the summer tests in India, the helicopter is coming back to Russia in September for the next set of tests – certification tests,” the spokesman told Interfax-AVN at the Farnborough International Airshow.

The Ka-226T, which is fitted with two Arrius 2G2 engines from French company Turbomeca, passed winter tests in India in January and February, the spokesman said. “All the tests of the helicopters, including in harsh alpine conditions, were successful,” he said.

The Ka-226T is superior to foreign helicopters of the same category in some key respects. It is easy to control and is unsurpassed when used in hot weather or in mountain areas.

A proposal is under consideration for the Ka-226T to be manufactured in India under license.

So did Ka managed to better AW119 in these trials ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Jul 2010 14:54

Indian firm orders 4 Ka-32′s

The head of Russian aerospace holding company Oboronprom said on Monday that “literally five minutes ago” he signed a contract at the Farnborough International Airshow with India’s Vectra Group to sell it four Kamov Ka-32-11BC helicopters for a total of more than 30 million euros.

Delivery of the helicopters to India will start late this year or early in 2011, Oboronprom General Director Andrei Reus told a news conference.

It was the first-ever Indian purchase of Kamov choppers, he said.

Why cant corporate India buy ALH rather then Kamov

what is HAL marketing arm doing ?

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 22 Jul 2010 17:21

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 22 Jul 2010 17:57

India Asks U.S. to Lift Remaining Sanctions

India Asks U.S. to Lift Remaining Sanctions
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI
Published: 19 July 2010

NEW DELHI - New Delhi has told Washington that it is UnHappy that technology sanctions against many Indian entities still exist nearly two years after the India-U.S. civil nuclear deal.

Indian Foreign Ministry sources said the concerns were conveyed to James Jones, the U.S. national security adviser (NSA), during his recent meeting with Indian counterpart Shivshankar Menon.

Several Indian entities, including the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO), continue to labor under a ban on technology transfer imposed after India conducted nuclear tests in 1998. Most related sanctions were lifted in 2001.

The sources said Jones said he hoped Washington would be able to have some news on the issue by the time President Obama arrives here in November.

Last Month, Tokyo Lifted 1998 Restrictions on 11 Indian Entities, Including the DRDO and ISRO.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 22 Jul 2010 21:33

Austin wrote: So did Ka managed to better AW119 in these trials ?

the AW119 was out of the contest earlier for some other reason (no military variant or somethng of that sort). The only contestants were the Fennec and Ka-226T.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Jul 2010 21:45

Kartik wrote:the AW119 was out of the contest earlier for some other reason (no military variant or somethng of that sort). The only contestants were the Fennec and Ka-226T.

Thanks for the correction , I mean the Fennec .

I was under the impression Fennec would any way win , last time it won against Bell but the whole thing had to be cancelled b'coz they bought a civil variant , now they must be praying the Ka-226T does not spoil their party

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 23 Jul 2010 20:41

IAF conducting trials for attack helicopters

Boeing has also developed capability in the Apache to control unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). While so far this ability is restricted to control over a single UAV, the company is building systems to allow airborne control over multiple UAVs. But this has not been offered to or requested by the IAF.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 24 Jul 2010 12:26

MiG-27 crashes in West Bengal, two pilots dead

KOLKATA: A MiG-27 fighter aircraft crashed in West Bengal's Jalpaiguri district on Saturday morning, killing the two pilots onboard, a defence official said.

The aircraft crashed in Moinaguri village in Jalpaiguri.

Twelve villagers, including four children, were injured in the accident, Wing Commander Mahesh Upasani, the defence spokesperson (eastern headquarters), said here.

Very sad!! RIP

Wonder if this was an upgraded one or the non-upgraded aircraft

sum · Post by **sum** » 24 Jul 2010 12:44

Didnt IAF only recently allow the MiG-27s back in the air after grounding them for a loong time?

Some serious issue seems to be plaguing the MiG-27 if a crash happens so fast after the flights were allowed to take the skies after a thorough checkup!!!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 Jul 2010 18:28

sum, outnanja, 2 pilots mean it was a mig-23UB, not mig-27. really sad news.
RIP and my heartfelt condolences to the family.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 24 Jul 2010 20:18

putnanja wrote:
KOLKATA: A MiG-27 fighter aircraft crashed in West Bengal's Jalpaiguri district on Saturday morning, killing the two pilots onboard, a defence official said.

The aircraft crashed in Moinaguri village in Jalpaiguri.

Twelve villagers, including four children, were injured in the accident, Wing Commander Mahesh Upasani, the defence spokesperson (eastern headquarters), said here.

Putnanja sir, the article from the link says the pilot survived... It was a farmer who had perished in the crash.. Posting the same link and quoting the story..
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 209687.cms

JALPAIGURI: A MiG-27 fighter jet of the Indian Air Force on Saturday crashed in a field, killing one person on the ground and injuring 25 others, five of them critically, at Bhotputti village in West Bengal's Jalpaiguri district.
The pilot, Saket Verma, ejected from the aircraft but was injured and has been hospitalised, Superintendent of Police Anand Kumar said.
Inspector General of Police (North Bengal) Ranveer Kumar said that a farmer, B Rai, who was cultivating his field was killed when the MIG crashed between Moynaguri and Chengrabandha.
The SP said that 25 people were injured when the aircraft crashed, of whom 5 were in a serious condition.
An IAF spokesperson said in New Delhi that the MiG-27 took off from the Hashimara Air Base on a routine sortie and crashed within minutes of take-off.
The mishap took place around 10:30 am at a place around 25 km away from the Hashimara base.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 25 Jul 2010 05:19

IAF to deploy mountain radars along LAC

This comes in the backdrop of continuing intrusions — the military likes to dub them "transgressions" — by the People's Liberation Army all along the unresolved 4,056-km Line of Actual Control, from Pangong Tso lake in eastern Ladakh to the "finger area" in Sikkim.