Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2010

[KLNMurthy]

I don't understand all the intellectual gymnastics to justify the actions in Islamabad (Krisha)and Delhi (Pillai). I look at it as just a happenstance of two parts of the GOI acting independently of one another without any coordination. The consequence being just a road kill in terms of the discussion in Islamabad.

So sit back and get back to regular programming till the next round of Chai and biskut session.

I tend to agree. I would add that, because the foundations of our dealings with Pak are so far removed from the objective reality and truth, said reality & truth have a way of popping up unexpectedly and randomly and causing disruption in the agenda. Pillai's statement & fallout etc can be understood as truth rearing its ugly and inconvenient head.

[shiv]

I have been watching this drama of talks with TSP for almost ten years on BRF. What I do notice is that every time talks are bout to take place BRF goes on Hyper drive talking of surrender to TSP (normal times its only overdrive WRT TSP in terms of bashing it ) . Interestingly TSP also thinks the same way, that India will surrender to it. But when the talks are mid way or 3/4th over it become clear to TSP that no Surrender is going to happen.

What is equally amusing is that at the end when Kashmir is not handed on a platter there is dismay that Pakistan was not smashed as would have been done if someone else (my aunt with a new d***) had been in government.

Fact is we are going to keep talking. Terrorism or no terrorism. Or perhaps there will be a break if there is another terror attack but after the break - back to talks.

As I see it there is collusion between India and the US. It is not the collusion of allies, but collusion of circumstances.

The US wants (in the following order)
1) That the nukes should not be moved
2) The Paki army should fight its allies
3) That "democracy" is maintained so they have a fig leaf for pushing money into Pakistan

Paki nukes are under control of the Paki army. I do not believe that they are totally nuke nude. The one thing that will get the Pakis to move nukes is war with India. Nukes can get stolen and diverted when they are moved. There may be people within the Pakistani army who want to do that and are waiting for just such an opportunity. War with India was easier to avert in the Parakram days. It is less easy to avert with cold start.

After Mumbai the US cannot as India to go easy on "cold start". At best the US can try and "foster peace". So the US is doing its best to foster peace. Fostering peace means less US ch**tiyapanti with India, but the quid pro quo is that India should not start war.

India is happy not to start war as long as there is no terror. Will there be no terror????

Pakistan, the US and India each have ways of putting their fingers in the backsides of the other two nations and the dram we see IMO is exactly the actions of people who have someone else's finger up their backsides and are reacting by fingering another entity's backside.

This is Russian roulette in real life. If Pakistan keep conducting successful attacks at some stage down the line all bets will be off.

JMHO

[Dilbu]

If Pakistan keep conducting successful attack at some stage down the line all bets will be off.

After 26/11 GoI has successfully managed to raise the bar of patience from india's side. I shudder to think how many Indians will have to die in an attack next time before even a dossier will be prepared. Impotence thy name is chanakiangiri. ackthoo.

[Dipanker]

--- Deleted ---

[Philip]

The current NSA is a camp follower of MMS,specially picked by him,as he has been indispensable in charting India towards US shores.The current dispensation appears to be divided into two camps,those desperate to get their "diplomas" from the US,willing to sell India every which way,and those determined to stop MMS.As has been well said,GK Pillai has done the country signal service,even if the US is unhappy about the revelations which shows that they were keeping matters quiet so that they could continue to support rent-boy Pak!
The entire fiasco shows that we cannot trust MMS,the US and the Pakis in that order.At least with the Pakis we know they hate our guts and want to wrench Kashmir from our hold.MMS and his cronies are behaving like Yanqui agents,doing their bidding and fulfilling exactly what they want.

[RajeshA]

Pratyush ji,

you're talking about the issue of what should be in the gamut of talks between India and Pakistan, and if India allows too much then it is considered a sell-off in some quarters.

Here the issue, is what is being bargained, what is on the table. And it is not some piece of land in the North, or some water flowing down the Indus. A Prime Minister has some leeway there. Whether it is a sell-off or not is a subjective matter. But if on the table is the Truth itself over an attack on India, then it is a different matter.

What Pakistan did on 26/11 in Mumbai was an Act of War. This is not a question of Terrorism any more. It was an Act of War. Mr. G.K. Pillai's revelation attests to that. This is also not some 'general opinion' without sufficient basis. This is now based on evidence.

The Question is, whether MMS was willing to conceal an Act of War on India, by using it as a bargaining chip. If it is an Act of War, then MMS has no business doing talking with Pakistan, unless it is for the purpose of reading to Pakistan our terms of Pakistan's surrender. MMS is bound by his oath to respond if not in kind, then at least with a similar severity. Secondly he cannot bargain away the truth. That much the Indian Law owes to the families of the deceased - that they learn the truth about who was behind this horrendous sin.

If the ones responsible are non-state actors in Pakistan, then one could buy that bringing the perpetrators to justice is a matter of discussions between the two governments. But if the perpetrator is the State of Pakistan itself, then the Prime Minister of India is bound by his oath to bring the accused to justice through war or through Pakistan's surrender of all involved and appropriate compensation.

What some people on BRF tend to forget is, that there is a huge difference whether on the one hand we all are confident that Pakistan's ISI was behind the attack depending on our experiences with the country, or on the other hand there is clinching evidence against the Pakistani State. Don't mix up the two!

Taking the second case as just some new little turn in the story of Dilli Billi is IMHO grossly demeaning for our nation.

[shiv]

So, today, one cannot simply dismiss that there is no such thing as 'good' or 'bad' Taliban, as defined by the PA.

I think good Taliban and bad Taliban are very clear. Good Taliban are anti-India alone and are under control of the Paki army.

Bad Taliban are against others as well and are not necessarily under control of Paki army.

LeT, JeM etc are all part of good Taliban. Baloch separatists, Pashtun nationalists who are hitting Paki army fro colluding with the US are "bad Taliban"


I think the statement that "There is no such thing as good Taliban or bad Taliban" is a rhetorical one that is trying to say "All Taliban are bad. You may call someone good today, but he will turn against you some day"

I have often wondered whether this latter statement is true - i.e whether you can nurture Taliban and keep them under control forever. The Paki army seem to think so. If Taliban=Islamist - you cannot control them They will eventually break free. if Taliban = standard secular army discipline - then they will remain under control

[RajeshA]

The only model I see here is the Libyan model!

Libya paid billions in compensation! It is time MMS gets the compensation for the victims of Mumbai 26/11 from the Pakistani coffers.

[Pulikeshi]

What some people on BRF tend to forget is, that there is a huge difference whether on the one hand we all are confident that Pakistan's ISI was behind the attack depending on our experiences with the country, or on the other hand there is clinching evidence against the Pakistani State. Don't mix up the two!

Tick, tock, tick, tock.... the clock of inaction continues on.
Countries have gone to war for less! India needs a spinal transplant!
The cost of war 10 years from now will be higher for India than today.
If there is clinching evidence against TSP, then current GOI behavior is even more damning.
Where is the independent media when you need it?

[munna]

Where is the independent media when you need it?

With an independent media our "Pawki-Talkies" and their propaganda would not last a day, forget the entire decade that it has between 2000-10. Frankly the usage of NDA's actions of offering talks back then (again after a huge faction fight between hawks and doves in the NDA) is no template for the India of today. At best the usage of NDA for justifying pappi-jhappi by MMS is a sign of lack of imagination or at worst it is simply a case "peace at any cost" philosophy.

[biswas]

The only model I see here is the Libyan model!

Libya paid billions in compensation! It is time MMS gets the compensation for the victims of Mumbai 26/11 from the Pakistani coffers.

What coffers?

[RamaY]

RajeshA

That is a plausible summary. Thanks!

[Dilbu]

Madamji and munna are on which side in this tussle between doves and hawks? That will decide a lot of things in the immediate future.

[archan]

How can someone infer that all this is a well-orchestrated game, especially when the dis-functioning of GOI is all visible across India? OT here but a few examples are PC-Diggi, MK-MMS, PM-MMS, KR-AC, SP-MMS, so on interactions...

Not OT at all, RamaY garu, because apparently this used-car salesmanship of concocting grand delusions about some chanakyan strategy being pursued by our GOI is totally kosher on this thread.

What exactly do you want? should the mods start editing posts that express an opinion about some action of GoI? like "no, you cannot say that GoI is being smart". Dude, even if they are wrong, it is their opinion.
Second, you talk about what should be kosher and what not on this thread and you are the one who call another user a "Kangress apologist". SS has a big heart to have let you off with a slap on the wrist. If I see a repetition, expect to see a sterner action.

[Gagan]

Shiv-ji and others.
That video interview of the journalists and studio audience with Hillary Clinton sounded like the subjects of the 52nd state demanding, beseeching their master for mercy, bitching about the big bad neighbour pinching them, crying out to the master to do something about their sense of inferiority with their neighbour. And Madam Clinton, sat very much like the Viceroy (Vicerina) of Pakistan, patiently explaining to her eager subjects, the importance of such mundane issues such as tax collections, agriculture tax, better water management

There is some more of that interview, which relates to DCH and Faisal S, that the Pee TV broadcaster didn't telecast in that video. A snippet is available on the Najam Sethi link below and NS's analysis. Actually this whole episode of Najam Sethi is worth watching.

Part 1:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUkFWb_jfIk
Part 2:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sum7AbUNdJg This is the one that has the missing clip & HC's response.
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErkfPs5IgFo
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHTNxb-tHQI Already posted 2 pages back.

[shiv]

If Pakistan keep conducting successful attack at some stage down the line all bets will be off.

After 26/11 GoI has successfully managed to raise the bar of patience from india's side. I shudder to think how many Indians will have to die in an attack next time before even a dossier will be prepared. Impotence thy name is chanakiangiri. ackthoo.

Dilbuddin - not trying to defend any GoI - but if you take 26/11 as a water shed you find that in the 18 months prior to 26/11 there were about 340 terrorist deaths and in the 18 months after there have been about 17 (Pune) (not counting Naxal and Kashmir infiltration attempts)

The list of terrorist attack (needs completion) that I made is here. I hope everyone can see it. (please say if it is inaccessible)
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key= ... id=0#gid=0

[archan]

In fact shiv can rename that video to "Viceroy of Pakistan, Ms. Clinton explaining to her subjects.."

[RajeshA]

The only model I see here is the Libyan model!

Libya paid billions in compensation! It is time MMS gets the compensation for the victims of Mumbai 26/11 from the Pakistani coffers.

What coffers?

Well for starters, it is the Pakistani Army and the ISI who were behind this, so how about taking out of their budget. They can also pay India with F-16s (at run-down and second-hand prices). Then there are the accounts of Jama'at-ud Dawah, the social wing of L-e-T if you wish, from which the money can be confiscated. Then there are the various properties of JuD and LeT which can be auctioned off to pay the compensation. Of course, the Professor, Prof. Hafiz Mohammed Saeed also has some properties and money, which should flow into the compensation.

Then there is the option that Pakistan can pay India using its share of water from the Indus Water Treaty. Come to think of it, India can take that compensation anytime. One can of course, put it differently, that the waters from the Western Rivers would be given, only after Pakistan has paid all its arrears due to the victims of the Mumbai 26/11 attacks.

In fact the UNSC should pass a resolution asking Pakistan to pay up the compensation, using the threat of sanctions. How the Pakis pay is their problem - they can sell their gold, or they can sell their daughters, or they can beg better.

[chaanakya]

Then there is the option that Pakistan can pay India using its share of water from the Indus Water Treaty. Come to think of it, India can take that compensation anytime. One can of course, put it differently, that the waters from the Western Rivers would be given, only after Pakistan has paid all its arrears due to the victims of the Mumbai 26/11 attacks.

In fact the UNSC should pass a resolution asking Pakistan to pay up the compensation, using the threat of sanctions. How the Pakis pay is their problem - they can sell their gold, or they can sell their daughters, or they can beg better.

Now Pakistan stands accused of Terrorism

Good summation there and excellent suggestion here.
I think , now that Pigs have been caught, India should make this demand in talks and talk on this issue. After some time start work on diversion channels to divert water.

[SSridhar]

I have often wondered whether this latter statement is true - i.e whether you can nurture Taliban and keep them under control forever.

The larger question relates to the entire Pakistan, "Can you create an Islamic Nation and expect it not to become Islamist ?" And, once it becomes Islamist, how can you not expect it to become jihadi as well ?

The problem with Pakistan was the clash between territorial and extra-territorial affinity. When Jinnah & Co. created Pakistan, was it a watan (homeland) or mulk (nation) or an ummah (community) ? He somehow thought that he could invoke these various symbols depending upon the exigencies of the situation. If it was a watan, that concept did not last very long because Pakistan stopped accepting Muslims migrating after sometime. If, it was a mulk, there were such deep divisions not only between West & East Pakistan but also within West Pakistan itself that it did not qualify as a nation. If it was an ummah, again no two sects considered the other as a Muslim leading to massacre all over the place.

From that confused state of affairs, it is now being strongly redefined in a very narrow way. Pakistan is the fortress for salafi Sunni Muslims.

[Muppalla]

With an independent media our "Pawki-Talkies" and their propaganda would not last a day, forget the entire decade that it has between 2000-10. Frankly the usage of NDA's actions of offering talks back then (again after a huge faction fight between hawks and doves in the NDA) is no template for the India of today. At best the usage of NDA for justifying pappi-jhappi by MMS is a sign of lack of imagination or at worst it is simply a case "peace at any cost" philosophy.

They ruled the country for about 40+ years before NDA and now they are into seventh year after taking over from NDA. However, they have the kujli to go back to NDA era reference.

Is this not similar to the takleef by TSP, every terrorist or SIMI type that is caught to keep blaming on Babri, Gujarat for every inhuman attack they do as justification. INC/MMS is having a good lineup to learn justification politics.

[Pratyush]

Pratyush ji,

you're talking about the issue of what should be in the gamut of talks between India and Pakistan, and if India allows too much then it is considered a sell-off in some quarters.

SNIP.....
What some people on BRF tend to forget is, that there is a huge difference whether on the one hand we all are confident that Pakistan's ISI was behind the attack depending on our experiences with the country, or on the other hand there is clinching evidence against the Pakistani State. Don't mix up the two!

Taking the second case as just some new little turn in the story of Dilli Billi is IMHO grossly demeaning for our nation.

Rajesh, Its one thing to remember the specific act of terror. But before that particular act there were also several other incidents. We need to have justice for all. The insistence on 26/11 should be seen in that context. Now, I am yet to see any evidence that India was to concede on the point of terror.

Why? You must ask.

The answer is very simple. This meeting took places as a follow up to the PC meet in the last month in Islamabad. We were assured that TSP will act but it did not. So the talks were a failure.

In none of the talks seen before or even this one I did not see the Indian side with hats in hand ready to sign on the dotted line as it were. Instead what one did see was the Indian side standing firm and putting TSP in its place.

Also, in our discussion we tend to ignore the nature of the Indian politics. Along with every thing that entails. It must be understood that SMK was the CM of a major Indian state. (OT for thread). If the Pakis think that they can intimidate an Indian politico of his experience. Then, I truly feel sorry for Pakis.

[negi]

What some people on BRF tend to forget is, that there is a huge difference whether on the one hand we all are confident that Pakistan's ISI was behind the attack depending on our experiences with the country, or on the other hand there is clinching evidence against the Pakistani State. Don't mix up the two!

What qualifies as CLINCHING evidence ? wow just wow .

[RajeshA]

Pratyush,

There have been many acts in past. Can we say, that the body of evidence in the other attacks was also so extensive and clinching as in Mumbai 26/11? In case of Mumbai, there were citizens of other nations also who were killed. In case of Mumbai, there is corroboration of evidence from a third party, the Americans, as well.

[Muppalla]

Apparently it is supposed to be some kind of great game wherein Manmohan Singh plays "good cop" and P Chidambaram plays "bad cop". However, the only things visible are Keystone Cops, under the tutelage of an incompetent prime minister.

It may be OT -
I disagree with the notion that MMS is incompetent PM. The evidence suggests that in UPA-2 it is actually the Gandhi-Family that has become puppet in the hands of MMS. He has all the cards in his hand. You may dislike his decisions for whatever the reasons but he is not incompetent. He has a method to his madness.

[Pratyush]

Pratyush,

There have been many acts in past. Can we say, that the body of evidence in the other attacks was also so extensive and clinching as in Mumbai 26/11? In case of Mumbai, there were citizens of other nations also who were killed. In case of Mumbai, there is corroboration of evidence from a third party, the Americans, as well.

As far as I am concerned TSP is guilty of them all equally if not more so. Starting from the serial bomb blasts in 1992. Evidence or the lack thereof is not really some thing I am concerned with.

Foreigners being killed in 26/11 too bad.

They have provided support and training to the bombers. That is sufficient.

[Gagan]

AQ Khan says that they had 30 bums in 1998 (6:21 onwards). Basically the whole interview is (I AM STILL CONSIDERED A MOHAJIR)
Part 7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDuuci4-GeM
At 3:15 onwards he says 'depleted uranium to maine dena tha' Did I hear it right? (I'm sure he meant enriched - but with pakistan you never know!)

The whole interview is here. Lots of beans being spilled slowly, but he keeps quiet on proliferation to Iran
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUHGbnd-Oi8
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8OxyJUPsKk
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_RgJFCl1rw
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrAtaMfQOwo
Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwbC6mO8Ky8
Part 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs2DItV3tPs
Part 7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDuuci4-GeM
Part 8: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV8qcinDNTw

[Muppalla]

So here is our predicament - over 650 million people live in India's rural areas. Of these, roughly 350 million live in a condition as wretched as 88 % of the pakis (this number is twice the entire poulation of pakistan). If the question - 'Would you rather be in India or TSP', were posed to them, these 350 million probably wouldn't give a flying ****!!

The 350 million provide a huge base of 'malcontents' whose potential for mischief would make paki terrorism look like a pin-prick. So pakis have to be managed, till we solve our internal distribution issues. Alternatively, like Napoleon, we could choose not to interfere while the enemy is bent on destroying itself. How we do it is up to us. There is absolutely no point looking at aggregate GDP without considering income distribution. GDP is also a meaningless measure IMO, for it does not classify activities as good or bad (so making and selling spurious drugs adds to GDP for e.g).

You have said in 2 paras what I have tried to say in 250,000 posts

I don't know whether any nation should even go into this excercise. In which country ( or even India's past actions) actions against enemy is taken based on these type of statistics? We were far poorer in 1971 or in 1965.

Even the richest and mightiest country like US has about 70% population's disapproval to go into Iraq or war against Iraq.

Added later:
India was always reminded with similar statistics about its Nuke programs, defense spending, space programs etc. I am afraid we are doing the same here.

[shiv]

From that confused state of affairs, it is now being strongly redefined in a very narrow way. Pakistan is the fortress for salafi Sunni Muslims.

For all the piskology I do - I would dearly like to suss out the piskology of the Pakistan army, I feel that if I can sniff some insights I would have a far better picture of Pakistan. Somehow I am not able to put my finger on the right hints - things don't fit and I am missing something. Whatever I think - it should fit facts as they are clearly visible - only then can i assume I may be on the right track.

What bothers me is that these people seem to have no concern at all about the human condition of fellow Pakistanis. I mean alright - you can go about life thinking that Pakistan is in OK shape - 70% of people get food and water better than India. But if you are running a nation you cannot run away from the fact that your country has serious internal issues and that your organization is hogging up most of the revenues. Apart from this seemingly inexplicable callousness - he Paki army clearly have total contempt for the "politicians". OK I agree that the politicians of Pakistan are contemptible. they are the feudal lords. But if the army "leads" Pakistan surely they should try and clan that up, bring in land reforms etc. But no! The army themselves do land grabbing and resource grabbing.

And the Paki army - like other Pakis never negotiates when it can grab. If the army negotiates it is only because the army feels it is on a weak footing. If it does not negotiate it is when it feels it can grab and get away. Negotiation from a position of strength is not a Paki army characteristic. If they are strong they grab, or hit. they talk only in areas where they feel they are weak.

In short it appears to be a criminal enterprise and it is run like one.

These things are not difficult to suss out of you have a modicum of training and you put your mind to it. It is the sad fact of the extreme rustic backwardness of our country that we are unable even to think of putting psychologists and sociologists on a think tank panel to profile the enemy.

[RamaY]

So here is our predicament - over 650 million people live in India's rural areas. Of these, roughly 350 million live in a condition as wretched as 88 % of the pakis (this number is twice the entire poulation of pakistan). If the question - 'Would you rather be in India or TSP', were posed to them, these 350 million probably wouldn't give a flying ****!!

The 350 million provide a huge base of 'malcontents' whose potential for mischief would make paki terrorism look like a pin-prick. So pakis have to be managed, till we solve our internal distribution issues. Alternatively, like Napoleon, we could choose not to interfere while the enemy is bent on destroying itself. How we do it is up to us. There is absolutely no point looking at aggregate GDP without considering income distribution. GDP is also a meaningless measure IMO, for it does not classify activities as good or bad (so making and selling spurious drugs adds to GDP for e.g).

You have said in 2 paras what I have tried to say in 250,000 posts

We can spend another billion posts and still not move an inch further. Can someone explain what India's internal economical equations has to do with Pawkis?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... in_poverty Per this source (during 2000-2007) >>

15.9% of Chinese population lives under $1.25 PPP
36.3% of Chinese population lives under $2.00 PPP

And 2.7% of Chinese population lives under National Poverty line. And below poverty map claims Chinese NATIONAL BPL percentage as 10% where as it is 10-20% in USA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Perce ... ld_map.png

[shiv]

Even the richest and mightiest country like US has about 70% population's disapproval to go into Iraq or war against Iraq.

Added later:
India was always reminded with similar statistics about its Nuke programs, defense spending, space programs etc. I am afraid we are doing the same here.

This only means that governments make judgements for the country on behalf of the people. At least in the US opinion polls say "70% for or against". That does not happen in India and a value judgement is made by very few for many under the impression that the right thing is being done.

It can cut both ways. The nation supported war after the parliament attack. Why did we pull back? Where was the support for that?

If statistics are so useless, how come they were useful when saying why we do not need a nuclear deal? Do you mean to say that the statistics that say 750,000 Pandits driven from Kashmir, or Hindu percentages down in Pakistan should also be dismissed along with other statistics that you do not like to hear about?

Ultimately everyone is happy when something happens that he likes and argues against it if he does not like it. But the fact remains that India has a huge number of poor and screwed up people. Talking of "superpower" and "defeating Pakistan" is all very well. Even Pakistan talks about being powerful and having defeated superpowers. Talk is cheap. But ultimately it is the numbers, the statistics that count. No need to believe it. Pakistan is doing quite well without bothering about statistics.

[ramana]

I have tried many models of Paki Establishement behavior. The one that fits, to me atleast, is the concept of kabila: a migrant armed camp pitched in a terrority without any roots in it. And the kabila is run by the guards whole contorl all aspects of life inside the kabila.

At Independence modern India threw out this kabila which has currently pitched its camp on the western borders of India. The East Pakistan broke away and is on its way to put in roots and transform the kabila to a mulk.

My contention is its the TSPA which is the kabila guards that wont allow the kabila to become a mulk. The only way as of now is for more Islamist (Wahabandis) folks to overthow them for they won't see the light. They have inertia of the insitituion(armed forces), the hubris of their clique (Pakjabi) and the hamartia (fatal flaw) of the national foundation.

[shiv]

Can someone explain what India's internal economical equations has to do with Pawkis?

India spends about 3% of its GPD on defence and has an army that is equal in size to the Pakistan army (after allowing for about half the Indian army to be reserved for the China border)

Conventional wisdom says that an attacking force needs a 2:1 or 3:1(or better) numerical superiority over a defending force for an outright victory. India DOES NOT have that numerical superiority and cannot be guaranteed victory if we attack Pakistan.

But in the last 63 years India has spent far more than Pakistan on education and family planning. We are doing much better but we still have a long way to go. India's population in 1947 was about 300 million and about 200 million were poor. In 2010 India has 600 million poor people. Three times more than in 1947. So despite spending the bare minimum on defence and despite spending a lot on development we still have twice as many poor people today than our entire population in 1947. And this is despite spending very little on defence.

What has Pakistan done? Pakistan has spent 20-40% of its budget on the military. But Pakistan too needs to have a 2:1 or 3:1 superiority for an outright victory. They have never managed that because India's 3% defence expenditure has just been enough to keep Pakistan at bay and prevent Pakistan from developing that numerical superiority for military victory. In the meantime Pakistan society has gone to dogs. Pakistan too has more poor people today that its population in 1947?

Meaning?

Pakistan is screwed up. India is still screwed up. We are getting better but we have a long way to go. They may be getting worse. We need to see what we can do to help them on their way.

[negi]

Well to be fair enough India's case is different from all other countries most of our leaders are above 70 at that age it is as it is time to meet the maker (no disrespect meant but seriously at that age completing even the morning routine is a challenge) there is a reason why there is a set retirement age for all jobs but somehow it does not exist for politicos. I wonder how sensible it is to continue with above system.

The reason for absence of spine is obvious.

[shiv]

I have tried many models of Paki Establishement behavior. The one that fits, to me atleast, is the concept of kabila: a migrant armed camp pitched in a terrority without any roots in it. And the kabila is run by the guards whole contorl all aspects of life inside the kabila.

At Independence modern India threw out this kabila which has currently pitched its camp on the western borders of India. The East Pakistan broke away and is on its way to put in roots and transform the kabila to a mulk.

My contention is its the TSPA which is the kabila guards that wont allow the kabila to become a mulk. The only way as of now is for more Islamist (Wahabandis) folks to overthow them for they won't see the light. They have inertia of the insitituion(armed forces), the hubris of their clique (Pakjabi) and the hamartia (fatal flaw) of the national foundation.

This is an interesting parallel. I recall your having said it earlier.

[shiv]

Well to be fair enough India's case is different from all other countries most of our leaders are above 70 at that age it is as it is time to meet the maker (no disrespect meant but seriously at that age completing even the morning routine is a challenge) there is a reason why there is a set retirement age for all jobs but somehow it does not exist for politicos. I wonder how sensible it is to continue with above system.

"Indic"

Have respect for your elders. Younger people are trained to dissolve their spine in the presence of elders. Going abroad removes this Indic trash. After that we don't need to say "Sir" or "ji" any more.

[Rudradev]

What exactly do you want? should the mods start editing posts that express an opinion about some action of GoI? like "no, you cannot say that GoI is being smart". Dude, even if they are wrong, it is their opinion.
.

I have not asked for the mods to do anything, least of all censor anybody's opinion.

In the post I was responding to, Rama Y had brought up certain openly public disputes between different GOI factions, to highlight the existing dysfunction and disunity within GOI ranks, but he also made the comment that it may be "off topic" to mention this.

I was just pointing out that, if speculation about the GOI being very systematic and coordinated in its policies is "on topic" for this thread, then posting rebuttals of this viewpoint with evidence to the contrary should certainly be considered "on topic" as well.

[negi]

Shiv ji I am gonna be in that position someday so there is no question of contempt involved here I am merely expressing my opinion as to how can one make sound decision when one is already long past his/her prime physically and mentally ?

[negi]

Going abroad removes this Indic trash. After that we don't need to say "Sir" or "ji" any more.

I don't know what has going abroad got to do with this, and btw fwiw the point about 70+ people being not fit for politics and to run our country was voiced by my mother .

[partha]

A Time report from 1953 -
The Mad Mullahs

For two days last week, a wild mob ruled the Pakistan city of Lahore (pop. 849,000). Surging through the streets, hungry Moslems stoned and stabbed police, burned buses and automobiles, ripped up railroad tracks, cut telegraph wires, smashed traffic lights and forcibly blackened the faces of anyone caught riding a bicycle or automobile. All shops closed and public officials fled. The city's 300 police, disarmed by the mob, were withdrawn from the streets. All communication with the outside world was cut off.
It was a minor revolution which swept this capital of the fertile Punjab province—a revolution engineered by fanatical mullahs against the Pakistan government. Five and a half years ago, when millions of frightened refugees were pouring into newly created Pakistan, the mullahs were the people's leaders. They had a strong voice in the government. But when the country began establishing industries, hospitals, schools and banks, the mullahs protested that these innovations clashed with Islamic law. When Pakistani women shed their veils and emerged from purdah (complete seclusion in the home), the more fanatic mullahs were outraged. When the time came for Pakistan to draw up a constitution, the mullahs demanded that it be based on the Koran. (Result: Pakistan, a nation of 76 million, is still without a constitution.) The government of Prime Minister Kwaja Nazimuddin avoided an open clash with religious leaders, but paid less attention to their counsel.
The Hungry Mobs. Last month a religious group known as the Ahraris, influenced by fanatic mullahs, demanded that the government declare half a million members of the Ahmadiya sect to be non-Moslems. The Ahmadiyas are a close-knit and unpopular group, followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, who at the turn of the century declared himself a Nabi, or prophet of Allah. There was politics in the mullahs' demands, because Pakistan's Foreign Minister, able, bearded Sir Mohammed Zafrullah Khan, is an Ahmadiya.* The Ahraris' mullahs demanded his removal. When the government refused, the mullahs began stirring up trouble, particularly in Lahore, where there are many Ahmadiyas. Craftily they timed their protest to occur before the new season's crops were harvested, when people were hungry.
Spellbinding mullahs whipped up crowds in Lahore's many mosques, and in a few days wild processions were shouting anti-Ahmadiya slogans. When police clubbed and shot demonstrators, the bodies of the dead and wounded were dragged to the mosques, where the mullahs exhibited them. Within a week the Ahmadiyas had been forgotten: thousands of hungry Pakistanis had turned their wrath on the government. In the streets they cried "Hai Nazimuddin" (Woe on Nazimuddin).
The Counter Blow. When news of the Lahore uprising reached Prime Minister Nazimuddin in Karachi, he ordered 44-year-old Major General Mohammed Azam Khan, commander of the military cantonment outside Lahore, to move into the city and regain control. Ten thousand Pakistani troops put the city under martial law. Within six hours the revolution was over. The Red Cross counted 330 dead at first aid stations. Other dead, picked up and buried by relatives, probably raised the death toll to 1,000 or more.
At week's end, Moslem Prime Minister Nazimuddin cautiously blamed the Ahraris for the rioting. This was strong stuff in a nation founded on religion. When the Ahraris failed to protest. Nazimuddin boldly lashed out, accused them of having opposed the formation of Pakistan. The Ahraris stayed silent.
The only sound in Lahore was the banshee wail of the curfew siren and the tramp of hobnailed military boots on the darkened, empty streets.

(link via chaighar blog)