Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): July 07, 2010

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 Jul 2010 03:50

Well it was Gujrati Morar Ji Desai who dismantled the Indian network among Poak , leaked Nuke info and got awarded by Poak's taller and high civilian award. MMS has done nothing of that sort and must mention that beside visible pappi _japphhee, also see the Knife in the pocket and non verbal BDY x1000 comment with a lovely smile.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Jul 2010 04:04

munna wrote:Can folks please leave out NDA/Vajpayee/anybododynotinthegovernment as a defense of our Pak policy? If that is the best justification that can come out time and again for the past 6 years then god save us.

Thats the problem when pointing out to a certain group of folk who hero worship MMS - they react viscerally and emotionally, and seek to project their own belief systems on you, in turn. I dont give a dang about how bad Vajpayee was. As he is no longer in power, but MMS is a breed apart in terms of being a dove, and in these times, thats a danger.

Net, no matter how bad (or good) NDA/Vajpayee/nybododynotinthegovernment were, they are not running our current Pak policy, which seems to be all around kissy-kissy, even as bomb attacks, 26/11 attacks continuously occur every now and then. Six years!!! Imagine the shambles it is, when a serving HM official is censured in public for speaking on the antics of the TSP apparatus

Well it was Gujrati Morar Ji Desai who dismantled the Indian network among Poak , leaked Nuke info and got awarded by Poak's taller and high civilian award. MMS has done nothing of that sort and must mention that beside visible pappi _japphhee, also see the Knife in the pocket and non verbal BDY x1000 comment with a lovely smile.

Prem - well put, so clearly there is a trend of PMs who ended up playing moral games at the expense of national interests. However, I worry whether we will ever know what MMS has and has not done. His antics at SeS were such a new low. I have never seen ex GOI personnel speak up on national media ever, about the GOI in such a manner. Many rtd worthies from various security orgs have literally given up on the current admin in some respects, if not all. The last PM to have aroused such ire, and also similarly prone to Pakjabi pappi jhappi was IKG, and he too ended up causing a lot of damage

Its not a question of hyperbole or whether he is a desh dhrohi or whatever. That is irrelevant and ends up taking the debate into the gutter, well to the advantage of those who seek to defend him on the basis of emotion and not an eval of his actual policies. It is policies which are disastrous, and his actions are not worth the dignity the position of PM deserves. The PM of India is expected to protect India, not constantly attempt to pay upto the local thug, in the process the common people, you & me, suffer. The PM does not, as he lives in a cocoon of comfort.

But to even say this, and the supporters will jump on you like a pile of rocks!

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 23 Jul 2010 04:21

All of MMS administrative and non-Pakistan-policy related stuff comes up in the TSP thread!
Moderator, I request you to delete/move the offending posts and admonish the posters, if they won't do it themselves.

munna · Post by **munna** » 23 Jul 2010 04:30

Emotional responses to criticism of a particular personality in charge of Pak policy is as bad or worse than emotional criticism of the same personality for his policy choices. (== onlee)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Jul 2010 04:34

It is amazing to see posters who themselves have engaged in introducing tangents in discussions - such as A_Gupta who went about comparing Indian economic indices to Pakistans, then coming up with convoluted explanations about it, now asking the admins to admonish other posters and delete their posts! "Offending posters indeed". Could you kindly leave the policing to the admins please?

Kind sir, I have been visiting BRF for a long time - I am well aware of what the TSP thread is for, but it does deserve a serious post once in a while about the kind of policy failures that lead India to disrepair and how dangerous, dissolute, irresolute leadership is.

It is all very well to have constant enjoyment about "x attacks in Pak" and "y things in SWAT", but once in a while it is worthwhile to see the dangers that are posed to India as well by inaction.

I do understand the desire to maintain the mythical "thread purity", which you yourself did not really attempt to maintain, but do go easy on the hyperbole would you about "offending posters" and the like. In years past, it were these attempts above and beyond thread purity, which led even the most hardened WKK and dilettante to engage in discussions that exposed the true nature of Pak, as enumerated in the thread title.

I do understand that some of you cannot even stand what I noted in my prior posts - I'd suggest then that you ignore them.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 Jul 2010 04:37

Hillary a 'Bigger Liar' than Condoleezza
http://worldmeets.us/thefrontierpost000053.shtml

Now Hillary Clinton is pouring barrels of oil on the fire with her false talk of Osama bin Laden hiding in Pakistan and her threats of dire consequences if a terrorist strike on America is traced to this country. Indeed, she's turning out to be a bigger liar, a more malignant truth-twister, and a greater diabolical chicaner than her predecessor, Condoleezza Rice. Her act stinks, her talk stinks; she is all posturing. Although Pakistan's leadership and establishment may be slavishly dancing to her abominable tune, the people of this country aren't the least bit amused. They are boiling in anger over her posturing and outrageous outpourings. They are as deeply incensed at her straight-faced lies and nonchalant threats as they are with the overall act of the Obama Administration, which is making Pakistan pay the price for their spurious war in Afghanistan, while letting India reap all the benefits at Pakistan’s expense.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Jul 2010 04:42

munna wrote:Emotional responses to criticism of a particular personality in charge of Pak policy is as bad or worse than emotional criticism of the same personality for his policy choices. (== onlee)

Hardly emotional. Call it a monologue, or even a diatribe if you will but based on observation of this particular individuals policies and actions over a period of time (six years is indeed a long time). Throughout his tenure, he displayed three characteristic traits:
-Constant desire to come up with woolly eyed dangerous attempts to cede space/the advantage to Pak
-Almost total disregard for the suffering of Indian citizens due to terror activities, bar the occasional political speech
-Completely ineffectual in terms of devising a national consensus to deal with either internal security or economic challenges.

As such, we are indeed in a very shoddy state of affairs, that its taking a faction within the current administration to stymie talks with a sponsor of terror.

See Rajesh A's succint summary of the available information some posts back.

Yes, there is emotion, but more of the dispirited kind. As common citizens, we have next to no power but to observe the shambles these politicians make of our national policies, yet live lives of extreme pelft and power, claims of simplicity apart.

While ancient India had the problem of leaders falling in battle, and the camp then losing morale and failing, here we have a different problem, an elite so insulated from the common people, that it lives in an alternate dimension and cares not a whit for what its actions are causing

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 23 Jul 2010 04:52

General Atomics Gets Approval to Sell Drones to Pakistan, Egypt

General Atomics Aeronautical Systems Inc., the privately held maker of Predator drones, said it has won U.S. approval for an export version of the unmanned plane that Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are interested in buying. “There’s interest from Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and the United Arab Emirates,” Frank Pace, president of the Poway, California-based company, said in an interview at the Farnborough Air Show near London today.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 23 Jul 2010 05:04

Ignore. That was an excellent suggestion! Three cheers for the foes list!
-----

In the mean time, this argument is made on the daily times for why the world needs a stable Pakistan - namely, so that the world can connect Central Asian oil, gas, minerals to the Indian market, and to the rest of the world.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2010_pg3_3

munna · Post by **munna** » 23 Jul 2010 05:14

FACE THE QUESTIONS
Swapan Dasgupta in Telegraph writes

In recent months, India is experiencing a system of governance that appears to have absolved the prime minister of any responsibility for either the actions of his cabinet colleagues or wider developments. His role is increasingly becoming ceremonial.

Restoring normal relations between the two countries has been one of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s most significant initiatives, comparable to his gritty perusal of the Indo-US nuclear accord in the first term of the United Progressive Alliance government. It is well known that Singh has persevered with trying to overcome the legacy of the 26/11 attacks on Mumbai, despite the known scepticism of many of his cabinet colleagues

OR
CCS was briefed on Headley interrogation
The Hindu says

government sources on Thursday sought to put the record straight, pointing out that the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) had been briefed on the issue by Home Minister P. Chidambaram in the presence of External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 23 Jul 2010 05:16

Haqqanis are now terrorists as per the US!
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... etwork-370

WASHINGTON: The US Treasury Department on Thursday placed the Haqqani network among the groups promoting terrorism and froze the assets of its emissary Nasiruddin Haqqani along with those of two other Taliban leaders.

The action comes amid speculations in Washington that the US State Department is about to declare the Haqqani network a foreign terrorist organisation.

But Thursday’s move already blocks any effort to negotiate a truce between the Haqqani network and the Afghan government.

US treasury press release:
http://www.treas.gov/press/releases/tg782.htm

WASHINGTON – The U.S. Department of the Treasury today designated three key leaders and financiers for the Taliban and its affiliated group the Haqqani Network, for supporting acts of terrorism and for acting for or on behalf of the Taliban or the Haqqani Network. Today's designation, pursuant to Executive Order 13224 targets Gul Agha Ishakzai, the head of the Taliban's financial commission; Amir Abdullah, former treasurer to senior Taliban leader Mullah Berader; and Nasiruddin Haqqani, an emissary for the Haqqani Network. The Haqqani Network is a Taliban-affiliated group of militants that operates out of North Waziristan Agency, Pakistan and has been spearheading insurgent activity in Afghanistan. Executive Order 13224 freezes any assets the designees have under U.S. jurisdiction and prohibits U.S. persons from engaging in any transactions with them. Today's designees were added to the United Nations 1267 Consolidated List on July 19, 2010 for being associated with Al-Qa'ida, Usama bin Laden or the Taliban.

naren · Post by **naren** » 23 Jul 2010 05:30

A_Gupta wrote:Ignore. That was an excellent suggestion! Three cheers for the foes list!
-----

In the mean time, this argument is made on the daily times for why the world needs a stable Pakistan - namely, so that the world can connect Central Asian oil, gas, minerals to the Indian market, and to the rest of the world.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2010_pg3_3

Reminds me of a golden quote, well applicable to those who think they are so indispensable:

"Squeaky wheels dont always get the grease. Sometimes they get replaced"

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 23 Jul 2010 05:49

Gerard wrote:General Atomics Gets Approval to Sell Drones to Pakistan, Egypt
General Atomics Aeronautical Systems Inc., the privately held maker of Predator drones, said it has won U.S. approval for an export version of the unmanned plane that Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are interested in buying. “There’s interest from Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and the United Arab Emirates,” Frank Pace, president of the Poway, California-based company, said in an interview at the Farnborough Air Show near London today.

Gerard sir.....this blog has copied verbatim the content from the following site:

http://www.onepakistan.com/news/world/5 ... istan.html

Please note the paki source....

The original article is here:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-2 ... egypt.html

Please note that nowhere does it mention that the US is willing to sell to Pak....although the title is misleading.

“There’s interest from Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and the United Arab Emirates,” Frank Pace, president of the aircraft systems group at the closely held company, said today in an interview at the Farnborough Air Show near London.

General Atomics recently received U.S. State Department approval to offer an unarmed Predator model to countries beyond the NATO bloc, Japan, Australia and New Zealand, Pace said. That would allow sales in the Middle East and elsewhere to governments previously ineligible to buy the planes, he said.

Another quote:

For example, a Pakistani Predator that was sent to monitor neighboring India would be “problematic” because such a mission might not be in U.S. interests, Hartung said.

Now, I am well aware of the Amir Khan perfidy however, It seems some paki journo jumped the gun and just because Pakistan has shown interest in predators and that GA has got approval to sell predators to foreign governments does not mean that the pakis will get their hands on it.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 Jul 2010 05:58

naren wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:Ignore. That was an excellent suggestion! Three cheers for the foes list!----
In the mean time, this argument is made on the daily times for why the world needs a stable Pakistan - namely, so that the world can connect Central Asian oil, gas, minerals to the Indian market, and to the rest of the world.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2010_pg3_3
Reminds me of a golden quote, well applicable to those who think they are so indispensable:
"Squeaky wheels dont always get the grease. Sometimes they get replaced"

As far as India is concerned , we wont be needing natural gas and Onlee four letter word to Poakroaches..

"IRAN"

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 23 Jul 2010 06:08

Pakistani spy arrested in Ludhiana
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/-Paki ... ice/650593

The Ludhiana police arrested a Pakistani national on Thursday on charges of espionage. Nizam Baksh was picked up by the Kotwali police and photographs of Army stations, maps of Army installations, four simcards and other documents were recovered from his possession.

ADCP Harsh Bansal said: “The man had been living in the city for nearly five years on a fake identity of one Sandeep Singh, son of Daljit Singh, of Shahkot district in Jalandhar. We are interrogating him, but he keeps changing his statements.”

Adding that the accused conceded that he was Nizam Baksh, son of Allaudin tehsil Jahania, district Thanewal in Pakistan, Bansal said he had been living in Adrash Colony near Samrala Chowk.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jul 2010 06:19

surinder wrote: She said that "We will not negotiate with N. Korea. We will not engage with it. N. Korea must understand that there are consequences and must face them."

Surinder part and parcel of America's greatness is having spokespersons like this and the rhetoric that is utter baloney.

People hear this and think "Oh we are not negotiating with NoKo. That of course is trash. The US is indirectly paying NoKo to stay alive and the US's proxies are merrily talking to NoKo. Aid to NoKo is freely available and limited to an extent by what NoKo is willing to take, and that aid is given unconditionally for pretty much the same reasons as people are giving aid to Pakistan

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 23 Jul 2010 06:25

On Predators for Pakistan:
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/genera ... 0.html?x=0

Note the place, date and time - more accurate than Bloomberg. This is from Reuters, BTW.

Andrea Shalal-Esa, 0:49, Wednesday 21 July 2010

FARNBOROUGH, England (Reuters) - General Atomics, which has already sold 435 Predator drones in recent years, sees growing demand for its unmanned planes, including a high-flying new successor to the Predator being considered by the U.S. Navy for use on aircraft carriers as soon as 2018.

General Atomics has already received export licenses to sell an unarmed export version of the Predator to Saudi Arabia, Egypt, U.A.E. and Morocco, and has applied for a licence to sell to Pakistan, said company spokeswoman Kimberly Kasitz.

FYI, General Atomics is a privately held corporation and so its president can speak a little more carelessly than an officer of a publicly held corporation.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jul 2010 06:27

RamaY wrote:Thank you Ramanaji. You took words from my mouth. There is absolutely no need to "compare" Indian toilet statistics with Pakistan economics.

This is correct - but there is a problem. In this case your viewpoint is not the problem.

If you spend some time discussing Paki stats with Indians (not BRF) - which you may or may not have done, you find that it is only a matter of time before an Indian starts saying "Oh - you are so good at Paki stats - just look at how bad India is. You are blind. You re blinkered etc". So it is very important forr anyone who talks of stats to be completely up to date with Indian and Paki stats. And when you are up to date and are erady with either set of stats - we have people like you who worry that indian stats are being mentioned.

In both cases - (you and the typical non BRF Indian bunch) they are opinions and I am ready to talk to both viewpoints even if takleef is caused to both sides. The takleef is the statistics - not necessarily me.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jul 2010 06:40

Prem wrote:
Chandragupta wrote:
.... I agree. But I would like to know what the gurus think about India's Pakistan policy once that happens. In 15 years, say India becomes a $5T economy, third largest in the world after China & US. In the same period, Pakistan becomes a degenerating cesspool of 250 million illiterate, brainwashed, madrassa educated jihadis with no food, no jobs & no future, but with an army that has nuclear weapons.
There is an old Indian story. A Poak and his Bachra was looking toward India across Wagha . The Indian side was glittering with lights and people well dressed and well fed having party . Poak proudly told his Puttar that Poakroach like him and his foreigner TFTA ancestors looted this kuffar land many times and did all sort of Paki things . The Baccha was puzzled and asked Old Poak , "Abbu , then how come they are still prosperous, lighted all over , dressed up, having party while we who looted them are still without light in the house and not enough food to eat or clothes to wear and take out Lota fro zakat on every occasion ?"
Poak was quiet for while and then sheepingly told young Poak but yea we have Pak-islam and they dont and one day in futre we might have Kashmir too.

Pardon me if I go OT. I recently met an old friend who lived for years in North Korea while her husband worked for UNICEF or some such organization.

She said that apart from the US enclave where there were lights the entire city would be dark at night. She joked that North Koreans are so slim because they all climb all the way up blocks of flats - there is no power for lifts.

Pakistan is headed that way. There are differences of course, but your bright lights story reminded me.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jul 2010 06:48

Karan M wrote: Net, no matter how bad (or good) NDA/Vajpayee/nybododynotinthegovernment were, they are not running our current Pak policy,

Hey presto - they are not running ANY policy other than bleating ineffectively about all that is wrong with now. Sounds like sour grapes to me.

But why cry over lost elections on this thread?

Patni · Post by **Patni** » 23 Jul 2010 07:08

Gen Kayani gets three year extension

ISLAMABAD: Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani announced the extension of Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayanis tenure for three years on Thursday.

Speaking to the nation on national television, PM Gilani said that the country is passing through times, and that the civil government and armed forces had carried out successful operations in Swat.

He said that Gen Kayanis leadership was key to the success in the fight against terrorism and keeping this in light it was mandatory to extend his tenure.

Gilani said that after consultations with President Asif Zardari, he has decided to extend the tenure for three years.

Maybe Gilani trying to say it was an order he received from GHQ pindi and was told its mandatory for him to read it out on tv?

arnab · Post by **arnab** » 23 Jul 2010 07:13

RamaY wrote:

What is the reason for this abysmal performance. The proof is in the pudding. Today the BPL is defined by international organizations with US$ as the base currency. But 1USD ~ Rs4 in 1947 where as it is Rs45+ in 2010. This ate ~11 multiples of poverty line.

JMHT.

With respect, this is a complete misunderstanding that exchange rates are responsible for inflating india's poverty level. Simple question - Can you buy the same basket of goods for Rs 45 (in 2010), that you could buy for Rs. 4 (in 1947)? So is a person who earns Rs 45 a day (in 2010) better off than a person who would be earning Rs 4 a day (in 1947, this would be a huge sum)? The answer is obvious.

I know the standard argument that 'oh we were poor in 1971 but we still fought', infact poorer countries like Somalia and Eritria are still fighting - but all these hide the dynamic nature of nation-building. In 1971, GOI calculated that it was cheaper to fight a war than feed 10 million refugees. Today the dynamics are different. Today india is a two-speed economy. With a large chunk of urban population who are wealthy and trying to improve the quality of life of themselves and their children. They would prefer no permanent (or say significant) disruption in their ability to do that. Terrorism may pi$$ them off for a while but they would return to their core preferences soon (refer to Maharashtra election results post 26/11). However a war would be intolerable and disruptive. Then there is a large population at the bottom of the heap who couldn't care less about terrorism - for they face the terror to survive on a daily basis. And then you have a bunch of NRIs whose wish would be to have a war so that they could post on deaf and dumb - 'see we kicked your ass'

So you understand when GOI says that currently war is not an option. Because there is just not enough support for it at the moment unless all other avenues are exhausted. May be there will be if there is another significant terror attack (I don't know).

We are not the US you know - which deflected the murder of 3000 of its citizens by Saudi Arabia and TSP by bombing the crap out of Iraq and Afghanistan. So apparently their citizens have been avenged !! Infact the US tax payers are subsidising the murderers of their countrymen (because business and geopolitics rules at the end of the day). However, we don't see humiliation for the US there (nor do we call Bush a traitor and a sellout). We just appreciate the outcome that there has been no more terror attacks on US soil since 11/9. Well India is the same (broadly speaking) post 26/11.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 23 Jul 2010 07:18

Unease in govt over Indo-Pak talks squabble

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Unease-in ... 76307.aspx

There is growing concern within the government over the damage internal recrimination, specially over Indo-Pak talks, is causing to its image. The issue has already given a handle to the Opposition parties, including the BJP and the Left, on the eve of Parliament's Monsoon session. "We are looking like jokers," lamented a Union Minister.

...

Krishna's criticism of Pillai raised speculation whether the ministries of external and home affairs were at loggerheads.

"There is a trust deficit within the government," said another Union minister.

...

Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao called on Pillai to bridge the divide between the two ministries. Thursday's meeting took place at Pillai's North Block office on Raisina Hill long after the television crews outside had melted away. "I can only confirm there was a meeting,” a government functionary said.

Pillai and Rao are understood to have discussed the Indo-Pak talks, his remarks on David Headley's probe report a day earlier and the controversy.

"I think the meeting would have cleared the air," a source later said.

...

Islamabad was quick to welcome Krishna's critical remarks. A gleeful Interior Minister Rehman Malik on Thursday tweeted his thank you to New Delhi for "creating positivity".

"We appreciate PM India & Home Minister for advising their aides nt 2 (not to) give negative statements against Pak," Rehman tweeted on the micro-blogging networking site.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 23 Jul 2010 07:25

Engaging Pakistan's moderate majority

http://afpak.foreignpolicy.com/posts/20 ... e_majority

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 23 Jul 2010 07:43

munna wrote:The Hindu says
government sources on Thursday sought to put the record straight, pointing out that the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) had been briefed on the issue by Home Minister P. Chidambaram in the presence of External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna.

From the above report, it is increasingly becoming apparent that there was indeed no coordination and no good-cop-bad-cop play. It was plain and simple muddle unless of course the above report itself is a plant to create that impression. If we conitinue to believe that S-e-S was a great chanakyan-like move, we can also believe the coordinated blow-hot-blow-cold theory. For my simple mind, it appears that it is the Pakistanis who are playing that game and effectively too. Look at the statements coming from Makhdoom saheb and Rehman Malik saheb.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jul 2010 07:49

abhishek_sharma wrote:Unease in govt over Indo-Pak talks squabble

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Unease-in ... 76307.aspx

This is the real problem:

The issue has already given a handle to the Opposition parties, including the BJP and the Left, on the eve of Parliament's Monsoon session. "We are looking like jokers," lamented a Union Minister.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jul 2010 07:56

munna wrote: CCS was briefed on Headley interrogation
The Hindu says
government sources on Thursday sought to put the record straight, pointing out that the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) had been briefed on the issue by Home Minister P. Chidambaram in the presence of External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna.

Something does not fit here:

Pillai made his remarks "on the eve of the visit". Please correct me if I am wrong - but Pillais remarks were out before Krishna met Qureshi.

The news item says:

Mr. Krishna and his counterpart, Shah Mehmood Qureshi, were reported to have made considerable progress during their first session that went on for nearly five hours, the two Ministers even having had a working lunch.

However, Mr. Krishna's schedule to call on Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani was reversed at the last minute and he first called on President Asif Ali Zardari. In the meantime, Army chief General Kayani met Mr. Gilani and when the talks resumed after Mr. Krishna's two call-ons, the complexion, tone and atmosphere changed. Pakistan adopted a hawkish posture of adhering to a timeline on settling outstanding issues, including Kashmir, which ultimately led to the stalling of talks.

Though the Indian delegation showed flexibility in its approach, the Pakistani side appeared to be having different designs, the sources said.

Pillai was not blamed before the talks failed.

After the talks failed we have two parties being blamed
1) Pillai
2) Pakistan Army

Guess what? This has been mentioned by someone on PakTeahouse long before the talks

"You control the hardliners on your side and we will try to control the hardliners on our side"

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 23 Jul 2010 07:59

Army Chief to Serve 3 More Years in Pakistan

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/23/world ... pstan.html

The Americans have praised General Kayani for his army’s campaigns against the Pakistani Taliban but, behind the scenes, the Americans have been disappointed with the general’s failure to disown the Afghan Taliban, who benefit from sanctuaries in Pakistan’s tribal areas.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 23 Jul 2010 08:07

Karan M - please explain where Dr. MMS put his ethnicity over national interests! If you cannot support this then amend your post. You launch into nearly full page responses to a few lines written by people opposing your view and then throw about accusations about visceral attacks!!

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 23 Jul 2010 08:13

Karan M, I don't fully agree with you, but I think you should be able to freely say what you want to say. We should not be imposing some forced respect for MMS. Some things you said are defintely something I can agree with. He pappe-japhee with TSP'ians is scary, but I am not sensing he is doing because he is Punjabi. I think he is just like that. He is no different with Muslims of other ethnicities in India. One does not sense a different behaviour towards Pakjabis than towards Muslims of other ethnicities.

If appeasement of Pakistan is a point to be made, then MMS is hardly an author of this game. This has ben INC game for more than 80 years. MKG went on fast for money to TSP while India was engaged in war; Nehru gave away water in IWT and stopped the advancing IA and PoK was lost; Shastri stopped the 1965 war prematurely, and gave back Haji Pir (and areas around Lahore); IG gave back 92000 prisoners for a song; Morarji Desai & IG let TSP go nuclear without even making the least effort to disrupt it. These are all examples from non-Punjabis and they are all far more disastrous in impact. Appeasement of TSP, Muslim vote bank politics has been an Indian policy, MMS just happens to follow it.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 23 Jul 2010 08:14

The whole economic statistics, poverty and scales of costs etc are being projected as though if India/MMS does not initiate talks with Pak some huge war will come and then we lose out some 8% anual GDP growth. Why is it not possible (or atleast explore) to not have talks or go little more gungho and not even have diplomatic relations with TSP? What is the result/gain in talks? how many rounds of useless efforts? As it is apparent that India has all the proof that GOP and ISI are clearly involved in each and every attack.

Why it has to be a clear cut economically-expensive-kill-poor war onlee if we do not have talks?

We are dicussing as if TSP has already threatened MMS with a war that will bring down 8% growth to -2% growth if he does not talk with them. Our inferences from the events are as such the most intelligent-statesman-PM has taken a pragmatic decision to talk and then the very structured and one of the most experienced GOI administration orchestrated all the intelligent Chanikyan processes of fake-fighting among themselves to confuse the enemy.

munna · Post by **munna** » 23 Jul 2010 08:19

^^Good post. No talks does not == great war. Or is it?

arnab · Post by **arnab** » 23 Jul 2010 08:22

Muppalla wrote:The whole economic statistics, poverty and scales of costs etc are being projected as though if India/MMS does not initiate talks with Pak some huge war will come and then we lose out some 8% anual GDP growth. Why is it not possible (or atleast explore) to not have talks or go little more gungho and not even have diplomatic relations with TSP? What is the result/gain in talks? how many rounds of useless efforts? As it is apparent that India has all the proof that GOP and ISI are clearly involved in each and every attack.

Why it has to be a clear cut economically-expensive-kill-poor war onlee if we do not have talks?

Oh I fully support 'not talking'. But GOI (of all hues) want to do 'something'. And talking is the least expensive 'something' that can be done (Remember even idiotic ideas like IPI have been floated). However, 'talking' is not a sell out as it is perceived to be here. Infact anything short of 'overt punishment' is seen as a sellout by some. But I don't see that happenning. Not yet anyway.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 23 Jul 2010 08:23

^^^ the chankian ingredient behind the talks tamasha from Dilli's side is that it keeps PA's excuses of pulling troops out of the Afpak region muted. That way US pressure on pak to act on the jihadi lashkars i.e. self-destruct remains strong. Or so the hope goes.

Time will tall whether the hope bears out or not. For me, the fact that no repeat of 26/11 happened is a significant data point in favor of a 'do drama of talks etc' approach. Maybe.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 23 Jul 2010 08:25

shiv wrote:Surinder part and parcel of America's greatness is having spokespersons like this and the rhetoric that is utter baloney.

People hear this and think "Oh we are not negotiating with NoKo. That of course is trash. The US is indirectly paying NoKo to stay alive and the US's proxies are merrily talking to NoKo. Aid to NoKo is freely available and limited to an extent by what NoKo is willing to take, and that aid is given unconditionally for pretty much the same reasons as people are giving aid to Pakistan

Shiv, Indirect negotians are just that, Indirect. Talks via proxies are still talks via proxies. It makes a huge difference how talks are held. In so far as diplomacy goes, it is vitally important who talks to whom and how. Indirect talks and talks through proxies not direct talks and carry a certain unmistakable message.

US has not held direct talks with NoKO. During GWB presidency, there was tremendous debate whether the long-standing US policy of no direct talks should be changed as this would incentivize NoKo to change. US has held on to no talks policy with Cuba & also with Al-Qaida. Most importantly, it has a policy that is well thought out and careflly calibrated and then studiously followed. At least makes sense and can be coherently comprehended.

TSP has done more atankvaad to India than Al-Qaida has done to US. But look at the manner in which talks are held by India. They are a mass of contradictory mess. How they are held, where they are held, the optics and the acoustics is horrible. Indian FM cannot even stand up and say that Pillai is correct. The left hand of India does not know the right hand; there is no coherence or any sense in this policy. It oscillates from bravado to victimhood to despair to frank talk to pussilanimous growelling. Indian dealing is just simply pathetic.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 23 Jul 2010 08:26

surinder wrote:Karan M, I don't fully agree with you, but I think you should be able to freely say what you want to say. We should not be imposing some forced respect for MMS. Some things you said are defintely something I can agree with. He pappe-japhee with TSP'ians is scary, but I am not sensing he is doing because he is Punjabi. I think he is just like that. He is no different with Muslims of other ethnicities in India. One does not sense a different behaviour towards Pakjabis than towards Muslims of other ethnicities.

If appeasement of Pakistan is a point to be made, then MMS is hardly an author of this game. This has ben INC game for more than 80 years. MKG went on fast for money to TSP while India was engaged in war; Nehru gave away water in IWT and stopped the advancing IA and PoK was lost; Shastri stopped the 1965 war prematurely, and gave back Haji Pir (and areas around Lahore); IG gave back 92000 prisoners for a song; Morarji Desai & IG let TSP go nuclear without even making the least effort to disrupt it. These are all examples from non-Punjabis and they are all far more disastrous in impact. Appeasement of TSP, Muslim vote bank politics has been an Indian policy, MMS just happens to follow it.

surinder ji,

I am not trying to defend Karan M, however there is a common perception that is really growing among the angry ones. We need to understand that most of the folks will have half-knowledge and they just connect the dots. They have seen two towering WKKs I.K.Gujral and now MMS and both of them are Punjabis. It is a natural phenomenon to streotype. In India everyone looks at ethnic side and unfortunately perceptional respect and disrespect are tied to such visible things. In the process sadly all the sacrifices will be forgotten.

I request and hope not to misunderstand me for writing this post. Apologies in advance.

Added later: I was talking to few friends at a get together and the anger is extending to all those who immigrated from Pak. One was proposing to ban all of them + the folks from border districts from PM post. People are perceptively-visualising them as someone with some psychological disorder.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jul 2010 08:41

surinder wrote: Shiv, Indirect negotians are just that, Indirect. Talks via proxies are still talks via proxies. It makes a huge difference how talks are held. In so far as diplomacy goes, it is vitally important who talks to whom and how. Indirect talks and talks through proxies not direct talks and carry a certain unmistakable message.

US has not held direct talks with NoKO. During GWB presidency, there was tremendous debate whether the long-standing US policy of no direct talks should be changed as this would incentivize NoKo to change. US has held on to no talks policy with Cuba & also with Al-Qaida. Most importantly, it has a policy that is well thought out and careflly calibrated and then studiously followed. At least makes sense and can be coherently comprehended.

TSP has done more atankvaad to India than Al-Qaida has done to US. But look at the manner in which talks are held by India. They are a mass of contradictory mess. How they are held, where they are held, the optics and the acoustics is horrible. Indian FM cannot even stand up and say that Pillai is correct. The left hand of India does not know the right hand; there is no coherence or any sense in this policy. It oscillates from bravado to victimhood to despair to frank talk to pussilanimous growelling. Indian dealing is just simply pathetic.

Surinderji my objection is to the false parallel that you are drawing where you are saying India vs Pakistan should be like US vs NoKo. To me this sounds like another paroxysm of "Why can't we be like the US?" of which I see too much. There is nobody on earth who does not want to be like US. If only my aunt had a #**#.

Would you be able to expand on what India could do after not talking to Pakistan? India is talking to Pakistan because we are getting no further by not talking. We are not about to declare war. India has already decided that war is not an option.

Perhaps you would be able to say how war might be an option? Or something else? Or should we talk via proxies like the US.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 23 Jul 2010 08:44

Krishna gave them handle, Pak says thanks

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 202629.cms

The fear that Pakistan will seize upon the criticism of Union home secretary G K Pillai to dodge blame for the failure of the Islamabad talks has come true. On Thursday, Pakistan's internal security minister Rehman Malik praised Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and home minister P Chidambaram for restraining their aides from criticising Pakistan.

As Malik's tweet once again put the spotlight on the divisions within the government even on crucial foreign policy issues, there was a dispute raging within on whether Pillai and National Security Advisor Shivshankar Menon had by the highlighting of Headley's statement caused embarrassment to the government. A school of thought in the government holds that the two senior functionaries breached the promise Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, in order to gain access to the Lashkar terrorist, gave to the US President Barack Obama not to make public the contents of the interrogation of the Pakistani-American jehadi.

Others, however, contested the argument saying that the government made no such promise, saying that the understanding was that India would not use the details of investigations done on the basis of the leads provided by Headley and that promise has been kept.

I do not even understand. Is it like what B. Raman wrote about 1993 blasts?

derkonig · Post by **derkonig** » 23 Jul 2010 08:51

Seems like INC apologist dlones have struck this thread.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 23 Jul 2010 08:54

As Malik's tweet once again put the spotlight on the divisions within the government even on crucial foreign policy issues, there was a dispute raging within on whether Pillai and National Security Advisor Shivshankar Menon had by the highlighting of Headley's statement caused embarrassment to the government. A school of thought in the government holds that the two senior functionaries breached the promise Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, in order to gain access to the Lashkar terrorist, gave to the US President Barack Obama not to make public the contents of the interrogation of the Pakistani-American jehadi.

Others, however, contested the argument saying that the government made no such promise, saying that the understanding was that India would not use the details of investigations done on the basis of the leads provided by Headley and that promise has been kept.

I disagree with the notion that Headley has revealed something that Indian intel does not already possess. They may have some names among Pak government and ISI. They may have just validated while investigating him.

This is another disinformation and it seems like the thud-world India cannot do better job that US in investigations.