PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 24 Jul 2010 22:47

shiv wrote:Just curious.

If PAKFA can be a Raptor killer, why not Su 30? What would the PAKFA have in terms of Raptor killing ability that the Su 30 or future upgrades might lack?

You don't need a stealth fighter to kill another stealth fighter, You only need a bullet or missile to hit the plane you want to kill. The only problem is detecting that stealth attacker. After all You don't need a T 90 or Arjun to kill an Al Khali. A Nag will do.

Shiv, of course. The problem, though, is that the F-22 won't stand around passively waiting to be killed. If an MKI could detect and lock on to the F-22, sure, the MKI could kill it. But the MKI would probably be killed by the F-22 before that happened.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 25 Jul 2010 01:19

That will happen only if the fight is one on one

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 25 Jul 2010 01:46

Would the F-22 not see the Su-30 before the Su-30 detects it?

Not to mention with its radar+datalink, be able to guide other planes to the area?

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 25 Jul 2010 03:11

shiv wrote:Just curious.

If PAKFA can be a Raptor killer, why not Su 30? What would the PAKFA have in terms of Raptor killing ability that the Su 30 or future upgrades might lack?

You don't need a stealth fighter to kill another stealth fighter, You only need a bullet or missile to hit the plane you want to kill. The only problem is detecting that stealth attacker. After all You don't need a T 90 or Arjun to kill an Al Khali. A Nag will do.

Hmmm....... PAK-FA would be able to get a closer shot! But there is no reason why Su-30 can't get a F-22! if we have good MAWS and active Jammers installed then all of Raptors BVRAAMs will go waste ! At closer ranges, stealth would do no good! Once Flankers have better engines, it all boils down to pilot skill and luck!

naird · Post by **naird** » 25 Jul 2010 03:21

shiv wrote:Just curious.

If PAKFA can be a Raptor killer, why not Su 30? What would the PAKFA have in terms of Raptor killing ability that the Su 30 or future upgrades might lack?

You don't need a stealth fighter to kill another stealth fighter, You only need a bullet or missile to hit the plane you want to kill. The only problem is detecting that stealth attacker. After all You don't need a T 90 or Arjun to kill an Al Khali. A Nag will do.

Sure Shiv...but for that to happen there are two things to consider --

1) Su 30 should be able to detect it.
2) F22 should have exhausted all its missiles , forcing it into a WVR range fight.

How can Su 30 detect it -- May be the missile doors jam and it doesnt close

..to many probabilities !!

Beauty of PAK FA is --F22 will also not be able to detect it due to a very low frontal rcs of PAK FA...hence the fight can be in the WVR range.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 25 Jul 2010 04:05

Kanan wrote:
Hmmm....... PAK-FA would be able to get a closer shot! But there is no reason why Su-30 can't get a F-22! if we have good MAWS and active Jammers installed then all of Raptors BVRAAMs will go waste ! At closer ranges, stealth would do no good! Once Flankers have better engines, it all boils down to pilot skill and luck!

How would you know the Raptor is even there...

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 25 Jul 2010 06:49

Carl_T wrote:
Kanan wrote:
Hmmm....... PAK-FA would be able to get a closer shot! But there is no reason why Su-30 can't get a F-22! if we have good MAWS and active Jammers installed then all of Raptors BVRAAMs will go waste ! At closer ranges, stealth would do no good! Once Flankers have better engines, it all boils down to pilot skill and luck!

How would you know the Raptor is even there...

I believe what Kanan is trying to say is that with the Pak Fa facing ze raptor they will both detect each other quite late in the game...key to remember is that the Raptor is not completely invisible it means that the opposing fighter will detect it too late in the game onlee at which point the raptors amraams will be well on its way to clip the fighters wings.

What may happen is that the pak fa and raptor will detect each other so late in the game that bvr may not end up being an option and that will force em to go wvr...how ironic will that be that since the inception of fighters guns were the keys then came the mijjiles during the vietnam era and guns took a backup seat option onlee and probably in the near future stealth will render the mijjiles probably not as effective at bvr ranges and guns and short range aams will become more prominent onlee....

we should also remember that the pak fa is like a kid going through his undergrad it is being "groomed" and just like the kid who will turn into a man in a real job the pak fa will mature when it gets fully operational onlee...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jul 2010 06:53

naird wrote:
shiv wrote:Just curious.

If PAKFA can be a Raptor killer, why not Su 30? What would the PAKFA have in terms of Raptor killing ability that the Su 30 or future upgrades might lack?

You don't need a stealth fighter to kill another stealth fighter, You only need a bullet or missile to hit the plane you want to kill. The only problem is detecting that stealth attacker. After all You don't need a T 90 or Arjun to kill an Al Khali. A Nag will do.
Sure Shiv...but for that to happen there are two things to consider --

1) Su 30 should be able to detect it.
2) F22 should have exhausted all its missiles , forcing it into a WVR range fight.

How can Su 30 detect it -- May be the missile doors jam and it doesnt close ..to many probabilities !!

Beauty of PAK FA is --F22 will also not be able to detect it due to a very low frontal rcs of PAK FA...hence the fight can be in the WVR range.

Saar - look at it this way. If the stealth fighter can detect others earlier - all you need to do is have 10 heavily armed MiG 21s circling every important target at the start of conflict. Either the Raptor detects them and stays away or tries to get in despite the CAP and gets overpowered by numbers in WVR combat. An attacking Raptor is unlikely to be carrying more than 2 AAMs internally and can be spotted WVR unless it is a dark night.

In practice the Raptor would have come in for an attack. Once a target is attacked the air around the target and the exit route will be thick with air defence fighters (which may not have detected the attacker but will know damn well that there is an attacker around). Technically a Raptor that has come in for a stealthy attack will not be armed with more than a couple of AAMs internally and will be looking to escape. Even 6 MiG 21s - each situated 120 degrees apart from the Raptor could take it down.

The point is
1) You will not always have PAKFA on hand to take on a Raptor and vice versa
2) You will not know whether an attacker is a Raptor or not or a mix of fighters when you send fighters on CAP
3) You do not need PAKFA to fight a Raptor optimized for a stealthy attack role. You need numbers
4) Pakis wil not get Indian PAKFA with Raptor. They will use 6 JF 17s. and 2 F-16s
5) You need PAKFA as a stealthy attacker in the early phases of conflict when you are doing SEAD. After that you can make it unstealthy and hang munitions off its wings rather than carrying 4 bombs (or worse 2 bombs like F 35)

There are further points but I have no knowledge.
1) Prof Prodyut Das says that real stealth from a Raptor style aircraft comes only on clear new moon nights. Or else it is detectable and not totally stealthy as we tend to assume
2) Stealth aircraft have been proven to be effective in combat over Bosnia and Iraq. Nobody has tried using them in hot conflict against serious adversaries. Iraq was hardly a serious adversary - it was hyped up.
3) Stealth makes the radar signature small (I am told). Cruise missiles and UAVs are small and stealthy. If you can detect cruise missiles and UAVs you will have a means of anticipating attacks by stealth fighters and have CAP ready for them and outnumber them 4:1 or 6:1. You do not need PAKFA for this.

Finally I believe that this sort of conflict is becoming obsolete. I might post my reasons for saying this in the "future of warfare" thread.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 25 Jul 2010 07:02

^^^ Daktir sahib on top of what you have mentioned:

- Stealth a/c have nevery yet faced an adversary with a decent C4I, with capable radars, sams, interceptors to boot hence IMVHO we have no idea as to how effective they really will be and being an ebil yindoo I have no belief in all those joo tube khan videos onlee thank you very much

- Also in regards to your paki scenario well saar we should be getting a decent number of Pak fa's add to that the huge rambha fleet I am not even counting mrcas ityadi.

I think the real stealth a/cs will be tejas mk1/mk2 armed only with aams going completely emcon silent and being guided by phalcon or GCI now the results of that I would like to see...

negi · Post by **negi** » 25 Jul 2010 07:19

Well one can obviously spin scenarios to take down any AC be it the Raptor or Mig-21 the point is for every 'n' scenarios which we can spin to show as to how Mig-21 will take out a F-22 there will be at least 'm' scenarios where F-22 will have an upper hand (where 'm'>'n') . The most important thing to note is countries which have competency to design,build and operate F-22/PAKFA like platforms have experience with conventional platforms they obviously have the luxury of having simulated hypothetical battlefield scenarios with older generation aircraft to validate the idea of fielding a stealth aircraft and arrive at suitable mission profiles where their platforms will be dictating the rules of the engagement.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 25 Jul 2010 07:48

andy B wrote:
I believe what Kanan is trying to say is that with the Pak Fa facing ze raptor they will both detect each other quite late in the game...key to remember is that the Raptor is not completely invisible it means that the opposing fighter will detect it too late in the game onlee at which point the raptors amraams will be well on its way to clip the fighters wings.

I agree with what you say about the Pakfa, but Kanan was referring to the Su-30. I think the Raptor would spot it before vice versa.

He was saying you could use jammers to deter missiles launched by the F-22, but I think the Raptor would have a big advantage

Kanan wrote:
Hmmm....... PAK-FA would be able to get a closer shot! But there is no reason why Su-30 can't get a F-22! if we have good MAWS and active Jammers installed then all of Raptors BVRAAMs will go waste ! At closer ranges, stealth would do no good! Once Flankers have better engines, it all boils down to pilot skill and luck!

Would they ever get close though?

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 25 Jul 2010 08:02

Can Su-30MKI like aircraft beat F-22 ? Yes it can. F-18(Growler) scored a kill against F-22.
Su-30MKI is a capable platform and can be molded in whichever way we wanted. Here we dont know which scenario led to that kill. Most of the time F-22 fought against F-16/F-15 with its hand tied.

But taking that further to state, Mig 21 can be used to kill F-22 is strech of imagination. I'm not mocking, seriously, Sirji, how many times anyone have killed the mouse which is trying to escape from your hit running across your room with less effort like hiting a mosquito. You know where the mouse is ...but the speed and agility of the mouse, you know where it is now but you wont be knowing where it will at the next sec, gives you a hard time {the only times where i had luck was when it was cornered with little space to jump or run} . Same way with exceptional situational awareness, speed and agility and a long leg combined with stealth, and unparalleled hi-tech avionics(including radar) you may able to spot where the Raptor is now, if you have the capability, but it wont allow you to touch it becoz it 'sees' much beyond than what you can see. It fools you with its advanced avionics and further going by the rumoured capabilities, its radar can fry any electronics component of the approaching missile or even the tracking radar. Thats the difference between the peacetime drill and wartime kill.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 25 Jul 2010 08:17

Well you can probably think of a scenario in which a mig-21 can kill a raptor, but I think that the USAF would try to use the plane in a way that preserves its advantages. Would the Mig-21 beat the Raptor in BVR?

If the Raptor can see further out than other planes due to its radar and other planes cannot see it very easily (if at all?), how would you be jamming the F-22 bvraams?

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 25 Jul 2010 08:23

Carl_T wrote:If the Raptor can see further out than other planes due to its radar and other planes cannot see it very easily (if at all?), how would you be jamming the F-22 bvraams?

Well, a little I might be knowing of the issue but it is said that F-22 is prone when doors are open. After all a missiles can be tracked from its IR signature...and perhaps can be blocked.

kit · Post by **kit** » 25 Jul 2010 08:52

A bit off topic but can the LCA mark 2 be designed with internal bomb bays and more stealth features similar to the silent Eagle, and a more powerful engine, which i guess is already on the way.The RCS would probably be one the lowest !

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Jul 2010 09:08

I agree with Negi , we can always twist scenario which can show 10 Mig-21 taking on 2 Raptors and 10 guys on ground with AK-47 getting a hit on low flying raptor.

Raptor is not just a stealth platform but kinemetically a superior platform in raw performance , so the advantage is not just BVR but also WVR.

We have never DACT'ed with Raptor to understand all its pros and cons but we have DACT'd with Eurofighter Typhoon and as per an interview with RAF chief , the Eurofighter and MKI were evenly matched at low level and above 40K feet the Typhoon excelled over MKI he is probably referring to BFM , RAF Eurofighter have DACT'd extensively with Raptor where the latter has fared well as per tidbid in aviation mag (AFM )

Saying that I should say an MKI and Raptor duel at BVR is winnable if MKI gets an early detection of Raptor ( either by IADS , AWACS ) and then it is matched with a Long Range Missile like AAM-L ( KS-172 ) ideally with IIR sensors and a couple of it flies passive all the way to the target to keep the element of surprise and kill , Raptor if one watches the IR video has many sweet hot spots all over the aircraft something a good IIR sensor should be able to exploit.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 25 Jul 2010 09:36

Kanan wrote:
shiv wrote:Just curious.

If PAKFA can be a Raptor killer, why not Su 30? What would the PAKFA have in terms of Raptor killing ability that the Su 30 or future upgrades might lack?

You don't need a stealth fighter to kill another stealth fighter, You only need a bullet or missile to hit the plane you want to kill. The only problem is detecting that stealth attacker. After all You don't need a T 90 or Arjun to kill an Al Khali. A Nag will do.

Hmmm....... PAK-FA would be able to get a closer shot! But there is no reason why Su-30 can't get a F-22! if we have good MAWS and active Jammers installed then all of Raptors BVRAAMs will go waste ! At closer ranges, stealth would do no good! Once Flankers have better engines, it all boils down to pilot skill and luck!

The F-22 (and most modern fighters for that matter) can make a passive kill without the AAM ever going active. The missile may be picked by optronics but unless it can jam the datalink or force the Raptor to break lock (both very unlikely) the Sukhoi's only option is to try and make a break for it.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 25 Jul 2010 10:23

I have one question,
the RCS of f22 is said to be like that of a small bird or a marble, what are the methods to detect something as small as a bird flying at speed>mach 1, to be detected as a raptor ?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 25 Jul 2010 11:32

^^
The marble analogy was used to describe the F-22's rcs from "certain critical angles". The frontal rcs may be much larger.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jul 2010 13:41

Actually it is very simple to get brains working. But this is the wrong thread. Imagine India with PAKFA and Pakistan with JF 17 and F 16. Then all our minds will work overtime to show how Pakis will fight us.

It's only a mental block to think "I have Raptor/PAKFA. I will always win because I have done hypothetical scenarios blahblah" In the real world when those Raptors and PAKFAs have to go against swarms of aircraft determined to shoot them down the end result may not be so comforting as is being envisaged on here

But still the point I was making holds You cannot shoot down a Raptor any better with a PAKFA than with any other plane that sees the Raptor and gets a missile or a gun burst off. If you can get close enough with a gun or missile - it does not matter whether you are in a PAKFA or MiG 21. The problem is in creating situations in which any aircraft can get within firing range of a Raptor.

Those situations have to be created by any defender who does not prefer to shiver in his dhoti just because he is up against Raptor or PAKFA. At the beginning of a conflict you can expect radar sites and airfields to be attacked by stealth fighters of your adversary. It is possible to set up an ambush situation in which you start causing attrition of your adversary's preciousssss expensive Raptors and PAKFAs and after that only numbers and ability to produce more will count. If you are Yamerikan. Good for you. If you are SDRE - you need to keep your mind open.

It is silly to think of war as a joust between two knights - both on horses, both with lances and shields. If Raptors are going to attack you and you have no Raptors you cannot come to this thread, read the fanboy reports and say "I will lose so i won't fight". You set up a 10:1 situation and shoot down a couple of Raptors and make the other guy shiver in his dhoti. Of course you will have losses, but it you can inflict enough losses on him - your MiG 21s/JF 17s will be replaceable sooner. And cheaper. And the other guy will start worrying about sending his Raptors when he sees a swarm on his radar screen.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jul 2010 14:22

Viv S wrote: The F-22 (and most modern fighters for that matter) can make a passive kill without the AAM ever going active. The missile may be picked by optronics but unless it can jam the datalink or force the Raptor to break lock (both very unlikely)

Could you explain what you mean by this please?

If the AAM is not active and is an IR missile what is the need for a "datalink"

If there is a datalink, someone is emitting signals and is unstealthy.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jul 2010 14:24

Austin wrote:I agree with Negi , we can always twist scenario which can show 10 Mig-21 taking on 2 Raptors and 10 guys on ground with AK-47 getting a hit on low flying raptor.

Raptor is not just a stealth platform but kinemetically a superior platform in raw performance , so the advantage is not just BVR but also WVR.

No Not AK 47s. The JF 17 - which is a potent and cheap platform. Not to be underestimated by the skeptics.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 25 Jul 2010 17:05

A raptor against a mig 21 is really not a realistic senario. The raptors main advantage is stelth, but it would loose this advantage if it swithed on its radar.

But if the Raptor is fed information from an Awacs, knows the whereabouts other non stelth aircarfs will be history within minutes.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 25 Jul 2010 19:50

Shiv Sir,
I think I can understand what you mean to say. You are saying that though F-22 clearly a superior platform (both in BVR and WVR) as compared to other 4th gen a/cs, its cost makes it inferior. In the cost to produce and maintain one F-22, one can instead produce and operate several cheap 4th gen a/cs (which through sheer numbers would be too much for one F-22 to handle). Am I understanding you correctly? If so, then let me continue by coming to the first question you posed. You asked "If PAKFA can be a Raptor killer, why not Su 30?". Certainly, in enough nos, MKI can be a Raptor killer. But since you asked this question in PAK-FA thread, I am taking the liberty to assume that you questioning the rationale behind developing PAK-FA when MKI in nos can defeat F-22. If so, then the answer is that is that as far as India is concerned, PAK-FA is not intended to be a raptor killer (because the likelihood of IAF fighting against a/cs with Raptor's performance is close to Zero). IMO, its role will be to perform operations in which its effectiveness will be much superior to any 4th gen fighter (mainly SEAD and recon).No no of aircrafts will be able to perform SEAD operations as well as PAK-FA (which you yourself have mentioned in one of your post) and considering the size of its internal bay, aerodynamic performance, range, 3 powerful radars and target cost, it will have a good value/cost ration. The main limitation of F-22 is cost. Hopefully, PAK-FA will not suffer from the same disadvantage. So, with reasonable cost, it should also be most effective air to air platform. Also, as far as my understanding goes, your main argument is for large no of cheap fighters instead of small no of super costlly fighters. No one can debate with you on this and hopefully tejas would be the cheap fighter that would make up the nos for us. However, I hope you would agree that every AF also needs a small no of high performance fighters to do the critical jobs that the others cant. PAK-FA would be that fighter for us.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 25 Jul 2010 21:44

shiv wrote: But still the point I was making holds You cannot shoot down a Raptor any better with a PAKFA than with any other plane that sees the Raptor and gets a missile or a gun burst off. If you can get close enough with a gun or missile - it does not matter whether you are in a PAKFA or MiG 21. The problem is in creating situations in which any aircraft can get within firing range of a Raptor.

If you put the Mig 21 withing 100 feet of the Raptor, certainly the Mig has a chance of shooting the Raptor down. Now, will the USAF ever let such a scenario happen to their most prized assets? AFAIK the point of the Raptor is to be able to destroy enemy planes from miles away.

It keeps coming back to the same problem: How will enemy planes see the Raptor? If enemy planes can see it, wouldn't it already be within range of the raptor long before that point? Now if you say that an AWACS is guiding a Mig-21 to a Raptor with its vast range, then in such a scenario I would imagine there would be more than one Raptor flying in formation, with the goal of killing the AWACS as well, not to mention the Raptors may be backed up by their own awacs right?

shiv wrote: It is silly to think of war as a joust between two knights - both on horses, both with lances and shields. If Raptors are going to attack you and you have no Raptors you cannot come to this thread, read the fanboy reports and say "I will lose so i won't fight". You set up a 10:1 situation and shoot down a couple of Raptors and make the other guy shiver in his dhoti. Of course you will have losses, but it you can inflict enough losses on him - your MiG 21s/JF 17s will be replaceable sooner. And cheaper. And the other guy will start worrying about sending his Raptors when he sees a swarm on his radar screen.

Would the USAF let such a situation happen that one of their F-22s is surrounded by 10 chinese planes? Not to mention the Raptors could also be escorting cheap F-16s, heavily armed F-35s, EA-18s and what not.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jul 2010 22:24

Gaur wrote:I am taking the liberty to assume that you questioning the rationale behind developing PAK-FA when MKI in nos can defeat F-22. If so, then the answer is that is that as far as India is concerned, PAK-FA is not intended to be a raptor killer .

Well you are nearly there. I see a lot of posts on this forum that assume that a PAKFA is needed to fight a Raptor. That is balderdash. That is what I am trying to say. You do not develop a PAKFA to shoot down a Raptor. You develop a PAKFA to do the same job as a Raptor.

I am only saying that the rational for a PAKFA is not to shoot down Raptors. I am not agaiisnt the PAKFA. I am against the ignorant assumption that if we have the PAKFA we will be able to shoot down Raptors better. That is all.

Too many people seem to say "Ah PAKFA vesrsus Raptor" Finally Raptor meets its match. Balls. That is not the way things work.

Does anyone understand what I am saying?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 25 Jul 2010 22:26

Carl_T wrote:
shiv wrote: But still the point I was making holds You cannot shoot down a Raptor any better with a PAKFA than with any other plane that sees the Raptor and gets a missile or a gun burst off. If you can get close enough with a gun or missile - it does not matter whether you are in a PAKFA or MiG 21. The problem is in creating situations in which any aircraft can get within firing range of a Raptor.
If you put the Mig 21 withing 100 feet of the Raptor, certainly the Mig has a chance of shooting the Raptor down. Now, will the USAF ever let such a scenario happen to their most prized assets? AFAIK the point of the Raptor is to be able to destroy enemy planes from miles away.

It keeps coming back to the same problem: How will enemy planes see the Raptor? If enemy planes can see it, wouldn't it already be within range of the raptor long before that point? Now if you say that an AWACS is guiding a Mig-21 to a Raptor with its vast range, then in such a scenario I would imagine there would be more than one Raptor flying in formation, with the goal of killing the AWACS as well, not to mention the Raptors may be backed up by their own awacs right?

The point Shiv ji is trying to make is that for the cost of producing and maintaining a raptor, you could get at least 6 Mig-21s. So for pure air to air scenario, raptor (otherwise an excellent platform) gets in disadvantage because of its cost.

Would the USAF let such a situation happen that one of their F-22s is surrounded by 10 chinese planes?

Well, its not the question of USAF. The question is generic. How much useful are fighters which cost as much as raptors (even though they may have excellent performance)? No AF can confidently control each and every situation. In war, no user can say that "this fighter will be attacked only in such ways". USAF does not have to worry about this because its a/c strength is of no match and it has virtually unlimited resources. But if an AF is given X amount of dollars to spend for air to air role, it makes much more sense to go for more a/cs than a few F-22 class (by class I mean as costly) a/cs.
Not to mention the Raptors could also b ... what not.
In such a case, the raptor would lose its main advantage, surprise.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jul 2010 22:26

Carl_T wrote:
Would the USAF let such a situation happen that one of their F-22s is surrounded by 10 chinese planes? Not to mention the Raptors could also be escorting cheap F-16s, heavily armed F-35s, EA-18s and what not.

Would the USAF allow PAKFAs to surround their Raptors?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jul 2010 22:31

Gaur wrote: The point Shiv ji is trying to make is that for the cost of producing and maintaining a raptor, you could get at least 6 Mig-21s. So for pure air to air scenario, raptor (otherwise an excellent platform) gets in disadvantage because of its cost.

Actually Gaur, my point is that PAKFA ia not an answer to Raptor as too many people on BRF seem to assume. It is NOT. My comments started off when I read just such a statement

The statement was "Pakfa will prove to be a real raptor killer"

No. Not necessarily. If Pakfa can kill Raptor so can Su 30.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 25 Jul 2010 22:34

shiv wrote:
Gaur wrote:I am taking the liberty to assume that you questioning the rationale behind developing PAK-FA when MKI in nos can defeat F-22. If so, then the answer is that is that as far as India is concerned, PAK-FA is not intended to be a raptor killer .
Well you are nearly there. I see a lot of posts on this forum that assume that a PAKFA is needed to fight a Raptor. That is balderdash. That is what I am trying to say. You do not develop a PAKFA to shoot down a Raptor. You develop a PAKFA to do the same job as a Raptor.

I am only saying that the rational for a PAKFA is not to shoot down Raptors. I am not agaiisnt the PAKFA. I am against the ignorant assumption that if we have the PAKFA we will be able to shoot down Raptors better. That is all.

Too many people seem to say "Ah PAKFA vesrsus Raptor" Finally Raptor meets its match. Balls. That is not the way things work.

Does anyone understand what I am saying?

Yes, I get what you are saying and I totally agree with you. The problem is that US has created such hype and aura of awe around RAPTOR (whether justified or not is another matter), that most people simply cannot imagine the mighty raptor being shot down by measly 4th gen a/cs (let alone Mig-21s). It is most simple thing to understand that even F-22 can carry only 6 BVRs in its internal bay and every BVR shot would not result in a kill. No a/c, no matter how potent, can stand against multiple a/cs.

negi · Post by **negi** » 25 Jul 2010 22:39

2.You develop a PAKFA to do the same job as a Raptor.

Well but Raptor's primary task is to achieve 'Air Superiority' i.e. to neutralize any aerial threats in the designated air space which might include stealth AC and its avionics suite when compared to JSF clearly indicates the emphasis on A2A role.

It remains to be seen how PAKFA turns out in its final avatar but from the published specs one can easily deduce that it is very close to F-22 and not the JSF and obviously has a better chance to engage a Raptor than any of the other AC from Russian stable (other variables being constant).

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jul 2010 22:56

negi wrote: obviously has a better chance to engage a Raptor than any of the other AC from Russian stable (other variables being constant).

To me it is not obvious how a PAKFA would find it easier to get anywhere near a Raptor. If the PAKFA can get near a Raptor any other aircrfat can do it. If the PAKFA can take out Raptor BVR any other plane should be able to do that. Please say how that can be done. What special eyes will a PAKFA have to see a Raptor that other aircraft lack?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 25 Jul 2010 23:11

negi,
The Raptor is a truly remarkable air superiority fighter. However, what was planned for it while it was developed and how it will be used now is a totally different matter. Originally nearly 650 raptors were to be inducted, now only 187 will be inducted. How will 187 F-22s provide air superiority v/s an adversary like Russia is anybody's guess. The major portion of air superiority role will have to be forced on other fighters.
Also, how does F-22's avionic suite emphasize on air superiority role. Forgive my ignorance but I am not too educated regarding raptor's avionics suite.

Shiv,
Though I am with you on the matter that, as far as India is concered, the primary role of PAK-FA would not be to counter F-22(IMHO). But that being said, PAK-FA does have some features which make it more suitable to counter F-22 than any other fighter. Once AL-41 is developed, it would provide PAK-FA with a twr that no other fighter can even dream of. Combine that with its already superior aerodynamic performance and it will be a force to beat. Now the feature which seems to be incorporated specially keeping stealth fighters in mind. The L-band radars present in PAK-FA's wings serve no greater purpose than to detect stealth a/cs. Also, as per Igorrs' blog citing paralay's article, the OLS of PAK-FA is supposed to detect F-22 from 100km range. So, all in all, if the cost of PAK-FA is kept under control, then unlike F-22, PAK-FA does have the potential to be a great air superiority fighter with better advantage against stealth fighters.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 26 Jul 2010 00:43

shiv wrote:
Viv S wrote: The F-22 (and most modern fighters for that matter) can make a passive kill without the AAM ever going active. The missile may be picked by optronics but unless it can jam the datalink or force the Raptor to break lock (both very unlikely)
Could you explain what you mean by this please?

If the AAM is not active and is an IR missile what is the need for a "datalink"

Well if the missile has an IR seeker, its a different (though still lethal) case. But, what I was referring to was a target coordinates being transmitted to the missile via a data-link.

If there is a datalink, someone is emitting signals and is unstealthy.

Yes its emitting, but AFAIK most modern data-links are very resistant to jamming. Also, triangulating the F-22's position isn't viable given the fact the data-link hops frequencies and transmits in bursts. The missile while not stealthy wouldn't turn on its seeker till its within say 500m of the target(1/2 sec flight time) to compensate for inaccuracies if any in the AN/APG-77's coordinates, and that's if its not already homing on to the target aircraft's jamming.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 26 Jul 2010 00:56

I think the question of "Can plane X defeat the F-22" is moot at least for India, unless we're planning on declaring war on the US.

Gaur wrote: The point Shiv ji is trying to make is that for the cost of producing and maintaining a raptor, you could get at least 6 Mig-21s. So for pure air to air scenario, raptor (otherwise an excellent platform) gets in disadvantage because of its cost.

I don't that was the argument he was making. I don't disagree with you that the Raptor may not be cost effective....One of the reasons it has been cut I suppose.

I think what he was saying was :--> there are some scenarios in which other planes can take down the F-22 and we should look to create those in order to defeat it...my issue is, would the USAF ever let these scenarios occur?

Gaur wrote: Well, its not the question of USAF. The question is generic. How much useful are fighters which cost as much as raptors (even though they may have excellent performance)? No AF can confidently control each and every situation. In war, no user can say that "this fighter will be attacked only in such ways". USAF does not have to worry about this because its a/c strength is of no match and it has virtually unlimited resources. But if an AF is given X amount of dollars to spend for air to air role, it makes much more sense to go for more a/cs than a few F-22 class (by class I mean as costly) a/cs.

Certainly the F-22 is too expensive for the US, but it's also not going to be exported to anyone else.

Gaur wrote: In such a case, the raptor would lose its main advantage, surprise.

How so? If you're an enemy pilot, you're fighting against some planes that are visible and some planes that are invisible...I think it would be a huge advantage to have a mix of aircraft.

naird · Post by **naird** » 26 Jul 2010 11:39

Shiv saar -- Late in the game...but i guess it is still worthy of discussion.

shiv wrote: Beauty of PAK FA is --F22 will also not be able to detect it due to a very low frontal rcs of PAK FA...hence the fight can be in the WVR range

Saar - look at it this way. If the stealth fighter can detect others earlier - all you need to do is have 10 heavily armed MiG 21s circling every important target at the start of conflict. Either the Raptor detects them and stays away or tries to get in despite the CAP and gets overpowered by numbers in WVR combat. An attacking Raptor is unlikely to be carrying more than 2 AAMs internally and can be spotted WVR unless it is a dark night.

Saar it doesnt matter how many migs do you have for CAP over a area -- It doesnt matter how many missiles F22 carries in its internal bay (i believe it carries 6)...The point is once couple of Mig 21 fighters which is doing CAP goes down without it never knowing what it hit them -- the other Mig's will scoot off or take evasive action. They will be on defensive and will just try to live to fight another day ! Even a fidayeen lashkar pilot will not hang around -- you cannot fight an enemy which you cant see.

This is the biggest advantage of Stealth fighter -- pshycological. F22 (considering the numbers) will be used in a superiority role whereas B2 will be used for A2G role.

shiv wrote: In practice the Raptor would have come in for an attack. Once a target is attacked the air around the target and the exit route will be thick with air defence fighters (which may not have detected the attacker but will know damn well that there is an attacker around). Technically a Raptor that has come in for a stealthy attack will not be armed with more than a couple of AAMs internally and will be looking to escape. Even 6 MiG 21s - each situated 120 degrees apart from the Raptor could take it down.

Saar - Raptor would always come in teams to come to attack -- it will never be alone. And raptor can carry as many as 6 missile internally. Raptor's role is said to be Air superiorty -- paving way or clearing the way for ground attack fighters such as hornet or B2's. As i said above if the ground target is attacked and if home base fighters take off to tackle the threat -- it still would not be able to see the F22 on its radar (if they ever take off -- F22 would send missiles on the fighters much before that). If by luck !!! They do see F22's then missiles will not work -- since F22 is not visible or it can easily break the lock on !! The fighters would have to rely purely on gun kill -- I believe the odd's are stacked hugely against a non stealth fighter.

If PAK Fa comes into play -- since it being a stealth fighter -- it can achieve the same surprise on F22's that F22 enjoys over non stealth. .i.e in other words -- You down couple of F22's without F22 knowing what hit them and you change the status quo !

shiv wrote: The point is
1) You will not always have PAKFA on hand to take on a Raptor and vice versa -- Absolutely True
2) You will not know whether an attacker is a Raptor or not or a mix of fighters when you send fighters on CAP - Not exactly but we will know its a stealth fighter -- If a missile is coming out of nowhere then there are very limited planes which can achive this.
3) You do not need PAKFA to fight a Raptor optimized for a stealthy attack role. You need numbers -- Numbers will not cut it. You cannot fight an enemy which you cant see. The only way to fight is -- Surprise F22's with a stealth fighters -- and the aggressor will be vary to send this high value planes as escorts.
4) Pakis wil not get Indian PAKFA with Raptor. They will use 6 JF 17s. and 2 F-16s -- Ohhh the pakis are planning to build JF XX -- making thunder stealthy with plastic components --
5) You need PAKFA as a stealthy attacker in the early phases of conflict when you are doing SEAD. After that you can make it unstealthy and hang munitions off its wings rather than carrying 4 bombs (or worse 2 bombs like F 35) -- I dont agree with the first part. Fighters such as F22's and PAK FA's primary mission will be air superiority or escorts -- SEAD will be carried out fighters other than stealth fighters unless absolutely needed.

There are further points but I have no knowledge.
1) Prof Prodyut Das says that real stealth from a Raptor style aircraft comes only on clear new moon nights. Or else it is detectable and not totally stealthy as we tend to assume -- clear new moon lights ...i have no idea how he arrived at this conclusion ! Is there a place where i can read up his research
2) Stealth aircraft have been proven to be effective in combat over Bosnia and Iraq. Nobody has tried using them in hot conflict against serious adversaries. Iraq was hardly a serious adversary - it was hyped up. -- Absolutely True
3) Stealth makes the radar signature small (I am told). Cruise missiles and UAVs are small and stealthy. If you can detect cruise missiles and UAVs you will have a means of anticipating attacks by stealth fighters and have CAP ready for them and outnumber them 4:1 or 6:1. You do not need PAKFA for this. -- Cruise missiles and UAV's still has a sizeable RCS unlike F22. The primary purpose of F22 was to avoid detection -- where as the primary purpose of missiles and UAV's are something else. PAK FA is a big phsycological advantage -- if an enemy doesnt know what hits them then pretty sure their fighters will not be taking off the ground

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jul 2010 17:35

naird wrote: Saar it doesnt matter how many migs do you have for CAP over a area -- It doesnt matter how many missiles F22 carries in its internal bay (i believe it carries 6)...The point is once couple of Mig 21 fighters which is doing CAP goes down without it never knowing what it hit them -- the other Mig's will scoot off or take evasive action. They will be on defensive and will just try to live to fight another day ! Even a fidayeen lashkar pilot will not hang around -- you cannot fight an enemy which you cant see.

This is the biggest advantage of Stealth fighter -- pshycological. F22 (considering the numbers) will be used in a superiority role whereas B2 will be used for A2G role.
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Saar this is a highly Paki conclusion - with respect and I am no sure how many histories or air warfare you ahev read and how many autobiographies.

Have you read Pakistani General Javid Nasir's assessment of Indian morale before Kargil?

Have you read what Gen Ayub Khan said about Hindus "In general a sharp blow at the right time and place will make the Hindu run"

Your statement reeks of that view. Since Pakistani generals believed that I suppose one is allowed to believe it if he wants - but I don't.

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 26 Jul 2010 17:49

Carl_T: I agree with what you say about the Pakfa, but Kanan was referring to the Su-30. I think the Raptor would spot it before vice versa.

He was saying you could use jammers to deter missiles launched by the F-22, but I think the Raptor would have a big advantage

A good MAWS or Missile Approach Warning System like Guitar-350, Saab MAWS etc would detect any incoming missile and give the aircraft at least 6-7 seconds (according to Guitar manufacturers) to initiate and execute countermeasures like Jamming, DIRCM, Manouvering, Flares ,deploying decoys etc! A good fighter RADAR can also detect incoming missiles! if we have a good MAWS, Active Electronic Jammers and other good counter measures on Rambha BVR warfare is as good as ruled out!

Austin wrote:Raptor is not just a stealth platform but kinemetically a superior platform in raw performance , so the advantage is not just BVR but also WVR.

Yes! But once the MKI has a better (modified) airframe and better engines, it will all boil down to better WVRAAMs, pilot skills and CHANCE! So after a major upgrade MKI would have a fair chance, IMHO!

But this cannot be an excuse for not acquiring PAKFA! As many have pointed out, India needs PAKFA!

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 26 Jul 2010 18:43

naird wrote: 3) Stealth makes the radar signature small (I am told). Cruise missiles and UAVs are small and stealthy. If you can detect cruise missiles and UAVs you will have a means of anticipating attacks by stealth fighters and have CAP ready for them and outnumber them 4:1 or 6:1. You do not need PAKFA for this. -- Cruise missiles and UAV's still has a sizeable RCS unlike F22. The primary purpose of F22 was to avoid detection -- where as the primary purpose of missiles and UAV's are something else. PAK FA is a big phsycological advantage -- if an enemy doesnt know what hits them then pretty sure their fighters will not be taking off the ground

Wouldn't it be easier to make a 1 Ton CM like Nirbhay more stealthy than a 30 ton plane like raptor or pakfa? Instead to sending in a 200 million $ plane you can pump in Brahmos and Nirbhays costing 3-5 crore each. No risk to ac or precious pilot. even if one plane gets taken out that would be more "ghate ka sauda" than 100 CMs.

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 26 Jul 2010 18:59

^^^^This rather sounds like why make aircraft at all? Why not use MLRS, cruise missiles , conventional artillery for land attack and SAMS for air defence? Bro, I don't think it works the way you mentioned!