Indian Interests

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 13 Jul 2010 01:07

regarding stone throwers and pelters - There are associated gangs that actually collect the stones and deliver. I wish I had saved an article about it long time ago appeared in some Hyd news. This is very organized chain from collection to throwing from mosques. The police face the brunt and finally shoots. If someone is shot or killed, another round of stone pelting during funerals. That is where "we need 15 more martyrs" comes from.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 13 Jul 2010 14:34

Dr Tathagat Tulsi, 22, becomes Professor Tulsi at IIT Bombay

He completed high school at the age of 9, had a B.Sc at 10, an M.Sc in Physics at 12, and a PhD in Quantum Computing from the Indian Institute of Science (IISc), Bangalore, at 21. In 2003, Time named him among the world’s seven most gifted youngsters. Now, at age 22, Patna-born prodigy Tathagat Avtar Tulsi has become possibly the youngest assistant professor at IIT.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/dr-ta ... y/645689/0

Also, an interview with this guy: http://gulfnews.com/news/world/india/i- ... e-1.539037

(He's a bit obsessed with records, but hey, if he can become a Prof at 22, he's entitled to his quirks.)

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 13 Jul 2010 18:21

JMHT...

We don't need to strategize the stone pelting issue. It is a pure law-and-order situation. Like RM/Shiv/N3 used to say, these entities are allowed to establish and grow in the "hope" that one day they are useful to other political parties as well.

There should be a clear and simple policy that any organization/activity that is involved in anti-law/order situations, it must be dealt accordingly.

That means removing politics from law-and-order mechanism, especially from civic-supplies, police, and justice systems. Are current political parties ready for this?

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 13 Jul 2010 21:46

Pranav, good article about Tulsi. I seem to recall a controversy about this kid, that he did not achieve what he purported to achieve, a few years ago. In fact, there were allegations of blatant dishonesty, if not fraud. And then the IIS confirmed that what he did was in fact real and impressive. Please clear me up on this if I'm fuzzy!

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 13 Jul 2010 22:38

X-Posted from Indian Foreign Policy Thread

The Long View from Delhi: To Define the Indian Grand Strategy for Foreign Policy: Event at Hudson Institute

Disclaimer: I haven't read the book!

First Impressions after listening to the event broadcast:

***********
One should really listen to Ashley Tellis. He has some good ideas about what ails India.

00:45:22 -- 01:03:10

***********

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 13 Jul 2010 23:16

Varoon Shekhar wrote:Pranav, good article about Tulsi. I seem to recall a controversy about this kid, that he did not achieve what he purported to achieve, a few years ago. In fact, there were allegations of blatant dishonesty, if not fraud. And then the IIS confirmed that what he did was in fact real and impressive. Please clear me up on this if I'm fuzzy!

I don't know a whole lot, but it seems some of his peers who had traveled with him to Germany had claimed that he had only memorized stuff without understanding it. But I guess he has been able to put that episode behind him.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Jul 2010 02:23

Op-Ed in Pioneer, 14 July 2010....

http://www.dailypioneer.com/269046/Blam ... -help.html

EDITS | Wednesday, July 14, 2010 |

Blaming Omar will not help

Rajiv Dogra

Alas, some people are adopting a lynch mob mentality in criticising, and in trying to castigate to irrelevance, Mr Omar Abdullah, the Chief Minister of Jammu & Kashmir. Look at the way a national daily twisted out of context his remarks, in a much broader interview, to give the banner headlines on the front page proclaiming: “I am a lousy politician: Omar.”

Besides sensationalism, it may have succeeded in making a few more people biased against the Chief Minister. But was it fair? The Chief Minister was merely being candid in this interview by holding himself up to a critical mirror. This by itself is a rare quality among politicians. And as a full reading of his interview would show, he was only bemoaning the fact that he had not followed the classic political style of addressing large gatherings regularly, and that judged by those standards he was a “lousy politician”.

Instead of appreciating his intent, this remark became convenient fodder for sensation! This is just one example, among many other recent instances, of critics baying for his blood; calling him inept, inefficient, arrogant and worse. But they misjudge Mr Omar Abdullah.

I have known Mr Omar Abdullah, and in my judgement his critics err enormously. He was a recently installed, thirty-something, junior Minister in the Ministry of External Affairs when we found ourselves in London on 9/11. It was his first official visit abroad and we were taking the circuitous route to Central Asia, which was soon to become the launching pad of American operations against Afghanistan.

Over the next seven days we traversed history through exotic settings in Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. We were witness too to history in making as Presidents, Prime Ministers and Foreign Ministers explained to us their views and concerns about events unfolding then in Afghanistan. As if that were not enough we received the news on arrival in Tajikistan that the legendary guerrilla leader Ahmed Shah Massood had been killed by a Taliban terrorist, clearing thereby the way for the Taliban to take control of the entire country. It was against this perilous backdrop that I saw Mr Omar Abdullah mature in the diplomatic practice.

{In the Af-pak thread there were people who doubted if TSP had ahand in Masood killing. Off course they had for it paved the way for Taliban control of Afghanistan which was needed for next step of 9/11 in order ot provide sanctuary/safe haven for AlQ after the attacks. The plan collapsed when India offered airbases to US and TSP was forced to counter that by guboing.}

Admittedly he was hesitant at first; cautiously wondering whether he was conveying the intended nuances. But each new meeting and every fresh day saw him become more sure footed. By the end of the week he had charmed his way into the Central Asian hearts. And it wasn’t on account of his handsome looks alone. That may have helped, but what really won him friends among the leadership there was a sincerity of approach, generosity in offering Indian aid and transparent honesty in sharing their concerns.

For us diplomats, who were with him during this journey, it was a delight to observe him in action as an articulate spokesman of the Government and as a true nationalist.

Mr Omar Abdullah follows the official script to the last letter because he is a disciplined politician. It is likely that this trait may have got him into his present troubles. All, even according to the critics, had been going well in Jammu & Kashmir. If that was their assessment, how is it then that the mud-slingers have suddenly reached the unanimous conclusion that the youth of the valley had for long been stirring with uncontrollable anger? And that the recent protests are a direct letting off of that steam? If that is indeed so, then these mud-slingers must be extremely short-sighted. Why didn’t they report this stirring anger of the youth in all these months and years of their commentary?

Moreover, why have they remained largely mute about the sacrifices of our security forces? Why don’t our experts include in their narratives the fact that we lose a security official almost every third day in Jammu & Kashmir? Perhaps they have read the entire situation wrong, just as they have misread Mr Omar Abdullah.

Otherwise how can this crisis erupt so virulently, suddenly? Is it not possible that the mischief-mongers, and their masters in Pakistan, were waiting for an opportunity, just any opening, to stir trouble in Jammu & Kashmir? Is it then possible that the recent propaganda about the queerly-termed ‘back channel’ provided them just the spark they needed?

Media reports maintain that the end point of the back-channel talks is greatest possible autonomy, substantial reduction of security forces and free movement of people. In other words the aim is to make borders meaningless. If that is so, then will it not be taken as a sign of weakness by the separatists; a cue for them to hasten the process of lessening state control? If half-a-million or more security personnel can’t fully check the infiltration and violence, then isn’t it rather brave to consider removing the Army almost altogether? Wouldn’t it be open invitation for infiltration en masse from across the borders?

And what is the intent of making borders meaningless? Surely it can’t be a serious aim, because if that is so then it will run counter to Parliament’s resolution which had unanimously affirmed that the entire territory of Jammu & Kashmir belongs to India. Moreover, before encouraging the free movement of people of another country into the State and making borders meaningless for them, shouldn’t we consider the issue in the Indian context too?

Is there any other country in the world which forbids the citizens of its own country from settling in another part of that country? Why can’t the people of India have the right to free movement and settlement in Jammu & Kashmir? Why must the Indian borders restrict them in that sense to the line drawn by Article 370?

Eventually, even the youth of this State may not be averse to change that brings them jobs and economic opportunities. They would also like to have the possibility of setting up their own businesses. But this can only happen in a corruption-free atmosphere; in an administration that does not siphon off routinely bulk of the funds that it receives from the Centre.

Mr Omar Abdullah’s instincts were right; he may erred slightly in governance but then which politician hasn’t? In fact, many far more senior politicians have got away with much more; not just now but in the past as well. He must not be sacrificed to the lynch mobs. He is valuable for Indian democracy; his heart beats for India; and he speaks the language of Kashmiriat.

-- The writer is a former Ambassador

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Jul 2010 22:25

shyamd wrote:
Gagan wrote:Shyamd,
What is your reading on 26/11 trial and how this is going to turn out?
My personal opinion is that TSP govt is only acting on certain individuals because they have to show something to the US and world community and to a certain extent their people of TSP - in order to show some legitimacy of the govt.

How is it going to turn out? Will Pakistan ever bring those responsible to justice?
Some will be put in jail (to show some tough action by TSP govt) - perhaps Lakhvi or some other small guys involved (and then after 12 months will be out and about with new IDs or even kept under house arrest for a while, will keep a low profile and ISI money will continue to reach them and their families). This is what I think will happen to "those who are guilty". Then if relations with India deteriorate, they will be released.

For now I think TSP is just playing the media game - show the world that they are trying to do something. But the world (govts probably do) doesnt realise that these people involved are representatives of the TSP govt.

TSP is the master of deception that has been fooling everyone. Paki's will be Paki's.

Why is GoI doing what it is doing, if we all know that the people who did this are the ones who run that country and not the government of pakistan?
Govt of TSP i.e. Zardari and co don't have any power at all (I think all of us on this board know that)!

One of the statements Pranab made after 26/11 was to say that we need seperate negotiation with the TSP army as they are the ones who really run that country, No point talking to the govt. And I think he said future negotiation will directly be with TSPA. So, which makes me ask the question of what is this drama of meeting Home ministers and Foreign min's all about? Is there a separate track of negotiation directly with ISI/TSPA as Pranab hinted post 26/11? It would make sense if this track is secret as if this would be made public, the govt of TSP would be made illegitemate. So, I think that GoI is playing to an audience abroad, with this trips to TSP.

Truth is, we commoners don't really know what is going on. And I really don't know what GoI is trying to do.

The US is the one that gave us transcripts that linked Kayani directly in Kabul attacks. That should have been enough to goto war. What more evidence do we need? We already know the answer of who is responsible for 26/11.

Even Kabul attack evidence that US provided was enough for us to goto war. But we didn't... So what is GoI's game plan??

I think MMS is more concerned about the economy than TSP terror. Lets say he went to war, it would unite the TSP as a nation. Our economy could suffer as a result. Then lets say if we decisively defeat TSPA and take over vaste swathes of the country - then what? We will have an Iraq type situation with insurgent problems. Is there any point in crossing the border and hitting terror camps with their tents? The core issue of terror isn't going to be solved - it just brings a whole host of problems with it. Its a hassle that we don't need and has proven to be one of the biggest reasons why the US is in trouble and bogged down (side note - if this is true, did the US want us to go to war? ).

26/11, Kabul and other many attacks were simple. It was TSP saying "Yes I did it! Now Hit me". I think going to war with TSP would have united TSP and solved some big internal problems for TSPA. US would be happy as Taliban might be diverted away from Afghanistan and they will head for Kashmir - more Indian resources will be spent on war and not on developing the economy (lets face it, US is worried about our rise and they know India is the next big world power - the British did this in Iraq, you know MI6 had a small station in Kuwait city just to watch the Iraq - Kuwait border and they were just waiting for the day that Iraq would invade.)

If we leave TSP alone - they are left with a begging bowl and at 26/11 time, I think many territories were being taken over by the Taliban. Swat was big in the news at the time right? So MMS and strategicwalla's probably thought, "we don't need to do anything, TSP are already at war internally and their economy can't survive on its own now without funds being doled out by KSA/US".Even today, we know that TSP is worried about Pashtun nationalism and a seperate nation. We also had a lot of success in J&K against terrorists, which helped a lot.

So, in summary, what is GoI trying to do - just wait for TSPs demise, Priority number 1 is our economy - this will allow us to spend TSP to the ground. Talk to TSP govt just to play to the international audience.

Sorry if things are a bit jumbled up in this post and I maybe wrong. This is just my opinion.

One of the best summaries of the situation. The only hedge needed is to make sure it stays a cold war by building up IBGs to ensure a decisive hot war if needed.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jul 2010 20:41

Two x-posts which give a good summary of where we are at this time....
First

RajeshA wrote:
Brad Goodman wrote:So finally SMK & MMS company have done something right. They did not play the ball as that slimy SMQ was hoping. Now I want to see how SMQ behaves when Madam Hillary show up in slumbad.
India does not have that many cards that we can play to force Pakistan to hand over the terrorists. On a different level, the USA too faces Pakistan's perfidy. Whereas Pakistan can always plead, that it does not control the bad lands or the Taliban, in India's case in the mean time it is a bit difficult considering that Hafiz Saeed is a free and public man.

This is a world order, with USA as its primary caretaker and policeman, or at least they like to think of themselves in that way. Now India has gone through the steps and the formalities: had court proceedings for Ajmal Kasab, interrogated Headley, collected interlligence, made the dossiers, had our talks with Pakistan, provided them with all evidence, etc.

There isn't much India can do anymore.

Now it is for America to do its part. Why would they do it - i.e. force Pakistan to deliver on the India-specific terrorists? Right after 26/11, USA did not want India to go to war with Pakistan or even give reason to Pakistan to move their troops onto their Eastern borders, and probably counselled India to go the way of talks. Secondly USA wanted India to feel the impotency of it all, once the military option was taken off the table. Well we have felt that too.

So we know, that partially America's status as superpower derives from the fact, that when one of its allies feels a bit out of their waters in this Pax-Americana, America comes to their support, underlining each time, that they are the superpower.

So India did everything by the book in this Pax-Americana. Now the ball is in the American court. They have to prove, that they are the superpower. If they get the Pakistanis to deliver, then America would have proven, that they are the big boss on the block and can get things done. They would have impressed the Indians. TOIlet and NDTV would go gaga over American help to India. We will all fall heads over heel to embrace our new friend - America the superpower! And MRCA order would go to them.

This is the kind of situation perfectly set up for a superpower to show off. Make a party feel helpless in Pax Americana and then come to its aid, once the party is convinced of its impotency. The dividends are maximum then.

So India has maneuvered herself into that perfect situation and now we await justice. We are in position. We await America.

Have we maneuvered ourselves deliberately into this position of impotency, knowing that we would have to accept America's generosity in exchange for servitude. I think so! Some in India think, they can live with Pax-Americana, and India would more or less able to manage America as well.

The only flaw is India does have the power to get the justice it seeks with or without US help. And is allowing the US to play its role. If that does not happen it could lead to pressures inside India.

CRS's rebuttal to RajeshA's post...

CRamS wrote:RajeshA:

I see a few flaws in your argument:

1) What if USA does not see 26/11 as a colossal a war crime as it should be seen as, and as India sees it? What if USA tells India, yes, we will live up to our side of the bargain, but unless you are prepared to move on Kashmir, we are not prepared to pressure TSP. In other words, you are assuming US is an honest broker here, and treats India as any ally on par with anglo saxon countries like UK, and other staunch allies like Israel where your analysis would ring true. And I have my doubts on that score.

2) Yes, in public, US counselled restraint after 26/11. But at the same time, since 9/11, US has been supplying lots of military goodies to the very war criminals in Rawilpindi who executed 26/11 and countless other terrorist attacks against India. Plus, if you noticed the frentic pace and alacrity with which Kiyani & Co prepared for war after 26/11, it is clear that they are itching to have go. Thus, what if in private, US tells India, look, we can assure you that should you attack TSP, TSP will hit back and give as good as it takes. And of course, the charming used car salesman BS: great power, growing economy, unprecendented India-US strategic relationship bla bla. Do you want to risk all that will be USA's refrain. Once again, US will repeat, give TSP something on Kashmir, and then we will do our bit.

The reason I come to the above conclusions is because it makes me sick to my stomach that in western media, a kind of moral equivalence has been established. See for example, this sick characterization: India wants to talk about 26/11, while TSP wants to talk Kashmir. And then you have that Indian leftist demented scum bag on Beebsinging the same tune.

Bottom line, this could be the AfPak end game, namely, US is going to step in and politely demand that India forget about 26/11 and talk Kashmir (just as Hafeez Saeed wants). And there is a precedent here. Recall, for several months after Kargil, India blew hot. And then white bahadur ambassador Thomas Pickering lands in Dilli and pomposuly lectures to India, that while Kargil cannot be forgotten, it must be transcended. And wallah, Hajpayee, and "my friend Strobe" promptly delivered by sucking up to the very architect of Kargil: war criminal Mush.

Thus, even seasoned diplomat, M K Bhadrakumar, after blowing hot throught most of this analysis, but finally comes to the most cowardlly conclusion:

The best hope is that between now and Obama's expected visit to India in November, US diplomacy succeeds in putting the India-Pakistan dialogue process back on track.

The big question, however, remains: Will the Indian establishment be prepared to forget the past and forgive the ISI for perpetrating the Mumbai attacks?

Sorry to make you guys throw up.

The bigger question will be will the Indian public, and not the establishment, forgive US for allowing the TSP to attack India?

I think GOI has done what it sholud to avoid giving more to TSP before it delivers on the terror front.

BTW its not only TSP that talks about Kashmir but its agents inside and outside the US govt that harp on Kashmir.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 16 Jul 2010 21:37

Ramana wrote:its not only TSP that talks about Kashmir but its agents inside and outside the US govt that harp on Kashmir.

Internally too there are multiple players

- Kashmir separatists
- K-Valley population
- Kashmir political parties (like PDP, NC etc)
- Jammu & Ladakh population
- Non-valley political entities (including INC, BJP)
- WKKs
- Indian Media
- National Political parties (only INC and BJP)
- Indian Bureaucracy
- Indian Armed Forces
- Indian Interests

What the govt can do is to strengthen the bottom section of the list and undermine the upper section to the possible extent.

In strategizing with unkil India must not waver on its core interests. And as long as unkil harps on these core interests, India must not give unkil any space in its non-core interests (like in trade, defense contracts etc).

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 17 Jul 2010 08:11

Kudos to Rajan Zed for taking the battle to the other side

Hindus Urge Vatican to Be Kinder to Catholic Women

Hindus have urged Vatican to be more kind to Roman Catholic women.

New rules announced by Vatican on Thursday reportedly described attempted ordination of women as a 'grave crime' carrying same punishments/procedures/gravity as for sex abuse and heresy.

Hindu statesman Rajan Zed, in a statement in Nevada (USA) today, said that women could disseminate God's message as skillfully as men and deserved equal and full participation and access in religion.

Zed, who is President of Universal Society of Hinduism, further said that as women were equal partners in the society, so they should be equal partners in the religion also.

Quoting Hindu scriptures, Rajan Zed said: Where women are honored, there the gods are pleased.

Roman Catholic Church is the largest of the Christian denominations and is headed by His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI and headquartered in Vatican.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 18 Jul 2010 00:02

As wealth rises in India, so do private towns
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Sou ... vate-towns

Lavasa and Pune, India
In a valley surrounded by seven small hills in western India, a new town is taking shape.
.Its downtown of hotels, a town hall, and Mediterranean-inspired apartments sits beside a manmade lake. Row houses are being built. Uninterrupted power and water are promised – as are top-notch schools, a space education park designed with NASA know-how, and a Nick Faldo Golf Academy.
Lavasa could be the antithesis of today’s Indian cities – a green and orderly space free of the chaos and pollution of, say, Mumbai (Bombay), the sprawling megalopolis only three hours away. Slated to open later this year, it is the most ambitious of a slew of new townships being developed by the private sector, aimed at India’s burgeoning urban elite.such private towns advertise not just walkable streets and swish office buildings but also proximity to IT parks and special economic zones, whose professionals they aim to attract

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 18 Jul 2010 02:09

^^ Saw their website, the buildings look incredibly ugly and unimaginative. The photos of roads in the mountains are taken freshly after the rain to make it look lush green and non dusty, while other than the rainy season area around is so dusty and without vegetation. How the traffic created by thousands of people will pass on those narrow hilly roads is also a mystery.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 18 Jul 2010 05:34

Look for an airport announcement soon. For about 2 decades one of the ways to make money off real estate in Pune has been to buy up land, then announce an airport project. After people have sunk money into property around the "up-and-coming" location, the airport project is cancelled and the scam is repeated again.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 19 Jul 2010 00:36

RamaY wrote:
Ramana wrote:its not only TSP that talks about Kashmir but its agents inside and outside the US govt that harp on Kashmir.
Internally too there are multiple players
- Kashmir separatists
- K-Valley population
- Kashmir political parties (like PDP, NC etc)
- Jammu & Ladakh population
- Non-valley political entities (including INC, BJP)
- WKKs
- Indian Media
- National Political parties (only INC and BJP)
- Indian Bureaucracy
- Indian Armed Forces
- Indian Interests

What the govt can do is to strengthen the bottom section of the list and undermine the upper section to the possible extent.

In strategizing with unkil India must not waver on its core interests. And as long as unkil harps on these core interests, India must not give unkil any space in its non-core interests (like in trade, defense contracts etc).

You have missed some important players inside India who have behind the scene infleunce

JeI-Hind is active player which gets consulted regularly behind the scene by US
Several muslim org inside India have internal dialogues about Kashmir and Kashmiri leaders

Lot of information between the west and the Muslim organization are not reported.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 20 Jul 2010 01:55

Indian bureaucracy to VS Naipaul: Can you prove that you're really Indian?
http://www.boingboing.net/2010/07/18/in ... acy-t.html

Recently, the scheme was in news when Nobel laureate V S Naipaul, whose ancestors belonged to UP's Gorakhpur, was given a hard time by overzealous babus in London when he applied for the card. Naipaul was asked to provide documents to prove that his ancestors indeed lived in India.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 20 Jul 2010 02:00

http://wearethebest.wordpress.com/2010/ ... spondents/
( Babus getting confident and doing right things)

New Delhi: Indian politicians and patriots have long held the belief that the “western” media only relays bad news from Bharat.That, despite all the towering progress made by the emerging superpower, foreign correspondents based out of India only tell their news consumers about death, disease, despair and disillusionment in our glorious land.If not snakes, sadhus and superstition.
As if to underline the point, the Indian government has reportedly refused to extend the visa of Japanese television journalist, Shogo Takahashi of NHK television, allegedly because his reports focused extensively on poverty and the caste system.In other words, “consistently negative reporting” about India, that is “not convenient for the interest of India“.The Times of India reports that Takahashi, 46, first earned the displeasure of Indian officials because his despatches for the TV show Indo no Shogeki (The impact of India) dwelt overtly on the caste system in the Indian electoral system during the 2009 general elections.Word has also now been conveniently leaked by anonymous officials that Takahashi often filmed his documentaries without taking permission or misused permissions to shoot something other than what permission had been taken for, and also shot “high-security” defence installations

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 20 Jul 2010 05:28

^^^ Aah, the types MKG called 'drain inspectors' are denied visas by desi babudom? What a brutal suppression of human rites, eh? LOL. Serves the wannabe gutter-watchers (human) right.

Knew from before that the missionary types are expressedly banned from plying their trade in Yindia (religious visas to india are mighty hard to get, am told). Still, the ej types arrive on tourist visas and do kachra here.

Next hopefully, babudom will take on the local jaichands here. Suspect NGOs and their local collaborators enabling phoren interest to Yindian detriment. The activist types who magically parachute into industrial/power plant/mining sites and magically gather primed and prepped crowds + media glare. Or so one hopes.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jul 2010 21:49

The biggest connondrum facing India is the nature of war that TSP is waging against India.

In my view TSP is waging both an Unconventional War using irregular troops (aka non state actors) based in Pakistan and is feeding an insurgency in Indian with disgruntled Indians in Kashmir and other places in India.

An unconventional war requires a military response, but due to nuke flashpoint and US support of TSP, the military response is being forced to become an internal security/police action. In other words the outward looking military response is being forced to be inward looking. Now this vititates against the fundamental premise of the Consititution that prohibits use of military force against citizenry. Hence all those Armed Forces Special Provisions Act etc to enable military use. This inward response feeds the digruntlement of a section of population further alienating them and feeding the insurgency.

At same time TSP is supporting the insurgency with aid and training and tasking. Once again counter insurgency requires more than a military response and needs civil and military synergy and unity of purpose. Again the dual civil-military separation and the center-state separation in the Indian state are inhibiting factors in combating insurgency.

The Indian response is counter terrorism which is a law and order solution. It is a partial solution for the problem whcih has other aspects of unconventional warfare and insurgency.

So the solution is a better appreciation in the establishment (political, civil services, military forces and media) of the nature of the threat from TSP and a better civil-military coordination to achieve unity of purpose of defeating the dual track attack from TSP.

Along with this there are other civil internal-security issues: Naxalism/Maoist insurgencies, Khalistani alienation, externally located criminals, urban campus disenchantment with Indian state organs.

The media suffers from a littany: foreign ownership, hankering for foreign awards, leftist thinking in the education system, alienation from the idea of India.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 21 Jul 2010 22:38

There is a theory that a mature democracy will always be exploited by neighbouring non-democracies. Moreover a democracy is always handicapped by much slower decision making processes which is taken advantage of. Therefore, under non-democrat neighbour pressure, a democracy is forced to put in measures to bypass the slow decision making process. Which means there has to be a mechanism that decides quickly and efficiently without going through the democratic consensus or majority opinion filter.

Most conflict facing republican or pseudo-democrtatic systems like the Athenians or Romans faced this problem, and it changed the very nature of the state organization into creating provisions for conditional and time limited dictatorships or authoritarian regimes. The problem is that the Indian constitution and setup reflects the peculiar distribution of power centres among Brit ruled, prince ruled, and religious constituencies - with a huge degree of decentralization by default. Note that increasingly party politics is becoming a reflection of fragmentation of power centres and coalitions where electoral minority interests can completely hijack majority interest formation.

On the other hand, if the system, media, admin, parties all continue to behave as they are doing now, it will only eventually paralyze the rashtra and create conditions for authoritarian regimes to take over.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jul 2010 22:53

Bji, the flaw is from Ambedkar's fascination with US Consititution which has this dichotomy between civil and military sectors. Please read the Declaration of Indiependence again. Thus July 4th I heard it read out on the radio and was struck by this thought. I believe that Roman Republic also led to the Imperator State due to the fatal flaw of analysis -paralsysis.

What is needed for modern India is to evolve mechansims with in the Constitutional setup in order to deal with new challenges. The Indian Constitution is quite flexible to give all the powers needed to be a monarchy or an anarchic republic!

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 22 Jul 2010 04:01

Beggar who gave alms to the poor

A beggar on Saturday proved that charity only needs a big heart rather than deep pockets. Khimjibhai Prajapati, 64 and a beggar in Mehsana for a decade, donated clothes to 11 poor hearing and speech-impaired girls at the Shrimati Kesarbai Kilachand School for the Deaf.

Rich philanthropists have been a more common sight but it was the first time ever that a beggar had walked into the school to share his savings. It was an unusual sight. An unkempt Khimjibhai in tattered, unwashed clothes, limped through the school gates on crutches and placed the brand new clothes in the hands of 11 eager girls. He had used his savings of Rs 3,000 to buy the clothes.

Khimjibhai begs outside the Simandhar Swami Jain Temple in Mehsana and outside the Hanuman Temple. He lives nearby and asks the devotees for alms.

So why did he give alms to the unfortunate children at the school? Khimjibhai said, "I just need two meals a day and some money to send back to my ailing wife in Rajkot to cure her ulcers and lung infection. Apart from this, whatever I earn I use to buy food for poor, hungry people. Since a long time I wished to do something for girls and I am happy to donate for them".

Khimjibhai used to run a tea stall in Rajkot but escalating prices and shrinking profit margins wreaked huge losses and left him on the streets.

His faith in God brought him to Mehsana where he took shelter outside the Jain temple. "Whether rich or poor, one should always try to help the needy," he says. Khimjibhai helped an orphanned girl marry some time ago.

Bharat Shah, a trustee of the institution that runs the school, said, "I have never seen such philanthropy in the 35 years of career. He just goes on to prove that the true donor is he who has one roti and shares half with the hungry."

One of those who received clothes was Swati Bhagwandas, an orphan who has been at the residential school for years. The 18-year old's eyes shone with happiness.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 22 Jul 2010 08:12

There is a much bigger India beyond Urban campuses and TV studios.

And even though they might vote for a shiv sena based on local opportunism they are very much there with the idea of India and have faith in the union.

And even though a lot of these guys watch TV they aren't really affected by anti-statist and anti-national propaganda being aired by the psuedos.
Things "seem" bleak to the nationalist elite because of the simple reason that they too are essentially part of the same eco-system that the phoney left, "I studied in Cambridge with Kaldor" brigade belong too. They read the same things, go to the same "parties" metaphorical or otherwise , hover around in delhi or in major cities and wonder of wonders often marry into psuedo families.

Its just that a section of people from what we colloquially call the "general" line in India, especially if they are from ivy league institutions have turned pseudogiri into a cottage industry and are constantly chanting in the media things that grate jingoes.

But at the end of the day, I would say relax. Things are not the way they are made out to be.

And to understand, Jingoes will at some level have to get off their chairs and actually interact with the aaam aadmi- the quintessential Indian. It will not only give the jingo great reassurance, calm him down but also further invigorate him to fight those who are against the rashtra.

Merely carping about "superstructures" and "vocal minorities" getting their way will not work.

By the way I do not agree that most of the "unpopular decisions" taken by the GOI over the years were done on a whim or because of some "organized minority". Quite the contrary.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jul 2010 19:42

X-posted.. Describes the evolution of AFSPA in 1958. Matches what I wrote earlier...

Sorry if posted before.

THE TRIBUNE

11 JULY 2010

Special powers for armed forces
We need clarity, not emotions
by Lt-Gen Vijay Oberoi (retd)

The Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act, 1958, better known as AFSPA, has been brought out of wraps at various opportune times – opportune for those who have either something to gain, i.e. the insurgents in Jammu and Kashmir, political parties always ready to fish in troubled waters, with an eye on electoral gains or those who are regular establishment-baiters, who have made it a habit to take the plunge headlong in any controversy with the belief that if it is against an organ of the government, it needed to be opposed!

Many have called AFSPA a draconian law and have vehemently supported its repeal, but having read quite a few of their views and watched them pontificating on TV, I am convinced that most lack even a rudimentary, let alone in-depth knowledge on the subject. This Act has been in force for over five decades because it was essential for the conduct of smooth counter-insurgency operations by the army. It will continue to be needed as long as the army is employed on counter-insurgency/ terrorism tasks.

The Act was promulgated on September 11, 1958. The rationale for bringing the Act on the statute book needs to be appreciated. When the army was first employed on counter-insurgency tasks in Nagaland in the 1950s, two aspects came to the fore immediately. First, unlike in the case of maintenance of law and order, when the army is called out in ‘aid to the civil authority’, where time is available to employ the police before committing the army, operations against insurgents are entirely of a different genre, as the insurgents do not give any time for such niceties.

The insurgents we are fighting today are heavily armed, they act speedily, commit heinous crimes and disappear. Unless the army counters such actions with speed and not wait for orders from higher civil or military authorities, nothing would be achieved.

{So counter-insurgency requires Armed Forces to act within the borders.}

Secondly, the soldiers and officers of the army had to be protected from prosecution for consequential action taken against insurgents in good faith as part of their operations. Here too, the Act does contain the important caveat that the army personnel can be prosecuted with the Centre’s sanction, if their actions warrant it. There is, therefore, no blanket immunity from the laws of the land.

{It has due protection to guard against civil/human rights abuses}

Over the years, some army personnel have indeed been prosecuted where a prima facie case existed. However, it is also true that due to the exceptional care which all army commanders take when their troops are employed against insurgents, such cases are few and far between.

After the initial employment in Nagaland, the employment of the army on counter-insurgency tasks continued increasing, till it was progressively employed in all the north-eastern states for such tasks. Along with such employment, AFSPA was also invoked in all affected states.

When insurgency erupted in Srinagar in 1990, the Act was extended to the Valley. Later, as the activities of the insurgents spread, first to the Poonch-Rajauri area, then to Doda and Bhadarwah and finally to the whole state, the entire state was brought under the Act’s purview in stages. It can thus be seen that AFSPA was invoked progressively only when the situation required the deployment of the army.

The army is designed and structured for fighting external enemies of the nation. Consequently, they are not given any police powers. However, when the nation wants the army to conduct counter-insurgency and counter-terrorist operations, then they must be given the legal authority to conduct their operations without the impediment of getting clearances from the higher authorities.

{Very, very true. A lawyer has spoken and not a mere general!}

If this is not done, they would be unable to function efficiently and defeat the insurgents and terrorists at their own game. It is for this reason that the Act gives four powers to army personnel. These are for ‘enter and search’, ‘arrest without warrant’, ‘destroy arms dumps or other fortifications’ and ‘fire or use force after due warning where possible’. Once again, there is a safeguard in the Act, which stipulates that the arrested person(s) will be handed over speedily to the nearest police station. {Note Army does not acquire police powers.}

The law stipulates that AFSPA can be imposed only after the area in question is declared a ‘disturbed area’ by the state government concerned. When this writer was the Director-General Military Operations (DGMO) and the army was asked to deploy in the Doda-Bhadarwah area, we requested for the invocation of the Act. The state government was reluctant to do so on account of political considerations, but we did not commence operations till the Act was invoked.

Clearly, the Army has no desire to get embroiled in counter-insurgency tasks. It is not the army’s job. However, despite over 50 years of insurgency in our country, the state police as well as the central police forces (CPOs) have not been made capable of tackling insurgency. Consequently, in each case the army was inducted to carry out counter insurgency/ terrorist operations. If the national leadership tasks the army for conducting such non-military operations, then it is incumbent on the leadership to provide the legal wherewithal to all army personnel employed on such tasks.

{As I said before police forces can never combat insurgency especially when it forms part of unconventional war from external enemies.}

It is only then that the operations will be conducted in the usual efficient manner of the army and would be result-oriented. They also must be legally protected. It is because these two aspects have been catered for that the army has been neutralising the insurgents and terrorists, so that normalcy is restored and the political leaders and officials can restart governing.

The writer is a former Vice-Chief of the Indian Army

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 22 Jul 2010 20:58

A bad decision at the World Court that could mean rough times for India.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20100722/tt ... 02f96.html

World court: Kosovo independence declaration is legal

Kosovo's unilateral secession from Serbia in 2008 did not violate international law, the World Court said on Thursday in a case that could have implications for separatist movements around the globe.

The ruling - a major blow to Serbia - is likely to lead to more countries recognising Kosovo's independence and move Pristina closer to entry into the United Nations.

It may also embolden breakaway regions in other countries to seek more autonomy.

"The court considers that general international law contains no applicable prohibition of declaration of independence," Judge Hisashi Owada, president of the ICJ, said in his ruling.

"Accordingly it concludes that the declaration of independence of the 17th of February 2008, did not violate general international law."

In the Balkans, the ruling could fortify separatist sentiments in the Serb half of Bosnia, another former Yugoslav republic which remains divided along ethnic lines.

The United States and most other Western states recognised Kosovo's February 2008 declaration of independence but Serbia rejected it, as did its ally Russia, a permanent member of the U.N. Security Council.

Serbia lost control over Kosovo in 1999 when a 78-day NATO bombing campaign ended a two-year war between Serbia and ethnic Kosovo Albanians, and put in place a U.N. administration and a NATO-monitored cease-fire.

Although non-binding, the court's ruling will provide a framework for diplomats to try and establish a working relationship between Serbia and Kosovo, a necessary condition for Serbia's entry into the European Union.

It also weakens Serbia's argument that Kosovo is not a legitimate state.

I can just see the Hurry-rats and the Pee Dee Pee salivating at this prospect.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jul 2010 21:00

I too read the report but did not post it here. There are barriers to this happening in India. We can debate later.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 22 Jul 2010 22:44

Ramana,

I think you'll enjoy this

http://krepon.armscontrolwonk.com/archi ... ic-culture

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jul 2010 23:01

A perceptive commentary by CP Bhamabri on the growth of internal secuirty forces in India

Seminar Comments

Bonus is the comments on Bhopal farce by INC govts.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 23 Jul 2010 00:29

That WC judgment can cut more ways than one and in many directions than one. Northern Ireland can declare independence, with a bit of prompting, Scotland can declare independence, Balochis are half ready to declare independence, Tibet can declare independence, East Turkmenistan can do so, Kurdistan can do so, heck even California, Arizona - all may see the light. If even a frog toats about this from any pond in the west, India can make its willingness to support Tibetan, Uyghur, Baloch and even Sindhi independence - well known from the banks of the pond.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Jul 2010 02:12

D Roy wrote:Ramana,

I think you'll enjoy this

Indian Strategic Culture

First, because India has lacked political unity.

Second, the Hindu concept of time, or rather the lack of a sense of time… discourages planning.

Third, Hindus consider life a mystery, largely unknowable and not entirely under man’s control. In this view, fate, intuition, tradition, and emotions play important roles… Man’s control over his life is thus limited in Hindu eyes, and he cannot forecast or plan with any confidence.

This is bladerdash and superficial.

First India lacked political unity. The strategy was to create the Union of India that is Bharat by merging the Princely states with British India and this was done peacefully without bloodshed except for Kashmir where there was British instigation.
No other state can claim this.

Second, Plans are made but not disclosed to prevetn being checkmated... When you dont have power you need to operate under the radar.

Third, usual hippie induced vision distortion of the other. Hindus have the most planned lives of all: brahmacharya, grhihastya and vanaprastha.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 23 Jul 2010 02:25

Hehe,

I knew you'd enjoy it.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 Jul 2010 13:48

analysis like that no wonder they are so fcuked

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 23 Jul 2010 18:34

Indeed, and hence the frequent demands for "more clarity" or "your vision for Asia" or "more transparency" of intentions and so on...

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 24 Jul 2010 00:25

By criticising Pillai, Krishna has played into Qureshi's hands
B Raman

Previously, national security problems used to arise due to the lack of coordination at the level of intelligence and physical security agencies. In the Manmohan Singh [ Images ] government, such problems are arising due to the lack of co-ordination at much higher levels such as those of the home secretary, the foreign secretary, the defence secretary and the cabinet secretary. This does not bode well for our national security management.
This episode also does not speak well of the sense of propriety and professional leadership on the part SM Krishna. At the joint press conference at Islamabad, Krishna failed to rebuke the Pakistani foreign minister when he compared the home secretary's disclosure to the media to the instigatory statements of the amir of the Lashkar e Tayiba. Krishna is now trying to cover up his confused and over-awed silence on the grounds of good manners. This is ridiculous.His blaming the home secretary in two media interviews is totally in violation of the rules of ministerial etiquette under which a minister should not pull up his senior officers in public. Any rebuke must be administered in private and not in public.Krishna's unwise action might affect the stature of the home secretary in the eyes of his own staff. The correct thing for Krishna would have been to convey his unhappiness to Home Minister P Chidambaram and let him decide how to deal with the matter.
Moreover, by publicly expressing his disapproval of the home secretary's action, Krishna has enabled his Pakistani counterpart to justify his raising the issue of the home secretary's disclosure to the media in the obnoxious manner he did.

http://news.rediff.com/column/2010/jul/ ... -hands.htm

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jul 2010 00:56

The Telegraph article says that SMK was speaking for the PM. Sri Raman should take it up with those who matter and not those who are mouthpieces

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 24 Jul 2010 01:33

JE Menon wrote:Indeed, and hence the frequent demands for "more clarity" or "your vision for Asia" or "more transparency" of intentions and so on...

India is a growing population which will surpass all nations. That means there is a larger role and vision which cannot be disclosed until that time is reached.

But the article gives lot of clues.

This dichotomy — the simultaneous sense of security based on geography and the realization that geography has failed to keep India secure — is partially offset by India’s ability to accommodate in various ways to invaders, thus creating and strengthening an evolving culture that plays a crucial role in modern India’s identity. The dichotomy has, however, led to feelings of pride and confidence intermingled with feelings of insecurity and risk

This is a typical DIE mentality and the author George Tanham really believed that DIE and the elite will have all the answers to Indian strategic thought!

After the withdrawal of Great Britain from the subcontinent, independent India inherited the desire to emulate its former ruler: Progressively, but inescapably, India leaders since independence have assumed the mantle of the British raj.

Looks like they have never peeped into the Bharatiya traditions.

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 24 Jul 2010 05:39

Found this site extremely interesting, similar to NV Subramaniam's columns.

http://magadhstrategy.in/

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jul 2010 06:33

Glad you are following it.

Bharath.Subramanyam · Post by **Bharath.Subramanyam** » 24 Jul 2010 21:18

There is a post on some supporters & Bihar analysis:

http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index ... ntry107605

"These kinds of reports/analysis are very much further away from real data or ground situation. This is one of the reasons why central leadership in Delhi doesn't take these organizations/forums seriously.

Some NRIs think that now I have read all about geopolitics & strategy in the internet, read news reports on a hourly basis, has some friends/acquaintance in RSS/BJP circles, I understand Indian politics & BJP in particular........"

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jul 2010 23:16

x-post...

shiv wrote:Imagining that a particular political party is going to make India better actually encourages the Pakistaniyat in me to say - OK India is too full of ignorant morons and the right way forward is to use my existing money and influence to lead a RAPE style life and to hell with the country.

I think what a lot of people do not realise is that it is so easy to do. Every politician is doing exactly that regardless of party and you have to be they most naive sucker on earth to imagine that some guy is better than the other. Taking the RAPE way out is easy.

The lifestyle of the politicians in India and those of the elite are ditto copies of the lifestyle of the RAPE. Pakistanis of course live in sullen silence and we the educated do not even bother listening for the Indians who live in sullen silence - so convinced are we that party makes a difference. You need to live 30 years as an earning adult in India paying your property tax, road tax, cess on education, cess on fuel, cess on poverty, cess on infrastructure, cess on drought, service tax professional tax, be forced to spend money on urgently setting up things the government demands (Solar water heating, water harvesting, shifting of electric meter to a place where someone can see it from the road), watch as ministers children block road with construction material as they build palaces while your 30x40 site gets grabbed by mafia who have ilegal papers and goons to really understand India.

I think all you guys who are supporting one party over another on this thread do not even have a clue about Indian politics and are talking crap. Please spare me this on the Pakistan thread. Why do I get the feeling that a lot of the people who are party pooping on here live abroad. if you live in India you will either know reality or you are a party worker getting privileges for shouting party slogans on BRF. At least in India those guys can be controlled.

Some guys just dont have a friggin clue..

If you live in India and are wealthy you don't need any goddam patriotism. You can live a lifetime of luxury. Patriotism has to be actively inculcated. Party politics just does not cut it. I am reminded of a joke I was told yesterday

A man returned from abroad to India's sacred soil and smeared the holy earth over his face, then smelt it and said

"Yeh mitti puraane waale mitti jaise nahin hai"

A bystander watching him says

"Arre bhai. Woh mitti nahin hai, tutti hai"