Su-30: News and Discussion

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 23 Jul 2010 14:08

It doesn't make any sense at all to induct a new type of Su-30 at all. All the air-qualification, training, tactics, ground-crew qualification, maintenance will be need to re-written, re-qualified for this new type. Every new sub version alone is a headache enough. Hopefully we just add what we have and not bother with a new sub-type. The payoff just isn't there. We should just continue the extra run at home when we reach the 240 or 270 or whatever number we are at with HAL.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jul 2010 14:48

The Russkies are no longer the USSR where every statement came from the Politburo. Nowadays company CEOs make off the cuff remarks to improve their sales and should not be taken seriously. There will be no Su 35 for the IAF withot a 20 year, very public evaluation.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 23 Jul 2010 15:08

naird, you assume that the a/c will operate in isolation. more likely it will be a 3D multi-asset complex simultaneous chess game with top cover, deep strike, medium strike, awacs, tanker and air intercept operation. its all about the C4ISTAR (pick your fav acronym) capability and not the individual platform anymore. granted we are not at unkil levels at the game, but we have made a lot of progress. in that scenario, its not a given that more A2G is the right answer. in the chinese scenario (which must predominate our thinking) A2A is far more relevant

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 23 Jul 2010 15:32

How many active MKI's do we have in our arsenal now? I constantly come across conflicting numbers..from 108,124 to 140.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 23 Jul 2010 19:11

Ambar wrote:How many active MKI's do we have in our arsenal now? I constantly come across conflicting numbers..from 108,124 to 140.

Around 123-125 or so. There was an article not so long ago that said that HAL has built 75 MKIs and delivered them to IAF till now..add the 50 they bought directly from Russia and you have 125, minus 2 that crashed.

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 25 Jul 2010 02:32

naird wrote:^^ I strongly feel that we should buy more MRCA's of the shelf instead of Su 35's. We need a good amount LO platform which will be the first one's to be used in case of WAR.

A question -- Any MRCA contender which can match the specs offered by IBRIS ?

The problem, Nair bhai, is that none of the MMRCA contenders are LO/VLO platforms though I must agree all of them have better RCS than MKI!

IRBIS-E is a PESA RADAR with peak power output of 20 KW! At present, S.Hornet has the better RADAR (though Smaller), AN/APG-79 also believed to be 20 KW peak power; but as you know it is AESA! If put a a RADAR of the same quality as APG-79 but of IRBIS-E size it would be 35-40 KW and hence the most powerful fighter borne RADAR on the planet!

Also Raytheon is building "APG-79 Advanced Capability" an upgraded version for USN and MMRCA!

New airframe == new aircraft.

No one is going to take an empty shell and put everything from old aircraft into an new one. If it is a new airframe, then it will be a new aircraft, and will no longer be called a SU-30MKI but a totally new plane.

I would n't be surprised if they go in su-30s and come out su-35 MKIs!

I have a feeling the additional 42 Su-30s we're supposed to have signed are in fact Su-35s. DDM must have reported it as Su-30MKI

I am inclined to agree!

naird · Post by **naird** » 25 Jul 2010 03:14

Kanan wrote:
The problem, Nair bhai, is that none of the MMRCA contenders are LO/VLO platforms though I must agree all of them have better RCS than MKI!

EF and Rafale ...is pretty small in terms of RCS-- its said , i dont have the official figures. Also as per the latest presentation from Boeing frontal RCS of SH will also be improved.

I was talking about these platforms -- more MKI or 35 is simply not the solution. My two cents.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 25 Jul 2010 05:33

Deliveries of First Sets of Air Frame Structures for Sukhoi 30 MKI commence from Dynamatic® Facility in Nasik

Deliveries of the first sets of Air Frame Structures for India’s largest defence programme, the Sukhoi-30 MKI Fighter Bomber, have commenced from the new Dynamatic® facility in Nasik.

A rare and exemplary instance of Public Private Partnership, Dynamatic® recently commenced the transfer of assembly work of Air Frame Structures for the Sukhoi-30 MKI Fighter Bomber from its production facilities in Bangalore to a new facility provided by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited at Nasik.

Dynamatic Aerospace® is HAL’s largest developmental partner on the Sukhoi 30 MKI programme and builds major Air Frame Structures for the Fighter Bomber including Canards, Ventral Fins, Horizontal Stabilizers, Slats, Vertical Fins and Air Brake. The assembly transfer, which is expected to be complete by August 2010, will enable Dynamatic® to offer greater production support to HAL by virtue of its strategic location at the customer’s doorstep. The space freed at Dynamatic’s aerospace production facilities in Bangalore, by the assembly transfer, will be utilized by the company for its export initiatives.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Jul 2010 16:27

Russia (and Libya later) to get first SU-35S's by the year end.These are Flanker airframes with more powerful engines,etc.The aircraft will be the interim Russian Flanker variant/fighter under production until the PAK-FA enters production by 2015.

A further focus during the initial trials was at the fighter’s onboard equipment. The Su-35 is equipped with the NIIP Tikhomirov Irbis passive phased-array radar. The radar is intended to be able to track 30 airborne targets and engage 8 of them while at the same time tracking 4 and engaging 2 ground targets. According to Pogosyan, during the trials the radar showed a maximum detection range against the airborne targets of 400 km.

The Su-35’s infra-red search and track was able to detect and simultaneously track several targets at ranges in excess of more than 80 km.

The reported service life of the new aircraft is 6,000 flight hours, with a planned operational life of 30 years. The intended service life of NPO Saturn 117S engines is 4,000 hours, say the designers.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Jul 2010 17:17

Scrap MMRCA go for Su-35S with a nice 1500 T/R AESA module

arya · Post by **arya** » 27 Jul 2010 17:34

Austin wrote:Scrap MMRCA go for Su-35S with a nice 1500 T/R AESA module

Sorry Sir,

but i will have to say "Not again"

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 10 Aug 2010 02:26

India may buy 42 more Sukhois

Full Article posted below

New Delhi, Aug. 9: Even as the Agni-III intermediate-range ballistic missile is “ready for induction into the services”, the government could soon clear a defence deal worth over Rs 20,000 crore for procurement of another 42 Russian-origin Sukhoi 30 MKI fighter aircraft that are currently being manufactured under license from Russia by the Bengaluru-based Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL).

The Sukhoi acquisition proposal has been cleared by the Defence Acquisition Council and will soon be taken up for final approval by the Cabinet Committee on Security chaired by the Prime Minister. The aircraft will be delivered between 2014 to 2018.

The Agni-III ballistic missile, having a range of 3,000 km and capable of hitting targets in certain regions of China, is now ready for induction into the armed forces.

The government also stated before Parliament that the Army has placed an order for another 124 indigenous upgraded version of the Arjun battle tanks apart from the initial order several years ago for 124 Arjun tanks.

The Arjun tanks have been developed by the DRDO and manufactured at the Heavy Vehicle Factory at Avadi near Chennai.

The government also informed that over 60 Army trainee officers had been “expelled” from their respective academies after receiving injuries during their training.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 10 Aug 2010 02:58

^^^ Is this beyond what the Cabinet Committee on Security had cleared for the Rs 15,000 crore (US$ 3.2 billion) deal in which 42 aircraft would be in service by 2018.

Why the rise in price now?! Rs. 20,000 crores is almost 4.3 billion dollars. That puts the price at 100 million per plane !!!

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 10 Aug 2010 10:01

I wish the new SU-30 contracts are for SU-34. IMO, if we go for Typhoon we have enough air superiority platforms in the form of SU-MKI and later the MRCA. Going for another air superiority platform in the form of SU-35 would not make sense, but going a strike/defending platform like SU-34 would make sense. More over India will be first nation apart from Russia, which operates SU-34 strike platform. Snapping SU-34 with KNIRTI SPS-171 / L005S and/or SAP-14 would be Indian equivalent of Growler. JMT.

A newbie question, what is the relevant advantage of RCS of SU-34 over SU-30/SU-35 (in vanilla plain).

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 10 Aug 2010 20:02

The 4th para is interesting and mind boggling. We seem to have missed an awful lot of information if what she's written is true!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Aug 2010 20:05

So the SU-30 will be the heavy workhorse for IAF. More than the MRCA. Any details on the radar she talks about? Is it Indian or from outside?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Aug 2010 20:20

NIIP X Band AESA ~ 1,500 T/R module and L-Band AESA

NIIP L-Band AESA
X Band AESA

But most likely the upgrade to MKI will be a BARS Upgrade to Irbis standards

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 10 Aug 2010 20:39

ramana wrote:So the SU-30 will be the heavy workhorse for IAF. More than the MRCA. Any details on the radar she talks about? Is it Indian or from outside?

Work horse? Yes. But do you really believe the 250 + 40 + 40 numbers she's quoted?

Unless its the Su-35 the GOI is going after.

And another option for the radar: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 01#p908901

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 10 Aug 2010 21:30

Dmurphy wrote: But do you really believe the 250 + 40 + 40 numbers she's quoted? Unless its the Su-35 the GOI is going after.

There seems to be some confusion in the mind of Suman Sharma. It has to be 190 + 40 + 42 out of which 2 crashed. So total number is 270. This number has already been mentioned multiple times in the media before. I have no idea how she came up with 250 + 40 + 40.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Aug 2010 21:53

the worrying part is absolutely no news of how and when the successors of the r77 and r73 are going to appear and about FOC of KS172.

a tiger is only as good as its teeth and jump range.

naird · Post by **naird** » 10 Aug 2010 22:16

Austin wrote:NIIP X Band AESA ~ 1,500 T/R module and L-Band AESA

NIIP L-Band AESA
X Band AESA

But most likely the upgrade to MKI will be a BARS Upgrade to Irbis standards

Hi Austin --

Pogosyan had recently quoted that to upgrade from BARS to Irbis is not feasible..as IRBIS cannot be powered by the current su 30 MKI engines. !!

So unless i am missing something -- it is not possible

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Aug 2010 22:21

Naird this is what we may see in Super MKI

'Bars' upgrade potential

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Aug 2010 22:54

a similar sized AESA radiates and uses less power than a PESA or more ?

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 11 Aug 2010 08:52

India To Buy More Su-30sMKIs
Aviation Week

India To Buy More Su-30sMKIs
Aug 10, 2010

By Robert Wall [ wall@aviationweek.com ]
LONDON
The Indian defense ministry says it will buy 42 more Su-30MKI fighters, with deliveries to unfold between 2014-2018.

The Total Deal is Valued at around $4.3 Billion.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 11 Aug 2010 08:58

Juggi G wrote:India To Buy More Su-30sMKIs
Aviation Week
India To Buy More Su-30sMKIs
Aug 10, 2010

By Robert Wall [ wall@aviationweek.com ]
LONDON
The Indian defense ministry says it will buy 42 more Su-30MKI fighters, with deliveries to unfold between 2014-2018.

The Total Deal is Valued at around $4.3 Billion.

perhaps for all the orders from HAL.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Aug 2010 09:14

Singha wrote:a similar sized AESA radiates and uses less power than a PESA or more ?

Will depend on the individual T/R module , if the individual T/R module is rated at ~ 10W then a 1500 T/R module should be rated ~ 15 kW much higher than BARS but lower then Irbis , it these GaA module is rated at 15W then it should outclass Irbis peak output of 20 kW.

Once Ga/N T/R module is commercially viable then each module can have rating of any where between 20 to 30 W , that should have phenomenal increase in tracking and detection capability should be almost one amd half times of Irbis.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Aug 2010 09:33

Thanks Suman Sharma for the news.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 11 Aug 2010 19:56

Full Sukhoi squadron in Tezpur, next in Chabua

A full squadron of Sukhoi-30 warplanes have been deployed at Assam's Tezpur air base, while another squadron is expected to be brought to upper Assam base of Chabua by the end of the year. The full complement of Sukhoi fighter jets arrived at Tezpur this June and the squadron is operational, defence sources said.

The air base at Chabua is being upgraded to house the warplanes which will subsequently replace the ageing MIGs. The sources said the runway, taxi track, hanger and other airfield infrastructure at Chabua air base is being upgraded.

Besides the Sukhois, the sources said once the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal is through, Air Force would deploy some of the squadrons in the eastern sector. Currently, trials are being conducted with aircraft of six manufacturers for the 126 aircraft deal, officials said.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 12 Aug 2010 06:05

Sorry state of affairs an Onus on HAL to speed up Su-30 MKI Production

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) will have to step up Su-30MKI production at its Nasik facility following the announcement that 42 more fighters are being ordered from Russia.

“The ball is now in HAL’s court and it needs to speed up the delivery of the current order so as to take the additional load,” a senior Indian Air Force (IAF) official told AVIATION WEEK. HAL has been told to complete the ongoing Su-30MKI blocks (under the compressed schedule) by 2015 at all costs. “There are concerns expressed by us time and again and we are watching the progress at the other end,” the official said.

When asked to explain what the IAF “concerns” were, the official declined to elaborate.

Sources in HAL said that the overall production rate of Su-30MKI during the current financial year is falling far behind expectations.

The IAF already have inducted more than 110 Sukhois (out of original 230 aircraft) and the additional 42 would take the total strength to 272 (Aerospace DAILY, Aug. 11). The IAF fleet has been steadily declining the last few years. It is operating with 32 fighter squadrons, short of the approved 39.5, and fleet strength could dip to 27 by 2017.

Indian defense minister A.K. Antony told the Indian Parliament that the Su-30MKIs would be delivered to the IAF during 2014-2018. The IAF currently operates five Su-30 squadrons, with three in Pune and two in Bareilly. Two more squadrons are likely to come up in Halwara (Punjab), Jodhpur (Rajasthan) and Tezpur, Chabua (Assam). The fighter will soon carry a version of the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile.

The Sukhois are built under license at HAL’s five Divisions (Nasik, Koraput, Hyderabad, Lucknow and Korwa) and are later assembled, integrated, test-flown and delivered from Nasik. Fifty Sukhois initially came directly from Russia between 2002 and 2005. All of these divisions will be participating in the raw material phase of manufacturing the new Sukhois.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 12 Aug 2010 09:54

India Deploys Su-30s Near China

India Deploys Su-30s Near China
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI
Published: 11 Aug 2010

NEW DELHI - The Indian Air Force has deployed a full squadron of Russian-made Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole aircraft to an air base near the Chinese border.

The Su-30s are at the Air Force base in Tezpur in the eastern state of Assam.

Another air base near the border, Chabua, is being upgraded to house Sukhois, transport aircraft and eventually the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), a senior Indian Air Force official said.

The moves are part of the effort to strengthen India's defenses against China.

The MMRCA will fly in the Indian northeast near the Chinese border and northwest, near Pakistan, the official said.

In June, the government approved a deal worth more than $3.3 billion to buy 42 more Su-30s, bringing the planned total to 272 by 2018.

The Su-30 will be the most numerous fighter in the Indian fleet.

The Official said a Nuclear-Armed Su-30MKI could Fly Deep Inside China with Midair Refueling.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 14 Aug 2010 04:27

Onus on HAL to speed-up SU-30 MKI production

“The ball is now in HAL’s court and it needs to speed up the delivery of the current order so as to take the additional load,” a senior Indian Air Force (IAF) official told AVIATION WEEK. HAL has been told to complete the ongoing Su-30MKI blocks (under the compressed schedule) by 2015 at all costs. “There are concerns expressed by us time and again and we are watching the progress at the other end,” the official said.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Aug 2010 17:31

If HAL is a bottle neck for IAF then they can always get it from Irkut

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 14 Aug 2010 20:13

With the recent announcements of multiple defense deals and all the activity at the borders with regards to airfields upgrades etc and significant chinese military activity on our borders I have a bad feeling that something is being hidden from the indian public.
The goi have intel that there is a high risk of chinese attack in the next few yrs and as usual we are not prepared.
A full MKI fleet as ordered is a must to stop any chinese advance.
As is likely HAL can not deliver on time we must ask Irkut to deliver these flankers as as soon as possible. In my opinion this is critical

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 14 Aug 2010 21:45

If HAL is not efficient enough, why cant India create another HAL clone ? India has technology and never short of Engineers or money, what is stopping them ?

snahata wrote:With the recent announcements of multiple defense deals and all the activity at the borders with regards to airfields upgrades etc and significant chinese military activity on our borders I have a bad feeling that something is being hidden from the indian public.
The goi have itel that there is a high risk of chinese attack in the next few yrs and as usual we are not prepared.
A full MKI fleet as ordered is a must to stop any chinese advance.
As is likely HAL can not deliver on time we must ask Irkut to deliver these flankers as as soon as possible. In my opinion this is critical

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 14 Aug 2010 22:15

"Thomas Kolarek"If HAL is not efficient enough, why cant India create another HAL clone ? India has technology and never short of Engineers or money, what is stopping them ?

HAL should start a new assembly line (that is a manufacturing plant)to build/assemble the various aircraft it is planning to building. This can be done in a place like Hyderabad, where the required supporting industrial infrastructure and the skilled workforce is available, along with the old Hyderabad airport for testing.

As for money, it costs a lot of money to setup a new aircraft assembly line. It might be good for Govt of India to go in a 60:40 partnership with the Tatas or L&T. With the private sector having the bigger share.

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 14 Aug 2010 22:16

If I was a chinese general I would recommend to my government that this is the perfect time to attack India.
The airforce is depleted and in the beginning of significant upgrade in capability, army is short of modern artillery, navy is yet to receive the the two carriers ordered. awacs, transport planes, submarines, tanks and lots of other important equipment is on order but would take a long time to be delivered and proceeding as usual at a snail,s pace
GOI seems to have woken up but to me seems a bit late .
I hope I am wrong

bhavani · Post by **bhavani** » 14 Aug 2010 22:25

snahata wrote:If I was a chinese general I would recommend to my government that this is the perfect time to attack India.
The airforce is depleted and in the beginning of significant upgrade in capability, army is short of modern artillery, navy is yet to receive the the two carriers ordered. awacs, transport planes, submarines, tanks and lots of other important equipment is on order but would take a long time to be delivered and proceeding as usual at a snail,s pace
GOI seems to have woken up but to me seems a bit late .
I hope I am wrong

I think this is out of topic,

chinese are on the way to upgrading thier forces. Thier navy is being upgraded and is a work in progress and currently is anot a blue water navy and is a long way from that. Thier airforce is still changing and has not matured yet. Most importantly thier economy also cant bear a war at this point. I think Chinese cant afford a war right now if they want the GDP growth to continue at 10%

Mods please delete the comments as they are off topic

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 14 Aug 2010 22:33

I agree with snahata. Something is going on that is being hidden. The years of neglect, the dilly dallying, the corruption is now coming home to bite us in the back. For heaven's sake we can't decide on buying fighters, arty in less than 10-15yrs.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 15 Aug 2010 14:20

[youtube]sub7vro0z-4&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

Hate the way he tries to sensationalise the MKI deal and the M2K upgrade deal. As if they're some pieces of trash.

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 15 Aug 2010 17:07

ppl should know, we are only paying royalty charges to Russia and the hike in prices is due to the increase in the material costs and the new upgraded components.

India is only paying to HAL and not Russia directly.

It just shows:
a. Poor reporting
b. poor planning of air force, the IAF should have signed the deal in 2007 for 150 jets rather than in bits and pieces.