Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

[BajKhedawal]

Yes but a lot more aggressive posture with rigid body and thighs at a parallel to ground, and seemed intimidating even though the face (and body) was human and expression not fierce at all. There was no cloth band to hold the knees together, probably had both hands by each side.

[partha]

Putnanja: cool! I hope you are reading the kannada version. The language and the emotions it evokes is unbelievable, at least to me!

Yes. I am reading Kannada version only.

[Atri]

Atri,
Can you comment on Krishna's description of the power structure in Bharata before he urges Yudhistra to send his brothers on Dik vijaya?

Thanks, ramana

Sure, dada... Give me some time..

[ramana]

A dated book review by Pradip Bhattacharya at Boloji.com

Splitting the Difference...Gender and Myth in Ancient Greece and India by Wendy Doniger
Surprised by Joy

With the European colonization of India, western scholars noticed a commonalty between the Hellenic and the Indian mythologies and sought to establish that this was a consequence of Greek traditions filtering through to India with Alexander’s invasion. A British army officer even wrote a study showing that the Ramayana story had been borrowed from Homer (after all, Alexander is supposed to have slept with a copy of the Iliad under his pillow). Therefore,

The similarities between Helen and Sita are not a new discovery. Aware of this, Doniger begins with Helen but quickly switches to what is her new contribution to Indological studies: the Rig Vedic myth of Martanda, the “dead egg,” named Vivasvant the Sun, and his wife Saranyu-Samjna. She suggests that both Helen, the adulteress, and Sita, the chaste wife, have their model in Saranyu who is sexually ambivalent. Doniger brings in the modern comparison with Bram Stoker’s Lucy who is prim during the day and lascivious vampire by night. It is by night that Helen tries to trap the Greeks hidden within the wooden horse, Svaha-like with Agni (a comparison Doniger misses) assuming the persona of their wives. Doniger does not notice that when the disguised Ravana approaches Sita, he begins with an elaborate description of her physical charms. Sita does not sense something wrong in a sage using such language, but proceeds to engage in dialogue, like Ahalya revelling in Indra’s praise, climaxing in the rape. In her hidden sexuality she resembles Helen who is, of course, much more open about it. Both are ayonija, not of woman born.

If Sita immured in the earth, Ahalya is petrified. Doniger fails to study the myth of Sita’s transformation into Shakti for slaying the thousand-headed Ravana who knocks Rama unconscious, which offers further insights into the complicated mystique of the feminine. Rama, terrified as Arjuna of Krishna’s Vishvarupa, and prays to her to resume her familiar form. Saranyu is also linked to Demeter who changes into a mare to avoid Poseidon but is raped by him in stallion form. Like Helen, she is linked to semi-immortal twin brothers/sons [the Dioscuri and the Ashvins]. Doniger provides a valuable hint of why the Ashvins are called Nasatyas, possibly akin to the Greek verb nes connoting returning to life and light. That is why Nasatyas are “retrievers” and recover the daughter of the Sun, Suryaa. Doniger’s analysis takes us back to mankind’s origins: immortal Saranyu, wedded to the Sun that dies daily, gave birth to Manu, the first man, and to Yama, lord of the dead. Saranyu’s aversion of her ill-shaped or ill-favoured spouse leads to the creation of the shadow self Savarna [like herself] and her own transformation into equine form. This is where Doniger brings back Helen and introduces Sita, throwing around them the common myth of the shadow-self whereby Helen approaches the chastity characterising Sita. In one version, Paris is supposed to have assumed the form of Menelaus [like Indra assuming Gautama’s form before Ahalya] leaving Helen blameless in the seduction. This absorbing presentation is enriched by comparisons with little known Japanese and Indonesian myths and analysing how the Saranyu myth is presented to modern Indian children in comic book format.

Next, she proceeds to study the myths of Indra-Ahalya and Zeus-Alcmena. The theme of doubling and the dilemma of which is the real self recurs along with the male myth-maker’s predilection to condemn the woman, wondering whether she was at all truly deceived, suspecting that innately she is the dark one who manoeuvres to satisfy her sexual desires [Pandora and la belle dame sans merci]. There is an interesting parallel to Zeus disguised as Amphitryon and Indra as Gautama in the tale of Agni who becomes the Brahmin Suvarcha to woo Bhasvati. The mortal maid rejects the god, as in the other Greek and Indian myths, preferring his mortal disguise. The Indra-Ahalya story has a very interesting parallel in that of Ruchi, wife of the sage Devasharma, who longs to be seduced by the eager Indra, but is saved by the faithful disciple Vipula who occultly enters her body and prevents her from responding. In both cases, the ascetic’s wife is curious about sexual intimacy with a celestial. But there is an interesting aftermath: Vipula sees two symbols and realises that during the act of possession his genitals had touched his guru’s wife’s. Subodh Ghose used this hint in his retelling of this story (Bharat Prem Katha), as Candra Rajan does in her poem on Ahalya, to provide a brilliant psychological reinterpretation of ancient myth. The opposite of this is found in the myth of Shrutavati who mortifies herself through incessant austerities to win Indra as her spouse, like Vedavati for Vishnu. Indra tests her by disguising himself as Vashishtha and setting her to cook magical berries. Running out of kindling, Shrutavati uses her own body as fuel. This is the original of the folk tale Doniger cites of the ghost-wife using her own legs as cooking fuel. Failing to acquire their celestial beloveds, both Vedavati and Shrutavati immolate themselves. Similarly, the femme fatale theme is paralleled in the tale of Sushobhana, the mundaka princess, who makes a career out of seducing men and leaving them forlorn by disappearing in frog form, till she meets her match in Parikshit who launches a holocaust of frogs, forcing them to give her up to him. Here, like Pandora, Sushobhana turns out to be the nemesis not only of men, but also of her own race.

Changing tack, Doniger studies Penelope and Odysseus side-by-side Nala and Damayanti. Here is a different type of woman, intelligent and faithful, who uses strategy to recognise her disguised husband and win him back. Part of this is the fascinating conundrum of how to distinguish a human from a god, for which she seeks clues in the story of Cyavana and Sukanya, in the film Total Recall, and the even more fascinating question: why prefer a human to a god? She could have added here how the disguise of the Pandavas is seen through by Krishna, although he has never met them. Krishna’s is a Sherlock Holmesian deduction, which forms a fitting complement to the hints by which Sukanya and Damayanti make out their spouses. Doniger points out that the male rejects the immortal female [Arjuna/Urvashi, Odysseus/Calypso, Enkidu/Ishtar, Cephalus/Aurora], while the female at times chooses the immortal mistaking him for mortal owing to the disguise [Ahalya/Indra, Alcmena/Zeus]. Most of the Indian myths she studies have been retold with superb psychological insight by the eminent Bengali novelist, Subodh Ghose, in Bharat Prem Katha whose study would have benefited Doniger. Her impeccable scholarship takes a tumble when she refers to Urvashi instead of Shakuntala as “the mother of Bharata.”

In preferring the mortal, woman shows her inability to withstand the inhumanity it takes to become immortal, unchanging, barren. Doniger provides an extremely refreshing and telling symbol in The Wizard of Oz where Dorothy prefers her real home to the magical world of fantasy. The point is that goddesses bring death to mortal men, while women prefer death to immortality--it is the female who is responsible for death. However, she does not take the discussion farther to include Saranyu’s twin sons fathering twins on Madri (mortal woman choosing the immortal equine twins—the exact opposite of Sukanya—going on to become the immediate cause of her husband’s death and then immolating herself on her husband’s funeral pyre). Analogous is the case of Kunti, a mortal who can compel any immortal to her bidding, a unique character in Indo-European myth. Both are examples that stand outside the paradigm Doniger seeks to build, of the mortal woman unwilling to succumb to the immortal’s desire. Nor does she explore the similarity between Ganga and Kunti, immortal female and mortal woman, who consign their firstborns to the river. Kunti, like Aditi who rejects her dead son-sun, consigns her sun-born son to sure death in the river and is responsible for his death by concealing his true birth. Similarly, Thetis is responsible for the death of her son Achilles who, Karna-like, blazes like the sun in his divinely forged armour, by leaving that vulnerable spot on his heel while immersing him head-first (drowning him?) into the river. It is surprising that Doniger omits the pertinent tale of Tulsi and the demon Shankhachuda invincible because of his wife’s chastity. Vishnu took the shape of Shankhachuda and bedded Tulsi, leading to the demon’s decapitation. The consequence is significant: Tulsi, like Daphne, turns into a plant after she transforms Vishnu, by her curse, into stone (Saligram)--a reversal of the Ahalya situation, with the deceiving god being petrified, while the woman escapes from her raped self by assuming a different form. But as Daphne-laurel is inevitably linked with Apollo, so is Tulsi an indispensable part of worshipping Saligram-Vishnu.

The fourth and fifth chapters deal with the intriguing theme of beheaded women and men, and the transposing of heads on different bodies. The myth of Renuka is compared with that of Scylla and the symbol of Chinnamasta who carries her severed head in one hand, with the core issue of schizophrenia analysed through Bram Stoker’s Lucy. The medieval legend of the Lamia would have provided valuable insights had Doniger analysed it. The myths of Chinnamasta and Renuka need to be studied alongside the Bacchic maenads who, in Dionysian frenzy, rip off their husbands’/sons’ heads, for this Greek myth is exactly the opposite of the Indian. She provides a fascinating comparison of the male instance from the Vetalapancavimsati with the fictional Dorian Gray, Jekyll and Hyde. While discussing the phenomenon of splitting personalities and of sex change, Doniger does not take up the myth of Ardhanarishvar, the hermaphrodite, so akin to Greek myth. This form, half male-half female, appeared when Shiva embraced Vishnu-Mohini passionately. Doniger provides a long extract from Vilas Sarang’s amazing tale, “The Bottom Half of a Woman” but misses one of the most apt modern renderings of this concept: Edgar Rice Burroughs in his Chessmen of Mars creates heads with spider like chelae that choose a body according to their need, while the bodies, like the torso-less entities of Vilas Sarang, lead mute animal existence. These heads literally possess the bodies, like Sindbad’s Old Man, and remind us of the tales of possession that figure in world mythology, including male spirits taking possessing women’s bodies. How often does one hear these days, “I am a woman trapped in a man’s body!”

In the split personality/transposed heads/doubles discussion, Doniger spans the gamut from Stevenson and Oscar Wilde to Hollywood [Face Off, Dark Mirror, A Stolen Life, Dead Ringer, Double Impact, 3 Faces of Eve, Shattered, Total Recall]. She even includes Superman-I, the modern version of a god involved with a mortal woman, and quotes a hilarious piece by Larry Niven describing the danger if the Kryptonian bedded Lois Lane. She could have added that as Saranyu/Alcmena found the radiance of Vivasvant/Zeus unbearable, so did Ganga who had to cast Shiva’s seed out on the reeds, finding it literally “too hot to handle” as Larry Niven forecasts Kryptonian semen would be for Lois Lane. And why does she forget Semele who was burnt to ashes by Zeus’ radiance? Doniger misses out Superman-III, where the hero gets split into an evil double who is typically unshaven, dissipated and keeps company with the vamp, providing a 1980s version of Jekyll and Hyde. She also overlooks the very powerful portrayal of Batman in films that conflate the darkness and terror of Dracula with a moral purpose: man donning evil’s garb to fight evil. The comic books have taken this a step further by turning the vampire figure itself into a friend of law and justice. The entire genre of comic book heroes, starting with the masked Phantom [significantly ‘the Ghost who cannot die’] and The Lone Ranger, down to the legion of super heroes, depicts the apotheosis of the alter-ego concept in the American imagination.

The final chapter deals with bisexual transformation in India and Europe. One of the most engrossing insights Doniger provides is how Kali reincarnates as Krishna while Shiva takes birth as Radha to savour the delights of a different sexual existence. Doniger’s conclusion is that women in Hindu myths are more akin to Greek women than to their own men. Penelope testing Odysseus is much more like Damayanti confronting Nala than another Greek like Menelaus when he faces Helen. Thus, gender is seen to transcend culture, in that women across different civilizations resemble each other more than men in their own cultures. In a way, Culture is seen as the shadow of Gender.

Engrossing and impressive as the book is, there are a few points that Doniger seems to have missed. One is surprised to find the only instance in mythology of a woman split five ways—Draupadi—missing from the discussions. Besides this, Draupadi has to split herself into three contradictory roles with five brothers: wife, mother (as spouse of elder brother) and daughter (as spouse of younger brother), changing the roles every year. The brothers themselves have to ring changes in their roles as spouse, father-like and son-like, matching her shifting persona. There is a treasury of prohibited relationships here deserving analysis. Draupadi is not only ayonija like Ahalya, Sita and Athene, springing full grown from the sacrificial altar, but also has a twin in the warrior Dhrishtadyumna, who compensates Drupada for his offspring Shikhandi, woman-turned man. Moreover, Doniger ought to have noticed that Draupadi is the reincarnation of Vedavati who became the shadow-Sita.

Professor Doniger’s latest work is an astonishingly gripping book. Into an intensely erudite examination of comparative mythology that could have become turgid reading, she infuses a style that sparkles with wit, revelations that startle, unexpected comparisons that surprise with joy. Her stated purpose is to show that “myth responds to the complexities of the human condition by splitting its characters into two unequal halves…centring on two primal topics: sex and death.” The splitting is not only of oneself, but also of others to get what they want or to avoid some eventuality. The myths investigated brilliantly and presented so engrossingly are shown to serve another purpose: to enable men and women to express their creativity in envisaging possible futures that transcend the traditional norms and expectations by constructing other selves to live in. Thus, stories have been used, Doniger writes, “to storm the oppressive barricades of gender and culture.”

– Pradip Bhattacharya
August 26, 2001

Splitting the Difference-Gender and Myth in Ancient Greece and India by Wendy Doniger, University of Chicago Press, 1999, pp.376, paperback with notes, bibliography, index.

[ramana]

A treasure trove of Mahabharata inspired literature:

http://www.mahabharata-resources.org/inspired.html

[ramana]

The word Naga was also used to for Andhras even during Shatawahanas period.

kashmir and areas around that too. taxila is supposed to have been set up by takshak, a naga king.

You know I have been thinking about the human interpretations of the Mahabharata. The Janmejaya sarpa yagna, where the retelling of the Mahabharata occurs, due to the killing of Maharaja Parikshi t by Takshaka, the Naga king. The usual rendering is that Takshak was king of snakes. Moreover we know from the Khandava vana dahanam that Takshak escaped the forest fire set by Arjuna. Now what if the Nagas were people and in reality the killing of Parikshi t was a revenge against the Pandavas. If so it puts the Nagas in present day Taxila after escaping the Khandava vana region.

Could it be they are the ancestors of the modern day Pashtuns who are equally vengeful?

[Carl_T]

I think the ancestors of modern day Pashtuns might rather be the PakthAs of the rgveda.

[putnanja]

kashmir and areas around that too. taxila is supposed to have been set up by takshak, a naga king.

You know I have been thinking about the human interpretations of the Mahabharata. The Janmejaya sarpa yagna, where the retelling of the Mahabharata occurs, due to the killing of Maharaja Parikshi t by Takshaka, the Naga king. The usual rendering is that Takshak was king of snakes. Moreover we know from the Khandava vana dahanam that Takshak escaped the forest fire set by Arjuna. Now what if the Nagas were people and in reality the killing of Parikshi t was a revenge against the Pandavas. If so it puts the Nagas in present day Taxila after escaping the Khandava vana region.

Could it be they are the ancestors of the modern day Pashtuns who are equally vengeful?

In the Parva book that I had alluded to earlier, the author holds that nagas were the people living in Khandava vana. Nagas are treated as a different class of people.

The author SL Bhyrappa actually spent close to two years going around the various places mentioned in Mahabharatha, and interacting with local people and experts, and also with Bhandardkar Oriental research institute in Pune.

[ramana]

Coloring Projects for Hindu gods

1) 4 to 40 siteLINK

2) Kids Coloring pages

3) Another page

HN take a look.

[brihaspati]

I have seen the type you describe in remote centres of Terai and foothills of the Himalayas. It is rare on western Rajputana side. It is almost certainly associated with certain Tantric schools I am familiar with. The Lingayats avoid this type of depiction. I am curious now and have sent a query. I will let you know when I "know". Because for me it would be an interesting possible connection with specific "eastern" and Himalayan forms of Tantrism. I moved away from exploring those schools as an adolescent as some of the stuff jarred a bit on me, and there are alternative streams within the school.

[ramana]

Bji,
I put a link in the Best sellers thread. Please take a look.

[negi]

Bji are you hinting at 'aghor' side ?

[brihaspati]

Yes. But some agama strands can match skull by skull. I would reco only the "fire/flame" meditation as the safe one, and shakti as daughter [did not like the connotations of the "mother" or the "wife" - the latter is supposed to be the most risky, and was the main reason I had opted out as she increasingly tended to transform to the latter]. The meat+cohol+girl is not necessary unless you are tri-curious!

I am curious in this case, because I do know of legends of "transfer of deities" from "east" to the "west", and from "west" to the "east". My family carried one which was reputed to be from a similar area. Some "eastern" forms were also taken to the "west".

Once a lady who was a guest at my place had brought a shakti idol without letting me know. I was single at the time abroad, and went to sleep as usual. At night in bed I came to "know" the deity had not been given "fruit" and that "she" was furious. So the next morning I said to my guest that she should go out and get some fresh fruit and give it to her idol. She was shell-shocked, and called back her parents in desh who told her that the deity's "birthday" [installation day] was the very day and fruits had to be given. My guest apologized profoundly and said she did not tell me because she knew me as a fierce agnostic and militant atheist. I guess all this added to the "aura" of the deity as a really active and alive one. I did not tell her of the period in my life when I had done some of the stuff.

[negi]

^ That sounds creepy, now I have some first hand experience with sadhus and tantriks in my native place and have seen them making some tall claims and pull off unbelievable stuff but I used to think that it is some how all fixed between the villagers and the godmen. For instance I have witnessed 'Jaagars' (a ritual usually conducted in midnight when gods and spirits of our ancestors are summoned to seek help ) in my native place in Garhwal and I have actually seen people suddenly taken over by something and they behave as if possessed by some spirit , they are then asked questions with regards to family issues/disease or whatever it is which is the cause for takleef. Good thing is Jaagars are very cool i.e the ritual involves the 'Jagari' (the tantrik) singing hyms (basically tales from Mythology in praise of the deity to be invoked in Garhwali) with percussion instruments viz. 'Daur' ,' Dhol' and a 'thali' (has to be made of Bronze) for eg. to invoke lord 'Narsimha' (said to belong to my mother's 'kul' as her protector ) the 'jagari' would narrate the whole story of 'Hrinyakashyapu and Prahlada'.

On a lighter note while my grandfather would oversee the whole thing when I asked him about the whole concept he would brush it aside as 'sab bakwaas hai ye sab teri dadi ka kaam hai' (its all nonsense all your grandmother's handiwork) .

[Atri]

There are so many faculties of mind that are not explored by the west and forgotten by the Indians.. These forces or idols are the tools OR the keys of those particular faculties of Body (Sharira)-Mind (Maanas)-Intellect (Buddhi)-Ego (Aatman) and beyond. This concept that is forgotten by Indians also constitutes deracination. Not all are masters of all their mental faculties. But the knowledge that such knowledge and tools exist, was there in all Indians.. now, that is slowly evaporating from the radar of urban masses.. this is deracination. The core knowledge is safe with these "fringe elements" of society and can be easily be retrieved once dharma is established. Its beginning already..

The key is "chitta-vritti nirodha" (chitta is Origin of Chetana) on any of these tools to "enable" or "disable" any particular faculty of these four layers of "I". Controlling the tendencies of "Chetana" on any of these mental faculties. This is beyond the petty concept of "theism" and "atheism".

[brihaspati]

Thats true! Most of these "processes" are means of tapping into another level of consciousness. the Matrix captures the idea very well - where abstract codes take the shape of "characters" through which we interact. The deity could simply be place-holders and "Avatars" in the IT sense.

[RamaY]

If we take the interactions between Purusha (ahamkara) and Five senses and Five elements we will have 11! = 3,99,16,800 permutations. Each one of the interaction has a Adhi-devata (demi-god) in SD cosmic science. By reciting that demi-god's mantra one can energize that specific combination (focused recital of a mantra creates the conscious-image of that demi-god in our consciousness=perception)

Sri-Chakra is one such yantra (blue-print). It is the monarch of Yantras as it depicts the blue-print of the interaction between Siva (Tat) and Shakti (Maya). And each interacting triangle (The triangles formed by the interactions of higher level triangles) is the abode of a certain form of Shakti.

A seeker can experience this whole chakra by starting at the bindu (center) and moving outwards thus learning how the whole universe came in to being or start at the outer Avarana (perimeter) and move towards brahman.

[RamaY]

Ramanaji,

You asked this question a while ago!

From Sri Muktheswar's Holy science

Seven Spheres or Swargas

7th sphere, Satyaloka - The foremost of these is Satyaloka, the sphere of God - the only Real Substance, Sat, in the universe. No name can describe it, nor can anything in the creation of Darkness or Light designate it. This sphere is therefore called Anama, the Nameless.

6th sphere, Tapoloka - The next in order is Tapoloka, the sphere of the Holy Spirit which is the Eternal Patience, as it remains forever undisturbed by any limited idea. Because it is not approachable even by the Sons of God as such, it is called, Agama, the Inaccessible.

5th sphere, Janaloka - Next is Janaloka, the sphere of spiritual reflection, the Sons of God, wherein the idea of separate existence of Self originates. As this sphere is above the comprehension of anyone in the creation of Darkness, Maya, it is called Alakshya, the Incomprehensible.

4th sphere, Maharloka - Then comes Maharloka, the sphere of the Atom., the beginning of the creation of Darkness, Maya, upon which the spirit is reflected. This, the connecting link, is the only way between the spiritual and the material creation and is called the Door, Dasamadwara.

3rd sphere, swarloka/suvarloka - Around this atom is swarloka, the sphere of magnetic aura, the electricities. This sphere, being characterized by the absense of all the creation (even the organs and their objects, the fine material things) is called Mahasunya, the Great Vaccum.

2nd sphere, Bhuvarloka - The next is Bhuvarloka, the sphere of electric attributes. As the gross matters of the creation are entirely absent from this sphere, and it is conspicuous by the presence of the fine matters only, it is called Sunya, the Vacuum Ordinary.

1st Sphere, Bhuloka - The last and lowest sphere is Bhuloka, the sphere of gross material creation, which is always visible to everyone.

Sapta Patalas - As God created man in His own image, so is the body of man like unto the image of this universe. The material body of man has also seven vital places within it called Patalas. Man, turning toward his Self and advancing in the right way, perceives the Spiritual Light in these places, which are described in the Bible as so many churches; the lights like stars perceived therein as as so many angels.

Bhuvanas, the stages of creation - The above mentioned seven spheres of Swargas and the seven Patalas constitute the fourteen Bhuvanas, the fourteen distinguishable stages of the creation.

[BajKhedawal]

Thank you for taking the effort Brihaspati, I will keep a look out for your note. Although for today it seems like idle curiosity on my side, the memory of it refuses to fade away.

For the first time out of curiosity I went to a Pow Wow yesterday (Native American Actor Apesanahkwat was the guest dancer), it was interesting but I got a feeling that all the show of dignity and ritual was shallow and for money making purpose only.

I sought out one of their world renowned dancer (many awards, performed at Olympics, etc) and had a brief conversation about origin of native americans. On one hand he put forward "We were made to spontaneously appear on this continent by divinity himself 5000 years ago" theory and discarded white men Bering strait theory, but he was also quick to grab on to argument as to why then asians and native americans have similar myths, then he was quick to point out we could be related, endorsing the Bering strait theory.

They also had some native artifacts for sale, and I was looking around for a set of cuff links. It was by chance that one vendor had a set. It was two turquoise stones set in a sterling silver frame made in the shape of two intertwining snakes (made by some famous zuni lady whose work is on display at Smithsonian). I did not buy it because it was $65, but rather due to my kalsarpyog. Apparently my ancestors surely would have IED'ed several sarps given that it’s the baj's diet.

Naga it seems plays a very important role in ALL native american cultures, previously I thought it was only the aztecs.

[brihaspati]

The Zunis are distinct, and have many memes quite similar to certain east Indian streams. "Serpent" is treated as sign of wisdom by most of the west-coast natives. The Zunis in particular might not have shown their real rituals. This is not supposed to be performed in the presence of non-Zunis or those who have not been allowed to be "adopted" and sworn to secrecy. If possible inquire discreetly as to the time of the year and the day on which they perform one of their most important dances. If you get the date right you will see an immediate significance for a certain autumn Hindu/Vedic ritual. Maintaining the aura of secrecy!

There is an alternate theory that the natives could have reached by sea along a more southerly route. Their self acknowledged start of civilization appears to be later than the archaeological evidence around Clovis some 9000 BCE (or even before if the ice-pack drifting theory of migration from France holds) but coincides with the 3000 BCE mark - a significant period probably of war and dispersal and chasing out of "Nagas" from northern India, in MB after the clash with the Kurus/Pandavas - Balaramas hidden Naga flowing into the sea in many "heads".

[BajKhedawal]

I can't picture the zuni celebrating:

Raksha Bandhan
Janmasthami
Durga Pooja
Navratri
Diwali
Dusshera....probably

So then is it Nag Panchami? really!!

[Atri]

Geopolitical scenario of Indian subcontinent prior to the initiation of Dikvijaya by Pandavas prior to Raajsooya sacrifice.

The key players of "western India" then were Yadavas, Panchals and Kurus from Modern Haryana, Punjab, Western UP, Northern Rajasthan, Northern MP region. The players in eastern India were primarily Jarasandha of Magadh.

While everybody is familiar with gross picture of how Pandavas arrived at conclusion of going for Raajsooya, there were many other parallel threads which were shaping the polity of India ruled by Arya people.

Geography of India in MBH times


1. Rivalry between Magadha and Yadavas of Mathura (this is key interaction which played critical role in forthcoming events)
2. Internecine rivalry amongst house of Kurus (Kuravas and Pandavas)
3. Rivalry between Kurus and Panchalas (the episode of Drupad's defeat by disciples of Dronacharya {Drona's Guru-Dakshina} as settlement of personal score against Drupad). Although this is tertiary and rather indirect and ineffective factor to shape the destiny of India's geopolilty significantly on its own. It played a supportive role, however. Lets see the polity of India just before appearance of Krishna on the political scene of India.

1. Magadha-Mathura Rivalry: The process of Saraswati's dessication was ongoing. Population migration towards Gangetic valley (towards Magadha) happening slowly. The King of Mathura (Ugrasena and later Kamsa) smartly established marital relations with Jarasandha of Magadh. Magadh, the true powerhouse of India called shots over entire Gangetic valley. Jarasandha's daughters were married off to Kamsa of Mathura by his father. The other Yadava clans (notably of Chedi - modern Bundelkhand) too were close allies of Magadh. Magadh was building close relations with power-centres of Central India (Vidarbha King Bheem and later his elder son Rukmi) and Deccan plateau (Shrugaal, king of Karveer {modern Kolhapur in MH}). Overall, there is seen quite a lot of bonhomie seen in Magadh and central India, although according to MBH, that pax-magadha was enforced by Strength than amicably.

2. Disarray in house of Kuru: Kurus were in bad books of kings from NWFP and Gaandhar (marriage of gandhari to blind dhritarashtra perceived as blatant treachery by Shakuni, the crown prince of Gandhaar (modern Kandahar). Kurus were in bad books of Kings from Central UP (Especially Kashi after abduction of three princesses by Bhishma). The flow of Saraswati decreasing Bulk of western Kuru falls in upper Saraswati Basin. The River Yamuna was tributary of Saraswati, so was Sutlaj. With freely flowing Saraswati, Kuru clan occupied the "prime real estate of India". The land with three major river systems - Ganga in east, Saraswati in centre and Sindhu in west. However, this is a polity which is "marked by time" for eventual decline. This is further complicated by internal squabbles of Kurus which everybody knows about. However, the liquid power and inertia of Kurus is very high (which aptly and poetically described by Vyasa maharshi), which keeps them going.

3. The Confused Panchala: Panchala was the "swing-state" in contemporary geopolity, IMHO. It would have gone with any of the two powers, IMO. While it was close to Panchalas (Panchalas and Kurus were related clans few generations before). However, it was sitting on the downstream of Ganges which was growing powerful, while Monsoon was declining. The significant presence of "Magadh Lobby" in Draupadi's Swayamvara hints at shifting geopolitics. Although the swayamvara rules were different those days, hence I state this idea with extreme caution. The attack of Kuru army (under Duryodhana) on Panchala as settlement of Drona's Gurudakshina pissed Drupad furthermore. The "understanding of Dharma" by Yudhishthira is seen for the first-time here. Kuru army led by Duryodhana is badly defeated by Panchal army. When it is Pandava's turn to settle the Dakshina, there is a beautiful passage of Yudhishthira where he justifies his decision of "Not fighting under Kuru Banner". I was impressed at the acumen of Politics and Justice by this young Prince. Pandavas manage to defeat Panchal's army just after it has won over Kuru army. This is another tactical brilliance on the part of Yudhishthira to instigate Duryodhana and allow him to take a first shot. Pandavas invade Panchala almost immediately after Duryodhana's defeat, and score an easy victory over Drupad, while arresting him and presenting him in front of their teacher. This invasion (under banner of Kurus by Duryodhan) perpetually pushes Panchala in Anti-Kuru stance. The obvious choice for the leadership of this "anti-Kuru" lobby is Magadh.

However,

Two young Vrishni brothers Sankarshana Balraam and Krishna, who happen to be nephews of Kamsa (Mathura's king) led a coup and assassinated the reigning king of Mathura. He sends the two wives of Kamsa (who happened to be daughters of Jarasandha of Magadh) back to Girivraja (modern Rajgir) and this created a vacuum in North-Central India. The proxy king Ugrasena who was established by Vrishni yadava brothers took a neutral stance (rather less pro-magadh stance) as opposed to the "satellite state of Magadh" which Mathura was under Kamsa. This gave an opportunity to Magadh to intercede in the politics of Saraswati basin and directly enter into competition with Kurus. Magadh was aware of the fall-out in Panchal-Kuru tango. According to Srimad Bhagvat, Jarasandha raided Mathura 17 times. Vrishni brothers and other Yadavas managed to fend off these raids. However, on 18th occassion, Magadh enticed a Mlechha king from west to invade Mathura from west, while Magadh invaded from east to finish off Yadava-Influence from Mathura. Mostly this was some Persian king who was "probably" in this game to earn a quick buck. I don't think it was realistic on part of Kaal-Yavan to think that he would be able to establish a stable polity in India with Kuru and Magadh around in neighbourhood.

The Vrishni brothers managed to trick Kaal-yavan and slyly assassinated him. Krishna is described to be the chief architect of this assassination for which he is popularly castigated as "Ranchhod das" (one who flees from raging battle). Vrishni brothers travel southwards while Magadh army pursues them. They travel through the realms of their Yadava Brethren which were spread all over Central India and Upper Deccan plateau. The Vrishni brothers manage to defeat and kill Jarasandha's ally "Shrugaal" of Kolhapur and enter the province of Gomantaka (Modern Goa and Konkan). While hiding in forests and hills of Sahyadri mountain ranges, Magadh army manages to trace them and lays siege to the hill-fort they are hiding. However, since they lack any siege weapons, Magadh army started advance towards citadel of hill-fort in order to capture OR kill the Vrishni brothers. The brothers managed to escape the siege somehow and started a forest fire, which engulfed the besieging Magadhan army and broke their formations. Jarasandha returns to Magadh after this fiasco. The Vrishni brothers meet Parashurama in Dakshinapatha forests and according to Harivamsha, it is here where Krishna receives "Sudarshan Chakra". All this part is missing in MBH, but present in Bhagvatam and Harivamsha.

Meanwhile, Magadh's strategy did not prove futile. While Jarasandha could not finish off the Vrishni brothers in his Deccan escapade, he managed to dislodge Yadavas from Mathura and forced them to migrate to the extreme periphery of India - Saurashtra and Dwarika situated at the mouth of Saraswati River basin. While otherwise, this would have been a prime location just like Sindh, but living at the mouth of a drying river isn't very wise thing, in long run. The clan of Vrishnis settle in Saurashtra in artificially created city of Dwarika, while maintaining a nominal presence in Mathura. The Shoorsena Yadavas of mathura thereafter dwindled both in numbers and significance. Perhaps, Jarasandha decided to let Shoorsena Yadavas die naturally instead of asking for curses from mango abduls living there and who were pissed off by constant raiding and warfare by Magadh. Yadavas seem to be spread across Central Indian region and Deccan plateau and western Ghats. I can't help comparing the expanse of Yadavas with expanse of Marathas. Various houses of Yadavas (like marathas) ruled western Maharashtra, Vidarbha and Madhya-Pradesh (and later Gujarat). While Magadh was friendly with all them, he was bitter enemy of Vrishni Yadavas of Mathura. After dislodging Vrishnis from Mathura, he let Shoorsena Yadavas be. I think Magadh did not want the powers of South-Central India to enter as participants in power-struggle of Indo-Gangetic plains. The Vrishnis of Mathura were precisely trying to do that.

One thing that we need to keep in mind, is that, in Indian system of polity, the aren't any "inviolable boundaries" of "nation-states". Although all these Mahajanapadas were individual and sovereign political units who were recognized by intellectuals, traders and other peers, there weren't anything like modern "Nation-states". Hence many times conquests in form of "ashwamedha Yagna" and "Raajsooya-Yagna" did not involve the practice of finishing off the defeated dynasty and annexation of the province which was won. This system was unknown to India until advent of Nanda-Dynasty of Magadh. Thereafter, this became a common practice. The system of polity seems to be governed by "DharmaShastras" and "Arthashastras" which are ubiquitous all over India, including in the non-aryan clans like Asuras and Nagas. The people talk to each other about "dharma" as if there was some common code of conduct and polity which was accepted by all the sovereigns of India. What that common code was, is not specified, and is not personally known to me. The so called "conquests" or "Dikvijayas" undertaken by various politicians of contemporary India was either for "recognition" and/or ally hunt and/or money and not usually for land. The defeated king swore allegiance to the victorious king and promised to arrive with his resources in the victor's hour of need.

Thus, we have rapidly changing environmental and geopolitical equations on the eve of Rajsooya yagna.


Partition of Kuru clan - The barren region which formed rapidly dessicating Yamuna-Saraswati basin was given to Pandavas, while Ganga basin was kept for Duryodhana. This is where Vrishnis enter the politics of North India, IMO. Krishna establishes very cordial relations with Pandavas, who just like him were thrown out of their secure power-base and were forced to establish a new power-centre in apparently resourceless land which offered dwindling prospects in long term. Furthermore, bulk of this land was forest land inhabited by Naga people.While decreasing rains were making bushfire increasingly frequent in the region, the monsoon rains used to arrive timely and prevent the fires from spreading. For bushfire to occur, the grassland must be sufficiently dessicated and high temperatures and wind-velocity. All this is seen Punjab (the salt-range of Khushab) and also in northern Rajasthan. However, just when conditions reached optimum, rains arrived, thereby making the bushfire impossible.

The Forest burns and so do people
Vrishni-Pandava alliance decided to take advantage of this phenomenon and clear off the forest of Khandava in order to create arable land and space for living and building cities. They "somehow" managed to divert the rains from that region and started a gigantic forest fire while encircling the forest region and killing off every Naga and Asura people dwelling in that forest. After a week of battle, the region was "cleansed" of Naga people and forest and was made fit for "civilization" and "urbanization". Few survivors managed to escape this carnage, under leadership of their king "Takshaka" who escaped to Upper Sindhu valley and founded the city of Takshshila (modern Islamabad). The Naga and Asura architects who surrendered helped Pandavas in their project of "Indraprastha (modern Delhi) construction". This shows higher skills of Nagas and Asuras in civil engineering. These contacts were also used by Vrishnis to develop their own city of Dwarika (the defenses of which were designed by Mayasura who was captured as PoW from Khandavaprastha).

The great game of competing political interests for supremacy of Sapta-Sindhu region

The axis of power from Dwarika to Indraprastha was forming as an "Anti-Kuru" lobby and alternative to Magadh Lobby. The "confused" Panchalas had by then decisively shifted in camp of Dwarika-Indraprastha axis permanently owing to marital relations between Pandavas and Draupadi. While Pandavas did not have any animosity towards Magadh, it was crucial for Vrishnis to settle the "problem of Magadh" once and for all. Magadh's sphere of influence had already reached Avanti (Ujjain) where the Yadava kings (Vinda and Anuvinda) were staunch allies of Jarasandha. Jarasandha was stealthily encircling Kurus, while they were busy infighting and partitioning their land. This ring of encirclement had potential of breaking off Dwarika from rest of India. Hence the urgency to finish off Magadha's influence was pressing as far as priorities of Vrishnis are concerned. Krishna had managed to establish marital relations with several yadava kings which were under Jarasandha's influence. He started with Rukmini (the princes of Vidarbha). He also married princess of Ujjain and few others. He also took wives from Vrishni clan as well to cement his position in clan and garner support from his clan members. Yet, the noose of Magadh was tightening around Kuru, Indraprastha and Dwarika.

While Pandavas were still part of Kuru dynasty, Duryodhana had given kingdom of Anga (northern Bengal) to Karna. While Pandavas were in their first exile (after Varnavat-Laakshagriha episode), there was one very important event which is usually downplayed. In Kalinga (Orissa), Karna defeated Jarasandha in duel. This had increased the prestige and influence as well as power-projection ability of Kurus in eastern India. Karna's devotion to Kurus is legendary. Karna's influence in Bengal and over Magadh directly corresponded to Kuru influence in Eastern India.

Thus, while Kurus were rather strong and playing their own moves to encircle Magadh, there was no such strategy in think-tank of Dwarika-Indraprastha axis (DI axis) which could tackle with these two great games. It is from here, that character of Krishna starts raising above rest of people, just like Michael Corleone in Godfather-1 (sorry for this metaphor, but Michael Corleone is the closest comparison of the master game that Krishna played). The scale and intricacy of Krishna's game is million times more than the one played by Michael in Godfather Saga. But it comes very close in principle. I would urge gentle readers to remember the strategy of Michael Corleone to kill off the heads of 5 mafia families in NY in one fell swoop and then subsequent moves to consolidate the space in the power-vacuum.

The Turning point

Krishna used his personal influence over Pandavas to make them understand that the interests of Dwarika and Indraprastha coincide. That, it was equally important for them to tackle the tightening noose of Magadh and that they had no option but to strike at place where Magadh expected least. Magadh was traditionally a autocratic polity. Absolute power was consolidated in the hands of Jarasandha, and his son was not as strong-willed as his father. Elimination of Jarasandha from political scene of India was "the key" for all the problems which DI-axis was facing OR was going to face, in absence of any leverage in "backyard" of Magadh like Kurus had in form of Karna.

The action of Krishna-Arjuna-Bheema trio is similar to escapade of Shivaji while his raid of "Lal Mahal" in Pune in the bedroom of Shaistekhan in dark night when he was least expecting. The act was more psychological operation than a military one. The gamble of challenging Jarasandha in duel paid off. Whilst Jarasandha was an extremely accomplished warrior, Bheema was younger and more agile. Furthermore, Karna had defeated him in duel few years ago. While Karna pardoned Jarasandha, Krishna had no intention of doing so. He proposed duel-until-death, which was accepted by Jarasandha and by stroke of luck in favour of DI-Axis, the result of this duel came in favour of DI-axis and in one stroke, the entire strategy of Magadha fell to shambles. Immediately after this victory, Krishna raided regions as distant as Kaamroopa (Assam) and defeated Narakasura, established his son Bhagadatta on throne. Defeated king of Pundra (central Bengal) Paundrak Vaasudeva and killed him in battle. Jarasandha's son Sahadeva was established on throne of Magadh and his sister was married off to one of the Pandavas (I think Nakula).

Aftermaths - Spoils of victory

While Harivamsha says that Eastern conquest of Krishna was while Jarasandha was alive, I think this does not make sense given the entire political setup which I have described above. As far as my understanding of Krishna as a politician goes, he would't have ventured there while Jarasandha was still alive. It was simply too risky. But, these are my views, hence take them for what they are worth.

Coming back, Krishna coaxed Pandavas to go for similar "Dikvijaya" and perform Raajsooya Yagna. There is something about Raajsooya Yagna that even Sri-Raam dared not to do it. Raam preferred Ashwamedha instead. What made Yudhishthira so confident to perform this Yagna is mystery. Four Pandavas ventured in four directions and came back victorious and wealthy. The Indraprastha, Dwarika and the DI axis was recognized by India as the legitimate power-centres and defacto leaders of "anti-Kuru" lobby. DI-axis won many friends (those kings imprisoned by Jarasandha were released by Krishna and they instantly became allies of DI-axis. The Eastern India was secured by raids of Krishna and Bhima. Except solitary "Anga", rest of the east of consolidated and befriended by and large.

In Raajsooya sacrifice, the last remaining commander of Jarasandha, Shishupaal, was finished off by Krishna, thus completing the victory of DI-Axis. Now, DI-Axis had completely encircled the Kuru dynasty. Had consolidated vast stretch of India, which Kurus and Magadh were vying for. Won friends in most unlikely of places. The victory of DI-Axis was complete.

All stories should end here. Since the story did not end here, that separates Mahabharat from rest of tales.

There are plenty of things to learn from this "Itihaasa" of India. Those with sufficient political acumen will understand the modern relevance of this story.

Shubham astu...

[negi]

Jeerhard as per this map my ancestors might have been either Yaksha/Kinnara/Deva/Asura/Rakshasa

[niran]

Jeerhard as per this map my ancestors might have been either Yaksha/Kinnara/Deva/Ausra/Rakshasa

this is an incorrect map methonk, the "Kamboj Desiya" were supposed to be 2 Dynasties,
both of them took part in the epic battle, One is supposed to be from around Northen coastal regions of present day Vietnam, the other line were from inner Vietnam, post battle
the remainants were supposed to have established modern day Kambodia or Kampoocha or
Cambodia, with their capital city in Angkor.

[Atri]

Jeerhard as per this map my ancestors might have been either Yaksha/Kinnara/Deva/Asura/Rakshasa

Take only the positions of yellow kingdoms as precise, Negi ji. The names in Pink and Orange are highly uncertain. All that we know is, orange kingdoms were purely foreign origin.

I had proposed to build a map of Northwestern conquest of Vikramaditya based on descriptions in Raghuvamsha. But I lack the skill and that offer is still valid. I can provide the data and a new corrected map can be produced. I need expertise of someone who knows cartography.

[brihaspati]

Atri ji,
wonderful representation. Two points to chew on :

The first one is historical/mythical: yes the DI axis won, but could not hold on to power over the long run. Prabhaasa parva itself describes the liquidation of Yadava power in the "west", and we know that the Shalvas and the regime based in Kashi ultimately absorbed the Kurus. Magadha seems to have revived well!

Second the modern one : We saw the modern version of DI at work in the lead up to the Partition.

Maybe the destruction of "Magadha" is the wrong way to go - both sides need to coopt each other. Each time DI appears to create a weakening of the north-west when it destroys the "strategic depth" of the east.

[Atri]

Atri ji,
wonderful representation. Two points to chew on :

The first one is historical/mythical: yes the DI axis won, but could not hold on to power over the long run. Prabhaasa parva itself describes the liquidation of Yadava power in the "west", and we know that the Shalvas and the regime based in Kashi ultimately absorbed the Kurus. Magadha seems to have revived well!

Second the modern one : We saw the modern version of DI at work in the lead up to the Partition.

Maybe the destruction of "Magadha" is the wrong way to go - both sides need to coopt each other. Each time DI appears to create a weakening of the north-west when it destroys the "strategic depth" of the east.

Yes, this is what MBH hints at.

Krishna realized this folly and facilitated destruction of DI axis from Dwarika end. The Vrishnis were liquidated and Dwarika annihilated. But this is 36 years after the great war. I had to limit myself to the Pre-Exile phase of Pandavas. Krishna realized that, Vrishnis were incapable of providing the support to Dharma. They had to go, their part in the play was over.

In the above context, The "Great War" was yet to happen.. The prime importance is "establishment of Dharma (Justice)" at all costs.. The Magadh and the DI axis play their role in this. After establishment of Dharma, the tactical tool which facilitated the destabilization of society needs to be liquidated, since society and polity needs to return to low energy ground state.. Magadha remained aloof from all the carnage which subsequently followed in DI axis. Hence the revival. Punjab has not revived ever since great war. Except for brief period of Ranjit Singh ji, Punjab has lost this forever. Such is power of disappearance of Saraswati.

The problem of "Kaamroopa" and "Anga" in east also needs to be solved. As Magadh fell, DI swiftly moved in and consolidated Bengal and Assam. All this leverage was lost by DI when pandavas went to exile. All these kings from Eastern India who were won over by Pandavas, switched sides again and were befriended by Duryodhana in those 13 years of DI-absence in NI polity. All those kings including Magadh, Bengal and Assam fought against DI axis in "great war".

[putnanja]

The problem of "Kaamroopa" and "Anga" in east also needs to be solved. As Magadh fell, DI swiftly moved in and consolidated Bengal and Assam. All this leverage was lost by DI when pandavas went to exile. All these kings from Eastern India who were won over by Pandavas, switched sides again and were befriended by Duryodhana in those 13 years of DI-absence in NI polity. All those kings including Magadh, Bengal and Assam fought against DI axis in "great war".

I believe sahadeva, the son of Jarasandha, fought on the side of Pandavas and died in the battelfield.

Duryodhana appears to not have had a strategic plan, and was always thinking tactically. This might have been his downfall.

[RamaY]

FWIW.

Found this about Dharmaraja's Rajasuya in Telugu Mahabharata (not the original Vyasa Bharata).

Arjuna went North. He defeated Pulinda king, Prativindhya, Bhagadata, Senabindu, Vishwagaswa, Parvateyas (note: Parvatakas in Chanakya's time?), Barbaras, Parasikas, Turkas, Paundras, Kashmira, Trigarta, Lohita, Sudhanva, Gandhara, Kambhoja, Simhapura, Nishadas. Then he defeated Kuru kingdoms.

Bhima went East. He defeated Dasarna king Sudhanva, Asvaradha king Rochamana, Chedi king Sisupala, Pulinda, Kosala, Ayodhya, Kasi, Matsya, Malava, Karnata, Dakshina Mallas. Bhima also defeated Chandrasena, and Paundrakavasudeva.

Sahadeva went South. He defeated Mitra, Surasena, Datta, Yavanas, Gosrunga mountain tribes, and Jambhakas. He got the respect of Kuntibhoja (grand father) as the consent for Rajasuya. Sahadeva also defeated Mahismati city-state. Then he defeated Rukmi, Bhishmaka, Surpaka, Anekapada, Kakamukha, Karnapravaraka, Rakshasa tribes. Then he continued his victory-spree to Pandya, Kerala, Kalinga, Dravida, Yavana (Who could this be???), kara, hataka (form of Karnataka?) kingdoms. Then he sent a message to Vibhishana, who sent gold and gems as gifts.

Nakula went West. He defeated sudra kings of Mahitaka kingdom (so much for caste system). Then he moved on to Maru, Malava, Barbara, Karnata, Hataka, Pushkara kings. Then he defeated forest dwelving Abhiras, Village/town-states of Sarasvati/Sindhu river systems, mountain tribes of Panchajana, Simhya, Damarapatana and Yadu mountains. Then he defeated the island nations of Barbara and Kiratas.

[ramana]

Atriji. Thanks for indulging me. Before setting the four Pandavas on dikvijaya, Krishna gives a masterful exposition of the political situation prevalent. You have summed it up well.

Also wasn't Bindusara of Magadh conquest of Vidarba started the historical period of India.
And please put this in a blog for others to learn too.

[Atri]

The problem of "Kaamroopa" and "Anga" in east also needs to be solved. As Magadh fell, DI swiftly moved in and consolidated Bengal and Assam. All this leverage was lost by DI when pandavas went to exile. All these kings from Eastern India who were won over by Pandavas, switched sides again and were befriended by Duryodhana in those 13 years of DI-absence in NI polity. All those kings including Magadh, Bengal and Assam fought against DI axis in "great war".

I believe sahadeva, the son of Jarasandha, fought on the side of Pandavas and died in the battelfield.

Duryodhana appears to not have had a strategic plan, and was always thinking tactically. This might have been his downfall.

True. Sahadeva was on Pandava side, Kaamroop on Kuru side. But Magadh was fractured after jarasandha. many armies of Magadh fought from Kaurava side too. By the time of great war, I think Sahadeva was no longer the sole king of Magadha. It was Jayatsena who was son of Jarasandha and was killed by Abhimanyu in Chakravyuha. Sahadeva, son of Jarasandha and also a king of Magadh fought on Pandava side. I guess the kingdom fractured after Jarasandha's death.

The observations about Duryodhana are apt. Whilst the reasons for why people behaved the way they behaved is quite well known, this attempt was to look it strictly from political point of view.

[Murugan]

X posted from deracination thread

Nirvanashtakam

[ramana]

FWIW.

Found this about Dharmaraja's Rajasuya in Telugu Mahabharata (not the original Vyasa Bharata).

Arjuna went North. He defeated Pulinda king, Prativindhya, Bhagadata, Senabindu, Vishwagaswa, Parvateyas (note: Parvatakas in Chanakya's time?), Barbaras, Parasikas, Turkas, Paundras, Kashmira, Trigarta, Lohita, Sudhanva, Gandhara, Kambhoja, Simhapura, Nishadas. Then he defeated Kuru kingdoms.

Bhima went East. He defeated Dasarna king Sudhanva, Asvaradha king Rochamana, Chedi king Sisupala, Pulinda, Kosala, Ayodhya, Kasi, Matsya, Malava, Karnata, Dakshina Mallas. Bhima also defeated Chandrasena, and Paundrakavasudeva.

Sahadeva went South. He defeated Mitra, Surasena, Datta, Yavanas, Gosrunga mountain tribes, and Jambhakas. He got the respect of Kuntibhoja (grand father) as the consent for Rajasuya. Sahadeva also defeated Mahismati city-state. Then he defeated Rukmi, Bhishmaka, Surpaka, Anekapada, Kakamukha, Karnapravaraka, Rakshasa tribes. Then he continued his victory-spree to Pandya, Kerala, Kalinga, Dravida, Yavana (Who could this be???), kara, hataka (form of Karnataka?) kingdoms. Then he sent a message to Vibhishana, who sent gold and gems as gifts.

Nakula went West. He defeated sudra kings of Mahitaka kingdom (so much for caste system). Then he moved on to Maru, Malava, Barbara, Karnata, Hataka, Pushkara kings. Then he defeated forest dwelving Abhiras, Village/town-states of Sarasvati/Sindhu river systems, mountain tribes of Panchajana, Simhya, Damarapatana and Yadu mountains. Then he defeated the island nations of Barbara and Kiratas.

Of these kingdoms, who fought on the Pandava side and the Kaurava side?

[ramana]

Bji and Atriji, I find the role of Magadh region very interesting. It seems it always is the center for poltical consolidation through out Indian hisotry. They might not have the finesse of the Ganga-Jamuna region but do have the raw political power.
We have the Jarasandha's example. Then as the Mahajanpada periodwas drawing to a close we see Magadh(Bindusara) starting the imperial drive which finally culiminated in Ashoka's empire.

Later we see the Guptas rise to imperium based on the strength of the Liccahvi clan.


Evenin modern time its the Purabias of the East India Company Army that led the 1857 war of Indian Indiependence.

And in 1916 (?) its the farmers of Champaran who meet MK Gandhi and entice him on his path to Indian freedom.

Amazing or what?

[ramana]

From India-Forum


LINK

Some lost styles or schools of Indian architecture. This is based upon treatises like the SamarAngana SUtradhAra, AparAjitaprccha, Shilparatna, etc.

Indian architecture involves VAstu (architecture), Shilpa (sculpture and Chitra (painting). The Sthapati was not only an architect-mason, but also an engineer and townplanner. Around him were several guilds or Shrenis of other Sthapatis, SUtragrAhins, TakSHakas and Vardhakins.

VAstushAstra is more than only temple architecture. It involves:
1. city, town, village and fort architecture (suburbs were called ShAkhA-nagara, dealing with metropoli)
2. civil and public art and architecture (Veshma and SabhA)
3. palace art and architecture (RAjaveshma: rich and with royals had their NivAsa = residence and VilAsa = pleasure mansions)
4. temple art and architecture (PrAsAda)
And each had its distinct and overlapping and also regional styles. Where are those mansions, not only the varied temples, but also the palatial ones? How come that everything of the middle ages and later is Muslim or branded as such?

According to the VAstushAstras till around the rule of the Delhi Sultans, there were many schools and regional styles of architecture attached to different topics.

In temple architecture, we learn from the standard works that we have principally a Nagara, Dravida and a mixed style, called Vesara. But there were many more:
1. DrAviDa (Deccan and S.India)
2. Latina (or LATa)
3. VAvAta (or VArATa, Berar)
4. SAndhAra
5. BhUmija (BhUmihAra, Purab)
6. Mishra (mixed)
7. ValabhI (Gujarat)
8. Napumsaka
9. SimhAvalokana
10. DAruja
11. NAgara (N.Indian)
12. There is also a VairATa style (Alwar) of temple construction.
13. Besides some variants of specific VimAna schools

The principle styles of Palace architecture:
1. PAncAlI (Antarvedi area of Ganga-Yamuna doab)
2. MAgadhI (Bihar)
3. VAngI (Bengal)
4. KAlingI(Orissa)
5. ShaurasenI (areas of old Hindi, old Rajasthani, old Gujarati and Old Panjabi/Haryanvi)
6. DrAviDI (Deccan and south).
The word ShaurasenI especially here denotes that we are in an intermediate stage, from the older Apabhramshas period (second half 1st millennium C.E.) evolving in the middle Dingala periode (roughly till 12th-13th century) already gives regional variants evolving in initiatial stages of Old Panjabi, Old Hindi (Braja BhASHa), Old Rajasthani and old Gujarati. The classical Pingala period, roughly after this period, leads to the mature stages of the language of SuradAsa, TulasIdAsa etc.
The styles above give ample evidence of lost or ignored palace construction styles which must be looked for in the later invented styles of Pathan and Mughal architecture. Pathans (Fergusson actually takes up here the Delhi Sultans and their off shoots in the east, west and south) were conquerors, they lacked Sthapatis and chief masons, and with every kind of rebellious actions within their realms, there was hardly enough time for them consolidate their power outside Delhi and a thin surrounding area and thus to have stability and peace in governing the raided provinces.

Both temples and palaces (and mansions of wealthy people, merchants and nobility) could have overlapping styles. The PanchAyatana construction can be seen in Khajurahu, the palatial ones are Humayun's rauza and the Taj Mahal.
Mansions can have (n)one to many domes or Chhatris. In that case we have Ekaratna, Triratna and Pancaratna. Pancaratna was already recognized by Babur as a Hindustani style.

With reference to the dome styles, we have the following different styles:
1. Kaurava (Haryana)
2. PancAla (central doab)
3. Vaideha (N.Bihar)
3. MAgadha (S.Bihar),
4. Kaushala (E.UP)
5. KAlinga (Orissa)
6. KAshya (Banaras)
7. VArATa (Berar)
8. Kaulaka (?),
9. ShaNDila (close to Kannauj?)
10. Shaurasena (Rajasthan-Gujarat-Mathura-Agra)
11. GAndhAra NW)
12. Avantika (Malwa)
13. KAshmIra
14. GAngeya (Bengal?).
The domes, also called StUpI and smaller dommes are called stUpikA (derived from the stupa shape: semicircular), Other words for a dome are ShikhA and ANDa, it is especially the last which is a word for a bulbous shape.

A stupika is a small votive stupa. It is often accompanied by small votive tablets with Buddhist formulae, or small Buddhist images.[1] The stupika can also be the topmost part of a building, particularly a Hindu temple.^ Miksic, John N. (2003). Earthenware in Southeast Asia. NUS Press. pp. 289. ISBN 9789971692711. http://books.google....GupAC&pg=PT289. Retrieved 2009-08-16.
^ Snodgrass, Adrian (1985). The Symbolism of the Stupa. SEAP Publications. pp. 263. ISBN 9780877277002. http://books.google....X8ugC&pg=PA263. Retrieved 2009-08-16.

aNDakaM sArddha-bhAgena candrikArddha-padA smrtA |
AkAshalingaMkurvita dvi-padaM sumanoharaM || SamarAngNna-SUtradhAra 57-78The "Ākāśaliṅga" Finial M. A. Dhaky
Artibus Asiae, Vol. 36, No. 4 (1974), pp. 307-315
As the main element the aNDaka (Amalaka or myrobalan), a bulbous cogged wheel shape.
CandrikA = padmapatrI or lotuscap

Bulbous variety or onionshaped variant of Amalaka/stupI is found in the TripuruShaprAsAda (representing the TrimUrti) the Lara Djanggarang complex in Prambanan, Java in Indonesia of Hindu temples (ca. mid 9th century)
Actually and Amalaka=Indian gooseberryt, emblic myrobalan has a bulbous shape. In the ancient texts it is called ANDa, which also has a bulbous shape.

MaNDapas were of different shapes, square(caturashra), round (vrttanta), but also octagonal (ashtashra), etc. The same shapes for supporting pillars, pillars/towers in walls (bhitt-stambhas) and monolithic pillars/towers (dhvajastambhas and mAnastambhas, DIpa- or dIpamAnastambhas).
Temples did have a monolithic tower/pillar, but the Digambaras already had their Samava-Sharanas with a Manastambha at each direction, giving four monolithic towers or pillars in front of the sacred Hall. Bauddha temples, especially in Gandhara before the Guptas may have had 4 monolithic towers topped with lions surrounding the Hall too, but then positioned like the Taj Mahal towers. At least their sculpture does show this in two miniature models. See: Gandhara, 2nd century CE, has 4 lion-crowned Stambhas surrounding the Stupa on a platform. http://upload.wikime...a2ndCentury.jpg
An stylistical miniature example: Model of a stupa (Buddhist shrine), ca. 4th century, Pakistan, ancient region of Gandhara, Bronze; H. 22 3/4 in. (57.8 cm), W. 7 1/2 in. (19.1 cm). Gift of Mr. and Mrs. Donald J. Bruckmann, 1985 (1985.387ab) Source of description: Model of a stupa (Buddhist shrine) [Pakistan, ancient region of Gandhara] (1985.387ab) | Heilbrunn Timeline of Art History | The Metropolitan Museum of Art

Monolithic or Towers were a special feature of Bauddha, Jaina (especially the Manastambhas), Shaiva and Vaishnava temples: KIrtistambhas, Dhvajastambhas, DIpastambhas etc.
Minarets of Muslims have a very vague history. Actually Muslims made a difference bewteen a Manar = square Light House (kind of DIpastambha) and a place for the Muezzin, which could be from any high place, orginally from the roof of buildings. Round or Cylindrical towers were later applied from (east)Iran. Even Fergusson, but also Diez and many other scholars consider the round towers as adopted from Bauddha and Hindu from east-Iranian (especially Afghanistan) and Central-Asia.
A feature of a building containing 4 towers is actually copied by Timur from Delhi. He commissioned a mosque to be built in Samarkand based upon the one in Delhi. As he obviously lacked a Sthapati and chief masons within his groups of captured Indian artisans, and as the chief mason was a Muslim from outside India, his project produced a sorry result (compared to master pieces in India).
ShAstras like the MAnaSara clearly describe mansions with surrounding KarNa-harmyas or corner houselike towers. These towers in the corners are also called karNa-CUlikAs in the MAnaSara. These can be attached to the main mansion (temple or palace), but also detached, both giving a PancAyatana concept if it is a houselike tower. (Otherwise detached ones could technically be called KarNa-stambhas and can be the Manastambhas or KIrtistambhas or DIpastambhas).

Material used, could be wood, bricks and stones. Marble (sphatika = originally crystall quartz, but Monier-Williams gives prastaraa nd different kinds of prastara, pASHANa, shilA, upala for marble) was also known, at least the stonecutters and mines from Gujarat and Rajasthan were very famous. For construction two techniques were also used, which were Sudhashila (sudha = plaster) and Vajralepa (adamantine glue coating). When both were combined it was also called Vajralepa.
White radiance of temples through plaster was called SAttvika, red radiance was RAjasika and black was TAmasika. There was a white temple dedicated to Surya, according to the Mandasor inscription of 473 C.E. with the phrase "the temple resembling a mountain shines white", in line 16. (Indian Antiquary, vol. xv, p. 196)
The LakSHmaNa temple in Khajurahu was also white plastered 'like the peaks of the mountains of snow'. (inscription of 1011 C.E.)

The Garbhamana system of measuring divides the the sacred plot in nine divisions, called ASHTApAda or PAdASHTa. This is the real origin at least from Gupta times of the much later word Hasht Bihisht (New Persian, post-Sasanian) used by modern writers for this concept in architecture, and wrongly ascribed by these to Persians and as a concept used by Mughals, but this last word can be found nowhere in literature before Amir Khushro of India. And that too in a non-architecture use (denoting eight heavens). Ashtapada in Garbhamana method denotes 8 Padas or squares surrounding a central one. Every Pada has its own Vasu and VAstupuruSHa. Every 8 major PAda, further divided, gives 32 minor PAdas, represented by 32 DevatAs; the central 9th major Pada, the Brahmasthana is represented by the 33th Devata.
One MaNDapa using nine courts can be a the Ranga Mandapa or Ranga Mahal. Perhaps the ancient Palace of Vasantasena as described in the Mrcchakatikam with 8 great courts and a garden is also arranged as a grand ASHTapAda. But, I am not sure about this. Even though it is described in an ancient Sanskrit play, it must be based upon a real grand mansion complex of a wealthy person in Ujjain. An example of the old Malwa school of architecture.

Many types of laid-out gardens attached to mansions are described, collectively called KAnana. Famous are the Ujjayini gardens of the ancient Malwa school. Residential buildings or NivAsa bhavanas and pleasure pavilions or VilAsa bhavanas were placed in different types of KAnanas, with rows of different kinds of trees.
Many types of Yantras are described, especially the ones supplying waters being used for the gardens, fountains, etc.

City planning included different shapes, like square (caturashra), rectangular (Ayatana) like the Taj Mahal, round (vrttAnta), semicircular or bow-shaped (KArmuka, like an Arddha-Chandra) like the Agra Red Fort and Salimgarh above the Delhi Red Fort, etc.
According to one authority, a metropolis (Nagara) could have a capital city (RAjadhAnI), with a secondary city (PaTTana, actually predominantly a merchant's city) attached to it, all with their suburbas (ShAkha-Nagaras), including quarters for other merchants/traders, artisans, soldiers, etc.
As Agra seems to have another city on the eastern bank (based on the 16th century description of Pelsaert), jointly forming an ancient metropolis with the city on the western bank, it follows the description of the DroNa type of city of the ShAstras.

In short, Indian Vastu architecture is grossly misunderstood and described from a limited angle. And its value, coupled to indigenous and Rajput architecture and creativity before and during the Sultanate and Mughal period, is enormously underestimated, by giving its credits to the newly created and non-existent Pathan and Saracenic architecture (inventions of James Fergusson, a merchant having taken up a study on architecture) and overestimated Timurid and Mughal architecture, even though they have their own beauty. But if claims or credits for creation can discredited through primary sources, what then is Mughal architecture? The real credit in any way should be given rightly to Indian architects, masons, sculptors, carpenters, common labourers and their shastras and creative minds.

[brihaspati]

ramana ji,
The Magadha region could have been the generator of "northern civilizations". I will briefly touch on the logic as a full exposition requires perhaps a team effort.

I first became aware of the legend of the "Shakol dwipa" through family tradition. Later on further search, I saw that some weatern Rajput kulajis also indicate origins in the east from this legendary "island" which was supposed to have been swallowed up by the sea, and which was once washed by the Ganges.

If we look at the early narratives we find that in those stories where Ganges replaces Saraswati is the primary river, there are early repeated stories of Ganges drying up - and then being absorbed by divine beings or rishis, and then released or coaxed to flow again. We hear in the same stories of again divine beings drinking up the sea, etc.

All this points to perhaps a real period of Indian civilizational history, when the Ganges dried up or reduced in flow - we can see that Indians of the lower Gangetic valley already had a functional state complete with "kings" or some mechanism for running a state power and intellectuals or rishis to guide them who also have sufficient technological prowess or knowledge. Geologically the closest date of Ganga severly drying up or the "sea drunk up" (meaning drastic fall in sea-levels) cannot be later than the post glacial melt 1000 year long younger Dryas, and perhaps more appropriately to the most intense glacial aridity period before 12,000 YBP.

We know from ocean core records that the Indian ocean had less fresh water discharge from the Indian drainage patterns around this period, and in this backdrop all the observations around the dynasty of king Sagar makes sense. Ganges being held in the locks of Shiva can be interpreted as glacial locak up in ice dams or otherwise of the flow of Ganges. The sea being "drunk" could have been attributed to the legendary rishis who lived in the southern delta and around whom the sea must have retreated drmataically as the ice age had intensified. The knowledge of this culture in facilitating irrigation channels is perhaps hidden behind the legend of Bhagirath. It is also more likely that the sea, and the lower delta which would have collected more waters than Ganges alone because it would also drain other rivers from the eastern Himalayas - would provide far greater means of livelihood and sustan a significant population compared to the drier upper Gangetic Valley.

We are also told of migration of the descendants of Sagar upwards along the valley. This probably took place after rains increased in the post 10,000 YBP phase as more and more of the upper valley became economically sustaining.

I think this tendency in the eastern delta-Mahadeo-hills junction highlands of Santhal Parganas, south Bihar, Birbhum, (and northern Orissa which probably had an early human civilization that grew out of increaisng rains and was perhaps also the ancient corridor through which the Jaina influence once captured the Barddhamana district of WB) was due to a good staging post to dominate lower Gangetic valley. It strategically lies in the bend of the Ganges and the Gangetic Valley arch passing from north Bihar through the Mudgagiri pass (Momghyr or Munger) to turn out into Pundra and radha. Note that the earliest location of the capital of Magadha is still sort of un-located. There has been a constant shift of capital in the better known historical period from the highlands in the east to the river and plains in the west - Giribraja (probably Giridih but need not be Giridih only) to Rajagriha to Pataligrama and Pataliputra.

They were also adept at ironworking and it is suggested that one of the reasons for Bimbisara's imperialist expansion wa sto seize the river port of Champa through which the setthis could then export iron tools and artefacts by ships out into the Bay of Bengal.

Such survival against glacial climatic aridity, knowledge of agriculture and irrigation, sea-coastal trade, ironworking, extensive trade networks under state protection, must have generated the need for codification of laws and systematization of dialects and languages. . It would be the extension of this lower Gangetic valley culture up into the northern plains a sthey became more life sustaining in terms of agriculture (some kind of managed envrionment for proiduction and not necessarily the modern concept of agri) - that would spread culture, language, technology, agriculture around.

The highland I mentioned are strategically located to use a wide hinterland for survival in hard times and expand when productivity increases. It sits on a defensible base that sort of can control the flow of trade and people through the valley to the east and south to the Bay. It can also support a high concentration of people and link to IOR flows. This has made it strategically self-sufficient in periods of plenty. Protected in the north from major invasions, and the difficult terrain to the south-west and west - for most parts of history and military technology it must have provided a good political base.

I gues sthis tradition

[naren]

Once a lady who was a guest at my place had brought a shakti idol without letting me know. I was single at the time abroad, and went to sleep as usual. At night in bed I came to "know" the deity had not been given "fruit" and that "she" was furious. So the next morning I said to my guest that she should go out and get some fresh fruit and give it to her idol. She was shell-shocked, and called back her parents in desh who told her that the deity's "birthday" [installation day] was the very day and fruits had to be given. My guest apologized profoundly and said she did not tell me because she knew me as a fierce agnostic and militant atheist. I guess all this added to the "aura" of the deity as a really active and alive one. I did not tell her of the period in my life when I had done some of the stuff.

Interesting. There's a character in Tibetan Buddhism who would carry a diety in his pocket. That diety would converse with him often. Fun to have a talking idol in your pocket Little bit creepy too.

Tsongkhapa

Tsongkhapa often had visions of meditational deities and especially of Manjushri, with whom he would communicate directly to clarify difficult points of the scriptures.

Manjushri

Je Tsongkhapa, who founded the Gelug sect of Tibetan Buddhism, is said to have received his teachings from visions of Mañjuśrī.

[Pulikeshi]

Atri,

Thanks for that wonderful writeup.

What is the natural axis based on puranic and other Ithihaas?
Has D-I every been sustainable? If not, I am not sure why Krishna tried that...
More thoughts on this front are welcome.

[putnanja]

Has D-I every been sustainable? If not, I am not sure why Krishna tried that...
More thoughts on this front are welcome.

I don't think Krishna thought Yudhishtira would go in for the game of dice the second time too. That started the unraveling of Kuru power. After the pandavas went to the forests after losing the game of dice, Krishna meets them and says that if he was there, he would have prevented the game from taking place. Krishna in fact tells Yudhishtira that what he had done was plain wrong.

Yudhishtira didn't have the strategic thinking that Arjuna and Bheema did. Krishna directed the energy of Pandavas in establishing an order that he wanted. Yudhishtira was more concerned with dharmic rule. Arjuna and Bhima were the looking after the various threats. I guess it was more like MMS ruling India with SG and other leaders looking after politics, and the excellent relations between Krishna and Yudhishtira didn't create any mutual suspicion between them. Unfotunately, Yudhishtira foolishly threw it away. Duryodhana was more tactical than strategic, cutting short sighted deals to hold on to the kingdom, and trying to prevent other kings from joining the Pandavas in a war he definitely expected.

After the war, Krishna realized that most of the kingdoms were bankrupt, including the kurus for waging such a huge battle. The Pandavas too were probably too old and didn't have the enthusiasm they had when they were young. And the huge war had distorted the social order, with lots of young men killed. The society had to be rebuilt.

That may have probably weakened the D-I axis naturally, and slowly allowed regional satraps to become more powerful.

[brihaspati]

Interesting. There's a character in Tibetan Buddhism who would carry a diety in his pocket. That diety would converse with him often. Fun to have a talking idol in your pocket Little bit creepy too.

Talking was not actual. It was more a telepathic communication. I actually got quite angry and even in my semi-sleep, I threatened to chase "her" out - that she dares to "disturb" me and tries to scare me in a vision. Then the face changes and sort of ashamed and says that she is hungry and that no one has given her fruit. She was evening blue with a tinge of flame.

I practiced certain things in the forest near my grandparents place, and then of course saw different forms of "her". I did not use any of the stuff of the stories, such as skulls, alcohol or women. Just a fire and intense concentration. Ultimately it began to frequentlly take the form of a rather attractive woman who always appeared with her head slightly bent down and eyes not making contact, as if in shame. She would have her head partially covered but the body outline would be clearly visible through the wrapped garment. It would also give the impression of a fire burning within a bronze shell of her body. The kulaguru visiting at this time sensed the presence and said that I should not continue, as "she" was coming as "pryia" and the 7 forms in this category were almost inevitably dangerous for a 16 year old. I was also asked not to be in the house when they wanted to give offerings to "ancestors", as he said I was a repellant and scarer of spirits - (an obstacle apparently in that line of spiritual quest). The blue form has visited me from time to time but stopped after a certain date which is significant for me personally.

I have interacted with some from the Tibetan schools of Tantra. The texts are interesting but I cannot read them directly. From what i have learnt from them by probing appears to confirm what I have experienced. I will have to say, that I keep an open mind on this - neither believing nor rejecting. The texts and the practitioners should be explored with both logic and intuition (each keeping a check on the other) and there is a lot to learn and filter. I will perhaps need several lifetimes to do this!