PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

naird · Post by **naird** » 26 Jul 2010 23:02

shiv wrote: Saar this is a highly Paki conclusion - with respect and I am no sure how many histories or air warfare you ahev read and how many autobiographies.

Have you read Pakistani General Javid Nasir's assessment of Indian morale before Kargil?

Have you read what Gen Ayub Khan said about Hindus "In general a sharp blow at the right time and place will make the Hindu run"

Your statement reeks of that view. Since Pakistani generals believed that I suppose one is allowed to believe it if he wants - but I don't.

Saar -- This is not a paki view -- Pakis are still thinking about attacking IAF fighters with stingers but thats besides the point.

The view point was echoed in a Military channel documentary on how Future USAF air wars will be fought ! The program invited many of previous USAF pilots , F22 program people and retired Pentagon associates ! Instead of Mig 21 -- They simulated the exact scenario with Mig29 and Su 30. Since PAK FA was not revealed when the show was made, the russian stealth fighter in this case was shown as Berkut -- However Yankees depicted this scenario in their favour since they were able to track Berkut albeit a bit late.

Program showed how F22 fighters will be the first one to enter air combat to achieve air superiority -- Followed by F35 fighters to attack vital air ground targets in the wee hours of campaign. F22 was always shown to be the omni present -- tasked with engaging any enemy fighters.

Saar -- I havent read any books from Paki general -- the only thing close -- was account from Air Comm Kaiser Tufail -- a very good read i suppose. My limited knowledge that i gather is mostly from documentaries (military channel) and chating with retired USAF pilots.
I dont know whether we receive Military channel in India.

naird · Post by **naird** » 26 Jul 2010 23:09

Manish_Sharma wrote:
Wouldn't it be easier to make a 1 Ton CM like Nirbhay more stealthy than a 30 ton plane like raptor or pakfa? Instead to sending in a 200 million $ plane you can pump in Brahmos and Nirbhays costing 3-5 crore each. No risk to ac or precious pilot. even if one plane gets taken out that would be more "ghate ka sauda" than 100 CMs.

I dont know the answer Manish -- all i can do is speculate.

Maybe cost is determinant -- since you cannot mass produce these things. Further if a cruise missile is supposed to be accurate -- it needs to have certain things which will betray its rcs. Further cruise missiles will not be able to support troops.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 27 Jul 2010 00:11

This is going to take time. MCA FOC time.

naird wrote: Saar -- This is not a paki view -- Pakis are still thinking about attacking IAF fighters with stingers but thats besides the point.

Please re-read Shiv-saar's point. he is not talking about the tactical level thinking of pakis.

I usually trust anything that a TV program tells me about military affairs. There is that warm truthy feeling to it that you cant get anywhere else. F22's psoriasis issues, downtime for overall douching etc are just minor irritants that an omnipotent nation like US can fix in a jiffy.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 27 Jul 2010 01:54

I feel we shouldn't discount the F-22 so easily. Its list of capabilities is pretty long. You might call me a fanboy (I wouldn't mind it this time) but the F-22 is the benchmark of stealth even today! On top of that it's A2A capabilities might not be as top notch as the Su-35BM/S, but it is almost there. Avionics-wise it is second to the F-35/Pak-FA, but it is the only plane which has been operational with 5th gen avionics for the past decade. That gives the pilots/strategist/tacticians that headway to have devised the fighting/attacking/formation/breakaway strategies (can't emphasize enough on this). Putting all that together, F-22, in my opinion, is still the fighter to beat in the air. The Pak-FA is getting there, but all the expert analysis/reports that I have read till now and the state at which the Pak-FA is at the moment, a 2-on-2 between the Pak-FA and the F-22 could go either way, this inspite of the fact that the Pak-FA has been designed 1.5 decades later, taking into account all lessons learnt on the F-22! Goes to show how advanced the F-22 was for its time and even now.

The F-22's problem would indeed be its uptime during combat. That is where the Pak-FA would score. But the Pak-FA's engines-not yet ready, hind-portion not yet ready(at least no news in open source), engine exhausts (not sure whether it will be even circular or rectangular), AESA not yet there (at least very far from mature), OLS (needs better housing) ... If there is a war in 2015/16, would a pilot on the Pak-FA be confident against the pilot on a F-22 (whose flying tactics would have evolved over at least the last decade)?

The fact is that we are still catching up, and operationally close to a decade behind. Lets rejoice the newborn Pak-FA, and rejoice the fact that we would be one of the co-developers (though frankly, I don't know what we would contribute technologically). But lets not start dishing a revered platform.

Kanan · Post by **Kanan** » 27 Jul 2010 06:31

I feel we shouldn't discount the F-22 so easily. Its list of capabilities is pretty long. You might call me a fanboy (I wouldn't mind it this time) but the F-22 is the benchmark of stealth even today!

^I would agree with you, bhai!

All I am saying is it wouldn't be a cake walk for F-22s against Rambha! it would depend a lot o pilot skills! Of course, any fight is in favour of F-22 but we do have a chance if we play to our strengths!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jul 2010 07:45

I have started a discussion on

"Shooting down the F 22 Raptor" at the link below.

Please feel free to post any ideas
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 92#p911792

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 27 Jul 2010 11:49

Kanan wrote:
I feel we shouldn't discount the F-22 so easily. Its list of capabilities is pretty long. You might call me a fanboy (I wouldn't mind it this time) but the F-22 is the benchmark of stealth even today!
^I would agree with you, bhai! All I am saying is it wouldn't be a cake walk for F-22s against Rambha! it would depend a lot o pilot skills! Of course, any fight is in favour of F-22 but we do have a chance if we play to our strengths!

No it wouldn't be a cake walk. However, the odds would be stacked against our Rambha. And that is a fact. I mean I don't think Rambha will be blown out of the sky before knowing what hit it. It will come down to WVR. And most probably the F-22 wouldn't fire one missile, it would fire a salvo. The problem is that Rambha would be on the defensive before they both get into the dogfight. And The F-22 would match the Su-30 in maneuverability. Actually, if you keep nationalism aside, the F-22 would be more nimble owing to it's superior TWR.

But as you might be aware the dogfights, are dictated by situations, The Rambha might pick up the back of the F-22, The F-22 might be low on fuel, The F-22 might have used some of its missiles, the F-22 is outnumbered (you know a lot of places put the odds of F-22: Su-30 at 4:1. but I don't think a F-22 pilot would like to go up against 2 Su-30s and for good reason).

Having said all that the Su-30 pilot would be very jittery against a F-22.

P.S. Shiv ji thanks for creating the space to discuss this.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Jul 2010 13:52

The F-22 at $300 million apiece is simply unafordable even for the most developed nations,which is why the inferior JSF is being touted for US allies.But even this warbird comes in at around half that price simply too costly to be acquired in large numbers.The PAK-FA is expected to be at about twice the cost of a Flanker,or at the most 1/3rd that of an F-22 which will be simply irresistable for Russia,India and "old friends",nations operating Soviet era and Russian aircraft.The success of the Flanker will in all probability be repeated with the PAK-FA when it arrives as many nations will want a mix of cutting edge fighters for air superiority/dominance,plus the main inventory being of affordable multi-role fighters.With close to 300 SU-30MKIs (upgraded too) to be in servcice with the IAF,one can expect at least 120+ 5th-gen fighters to also be acquired by the IAF,final numbers depending upon the success of the LCA MK-2 and the confirmed service capabilities that the MMRCA will bring with it.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 27 Jul 2010 14:04

Only problem is I expect the persons who bought SU-30MKK to the North of India will also being eyeing a Purchase.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Jul 2010 14:48

PAK-FA will be shown at MAKS-2011

Russia’s fifth-generation aircraft will take part in demonstration flights at the MAKS-2011 airshow in Zhukovsky, General Director of both Sukhoi and MIG companies Mikhail Pogosyan told a press conference at the Farnborough airshow 2010.

“I think you will see how a fifth-generation aircraft is flying at the MAKS show next year,” Pogosyan said.

The Russian fifth-generation aircraft will cost cheaper than its foreign analogs, he said.

“The price for our airplane will be much lower than that of analogous airplanes offered by our foreign rivals,” he said.

The aircraft will be more expensive than a fourth-generation aircraft due to a large amount of electronics and modern equipment being used, but its price will be affordable for the Russian Defense Ministry, Pogosyan said. “Its tactical efficiency is three times higher than that of a fourth-generation aircraft,” Pogosyan said.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 27 Jul 2010 15:25

Its not a pleasant thought for any jingo including me, but yes the Su-30MKI is thoroughly outmatched, unless circumstances are extraordinarily favourable eg. multiple ground based long wavelength radars enabling the MKI pilot to get a drop on the F-22. So unless its going up against the PAK-FA most engagements will be, if not cakewalks then at least heavily tilted in the Raptor's favour.

In Alaska, the F-22 achieved an unprecedented 144:0 kill ratio in the first week of Northern Edge. "In the first week of the fight, the preponderance of engagements were beyond visual range. In the second week they got into the merge and took a couple of shots," says Lawson, pointing out that the pilots averaged less than 100h on the aircraft. The final tally was 80:1.
Northern Edge included an air-to-air mission involving a "blue" team of 24 F-15Cs, eight F-22s and two F-15Es against 40 F-16s and F/A-18s that were allowed to regenerate to produce a total "red" air force of 103 aircraft.
The USAF says the blue team was able to achieve an 83:1 kill ratio, losing one F-15. Over the two-week exercise, the F-22 accounted for 30% of the blue force and 49% of kills.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... -f-22.html

Inside the War Games for U.S. Air Force Fighter Pilots

Brenton (call sign "Gripper") has flown the F-16 for 20 years and has close to 4000 hours, including 750 hours of combat. He is also a former Weapons School instructor pilot at Nellis, the same program in which the 174th today is testing its mettle against the Raptor. He doesn't like to lose, but against the F-22 he has little choice. "Fighter pilots are competitive by nature. When the F-22 first became operational, most F-16 and F-15 pilots relished the challenge of going up against it," he says. "I know I did. That is, until I actually did it and discovered how humbling an experience it really was."

No U.S. airplane—or any other in the world—can match the F-22 in a dogfight during combat training. To get experience in realistic battle conditions, Raptor pilots—always the Blue Team— are training with U.S. pilots who serve as adversaries, or "Red Teams." Last week, Raptor pilots finished training against Navy F-15s and F/A-18 Super Hornets in Japan. From February through April, Nellis hosts F-22s at the 2009 Red Flag wargames, a six-week, multinational training exercise held at Eielson Air Force Base in Alaska and at Nellis.

F-22s dominate at Red Flag as well. Red Teams flying F-16s and F-15s take them on. Those who train to be the adversaries at Red Flag belong to the 64th and 65th Aggressor squadrons. These seasoned Red Team veterans find it frustrating to fight what they can't see. "Aggressor pilots are not typical Air Force line units. They tend to have much more experience," says Mike Estrada, a spokesman at the air base. "And I can tell you that our Aggressor pilots are getting very tired of always getting shot down by the F-22."

Learning Potential of a One-Sided Fight

"My F-16 is still a formidable weapons system in its own right. But it is not even in the same league as an F-22," Brenton says. "Technology keeps the F-22 a virtually undetectable and untouchable regime. It is fair to say that unless an F-22 driver makes a mistake, or has a critical system failure, I will always lose a fight against him. That is a good thing. As a nation, we want it this way. We also want him to be able to handle two, six or eight of us completely on his own."

Into the Fight

Simulated gun and missile shots are tracked by the controllers on the ground. When a target is killed, the deceased pilot receives a radio call telling him that he is dead. The pilot will often be sent to a location that simulates an enemy alert airfield, where he is "regenerated," simulating that the enemy has launched another aircraft. (The trainees go back to the base and land if they are killed.) When it comes to fighting Raptors, regeneration is an expected occurrence for WIC Red Teams. "We do everything we can to try and challenge them: We increase our total numbers, we regenerate, we electronically jam the environment. And we die," Brenton says. "We die wholesale. We are kill-removed repeatedly and then regenerated, and then we are killed again. The process would be demoralizing if we didn't maintain proper perspective. This is our job while we are here. What motivates us is the fact that we are training our brethren—and they are damn good at what they do."

Link

While its a very fine aircraft the MKI still belongs to the same generation as the teen series while having the disadvantage of a much larger RCS and lacking an AESA.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Jul 2010 08:34

^^
The interesting thing here is that a gerat deal is made of the raptor's strengths but not a chirp about its weaknesses.

Anyone who is not naive here will smell a rat because every new tech advancement in the past has been advertised as the best possible.

So I would take this 144:1 with what it deserves - a cartload of salt. Every story has 2 sides. We are hearing only one side. Naturally - if the Raptor has weaknesses - the US is not about to reveal them. It is up to experts to figure them out. There is some info on this and I am trying to access that. Will be back - but in the other thread.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Jul 2010 17:36

F-35 - take it or leave it

now Israel goes hat in hand pleading for a chance to be allowed to acquire the F-35 aircraft, at a price tag of $150 million each. But it's not only the astronomical price. Israel is told that the F-35 must be taken as is - no changes or modifications to suit Israel's specific needs, and absolutely no Israeli systems included. Take it or leave it.

Well US system is not just expensive but comes with its own perils even for a strategic allay like Israel

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 28 Jul 2010 19:19

Love the last para in it! We're among the select few who people would APPROACH to co-develop an FGFA!

derkonig · Post by **derkonig** » 28 Jul 2010 19:26

Austin wrote:Well US system is not just expensive but comes with its own perils even for a strategic allay like Israel

This blip is the Nobama effect, once sanity returns to the US electorate & the democrats get the boot, Israel will have a better time.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 29 Jul 2010 00:48

derkonig wrote: Well US system is not just expensive but comes with its own perils even for a strategic allay like Israel
This blip is the Nobama effect, once sanity returns to the US electorate & the democrats get the boot, Israel will have a better time.

Not anymore. The global situation has changed with WOT, Iraq and Af-Pak. Nothing is free anymore

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 29 Jul 2010 02:49

I was the the Farnbrough airshow, and got to see the Eurofighter fly (also have many pics of the TSP Thundaar). This time I did not get to interct with the pilots. But at another airshow, pilots of the F15 were availalbe for a chat. I asked them about a lot of things, among the most interesting points were the way they were training against the german mig 29 and archer. He said he had no problem with them. He was not too familiar with the threat of MKI's etc. Finally the subject of Eurofighter, Gripen (also on display) and JSF came up. He was very streight forward. "Ohh the JSF and the F22 are in a totally different legue. They can practically dance arround us. Even if we et a visul, we do not have a chance". We always loose.
That is excactly the same conclusion you will hear from most analyst, and polits. In a fight between F-22 and Rambhas.

Some senarios
1 The F-22 will be warned off from far away AWAC the coordinates of the MKI's. The F-22/JSF simply open the bombay and lauch a salvo of missiles. The MKI might have a chance to excape, at best.

2 No Awcas
A JSF/F-22 flies behind and uses its radar do detect he MKI. The MKI will be able to see the adversary, however they will not see the JSF/F-22 that are closer to it. Again a salvo will be fired and the MKI's are toast.

3 No radar used.
In the highly unlikely event of no radars being used, the MKI has a fair chance if it manges to get into visual range. BUT that aint going to happen.
Unkil can very easly sell the JSF to India. Just sell a squadron to TSP and they will have IAF knoking on the door "cap in hand". Unkil names the price and India has to pay. That is the bitter reality. And that is excatly why the Russian plane is so important.

But It is unlikely that Unkil will give the TSP or any middle eastern "friend" the JSF, before they them selfs, Nato and Israel has them in a good number.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 29 Jul 2010 04:49

Austin wrote:
Well US system is not just expensive but comes with its own perils even for a strategic allay like Israel

Russia is certainly not a possibility. But I too wonder if we could bring them on as partners to the LCA. We could get some of their technical knowhow for future upgrades. Not sure if it benefits us by bringing in foreign manufacturers though.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Jul 2010 05:17

Rishirishi wrote:I was the the Farnbrough airshow, and got to see the Eurofighter fly (also have many pics of the TSP Thundaar). This time I did not get to interct with the pilots. But at another airshow, pilots of the F15 were availalbe for a chat. I asked them about a lot of things, among the most interesting points were the way they were training against the german mig 29 and archer. He said he had no problem with them. He was not too familiar with the threat of MKI's etc. Finally the subject of Eurofighter, Gripen (also on display) and JSF came up. He was very streight forward. "Ohh the JSF and the F22 are in a totally different legue. They can practically dance arround us. Even if we et a visul, we do not have a chance". We always loose.
That is excactly the same conclusion you will hear from most analyst, and polits. In a fight between F-22 and Rambhas.

Some senarios
1 The F-22 will be warned off from far away AWAC the coordinates of the MKI's. The F-22/JSF simply open the bombay and lauch a salvo of missiles. The MKI might have a chance to excape, at best.

2 No Awcas
A JSF/F-22 flies behind and uses its radar do detect he MKI. The MKI will be able to see the adversary, however they will not see the JSF/F-22 that are closer to it. Again a salvo will be fired and the MKI's are toast.

3 No radar used.
In the highly unlikely event of no radars being used, the MKI has a fair chance if it manges to get into visual range. BUT that aint going to happen.
Unkil can very easly sell the JSF to India. Just sell a squadron to TSP and they will have IAF knoking on the door "cap in hand". Unkil names the price and India has to pay. That is the bitter reality. And that is excatly why the Russian plane is so important.

But It is unlikely that Unkil will give the TSP or any middle eastern "friend" the JSF, before they them selfs, Nato and Israel has them in a good number.

I can agree with the pilot. But I don't quite understand your scenarios. They are not complete. Who is the aggressor? Who is the defender. What is the objective? What are the formations?

Let me make a very very simplistic scenario. Lets say that the F-22 is the aggressor. Also the formation is just of F-22 against a formation of Su-30 for air dominance (for fun

). Let's say there are no AWACS, and the ground radars can't pick up the F-22 (lets say). Basically you see I am making the best case scenario for the F-22. But lets say that we anticipate that a charge might happen. So our fighters are actually facing towards the border. First case the formations meet head on. The F-22 picks up the MKI at more than 100 kms away (remember if it comes much closer the OLS of the MKI might pick it up). Unfortunately at that distance the BVR missiles are far from lethal. So The F-22 would shoot 2 BVR missiles to ensure a kill (which is still not ensured from 100 kms away). But now the F-22 sees another MKI and which was in formation. This MKI would be more alert and more closer. With limited BVR missiles left, this would most probably end up in WVR. But the F-22 is limited missile choices. But tell you what even in WVR, I believe the F-22 is slightly more agile than the MKI (I know people would jump on me for saying this, but we can discuss that later).

Now let us think of the other situation when the F-22 is the tail of the Su-30s. Well in that case the F-22 would have to go around radars etc etc. and would terribly low on fuel. That's not at all good my friend.

So if you ask me if what will be the outcome if we send 1 F-22 against 1 MKI some 1000 times, the kill ratio MIGHT come out close to 100:1. But formation of F-22 against formation MKI will be different. In fact, the formation of MKI twice the size of F-22 might get down to the wire.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Jul 2010 06:15

F 15 pilots will naturally say they will lose against the F 22. Both are American. That is the exact image that is being portrayed of the F 22 without a single victory in any air war. "My father will bash your father" Can Pakis be blamed for saying the same about the JF 17? Or the Chinese about the J 10?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Jul 2010 09:15

shiv wrote:F 15 pilots will naturally say they will lose against the F 22. Both are American. That is the exact image that is being portrayed of the F 22 without a single victory in any air war. "My father will bash your father" Can Pakis be blamed for saying the same about the JF 17? Or the Chinese about the J 10?

I believe that the pilot was plain speaking. Indeed the F-15/F-16/F-18 is not a match for the F-22. It is not just about stealth. Even in close in fight the F-22 would take any of them almost like toying with them. The pilot was speaking about one-on-one, and AFAIK I don't know any operational plane which can take on the F-22. Su-35BM/S might have an outside chance. We can surely have a discussion on that

.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Jul 2010 09:36

Carl_T wrote:Russia is certainly not a possibility. But I too wonder if we could bring them on as partners to the LCA. We could get some of their technical knowhow for future upgrades. Not sure if it benefits us by bringing in foreign manufacturers though.

The IAF has good fighter in their fleet in F-16I Sufa and F-15 they need a fighter that can out do both in most parameter call it post F-16 fighter , since JSF is an expensive bird at $150 million and the US attitude of not allowing Israel to add its own stuff inside.

PAK-FA is certainly out of question and its an expensive fighter as well , probably they can look at the new Su-35 and Russia will have no problem allowing them integrate their own Avionics/Radar inside it .

But these are just assumption politically Israel will still ally with US and will buy any shit that US throws at it

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 29 Jul 2010 09:49

Why wouldn't they lose against the F-22? AFAIK it is superior in every regard to the F-15.

Certainly the F-22 must have its weaknesses, I don't know what they are as this is probably not discussed.

This guy is saying that the F-22 will be used in a mix with F-15s, where it will act like an advanced AWACS.

http://www.airforce-magazine.com/Magazi ... ybook.aspx

Oh, and we should take this to the anticipating future challenges thread, forgot about that.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Jul 2010 10:25

duplicate post deleted

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Jul 2010 10:29

Here is what Prof Prodyut Das says about some things
Stealth

BVR

Fighter tactics

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Jul 2010 11:34

The capabilities of F-22 remains classified and even the US is too wary to share it with its closest allies with downgraded performance , so how stealthy it is and under what conditions the stealth remains and degrades and how effective it remains in broad spectrum of RF frequencies is a closely guarded secret.

I think Prof Prodyut Das will have limited insight into Raptor performance and stealth and his comment should be taken in that respect.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 29 Jul 2010 13:53

indranilroy wrote:
Rishirishi wrote:I was the the Farnbrough airshow, and got to see the Eurofighter fly (also have many pics of the TSP Thundaar). This time I did not get to interct with the pilots. But at another airshow, pilots of the F15 were availalbe for a chat. I asked them about a lot of things, among the most interesting points were the way they were training against the german mig 29 and archer. He said he had no problem with them. He was not too familiar with the threat of MKI's etc. Finally the subject of Eurofighter, Gripen (also on display) and JSF came up. He was very streight forward. "Ohh the JSF and the F22 are in a totally different legue. They can practically dance arround us. Even if we et a visul, we do not have a chance". We always loose.
That is excactly the same conclusion you will hear from most analyst, and polits. In a fight between F-22 and Rambhas.

Some senarios
1 The F-22 will be warned off from far away AWAC the coordinates of the MKI's. The F-22/JSF simply open the bombay and lauch a salvo of missiles. The MKI might have a chance to excape, at best.

2 No Awcas
A JSF/F-22 flies behind and uses its radar do detect he MKI. The MKI will be able to see the adversary, however they will not see the JSF/F-22 that are closer to it. Again a salvo will be fired and the MKI's are toast.

3 No radar used.
In the highly unlikely event of no radars being used, the MKI has a fair chance if it manges to get into visual range. BUT that aint going to happen.
Unkil can very easly sell the JSF to India. Just sell a squadron to TSP and they will have IAF knoking on the door "cap in hand". Unkil names the price and India has to pay. That is the bitter reality. And that is excatly why the Russian plane is so important.

But It is unlikely that Unkil will give the TSP or any middle eastern "friend" the JSF, before they them selfs, Nato and Israel has them in a good number.
I can agree with the pilot. But I don't quite understand your scenarios. They are not complete. Who is the aggressor? Who is the defender. What is the objective? What are the formations?

Let me make a very very simplistic scenario. Lets say that the F-22 is the aggressor. Also the formation is just of F-22 against a formation of Su-30 for air dominance (for fun ). Let's say there are no AWACS, and the ground radars can't pick up the F-22 (lets say). Basically you see I am making the best case scenario for the F-22. But lets say that we anticipate that a charge might happen. So our fighters are actually facing towards the border. First case the formations meet head on. The F-22 picks up the MKI at more than 100 kms away (remember if it comes much closer the OLS of the MKI might pick it up). Unfortunately at that distance the BVR missiles are far from lethal. So The F-22 would shoot 2 BVR missiles to ensure a kill (which is still not ensured from 100 kms away). But now the F-22 sees another MKI and which was in formation. This MKI would be more alert and more closer. With limited BVR missiles left, this would most probably end up in WVR. But the F-22 is limited missile choices. But tell you what even in WVR, I believe the F-22 is slightly more agile than the MKI (I know people would jump on me for saying this, but we can discuss that later).

Now let us think of the other situation when the F-22 is the tail of the Su-30s. Well in that case the F-22 would have to go around radars etc etc. and would terribly low on fuel. That's not at all good my friend.

So if you ask me if what will be the outcome if we send 1 F-22 against 1 MKI some 1000 times, the kill ratio MIGHT come out close to 100:1. But formation of F-22 against formation MKI will be different. In fact, the formation of MKI twice the size of F-22 might get down to the wire.

A 100:1 loss ratio is as good as loosing the skies. Few, if any, pilot would dare to enter the combat zone even at a 25:1 kill ratio.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Jul 2010 13:58

The capabilities of F-22 remains classified and even the US is too wary to share it with its closest allies

Austin garu - the exact opposite argument is equally true. Prof Prodyut Das is right on the money and it is precisely because his views are right on the money that the people who stand to make the most money from the Raptor and lose the most from having its weaknesses out in the open are so keep on keeping it highly secret.

So the argument is only 50-50 either way. You can believe what you like. But Please don't give me only one side of the story. That one side stinks too much. And I am hearing too much of that one side.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Jul 2010 14:19

Shiv I am fairly certain that Raptor has its own share of weakness and something USAF would like to guard as much secretly as its famed capabilities.

But US have to weigh the pro and cons of any system before exporting it and if these systems are of strategic value and can provide the niche edge it probably thinks its better of not selling the system to retain that niche edge as long as possible which when combined with their over all war fighting capability can turn out to be a battle winner then say over the big money it would make selling it or its adversary knowing the weakness of such system and developing effective countermeasures to defeat it.

That is the key reason why US *never* sold its Stealth Fighter and Submarine to even its closest allay although British would be the other country who would probably have some insight on US stealth program as they have some back to back working arrangement.

With respect to Prof Prodyut Das and his views , he tends to speak on Stealth as if he patron of the subject and knows all about stealth which remains a highly classified subject.

Countries who have little experience with stealth or understand the subject perhaps better like Russia have invested in modern Metric Radar , Bistatic Radar and the typical Phased Array L/X band types with Long Range SAM and they think it will be effective in defeating stealth again a matter of claim/BS or plain simple experience after learning about such system over period of time by different means at their disposal.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Jul 2010 14:39

Rishirishi wrote: A 100:1 loss ratio is as good as loosing the skies. Few, if any, pilot would dare to enter the combat zone even at a 25:1 kill ratio.

Better to read history.

The Vietnamese had only about 200 aircraft through the war. The US had thousands. The Vietnamese actually shot down between 50 and 150 US aircraft in air combat and that went on all the time from 1968 to 1972, The US lost over 1000 aircrfat in the war. And the US lost the war, but neither side stopped sending in pilots because iof high losses.

I think a lot of people read about the Raptor, get impressed by the totally unproven fanboy stats and think "I would not fly against the Raptor" and translate that into "No pilot would do that". Sorry - but that is rubbish.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Jul 2010 14:41

Austin wrote: With respect to Prof Prodyut Das and his views , he tends to speak on Stealth as if he patron of the subject and knows all about stealth which remains a highly classified subject.

With respect to all Raptor fanboys - they tend to speak like they know everything about it and it has no weaknesses and that pilots who have to face the Raptor would run away.

Given the choice I would rather believe the the Prof, who is a known expert rather than a fanboy.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Jul 2010 14:45

Austin wrote: That is the key reason why US *never* sold its Stealth Fighter and Submarine to even its closest allay although British would be the other country who would probably have some insight on US stealth program as they have some back to back working arrangement.

Saar - do you have a cite for this? If you are saying this without a cite I will give my own reason (minus a cite). The reason the US is so secretive is that the Raptor is a very good fighter but has crucial weakensses and its effectiveness can be eroded severely if those weaknesses are known.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Jul 2010 14:58

Shiv I do not disagree there , there could be weakness in F-22 Raptor and exporting it even with downgraded version will expose those and the adversary can develop tactics to defeat those.

So why expose those weakness when it gives a niche edge and may be crucial edge to defeat potential enemies of US.

I dont know what cite you are looking for its a known fact US never exported Stealth and Submarines and they consider both as their crowning jewel

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 29 Jul 2010 18:29

The US scientists designed first stealthy aircraft in the world in 1980s , used them first in a war
the stealth levels of a basic f117 matches with that of a pakfa (discounting any plasma tech. behind it)
I think f22 is overestimated and underestimated at the same time
The real capabilities of an f22 are unknown but we should look at this aircraft as an example of superior american technology and
to find what could be done into that much volume of a stealthy body, that would go for constant upgrades

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 29 Jul 2010 22:02

Samay wrote:The US scientists designed first stealthy aircraft in the world in 1980s , used them first in a war
the stealth levels of a basic f117 matches with that of a pakfa (discounting any plasma tech. behind it)
I think f22 is overestimated and underestimated at the same time
The real capabilities of an f22 are unknown but we should look at this aircraft as an example of superior american technology and
to find what could be done into that much volume of a stealthy body, that would go for constant upgrades

Could not agree more. There is no way the US could spend that much of money, with all that experiance, without having something to show for. USAF always have several options, and there is no way they would have bought the plane, had it been a lemon. This Das professor dude, has the titles, and come up with arguments, but has not access to any real stelth data. By the way, the raptor is NOT for sale (at least not the "true" version. The JSF is going to be supplied with slightly increased radar signature, even to NATO members.).

Just recently the JSF was evaluated against Gripen and Eurofighter by the Norwegian AF. The current government is generally anti us and pro Scandinvia. The Sweeds offered very very lucrative contracs to the Norwegian Industry. But the Norwegian AF simply conclued that there was NO match. In stead of purchasing the Gripen, they might as well refubish the old F-16's.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 29 Jul 2010 22:04

Samay wrote:The US scientists designed first stealthy aircraft in the world in 1980s , used them first in a war
the stealth levels of a basic f117 matches with that of a pakfa (discounting any plasma tech. behind it)
I think f22 is overestimated and underestimated at the same time
The real capabilities of an f22 are unknown but we should look at this aircraft as an example of superior american technology and
to find what could be done into that much volume of a stealthy body, that would go for constant upgrades

Could not agree more. There is no way the US could spend that much of money, with all that experiance, without having something to show for. USAF always have several options, and there is no way they would have bought the plane, had it been a lemon. This Das professor dude, has the titles, and come up with arguments, but has not access to any real stelth data. By the way, the raptor is NOT for sale (at least not the "true" version. The JSF is going to be supplied with slightly increased radar signature, even to NATO members.).

Just recently the JSF was evaluated against Gripen and Eurofighter by the Norwegian AF. The current government is generally anti us and pro Scandinvia. The Sweeds offered very very lucrative contracs to the Norwegian Industry. But the Norwegian AF simply conclued that there was NO match. In stead of purchasing the Gripen, they might as well refubish the old F-16's.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 29 Jul 2010 22:36

Hey, here's a Flanker shooting down a Raptor - the unsniffable!

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 29 Jul 2010 22:42

Samay wrote:The US scientists designed first stealthy aircraft in the world in 1980s , used them first in a war
the stealth levels of a basic f117 matches with that of a pakfa (discounting any plasma tech. behind it)
I think f22 is overestimated and underestimated at the same time
The real capabilities of an f22 are unknown but we should look at this aircraft as an example of superior american technology and
to find what could be done into that much volume of a stealthy body, that would go for constant upgrades

I would be infinitely grateful if you would give sources to your claims. F117 matches PAK-FA in stealth? PAK-FA and F117 use totally different concepts to achieve stealth from their design. B2, F-22, F-35 and PAK-FA use planform allignment while F-117 uses faceting. Two totally different concepts. Also, please provide me a credible source stating that PAK-FA uses "plasma tech". I mean no disrespect but you clearly know little about stealth and have no idea of what you are talking about. So, it would be much appreciated if you could give some credible sources to support your weird claims.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Jul 2010 22:47

Rishirishi wrote:
indranilroy wrote:
I can agree with the pilot. But I don't quite understand your scenarios. They are not complete. Who is the aggressor? Who is the defender. What is the objective? What are the formations?
...
So if you ask me if what will be the outcome if we send 1 F-22 against 1 MKI some 1000 times, the kill ratio MIGHT come out close to 100:1. But formation of F-22 against formation MKI will be different. In fact, the formation of MKI twice the size of F-22 might get down to the wire.
A 100:1 loss ratio is as good as loosing the skies. Few, if any, pilot would dare to enter the combat zone even at a 25:1 kill ratio.

You missed the whole point!!!

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Jul 2010 22:52

Rishirishi wrote:This Das professor dude, has the titles, and come up with arguments, but has not access to any real stelth data.

What are you speaking of dude. I am an avid fanboy of the F-22. But having read few of Dr. Das's articles, I would stay very far from saying anything that you said. I would suggest that you lay your hands on some articles of his. You might change your opinion.