Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2010

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Jul 2010 21:46

negi wrote:^ Well with that line of argument what is that stops from chooha Qureshi from being 'Chankian' ? All said and done at the end of the day it is clear that things haven't changed as far as Indo-Pak talks are concerned i.e. talks are initiated on Pakistan's terms i.e. lets forget about terrorism for time being or lets talk on water only to serve as a platform for internationalizing the J&K issue.

As far as I see from Pakistan's pov the IWT issue now figures even on US agenda so the rona-dhona from TSP side at least works, what has thumb twiddling and making ambiguous statements on our side yielded right to be called 'Chanakian' ?

Ultimately the Pakistan issue is for us to solve, and if we can get US cooperation that is fine. If Pakis want US cooperation they will ask for it and what are we going to do about it other than whine?

I was studying the video I have linked carefully to make a point about how one of the questioners uses body language to suggest that the nuclear issue is an echandee issue. But it strikes me that we too, at least on BRF, have our own echandee issues. For example we would like macho military action - smash Pakistan and kill Pakis to make us feel better. I saw a statement where someone said "At least the previous govt did Parakram". So a non war pointless mobilization has now become a point of honor because we have begun to feel so small and impotent about Pakistan. But we are relatively impotent. Why not start seeing things from that viewpoint?

Similarly - the video shows a Paki indicating severe jealousy of India saying the US is favoring India with the nuke deal "Loss of nuclear parity" says the anchor. On BRF we echo the "US likes the other guy more

" cry by saying "Now Pakis have put water on the agenda". We are jealous of the Pakis because they have the US's ear, just like the Pakis are jealous of India. WOW!!

Like I said wtf is india going to do about it?

One of the things we need to do is get a little "Indic" mentality back, remove arrogance and false pride and see what a bullshit situation "shining India" is itself in. I have been spending the last few days digging and digging and digging up development statistics about Pakistan and India. India is barely better. I was ashamed that it was so difficult to dig up the statistics to show where Pakistan is failing. Those stats are there. I have dug them up - but for most part India's problems are much the same, and much much much bigger.

We simply cannot get into a hot war for nothing if that can be avoided. If it must be fought it must have a clearly defined end point that leaves little to chance. And as long as war cannot be fought Pakistan is going to needle us. Oh yes they are going down, but it is slow. Very slow and we will suffer. But we have to take them down without hurting ourselves.

Again - look at that rapette in the video saying "We don't care about doing anything until our security is clear - so give us Kashmir". I do not want India leaders saying "We don't want to do anyting until Pakistanis finished off" But as long as they don't say that we are howling and weeping with jealousy and shame on BRF. But hey we had better get used to the idea that the superpower is the US and Pakistan is its chamcha. What are we going to do about it? GUBO to the US? Become a superpower in 20 minutes?

Shankas · Post by **Shankas** » 21 Jul 2010 21:47

[quote="shiv"][quote="Sri"]How to beg in front of Camera

Video is of Clinton's 'interaction with young Paki Journos"

Look how they ask beg in an interview... I have to give it to Hillary... She doesn't give an inch...

Hillary is being asked to solve Pakistan's domestic issues - water, electricity, tax policies...
She is amazing, has a better pulse of pakistan than Zardari, Gilani and the rest of the lot.
May be she will get to President after all....

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 21 Jul 2010 22:08

One of the things we need to do is get a little "Indic" mentality back, remove arrogance and false pride and see what a bullshit situation "shining India" is itself in. I have been spending the last few days digging and digging and digging up development statistics about Pakistan and India. India is barely better.

Similar exercise; agreed.

And as long as war cannot be fought Pakistan is going to needle us. Oh yes they are going down, but it is slow. Very slow and we will suffer. But we have to take them down without hurting ourselves.

And just like in the independence struggle, during this long, slow process, India needs to improve itself.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 21 Jul 2010 22:37

Shiv wrote:
"Very slow and we will suffer. But we have to take them down without hurting ourselves."

Agreed. But could GoI give us some hope that we are assisting the Pakis in committing ritual seppuku?

Staying out of a knife fight with the Pakis until 2020 is a no brainer our real adversary is China. But are there not things we could do that are plausibly deniable?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jul 2010 22:57

Cosmo_R, No it cant for that will prevent the TSP from doing that because India said it. We need them to do it by themselves. Take the 50K feet view. India used the DCh confessions brilliantly. It can use them for any court case in India or elsewhere.
However it made the TSP confess it continues to support terrorists.

Staying out of the knife fight good as long as TSP is fighting itself. What is the need to get invovled? Get stabbed?

As per PRC time will tell.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 21 Jul 2010 23:07

Good article. One hint for the Indian decision for this diplomacy is the Sen John Kerry of US Foreign Policy committee influence. With the help of Halbrooke they are working on a civilian policy for AfPak and they wanted to have that approach in every region. We will get the next step from the same group regarding any shift.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/opi ... 190789.cms
Pak turns tables on India; what does India gain from these talks
20 Jul 2010, 0047 hrs IST,Brahma Chellaney,

What prompted New Delhi this year to resume dialogue with Pakistan, first at the foreign-secretary level and then at the foreignminister level? Mum is the word. Confusion and contradiction marks India’s current Pakistan policy. Just take one example.

On the one hand, New Delhi blames Pakistan’s powerful Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency for “controlling and coordinating” the Mumbai terror attacks “from the beginning to the end.” And on the other hand, it institutes “peace talks” with a Pakistani government whose India policy is controlled by the army and ISI. What does India seek to gain from such talks? Mum again is the word.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 21 Jul 2010 23:10

What GoI wants right now from Pakistan, is simply that they accept that people in their government helped carry out the Mumbai 26/11 Attacks.

India is doing it step by step, using American corroboration, using dossiers, using court cases, using talks! What India wants is to get rid of Pakistan's deniability in the world opinion, including in the opinion of the members of OIC.

India is preparing a stick to beat up Pakistan at each and every international forum. Whatever they say in the future, India would always say Mumbai 26/11. India wants to slowly and steadily impress it upon the world community, that Pakistan is the aggressor. Whereas other terrorist organizations often claim responsibility for terror attacks, State actors do not, and this responsibility needs to be stuck to them by others.

Why all this with responsibility? There are some uses:

Nobody preaches India anymore to talk to the Pakis. It is up to the Indians if they do.
Next time when an attack again takes place, Pakis would not be able to deny any complicity. The de-facto working assumption would be that Pakis are guilty. It is up to them to prove otherwise.
Next time when an attack takes place in India, and should India retaliate, India wants to undercut any support Pakistan could get from other Muslim countries.
Also next time India can proceed to attack Pakistan, without USA or PRC coming to Pakistan's rescue.
Next time if and when India retaliates against Pakistan, the Pakistani public opinion would be divided regarding the justification of that retaliation. It would become slightly more difficult to mobilize Pakistani public opinion in favor of the Army, especially in those sections which are not much impressed by the Army anyway - Sindhis, Baluchis, Shias, Ahmediyas, even Barelvis, mango Abduls, etc..
Also Indian public opinion would be strongly in favor

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 21 Jul 2010 23:18

U.S. Forces Step Up Pakistan Presence

WASHINGTON—U.S. Special Operations Forces have begun venturing out with Pakistani forces on aid projects, deepening the American role in the effort to defeat Islamist militants in Pakistani territory that has been off limits to U.S. ground troops.The expansion of U.S. cooperation is significant given Pakistan's deep aversion to allowing foreign military forces on its territory. The Special Operations teams join the aid missions only when commanders determine there is relatively little security risk, a senior U.S. military official said, in an effort to avoid direct engagement that would call attention to U.S. participation.Pakistani troops earlier this month in South Waziristan, where the country has tried to quell militant groups..The U.S. troops are allowed to defend themselves and return fire if attacked. But the official emphasized the joint missions aren't supposed to be combat operations, and the Americans often participate in civilian garb.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 98738.html

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 21 Jul 2010 23:21

A_Gupta wrote:
One of the things we need to do is get a little "Indic" mentality back, remove arrogance and false pride and see what a bullshit situation "shining India" is itself in. I have been spending the last few days digging and digging and digging up development statistics about Pakistan and India. India is barely better.
Similar exercise; agreed.

One thing psychology the Pakis use in the internet fora is comparison on development and poverty. Indians are trapped into it and will start giving stats and checking. This is a trap and it is best to ignore this comparison.

The use of words by the Pak internet posters are used carefully which are understood by the western people namely the ignorant Americans so that they also use those terms and references. Check carefully with your American friends if they understand any of them.
Pakis know that Americans are blind on the sub continent and they can be manipulated quite effectiviely.
One of the best role playing which Pakis use the victim role. This is used by the officials very often.
Normal Paki people use close personal relationship with the Americans to build rapo and turn them into anti-India. This is done very sophisticatedly by bringing out "bad things about Hinduism, caste, cows etc"

Some of the common understanding between a Paki and American regarding common views of Indians need to be understood.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jul 2010 23:39

Rather than use stats the best approach is to ask the Reagan question "Are you better off in India or Pakistan?"

Karna_A · Post by **Karna_A** » 22 Jul 2010 00:09

Acharya wrote:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/opi ... 190789.cms
Pak turns tables on India; what does India gain from these talks
20 Jul 2010, 0047 hrs IST,Brahma Chellaney,

What prompted New Delhi this year to resume dialogue with Pakistan, first at the foreign-secretary level and then at the foreignminister level? Mum is the word. Confusion and contradiction marks India’s current Pakistan policy. Just take one example.

On the one hand, New Delhi blames Pakistan’s powerful Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency for “controlling and coordinating” the Mumbai terror attacks “from the beginning to the end.” And on the other hand, it institutes “peace talks” with a Pakistani government whose India policy is controlled by the army and ISI. What does India seek to gain from such talks? Mum again is the word.

The talks are meant to be failures and everyone knows it. The reason is the talks are not between 2 FMs, but between Army of one nation and FM of another nation. Either the 2 armies should talk or 2 FMs should talk.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 22 Jul 2010 00:09

shiv wrote: I was studying the video I have linked carefully to make a point about how one of the questioners uses body language to suggest that the nuclear issue is an echandee issue. But it strikes me that we too, at least on BRF, have our own echandee issues. For example we would like macho military action - smash Pakistan and kill Pakis to make us feel better. I saw a statement where someone said "At least the previous govt did Parakram". So a non war pointless mobilization has now become a point of honor because we have begun to feel so small and impotent about Pakistan. But we are relatively impotent. Why not start seeing things from that viewpoint?

Shiv,

The comedy of selling themselves 'one more time' aside...
that was an amazing video where a Secretary of State was answering
questions that the PM of Pakistan would have floundered on

Parakram has been analyzed by several folks -
the postitives and negatives are detailed here (I am sure you are well aware of this):
Coercive Diplomacy: Operation Parakram: An Evaluation
So, when folks point to Parakram they are neither right nor wrong - unfortunate.

shiv wrote: Oh yes they are going down, but it is slow. Very slow and we will suffer. But we have to take them down without hurting ourselves.

What is the end goal for India viz-a-viz Pakistan. NoPakistan is the end goal.
Them going down means the execution of NoPakistan needs to be handled one way.
Them going up means the execution of NoPakistan needs to be handled another way.
GOI has not defined this end goal, neither have major political parties in India.
This means, at this time Government and most political parties believe in the
the structural integrity of Pakistan.
Only some BRF (and other jingoes) want NoPakistan - that is the gap that needs help bridging

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 22 Jul 2010 00:27

ramana wrote:Rather than use stats the best approach is to ask the Reagan question "Are you better off in India or Pakistan?"

Statistics collected here are primarily for BRF use - to have a quantitative understanding, to the extent that such a thing is possible of just how Pakistan is going downhill. It is in addition to, and not a substitute for, the qualitative understanding that cannot be quantified.

If statistics tell the story well, then sure, they can be used in BRF-led psy-ops. Otherwise the story to use is the Reagan-esque one.

E.g., as the doctor, you tell the family and friends of the patient that he is critically ill. You don't tell them that his pulse, blood pressure, and other vital signs are such-and-such, but nevertheless you know them, it is part of understanding just how critically ill he is.

Karna_A · Post by **Karna_A** » 22 Jul 2010 00:57

A_Gupta wrote:
ramana wrote:Rather than use stats the best approach is to ask the Reagan question "Are you better off in India or Pakistan?"
Statistics collected here are primarily for BRF use - to have a quantitative understanding, to the extent that such a thing is possible of just how Pakistan is going downhill. It is in addition to, and not a substitute for, the qualitative understanding that cannot be quantified.

If statistics tell the story well, then sure, they can be used in BRF-led psy-ops. Otherwise the story to use is the Reagan-esque one.

Comparing India and Pakistan based on just Western statistics is mostly meaningless unless direction is factored in.

Lets say a man P1 jumps from 110th floor of a building. Another man I1 has just gotten off elevator at 80th floor and decides to take a look out of the window. At the time P1 is just outside the window flying downwards, but at that very moment both are at the same eye level.
Does this mean P1 and I1 are essentially in same condition even if the height, weight, temperature, humidity etc. at both levels are same?

At this point the best thing for I1 to do would be not to shake hands but do a TA-TA.

The only difference is in real life a split-second is 10 years and therefore in another 20 years, India would be at 100th floor and TSP would be 10 floors up from the building Dumpster, and as the stench of world's garbage will momentarily open its nostrils and clear its mind, wondering will start as to why the Designed in US, Gifted by KSA, Made-in-China parachute failed and how it will spend the rest of its rotten life sleeping between Somalia and Sudan!

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 22 Jul 2010 01:05

Pulikeshi wrote:
GOI has not defined this end goal, neither have major political parties in India.
This means, at this time Government and most political parties believe in the
the structural integrity of Pakistan.

How do we know that this is the case? Even if this is the case ( with or without the concurrence of the Amrika), at this point of time, no one in India or US will/should admit to this. It has to remain out of public domain or the WKKs will start weeping and rolling on the floors with sticks up their rear ends. Pakis will go ballistic with the help of WKKs, Indian Mujjas and with Destroy-India-Yindoo liberal crowds (of India origin) infesting the western world. This decision and the execution plan can never be disclosed or discussed explicitly. What is the point of such a disclosure.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 22 Jul 2010 01:49

Karna_A wrote: Lets say a man P1 jumps from 110th floor of a building. Another man I1 has just gotten off elevator at 80th floor and decides to take a look out of the window. At the time P1 is just outside the window flying downwards, but at that very moment both are at the same eye level.
Does this mean P1 and I1 are essentially in same condition even if the height, weight, temperature, humidity etc. at both levels are same?

That is why we are focusing on trends and not snapshots.

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 22 Jul 2010 03:21

A MUST MUST MUST Watch...

Najam Sethi, a famous Paki Journalist on how Pathetic they are and how well India did to stand on it's own feet. They should play this loud and clear on Radio Pakiland. Still ROFLMAO!

The best of it starts after :7:35

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 22 Jul 2010 04:17

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2010/07/2 ... storylink=

WASHINGTON – The CIA has named a new head of the CIA's clandestine service, a veteran operative who spent most of his career in Africa and ran the agency's spy operations in Pakistan.Current and former U.S. officials say John Bennett will replace Michael Sulick in one of the most important jobs in the agency.As the former station chief in Pakistan, Bennett oversaw the agency's Predator drone program, which expanded dramatically on his watch.Bennett will be in charge of all clandestine operations. He retired in May but was picked to return to the CIA, leapfrogging several other senior CIA officials who had been angling for the coveted job.The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because the announcement has been made.

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 22 Jul 2010 06:19

EW DELHI: India’s Foreign Minister S.M. Krishna criticised on Wednesday Home Secretary G.K. Pillai’s remarks about an alleged link between the ISI and Mumbai attacks made on the eve of his recent talks with his Pakistani counterpart.

“Mr Pillai could have waited till I came back to issue a statement. Perhaps it would have been wiser if that statement had not been made just on the eve of my visit,” Mr Krishna said in a television interview, making public his displeasure with Mr Pillai for the first time.

Mr Krishna also said that contrary to media reports his recent visit to Pakistan had helped bridge some of the trust deficit between the two countries.

Mr Pillai’s comment was based on an alleged confession of David Coleman Headley, an American mastermind in the Mumbai terror plot. The comments just ahead of Mr Krishna’s visit to Islamabad nearly wrecked the high-profile talks arranged by the prime ministers of the two countries.

Mr Krishna spoke to the media a day after a home ministry notice tersely named a new spokesperson for itself thus signalling to Mr Pillai that his remarks had not found favour with the prime minister’s office and that he should not be speaking to the press.

Immediately after returning from Islamabad Mr Krishna met Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and briefed him about the Pillai episode.

“If I was the home secretary in the government, I would not have spoken about the Headley report,” PTI quoted Mr. Krishna as saying.

“India and Pakistan have to remain engaged to resolve the issues between them as there is no alternative,” Mr. Krishna said. He also said he was “quite satisfied” with his recent Pakistan trip because it had been able to partly bridge the trust deficit, according to PTI.

He said Pakistan’s Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi would visit India by this year-end.

Mr Krishna’s differences with Mr Pillai did not appear to reflect any disagreement over the alleged role of ISI in the Mumbai incident, but over the timing of the revelations.

In fact, India’s National Security Adviser Shivshankar Menon made a somewhat similar observation on Tuesday though he said it more diplomatically.

“Mr Pillai could have waited till I came back to issue a statement. Perhaps it would have been wiser if that statement had not been made just on the eve of my visit,” Mr Krishna said in a separate interview.

Mr Krishna had to face Pakistan’s ire at Mr Pillai’s indiscretion.

“When two foreign ministers are meeting after the Mumbai attack, there was a special significance for this meeting,” he said on Wednesday.

“Everyone who was privy to whatever was happening in government of India ought to have known that the right kind of atmosphere from India’s side should have been created for the talks to go on in a very normal manner, but unfortunately this episode happened,” he added.

“Well, I have had some discussions with the prime minister,” Mr Krishna replied when asked if he had conveyed his dissatisfaction over Mr Pillai’s remarks to Dr Singh.

Mr Krishna, however, also appeared to be critical of Mr Qureshi’s abrasive style in his interaction with the media.

“We should understand the spirit of Thimphu and spirit of Thimphu was to make earnest effort to bring about reconciliation between two countries and I do not want that spirit to be eroded even by a remotest possible way,” he said.

“I think we can put forward any contention that a country can face in a most forceful way but there has to be dignity, there has to be civility and civility is certainly no weakness,” he added.

Agencies add: According to some analysts, Mr Krishna’s remarks showed the barely concealed fissures within the government, exposing a strong division of opinion and perception within the regime on the issue of Pakistan and how to deal with it.

They noted that Mr Krishna’s criticism of Mr Pillai came a day after Mr Menon, in a deliberate move, had endorsed the home secretary’s remarks.

When will our politicians ever realize that washing dirty linen in public is akin to scoring self goals!

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 22 Jul 2010 06:22

26/11 remark: Krishna does a Qureshi on Pillai

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 198372.cms

In a move certain to find support in Pakistan, external affairs minister S M Krishna on Wednesday criticized the timing of home secretary G K Pillai's remarks on the revelations by Lashkar terrorist David Headley, which Pakistan used to sabotage the foreign ministers' meeting last week.

...

In fact, he said, "Everyone who was privy to whatever was happening in government ought to have known that the right kind of atmosphere from India's side should have been created for the talks to go on in a very normal manner, but unfortunately this episode happened." He added that had taken up the matter with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

...

The remarks puzzled many in the government, with many finding it amiss and wondering whether Krishna was being egged on by the ministry mandarins who may be viewing the home ministry's candour on Pakistan's support for terrorism as a foray into a territory MEA thinks it alone can deal with.

The foreign minister's remarks showed up the barely concealed fissures within the government, exposing a strong division of opinion and perception within the regime on the issue of Pakistan and how to deal with it. Krishna's criticism of home secretary Pillai came a day after national security adviser Shiv Shankar Menon, in a deliberate move, endorsed the home secretary's remarks focusing on the terrorist-official nexus as one of the most difficult parts of dealing with Pakistan-sponsored terrorism.

...

The criticism can recoil on the MEA. There is a strong feeling among the top echelons in the government that it did not try to hold enough consultations outside the South Block before Krishna took off for Islamabad. However, it had not so far been articulated. But with the foreign minister launching a public criticism of the home secretary, others may also like casting off their gloves.

What is happening?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Jul 2010 06:29

ramana wrote:Rather than use stats the best approach is to ask the Reagan question "Are you better off in India or Pakistan?"

This is absolutely right - but Reagan was a good politician and motivator and the statement can only carry so far in India. Good to use the statement, but the stats are needed for those in the nitty gritty of seeing what needs to be done in India.

The stats are available for India and Bangladesh - there are many missing years in Pakistan which clearly shows that they have not been paying much attention. No doubt that will come back and bite them - but I would love to make it bite them harder. And having said that the Pakis have not hesitated to use those very stats to say why they are better off.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Jul 2010 06:58

Karna_A wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:
Comparing India and Pakistan based on just Western statistics is mostly meaningless unless direction is factored in.

Lets say a man P1 jumps from 110th floor of a building. Another man I1 has just gotten off elevator at 80th floor and decides to take a look out of the window. At the time P1 is just outside the window flying downwards, but at that very moment both are at the same eye level.
Does this mean P1 and I1 are essentially in same condition even if the height, weight, temperature, humidity etc. at both levels are same?

At this point the best thing for I1 to do would be not to shake hands but do a TA-TA.

I like the analogy - but I think it is possible to do more than just a TA-TA once you start looking at the individual details and direction.

Pakistan's annual budget from all sources is a finite sum of money. Every year they survive by spending 20-40% on defence while spending less on population control adds to a final tally of several million Pakis to be born 10 years down the line. And it adds to the possibility of those Pakis being illiterate with no chance of becoming good engineers to build Pakistan.

Making Pakis spend more on defence (by scaring the crap out of them by things like Parakram, Cold start, MRCA deal, Arihant) adds to the millions of Pakis being added a couple if decades down the line. We have in fact passed that now. P1 has fallen past the window and is now asking for a net to e quickly placed so he can survive.

All those extra illiterate millions have already been born in the last 15 years. Pakis now have 40% of their population under 15 and jihad is in the air. The Paki army is now
1) Still facing India and citing the India threat
2) Being asked to fight their own pals at the Afghan border and inside their own lands in North Wazilristan
3) Is being attacked by their illiterate jihadi pals inside Pakistan

What Pakistan wants now is for the India threat to be reduced. Pakis are telling India - if you stop being such a threat we can try and arrest our slide. This is what I am seeing on Paki liberal sites, and this is exactly what is being asked in the video linked on the previous page.

Pakistanis are saying "We fear India will swallow us up. Get India to stop being so threatening".

What this means is that he Pakistani are saying: "We will continue to be suicidal and either try and pull India down with us, or threaten the US so they can pull India down for us"

The US has helped Pakistan to a certain extent. The US has given Pakistan ships, AMRAAMs and F-16s to help them pull India down (to reduce Pakistan fears?) But the US itself has not managed to actively pull India down - except insofar as its help to Pakistan is concerned. India remains a threat to Pakistan and Indian orders (for C 130, P8I, C 17s and other things) are helping maintain US jobs at a time of some financial difficulty.

The US itself is making pretty much no progress with Pakistan or India. But the US currently has a firm leash on the Pak army.

This is where we stand now.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 22 Jul 2010 07:07

Dont forget and one can still hear Poak1 cursing ,blaiming , abusing P2 in pakjabi while falling down and trying best to reach and hold P2's leg.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Jul 2010 07:23

Prem wrote:Dont forget and one can still hear Poak1 cursing ,blaiming , abusing P2 in pakjabi while falling down and trying best to reach and hold P2's leg.

There is the other issue being discussed in the managing Pakistan's failure thread.

After P1 flattens himself on the ground we still have P2, P3...P170million

What Pakis have already gifted to the world is these 170 million. If those millions were patriotic Pakistanis working for the betterment of Pakistan, India would have been screwed long long ago - because even India does not have 100% Indians working for India. Those Pukis are all headed in various directions - many of them in the direction of blowing themselves up. And even Islam has not united them behind India.

Whatever happens to Poakistan and its army and its leadership these 170-250 million people will still be there and will have to be managed in some way.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Jul 2010 07:31

Ambar wrote: When will our politicians ever realize that washing dirty linen in public is akin to scoring self goals!

No in fact in this case it could be deliberate.

Politicians are survivors and in a country that is firmly pro-Pillai and anti-Krishna why should Krishna say Pillai is wrong and take the criticsim he is inviting from his own countrymen and media? (Heck even Aman ki Asha TOI says "Krishna does a Qureshi on Pillai) What will happen is that it will deflect blame from Pakistan onto someone else - so Krishna (or whoever the Foreign min is) can go and have chai biskoot next time.

The politicians have to take the rap. This episode is the exact opposite of sharm el sheikh. Last time India "gave" but then retracted. This time India is saying "Oh we wanted to give so much - but it was spoilt by Pillai"

If you were not Indian and not cynical about Indian politicos and their party affiliations - you would look at this drama and say "Indians are not giving." Isn't that exactly what we are asking for? But we are asking for that without the drama an suspense. That is not possible because the Pakis would understand and predict the game.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 22 Jul 2010 07:45

Doc ji,
Even in death , Poaks are gonna hand us at least $ 51 Billion Bill to be paid over 10 years. Time to think about how to separate each Branch Of Poak Elite (BOPE) and open preliminary dialogue for their eventual elevation to become and act like Head of their own mini Pakistan. Sindh gets guarrateed water, Baloch Autonomy and security while Pushtoons fulfil their dream of Durand demise and get secured job by getting on the good payrol of Indicians.

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 22 Jul 2010 07:47

derkonig wrote:Aman ki tamasha, that is what Paki-born MMS is doing. NDA atleast did Parakram, banned overflights & essentially made things tough for the Pakis.

Op. Parakram was launched in response to the attack by Pakis on our Parliament. Can you list a few concrete things that it actually accomplished for India? Did the Pakis actually hand over, or at least arrest anyone responsible? As far as I can remember, all it resulted in is the sacking of a general who was "too forward", and an inglorious climbdown by India, culminating in the DDM slurping omelettes with Gola at Agra.

Whatever Thamasha MMS is doing, have accomplished more, even though it is much less than what us jingos would like.

Dan Mazer · Post by **Dan Mazer** » 22 Jul 2010 07:49

abhik wrote:Pillai revelations causing some takleef to US:sources
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/discl ... rces-38688

If the US wanted desperately for India to have talks with and make concessions to pakistan, then why wouldn't they have delayed releasing the Headley confession to India to after the talks? It's hard to believe that they just trusted us not to use the info and scupper the talks.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Jul 2010 07:55

Prem wrote:Doc ji,
Even in death , Poaks are gonna hand us at least $ 51 Billion Bill to be paid over 10 years. Time to think about how to separate each Branch Of Poak Elite (BOPE) and open preliminary dialogue for their eventual elevation to become and act like Head of their own mini Pakistan. Sindh gets guarrateed water, Baloch Autonomy and security while Pushtoons fulfil their dream of Durand demise and get secured job by getting on the good payrol of Indicians.

I would like to see:

1) Demise of Durand line and Pashtunistan
2) Balochistan
3) "Soft borders" in PoK and Indian land route to Afghanistan.
4) I think Sindh and Pakjab are equally bad and will need control.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Jul 2010 07:58

The born across the border brigade continues to shame India.

Krishna should have kept his mouth SHUT.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/270892/Kris ... illai.html

Thursday, July 22, 2010
Krishna takes Pak line, berates Pillai

Pioneer News Service | New Delhi

In remarks that will be music to the ears of Pakistani leadership, External Affairs Minister SM Krishna on Wednesday pulled up Home Secretary GK Pillai for his statement on the role of the ISI in Mumbai terror attacks on the eve of Foreign Minister-level talks between India and Pakistan.

After maintaining a stoic silence at the joint Press conference in Islamabad on July 15 when Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi compared Pillai with terror mastermind Hafiz Saeed, Krishna shamed the Home Secretary by virtually holding him responsible for the collapse of the talks.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Jul 2010 08:04

shnkr wrote:
abhik wrote:Pillai revelations causing some takleef to US:sources
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/discl ... rces-38688
If the US wanted desperately for India to have talks with and make concessions to pakistan, then why wouldn't they have delayed releasing the Headley confession to India to after the talks? It's hard to believe that they just trusted us not to use the info and scupper the talks.

It's just an amreki media game saar.

As per Hillary, they have also given the pakis the transcript of the headley's interrogation. No doubt, holding back some of the juicy bits for causing maximum damage later.

It has been a joint Indo-us effort to undermine the pakis.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 22 Jul 2010 08:07

Nato is here to stay beyond the war’
( Old customers keep paying visist to the the old hag, SeeMyboob Qureshi looked Guboed with Lube)http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... stan-qs-01

ISLAMABAD: The North Atlantic Treaty Organisation has signalled that it aspired to playing a role for bringing about peace in South Asia and its periphery even after its combat mission in Afghanistan. Pakistan would be a key partner in the new role.“We would also stay committed beyond the date our combat mission (in Afghanistan) ends because it is utmost important that we make our contribution to the regional peace and security,” Nato Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said at a joint press conference with Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi after their talks here on Wednesday.Mr Rasmussen, who was on his first visit to Pakistan, however, did not explain how Nato intended to ensure peace and security in the region.
Although Nato has since long been talking of staying committed to Afghanistan after the withdrawal of Western troops, it was probably the first time that the secretary-general spoke of a role for the entire region and not just of a partnership with post-conflict Afghanistan.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Jul 2010 08:07

The most encouraging thing I see is the manner in which Indians are rallying against criticism of Pillai. I am sure the politicos know what they are going - they are old hands and karodpatis to boot - but the sort signal that goes out to the US and Pakistan is interesting.

Lets see what the BJP says.. but that is OT here

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 22 Jul 2010 08:09

A_Gupta _> to understand the reliability of Statistics about the Paki nation on the internet. Check say 1999 report , 2003 report , 2007 report and 2010.

You will always see the 1999 report claiming that poverty was 26% now 19%.
In 2003 it will say poverty in 1999 was 26% now 19%.
in 2009 it will Asif Zardari will say poverty was 26% in 2003 now 19%.
These reports will ignore other reports where it says since 2007 onwards 80% of Pakistanis are struggling for thier daily nutrition needs. Read for ex. why is there a 1 dish restriction and for normal Mango Pakistanis the power cuts are bad by Indian standards.

Further, no census has been done in Pakistan for the last 3 decades. so all the data given out regarding Pakistan performanced and trends are basically done in a/c rooms with no hard data.

P.s CNBC pakistan was predicting that IT revenue would be 1 billion by 2003 in 2000. the actuals were around 5% of that.

And as pointed there were huge loopholes in the MPI calculationused by Oxfam. They need such numbers for contiuing to collect funds for Charity purposes?- influence.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 22 Jul 2010 08:12

Equitable water-sharing
http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=252078

Perhaps he is unaware that, as a result of the sharp decrease in the flow of Indus water downstream, nearly three million acres of land in Sindh have been swallowed up by the advancing sea. Agriculture is a thing of the past in these areas, where the population has no water to drink. During funerals even seawater has to be used for bathing the dead. A few days ago, I received a telephone call from a grower in Punjab who claimed that Sindh had produced its own data on water shortages and Sindh's member in IRSA had manipulated the actual data. Asked to give details, he said he had received the information from someone. In other words, he questioned the 1991 Water Accord on the basis of hearsay, ignoring protests in Sindh against the opening of the Chashma-Jhelum link canal.Mr Shafqat Masood has objected why an IRSA member from Balochistan was reported as being Punjabi-speaking by a former secretary of irrigation of Sindh. And this after a federal member in IRSA came under criticism as a representative of Sindh's growers, because he was domiciled in Sindh. As if all employees of the federal government are not from one or the other province of Pakistan.
According to a report of the Federal Committee on Agriculture (FCA), Punjab has achieved its target of cotton-sowing by 102 per cent, whereas Sindh has missed its target by more than 15 per cent. Sindh had to face a water shortage of 41 per cent against Punjab, which received 25 per cent less water than its allocation. This happened from April 1 to June 30, which was crucial for the kharif season in the province

( If Sindhi has little brain and self respect left , they should ask big brother India Billion Dollar aid to bring water via canal system directly to them)

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 22 Jul 2010 08:22

A letter to Mrs Sonia Gandhi —Funny Khan Pitafi
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2010_pg3_5

It is true that neither the US nor any other power can actually force India to resume the peace process. And even if someone could pressure India, would the outcome ever be worth calling genuine peace? I think not. And the Indian government, I understand, is under severe pressure from the hardliners not to resume the dialogue process. I know it is not easy to move beyond the Mumbai attacks but here are my two cents worth on the matter. The Pakistani government would have been in a far better position to either stop the attacks or then to go after the terrorists responsible for the ghastly acts had the composite dialogue mechanism still been in place and delivering. Candidly speaking, Pakistan has so many issues of its own that a majority of the country cannot afford the luxury of hating its neighbours. In their heart of hearts, even our critics of India also know that, one day, peace has to be built between the two countries.
It is often argued that India is the main reason why Pakistan has not been able to evolve into a stable democracy. The argument goes like this: Indian refusal to accept the reality of Pakistan’s creation was the first existential threat to the nascent state. And since this threat was only too powerful, this country had to build a considerably bigger security infrastructure. And, given the relative weight of the new defence establishment, it was only a matter of time before the military dictators seized control. I do not know what to make of this theory but I have never been able to satisfactorily refute it. It is time that people like me, who believe in real peace, find more convincing arguments against the cynics.

( Go and do darkhast to your fauj Mia, we can implant brain in Paki head, Kiyani is real Head of Pakistan and sysmbolic of your rape )

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Jul 2010 08:28

shiv wrote:The most encouraging thing I see is the manner in which Indians are rallying against criticism of Pillai. I am sure the politicos know what they are going - they are old hands and karodpatis to boot - but the sort signal that goes out to the US and Pakistan is interesting.

Lets see what the BJP says.. but that is OT here

Doc,

This is possibly one line that the BJP might take.

Krishna is on a very short leash. High time that he went home and took up his clothes designing and darji business again. Too bad that he had to get his designer langote mixed up in a turf war between PC and MMS

His son in law's cafe coffee day has ambitious plans in pakiland.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/270835/Sham ... istry.html

Thursday, July 22, 2010
Shameful sophistry

The Pioneer Edit Desk

India deserves far better than SM Krishna

What Minister for External Affairs SM Krishna flaunts as “civility” in the face of provocative comments by Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi increasingly appears to be timidity — some would prefer to use the word cowardice — and not what he pretends it is. Nothing else explains why Mr Krishna should have publicly rebuked the Home Secretary, Mr GK Pillai, for briefing the media about what the Chicago-based Lashkar-e-Tayyeba operative David Coleman Headley has told Indian investigators in the presence of FBI agents. The Government of India has long maintained, on the basis of evidence it has provided to the Government of Pakistan and shared with other countries, that the ISI had a direct role in the 26/11 terrorist attack on Mumbai. That finding has been corroborated by what Headley has told Indian investigators: The ISI was involved in orchestrating the carnage from the beginning till the end. And this is precisely what Mr Pillai told mediapersons. He was correct in doing so as the people of this country have the right to know who were behind the ghastly blood-letting. If that upsets the Pakistanis or offends the Americans, so be it. Given Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s strange obsession to appease Pakistan at any cost because America desires so, it is not surprising that the PMO and its virtual adjunct, the Ministry of External Affairs, should feel enraged that the truth about 26/11 should have become public knowledge; left to Mr Singh and Mr Krishna, it would have remained a secret — ever since the UPA came to power in 2004, foreign policy has been conducted by keeping the people of India in the dark although the Prime Minister claims to be acting on their behalf. We have been witness to Parliament being misled by a Government eager to conclude agreements without taking anybody into confidence, most noticeably when the India-US civil nuclear cooperation deal was being negotiated; that mindset remains unchanged with the Prime Minister keen to go down in history as a ‘peace-maker’ regardless of the price paid by the nation.

It is, therefore, not entirely surprising that Mr Krishna should have glossed over the obnoxious behaviour of Mr Qureshi during his recent visit to Islamabad for what was touted as “talks to reduce the trust deficit”. Nor should it amaze anybody that he failed to rebuke Mr Qureshi when the Pakistani Foreign Minister compared Mr Pillai to the chief terrorist of LeT, Hafiz Mohammed Saeed. In hindsight, Mr Krishna’s silence was not that of a person too polite to join issue with an irascible upstart, but of a person who lacks the courage to speak up for India. As much has been proven on Wednesday. Within hours of the US expressing its ‘displeasure’ over Headley’s damning indictment of the ISI being made public, Mr Krishna, dropping his mask, has unleashed a vitriolic attack on Mr Pillai, a bureaucrat with a far more impressive track record than that of a cynical politician. This is clearly a command performance with three intentions. First, to protect American interests. Second, to ensure the Prime Minister’s mission is not derailed. Third, to keep the Pakistani Government in good humour. There’s a fourth purpose too: To put down Union Home Minister P Chidambaram who, unlike Mr Singh and his factotums, takes a more realistic view about Pakistan’s intentions and has no agenda other than protecting India’s national interest. It’s a shame and a pity that things should have come to such a sorry pass.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 22 Jul 2010 08:41

Prem wrote:A letter to Mrs Sonia Gandhi —Funny Khan Pitafi
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2010_pg3_5
It is true that neither the US nor any other power can actually force India to resume the peace process. And even if someone could pressure India, would the outcome ever be worth calling genuine peace? I think not.

Funny that they want to send terrorist to hit the cities and they want to talk about peace process. All at the same time.

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 22 Jul 2010 08:47

abhishek_sharma wrote:26/11 remark: Krishna does a Qureshi on Pillai

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 198372.cms

In a move certain to find support in Pakistan, external affairs minister S M Krishna on Wednesday criticized the timing of home secretary G K Pillai's remarks on the revelations by Lashkar terrorist David Headley, which Pakistan used to sabotage the foreign ministers' meeting last week.

...

In fact, he said, "Everyone who was privy to whatever was happening in government ought to have known that the right kind of atmosphere from India's side should have been created for the talks to go on in a very normal manner, but unfortunately this episode happened." He added that had taken up the matter with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

...

The remarks puzzled many in the government, with many finding it amiss and wondering whether Krishna was being egged on by the ministry mandarins who may be viewing the home ministry's candour on Pakistan's support for terrorism as a foray into a territory MEA thinks it alone can deal with.

The foreign minister's remarks showed up the barely concealed fissures within the government, exposing a strong division of opinion and perception within the regime on the issue of Pakistan and how to deal with it. Krishna's criticism of home secretary Pillai came a day after national security adviser Shiv Shankar Menon, in a deliberate move, endorsed the home secretary's remarks focusing on the terrorist-official nexus as one of the most difficult parts of dealing with Pakistan-sponsored terrorism.

...

The criticism can recoil on the MEA. There is a strong feeling among the top echelons in the government that it did not try to hold enough consultations outside the South Block before Krishna took off for Islamabad. However, it had not so far been articulated. But with the foreign minister launching a public criticism of the home secretary, others may also like casting off their gloves.

What is happening?

This is the perfect5 example of "The inmates are running the asylum".
When you have weak PM who no one cares or has any respect, his cabinet members keep looking at the hijras in the press and react to the chatter. The national interest is the last in their minds.

Advani did not call this guy "Weakest PM in the history of India".

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 22 Jul 2010 08:47

Acharya wrote:Funny that they want to send terrorist to hit the cities and they want to talk about peace process. All at the same time.

That's what is known as 'Talking with a gun to the head'. While dealing with the 3½, Pakistan puts the gun to its own head and puts it at our head when dealing with us.