MRCA News and Discussion

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 21 Jul 2010 00:22

Kanan wrote: Was Super Hornet's high alpha manouveres better than Rambha? Just Curious...................

The Super Hornet has no TVC engines. Whatever alpha it achieves, it does it with this constraint and its quite a sight. IMO, no non-TVC fighter can do reach such high AoA as the SHornet.

Devesh Rawal · Post by **Devesh Rawal** » 21 Jul 2010 03:32

And more news on the SH from Farnborough:

The most visible change is an externally mounted pod mounted on the Super Hornet's centreline hardpoint. The pod is able to carry either a mix of two Mk82-class bombs and two AIM-120 missiles, or four AIM-120 missiles.
The external pod would help to reduce the Super Hornet's radar cross-section by removing missiles and bombs from external hard poin

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... pment.html

Four AIM-120 eh? Now we are in MKI territory - with an BVR salvo of multiple missiles?

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 21 Jul 2010 06:38

I'd still rather have the Rafale.

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 21 Jul 2010 07:45

Kartik wrote:BTW, over the weekend I got to witness a C-17, Super Hornet and Viper demo (both clean). This is the second time I’m seeing them in action and again, the SHornet’s high alpha passes and controllability at extremely low speeds was the hallmark, whereas the Viper was all about extremely fast low passes, followed by very quick climb right into the vertical and plenty of very high, almost 9g- turns and only one short high alpha low speed pass. Clearly exhibited their strong points. Both were very noisy, very imposing, especially the Viper. Made it quite clear that at least kinematically speaking, the F-16 Block 60 will be a very strong contender.

When seen from up close the size difference is quite apparent..The Shornet being much larger and imposing than the F-16 (saw 3, one in Aggressor camo), which is surprisingly small for such a mythic fighter. And one more thing- the Super Hornet twin seater actually looks very good from up close, something that fails to come through in pictures. Excellent build quality on both, and the SHornet is sturdy as a truck with the landing gear really looking very beefy and strong as compared to the F-16 and F-15 nearby with their spindly girly leg like landing gear. There is even a slip-preventive rough textured pad on the LERX right next to the cockpit for the pilot to stand on. I fully expected a “NO STEP” sign there, but then realized that for the second pilot, after the ladder, he’ll need to walk on that LERX to be able to get inside the cockpit.

Hi Kartik,
Were/are you at Farnborough or where was this ?

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 21 Jul 2010 07:48

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE66J0S020100720

reluctant arms firms agreed to cough up the funds to develop a new radar for the plane to boost exports.

. . .

Eurofighter said earlier it would put an unspecified amount into a new radar for the plane together with a specialist radar consortium led by Finmeccanica.

The fighter group said it aimed to have the new actively scanned electronic radar on the multirole aircraft by 2015.

The move and its timing were both designed to position the European plane for a contest to supply 126 fighter jets to India, one of the world's most sought-after defence deals.

How can they evaluate the radar when development is just now starting in earnest?

While I might call 2015 'optimistic', the reality is that even if they meet that target, it will be a buggy, limited release, as all highly complex software systems are.

By the time all the kinks get worked out, one might wonder what the point of the MRCA was to begin with.

The other point that I have made before is that the most limiting aspect of a fighter's future capability is not its kinetics, it is its support. Can the manufacturer provide updates to keep it relevant?

The future of the EF does not look promising. Italy just confirmed they were cancelling Tranche 3B and the UK has been trying to do the same for some time. But even beyond that, the sponsoring governments have flat out refused to fund something as basic as AESA for well over a decade. That does not bode well for ANY future upgrades.

While the EF has potential, it seems like a plane that isn't ready now and won't be competitive in the future.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 21 Jul 2010 12:38

Eurofighter Firms to Fund AESA Development for 9 Months

The development work is being undertaken by Euroradar, the consortium led by Italy’s Selex Galileo and including EADS and Spain’s Indra. Euroradar also worked on the mechanically scanned Captor radar now used on the aircraft.

Euroradar plans to use the existing back end of the aircraft’s radar, as well as existing cooling and power systems, then add new e-scan transmit and receiver modules. The modules would be delivered in 2013 for test flights that year, with entry into service in 2015.

“The 2015 schedule is needed to match the Indian requirement,” said Casolini, although officials did not rule out India receiving a first batch of Eurofighters with mechanically scanned radars that could be later upgraded.

The plan is complicated by the fact that the UK this year started its own e-scan development program with Selex Galileo, using Selex TR modules, which also envisages test flights in 2013. Casolini said the two paths being followed by the UK could merge.

This is a downer...

The new radar would use gallium arsenide in its modules, despite industry predictions that gallium nitride will one day offer higher performance.

“Gallium arsenide will not be beaten on cost,” he said. “We will be using it for a long time.”

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Jul 2010 13:02

The "Euros" 9 month funding is in hope of being shortlisted for the MMRCA.They are at a disadvantage when compared with most of their rivals.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 21 Jul 2010 13:49

Super Hornet mods added to export list

This is the Next Generation cockpit, which brings to the F-18 the large (11- by 19-inch) one-piece, touchscreen display, seen previously only on the Lockheed Martin F-35. Such a display helps improve the fused presentation of the integrated sensor suite that is already a big Super Hornet feature. The new cockpit could be made available for deliveries in 2013, according to Shelley Lavender, Boeing’s vice-president Global Strike Systems.

The other enhancements would be available from 2015, she said. These include the enclosed weapons pod, which would be carried on the centerline station, and may possibly be partially faired into the fuselage. It is sized for four AIM-120 AMRAAMs, but can also take air-to-ground weapons.

Conformal fuel tanks can straddle the upper fuselage, and confer an additional 10 percent range, according to Lavender. An enhanced performance engine (EPE) version of the GE F414 would provide a 20-percent increase in thrust. India has requested this extra power.

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 22 Jul 2010 02:14

Kartik wrote:
Kanan wrote: Was Super Hornet's high alpha manouveres better than Rambha? Just Curious...................
The Super Hornet has no TVC engines. Whatever alpha it achieves, it does it with this constraint and its quite a sight. IMO, no non-TVC fighter can do reach such high AoA as the SHornet.

Thanx for the reply!

I was just curious.........

I have been crooning for Hornet for sometime! If unkil gives source code and requisite ToT, then S.Hornet is the way to go! S.Hornet will be a good replacement for MiG-27 and Jaguar for the next 20 years!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Jul 2010 03:37

Boeing :: The Strike Fighter Evolution

Slide 6 has a drawing of the proposed F-18 with conformal tanks.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Jul 2010 03:42

Boeing well positioned for future strike-fighter market

Lavender used the F-15SE Silent Eagle and new F/A-18 Super Hornet International Road Map configuration as examples of how Boeing is responding to new customer needs in a low-risk manner.

The Silent Eagle completed two key milestones – first flight and first weapons release from its conformal weapons bay – in the weeks leading up to the air show.

Journalists today got their first glimpse at the new Super Hornet International Road Map, which builds on the proven F/A-18E/F with conformal fuel tanks, enhanced performance engines, enclosed weapons pod and other systems.

“Both of these evolutionary systems respond to the needs of our international customers by offering increased survivability, performance and situational awareness, along with the air dominance of the F-15 and compelling value proposition of the F/A-18,” Lavender said.

Many of the technologies associated with the Silent Eagle and Super Hornet International Road Map will be keys to a host of next-generation strike-fighter opportunities, Lavender said. Those programs include the U.S. Navy’s Unmanned Carrier Launched Surveillance and Strike, or UCLASS; the Navy and Air Force Next Generation Air Dominance programs; the U.S. Air Force T-X Advanced Training System; and the USAF Long Ranger Persistent Strike.

“Next-generation strike fighter capabilities will be defined by our customers, but one element will be foundational – affordability,” Lavender said. “Our customers will demand advanced capability without having to sacrifice their force structure. To meet that demand, we need to balance technology, risk and affordability. We have the plan to do just that.”

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 22 Jul 2010 05:06

Vishal Jolapara wrote:Hi Kartik,
Were/are you at Farnborough or where was this ?

No Vishal, this was at McChord AFB.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 22 Jul 2010 14:22

Aircraft firms sweeten deal for IAF

Udayan pathak · Post by **Udayan pathak** » 22 Jul 2010 14:31

"The final decision on the specific aircraft to be purchased will be political in nature and may only be taken at the end of 2012," the report said. It also claimed that if the Russian MiG is kept out of the final phase, "there might be a decision to buy 50-60 of them outside the tender process.

Mig 35??

Also slightly OT but since the T-50 FGFA joint venture is not finalised yet, is it safe to assume that it will happen only once a winner from MMRCA is selected and some of the TOT that will be acquired will go into the Indo russian partnership?

Reqest to admins/mods: please change my user name to just pathak.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 22 Jul 2010 17:49

Pitching the Gripen with Football and Tailhooks

arya · Post by **arya** » 22 Jul 2010 22:39

July 22 , AVIA.RU - " Rosoboronexport " about the chances for Russia to withdraw MiG- 35 in the Indian market as high , RIA Novosti .

" We have successfully passed the stages of testing in India and Russia and hope to get a short list ( of bidders ) " , - said the deputy director of Rosoboronexport , Alexander Mikheyev.

" In the future we hope to get to the tender and ready to participate in this topic , " - he said .

In August 2007 , India announced a tender to supply 126 fighter jets , valued at some $ 11 billion . In the fight for a contract involving the French aircraft maker Dassault Aviación with fighter Rafale , the U.S. Lockheed Martin with F- 16 " Falcon " and " Boeing " , fielded F- 18 Super Hornet . Swedish SAAB is offering its latest " flu " , and the European consortium EADS combining aircraft manufacturers of Great Britain , Germany, Spain and Italy - Eurofighter .
http://www.avia.ru/news/?id=1279781853

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 22 Jul 2010 22:53

arya wrote:July 22 , AVIA.RU - " Rosoboronexport " about the chances for Russia to withdraw MiG- 35 in the Indian market as high , RIA Novosti .
http://www.avia.ru/news/?id=1279781853

A wrong translation I think: needed to be translated as 'to lead MiG-35 to the Indian market'.

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 22 Jul 2010 23:32

New Typhoon helmets:
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... ystem.html

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 23 Jul 2010 00:01

new decoy for Gripen NG being looked at..there will be a long period of the Gripen Demo prototype being grounded while it is transformed into the avionics test bed. Cockpit layout is also likely to change..expect something quite impressive since Saab excels in this field.

link

By Robert Wall [email protected]
FARNBOROUGH

Saab is continuing along the road to fully defining — and will soon make an important supplier decision on — its next-generation (NG) fighter’s self-protection suite.

The Gripen NG will have a fiber-optic towed decoy as a baseline subsystem to help defeat radar-guided missile threats. A towed decoy is only an option on the current model, but the supplier choice is pending for the subsystem on the NG, says Eddy de la Motte, a Gripen International program official.

Meanwhile, Saab is currently trying out different cockpit concepts for what the avionics setup should look like. That process also is expected to wrap up soon. Having completed two trial periods with the Gripen NG demonstrator, the aircraft will now go into a layup period to be modified into an avionics testbed. The aircraft is expected to return to flight next year, de la Motte says. The demonstrator so far has logged 175 flight hours.

In turn, Gripen officials are keeping a close watch on the international marketplace, where they are tracking 17 countries for potential sales opportunities. A couple more opportunities are expected to emerge this year.

But competition remains heated, with possible new entrants such as the Chinese-Pakistani JF-17. Gripen officials say they have seen no impact from the appearance of the JF-17 on the scene yet. However, one company official acknowledges “we have to watch the JF-17 as well.”

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 23 Jul 2010 00:54

Two little EF tidbits

FARN10: Eurofighter boasts Typhoon reign over F-35

In an internal simulation series, Eurofighter found that four Typhoons supported by an airborne warning and control system (AWACS) defeated 85% of attacks by eight F-35s carrying an internal load of two joint direct attack munitions (JDAMs) and two air-to-air missiles, Penrice says.

According to Laurie Hilditch, Eurofighter's head of future requirements capture, the F-35's frontal-aspect stealth can be defeated by stationing interceptors and AWACS at a 25º to 30º angle to the F-35's most likely approach path to a target.

So EF claims they can beat the F-35 if
a) The F-35 is in A2G instead of A2A mode.
b) You know when and where the F-35 will be.
c) You have an AWACS to back you up.

And it's not even clear what 'defeat an attack' means. It doesn't necessarily mean shot down, it could just mean driven off.

U.S. Saudi Sale Is Said to Approach $30 Billion Including 84 F-15 Fighters

A proposed U.S. arms sale to Saudi Arabia will include 84 new Boeing Co. F-15 fighter jets

Ok, not directly related the EF, but it's curious they're buying more F-15s after ordering so many EFs.

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 23 Jul 2010 07:18

SAAB Gripen NG

Not sure if this is the correct thread to post this photo in but, in the background are 6 PAF F-16's parked at Lajes enroute Red Flag 2010 - July 14, 2010.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 24 Jul 2010 02:57

Saab hits back at Gripen NG "paper plane" criticism

article link to Flight Global

They're confident that the Gripen NG will make it to the next list in the MRCA competition.

steve · Post by **steve** » 24 Jul 2010 06:54

GeorgeWelch wrote:

U.S. Saudi Sale Is Said to Approach $30 Billion Including 84 F-15 Fighters

Ok, not directly related the EF, but it's curious they're buying more F-15s after ordering so many EFs.

Now that is good point. Why should Saudi's go for 84 F-15's when they have almost the same number of Eurofighter typhoons?????? Clearly it is a political call. We all know that Eurofigher can win over F-15 hand's down.

Just look at the size of the contract....................$30 billion

ofcourse the contract includes not just fighter aircraft's but, every thing like F- 15s, helicopters, ships and missile-defense systems.

If MRCA contract which may be is between $10 to $12 billion........and is so much talked about for its size of the contract....... then what should be said about Saudi's contract which is a mind blowing $30 billion

.

johnny_m · Post by **johnny_m** » 24 Jul 2010 08:51

The F 15 later variants are still better than the Typhoon in many aspects including A2G. In fact one could argue that in the current global climate strike missions take precedence, which may be the reason why the Saudis are going for more F 15s now. They have so much money and can order more Typhoons in the future if they want.

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 24 Jul 2010 08:54

CF-18 just crashed at an Alberta Airport,
Exclusive Video & Story here - http://www.vancouversun.com/news/crashe ... story.html

This is the most troubling photo i have seen in a long time

More troubling photos here - http://photoblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20 ... et-crashes

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 24 Jul 2010 08:55

Is KSA getting the normal F-15s or the F-15E/SE?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Jul 2010 09:30

In view of the increasing threat in the region from Pak and China,with the need for about 200+ MMRCA aircraft required,as several of the types ins ervice are being upgraded which will gvie them about another decade of life,a sensible answer (both practically and politically)might be what has been reported-splitting the requirement,with an extra 60+ MIG-35s,making about 100-120+ of the type (35/29UG) easy to induct and operate,plus the advantages of a western fighter with new tec including AESA radars,for the 120+ of the order.Additional aircraft could be acquired depending upon which the force prefers after using both,by which time,Flanker production will have ceased,LCA hipefully onstream for the "low end and the 5th-gen fighter production starting to replace Flanker prod.If such a scenario takes place,then a single-engined fighter could suffice for the MMRCA deal and the Gripen both in price and capability becomes very attractive.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Jul 2010 09:42

Vishal Jolapara wrote:CF-18 just crashed at an Alberta Airport,
Exclusive Video & Story here - http://www.vancouversun.com/news/crashe ... story.html

This is the most troubling photo i have seen in a long time
http://www.newsvine.com/_vine/images/us ... 739046.jpg

More troubling photos here - http://photoblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20 ... et-crashes

That is a great advert for the ejection seat!

Ejecting while an aircraft is low and going down is fraught with risk. That pilot has survived!! And may he recover fully.

negi · Post by **negi** » 24 Jul 2010 09:53

Good thing is AC was banked at an angle(may be it was deliberate) at the time of ejection so he landed at a safe distance away from the fireball.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jul 2010 10:02

Arnt ejection seat smart enough and can change direction depending on how low and slow the crash happened ?
I have seen K-36 ejection seat changing direction depending on how low/slow the crash happened to prevent the scenario of pilot landing on the fireball of crash.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Jul 2010 10:12

Those pics highlight the dangers inherent in the fighter flying business....God knows what can go wrong in a split second.....

Luxtor · Post by **Luxtor** » 24 Jul 2010 11:36

About this CAF F-18 crash... It looks like the pilot was demonstrating a low and slow pass capability, for what reason, I don't know, it doesn't seem to have any practical use in combat for this flight mode. But when he was demonstrating this and he wanted to push the throttle back up to speed up, the two engines didn't respond quickly enough, especially the right engine since the the aircraft banked right just before nose diving. He was at a very high angle of attack too so airflow into the intakes might not have been adequate. It looked like this was an older generation F-18, not the super hornet, so the intakes are smaller and are not slanted. Maybe he thought he could imitate the Su-30MKI and do a Cobra.

In any case, I'm glad he ejected safely.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 24 Jul 2010 12:17

johnny_m wrote:The F 15 later variants are still better than the Typhoon in many aspects including A2G.

So not only is the EF ground-attack capability still not up to par, it isn't likely to get there in the next several years either.

I say that because 84 F-15s are going to take several years to deliver.

johnny_m wrote:In fact one could argue that in the current global climate strike missions take precedence

It certainly is an important, even critical, ability to have. I wonder how that will affect it's evaluation in India?

Carl_T wrote: Is KSA getting the normal F-15s or the F-15E/SE?

My understanding is something similar to the F-15SG.

Luxtor wrote: It looked like this was an older generation F-18, not the super hornet, so the intakes are smaller and are not slanted.

Indeed, Canada doesn't operate the SH.

(Australia is the only current export customer.)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Jul 2010 13:58

negi wrote:Good thing is AC was banked at an angle(may be it was deliberate) at the time of ejection so he landed at a safe distance away from the fireball.

Negi that is actually a highly dangerous situation because ejecting to one side actually prevents the seat from gaining enough altitude to allow safe billowing of the chute and at low levels that could be fatal.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Jul 2010 14:00

Austin wrote:Arnt ejection seat smart enough and can change direction depending on how low and slow the crash happened ?
I have seen K-36 ejection seat changing direction depending on how low/slow the crash happened to prevent the scenario of pilot landing on the fireball of crash.

If you mean change direction as in turning, no they do not change direction.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 24 Jul 2010 15:28

The armament manufacturers in Europe are against the wall.With a smaller defence budget, lots of duplication in R&D and no client states to sell weapons to, they are falling behind Unkil in a big way.
There have been calls to cooperate in armament production from almost everyone..In fact European defence agency, OCCAR, LoI ...all are institutions attempting to do the same...

India can really benefit from this in a big way...If it plays its cards well.
In fact in a decade we can bring home almost all the high tech of Europe...
I hope the people running the nation are smart enough to see that.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jul 2010 15:31

Shiv i remember reading the interview of designer of Russian Zvezda bureau long time back ,where he claimed the ejection mechanism of K-36 were microprocessor controlled and the seat would just fly away ( some kind of intelligent controlled trajectory/program built in ) from the falling aircraft no matter the speed or altitude of the aircraft and would keep the pilots away from falling on the fireball.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 24 Jul 2010 15:52

RSoami wrote:T
India can really benefit from this in a big way...If it plays its cards well.
In fact in a decade we can bring home almost all the high tech of Europe...
I hope the people running the nation are smart enough to see that.

The question sir, is not if we can get it, its whether we can absorb it. HAL has shown a marked tendency to the contrary.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 24 Jul 2010 16:18

@ Tanaji
So much doubting is not ok sirji...our stars are on the rise...we should be more confident...
(M a noob ..

)

I was reading somewhere that BAE has already sold its stakes in EADS..brought down it shares in Saab from 35 to 20 % and bought two huge companies in US...Its like rats leaving a sinking ship..
Sorry..I guess this is all off topic.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jul 2010 17:30

cnn.com has the entire video of this crash. As Shiv stated a great ad for the plane.