Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 Jul 2010 13:20

Samay-> even when santions were officially in Place, Khan used contacts in SA, Chinis to keep TSP afloat. 20% of Paki GDP is dependent on foreign aid from 3.5. If SA, CHini and Khan pull the plug. TSP will collapse with outright civil war within months. Besides 18 Billion is without IMF , WB write offs, Military reimbursements of about $1 Billion a year, around $3-4 Billion from CIA Black budgets PLus CHinese AId and Saudi AId. All in all it takes around $10 billion of foreign aid a year to keep TSP afloat.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 24 Jul 2010 13:26

Slight OT. Does TSP sell arms to anyone? Shouldn't the title of the thread be arms purchses,ops etc.?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 Jul 2010 15:34

Dilbu-> I think TSP does sell some small arms, mostly as a proxy for CHina

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 24 Jul 2010 15:46

Dilbu wrote:Slight OT. Does TSP sell arms to anyone? Shouldn't the title of the thread be arms purchses,ops etc.?

Bakistan does try to sell some of the stuff it assembles as its own product to others viz. al zarrar tanks to BD, al khalids to SL. That nothing much comes out these attempts is another story. Hence we should chronicle all their 'sales' as well!

As Aditya_V pointed out, they are also a front for the chinese since most of the products they sell are of chinese origin that have been assembled in bakistan.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 24 Jul 2010 17:07

Aditya_V wrote:Samay-> even when sanctions were officially in Place, Khan used contacts in SA, Chinis to keep TSP afloat. 20% of Paki GDP is dependent on foreign aid from 3.5.

I think we should add one more source of foreign aid and make it 4.5 , and that is from India itself .
I haven't yet found any discussion about India as another source of income, but I assume many people would be knowing that India/Indians also contribute directly/indirectly to paki fazaya , and that's TRUE , its 4.5 not just 3.5...

I think activities of (saved) D company in India from pakistan do contribute to their GDP

like fake drugs,currency, and investment in some businesses in India as well as in pakistan,

they get weapons from china only because of India ,
they get extra money from usa ,alleging that India is threatening an all out conventional war

Till 26/11 their lollywood stuff like musicians,actors, were generating revenues from India

India purchases goods from them ,,,,

they have free sea route through Malacca

They get huge quantity of sweet drinking water free of cost from India,which contributes directly to their agriculture/ rural industries etc.

Many pakis get business in EU/US by selling duplicate Indian products,or baking their own identity as Indians abroad,etc,...

There would be many more activities by which they generate money through India

All these in totality do make India as a contributor and baksheesh giving nation in paki economy and therefore pakis are fed by us also,so 4.5 theory isn't entirely baseless .

only the statistical figures of these contributions arent noted , but I think it would be more than what the rest of these 3.5 friends do ,isn't it?

pakis should be grateful to Indians till eternity , like jews are grateful to Oskar Schindler

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 25 Jul 2010 07:49

^^ goood one...

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 26 Jul 2010 13:23

JUST IN: US hands over latest air to air BVR missiles to PAF, BVR missiles to be used in F16 block 52 aircraft: Spokesman PAF.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jul 2010 14:06

shravan wrote:JUST IN: US hands over latest air to air BVR missiles to PAF, BVR missiles to be used in F16 block 52 aircraft: Spokesman PAF.

AIM-120C-5 or AIM-120C-7

If its the latter then its a coz for worry

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 26 Jul 2010 14:07

AUstin- If it is either it is a cause of Worry, But our Netas Just watch this happenning while we twiddle our thumbs

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 26 Jul 2010 14:58

Austin wrote:AIM-120C-5 or AIM-120C-7

If its the latter then its a coz for worry

Per Wiki its C-5

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jul 2010 16:12

There is nothing much we can do to stop those US-PAK defence relations are quite old.

biswas · Post by **biswas** » 26 Jul 2010 17:17

^ This. More so we need to pursue good relations with PRC, even to the point where we retract claims on Aksai Chin, we're never going to get it back anyway. Enough with this H&D nonsense

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 26 Jul 2010 20:54

biswas wrote:^ This. More so we need to pursue good relations with PRC, even to the point where we retract claims on Aksai Chin, we're never going to get it back anyway. Enough with this H&D nonsense

Boss, we gave China everything they wanted, we refused UN seat and supported CHina, we recognised Tibet as part of CHina, then we got rewarded with 1962. If we Askai CHin, then Pakis will claim whole Kashmir and the whole world will support.

Measures where we give our rights will not brings us respect or gratefullness, our neighbours will moreover be encouraged that we are pushovers

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Jul 2010 21:01

biswas wrote:^ This. More so we need to pursue good relations with PRC, even to the point where we retract claims on Aksai Chin, we're never going to get it back anyway. Enough with this H&D nonsense

the only way to have good relations with china is to potentially threaten the status quo once every monday. PRC is an expansionist power, the only way to stop them pushing in is to keep them on their toes with a credible military threat. what H&D nonsense are you talking about ?

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 27 Jul 2010 07:15

biswas wrote:^ This. More so we need to pursue good relations with PRC, even to the point where we retract claims on Aksai Chin,

Why should India do any such thing ? So the PRC can sell us more Plastic dog crap ? So the PRC can sell Pakistan more weapons to contain India ??

The only thing India needs to pursue with respect to China is a way to nuke every last one of them to commie hell.

Patrick Cusack · Post by **Patrick Cusack** » 27 Jul 2010 08:22

Aditya you wrote...........

"Boss, we gave China everything they wanted, we refused UN seat and supported CHina, we recognised Tibet as part of CHina, then we got rewarded with 1962. If we Askai CHin, then Pakis will claim whole Kashmir and the whole world will support.

Measures where we give our rights will not brings us respect or gratefullness, our neighbours will moreover be encouraged that we are pushovers"

You hit the nail on the head - few Indians realize how unprepared you are with respect to China. In general conciliatory approach towards China, Pak and Bangladesh will get you no where - be prepared to HAMMER them if they ask for it. No concessions and no favors.

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 27 Jul 2010 15:56

Pakistan to produce fast attack Naval warships

M. Naeem

Islamabad—Pakistan is going to enter in the realm of shipbuilding as the country is likely to initiate the indigenous production of fast-moving platform for carrying missiles and heavy weaponry, in collaboration with Peoples Republic of China, said Managing Director Karachi Shipyard Admiral Rao Iftikhar on Thursday.

Briefing the Special Committee of Public Accounts Committee, the Managing Director said first fast attack craft is being constructed in China while another one would be built in Pakistan that would take two-year time, and for this purpose Karachi Shipyard company has given RS200 million. Rao Iftikhar said

under the contract signed between the two states, another two such crafts would be constructed later. “It would be a healthy addition in the naval fleet. The frigate p 22 would help the Pakistan’s naval forces to face the upcoming challenges during war times,” he said.

He told the committee that due to efficient policies and economic management the Karachi Shipyard has earned a profit worth Rs 400 million. He said Pakistan has also signed a 20-year agreement with Saudi Arabia for building shipyards: one in Jeddah and other in Dammam.—Agencies

Link

himanshugoswami · Post by **himanshugoswami** » 27 Jul 2010 17:06

Now with the Porkis getting BVS for their block 52s I am sure the TAF (talib Air force0 must be shaking in their boots with fear!! so much for "no use against India".....any teh sad part is that our stupid politicos take all this bull crap like a poodle- to hell with Unkils policies- we have hard cash, and lots of it- time for us to show who is the boss- if Porkis get arms as alms (hey! that rhymes

) from unkil, we should just take our shopping cart to a european or russian arms store.....

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 28 Jul 2010 08:16

Pak JF-17s flying home from Farnborough. Notice the belch of smoke it gives out at the start of its run up and then the black trail it leaves when its in the air...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Jul 2010 09:19

well - so much for the smokeless RD93. our Mig29Ks have the same engine.

the FACs in question are likely the water jet propelled 'stealth' FACs of which PLAN has built itself around 40.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Jul 2010 10:46

The first FC-1 did not smoke while the second one did after some time.

I remember Vishnu Som report on Mig-29K with RD-33MK engine , it did smoke for some time and Vishnu attributed it to the cold atmospheric condition and not a problem with the engine.

Reading on RD-93 thrust it seems to be in a thrust class of 80 - 82 kN which is the same a RD-33 Series 3 class , considering Klimov has a 90 kN engine in RD-33MK and a proven TVC some JF-17 upgrade will exploit the higher thrust and TVC option for JF-17

vina · Post by **vina** » 28 Jul 2010 11:04

I remember Vishnu Som report on Mig-29K with RD-33MK engine , it did smoke for some time and Vishnu attributed it to the cold atmospheric condition and not a problem with the engine.

If Vishnu Som said that, you should ask him to look up the average temperatures in the atmoshphere at altitude at 8000 to 10000 metres and write the following 100 times.

"If the engines of other planes don't smoke because of cold, I must be an idiot to say that the Mig-29 engines smoke because of cold".

The reasons are pretty simple. The older Mig 29 engines had a pretty poor combustor design and ran a much richer mixture (low TET temp ?) leaving unburnt carbon in the exhaust which shows up as smoke.

Frankly, if Vishnu actually said that, it is pretty disappointing. In fact look at the recent "gem" from Shook Law in his article on the IJT spin tests and the LCA spin tests.

Shook Law went off the deep end in that article. Way beyond his depth. He cant recognize stuff even if someone hits him on the face with a wet undie and tells him so. Re - IJT spin tests , he looks at the strakes on the nose and the ventral strakes below the engine and calls them as "anti spin" devices, when in reality, the strake on the nose is a vortex generator (exactly the same functions as LERX) and the ventral strakes are to shed tip vortices and improve damping in roll to give better yaw control in high Angles of Attack. Together they give greater stability in high AoA . How it becomes "anti spin" (that is the function of the parachute in anti spin testing) boggles my imagination.

An even bigger blooper in that LCA flight testing "thriller" in the same paragraph was about a Emergency Power System powered by "Hydrogen" "kicking in " in "milliseconds" to provide electrical and hydraulic power. Problem is, yes, Honeywell makes them alright, but they are not driven by "Hydrogen" but by "Hydrazine". Obviously, Shook Laws' "source" (the same one who put "anti spin" devices on the IJT I assume) could have made out the difference between Hydrogen and Hydrazine if this life depended on it . Thank goodness, his beer buddies are not the guys fueling the emergency power systems. Otherwise, it is goners for sure for the pilot in case something goes wrong.

Someone quick, email Shook Law a copy of a link to a high school chemistry text book and tell him that Hydrogen is H2 while Hydrazine is H2N-NH2 !

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Jul 2010 11:31

I have seen commercial jet a/c leave behind a white cloudlike wake when flying high, presumably due to cold moist air condensing around the carbon particles in exhaust? will a smoky engine increase the size and visibility of this?

vina · Post by **vina** » 28 Jul 2010 11:34

I have seen commercial jet a/c leave behind a white cloudlike wake when flying high, presumably due to cold moist air condensing

Those are contrails that are formed purely from water vapor in upper atmosphere, in cruise conditions, in certain conditions of temp, partial pressure etc.

around the carbon particles in exhaust? will a smoky engine increase the size and visibility of this?

This black smoky exhaust will be present at all attitudes, under nearly all conditions, sort of like a black contrail right from take off.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Jul 2010 13:50

I suppose its a matter of time before IRST sensors evolve to seek out the minute optical differences that the turbulent exhaust creates in a stream behind the plane even if the exhausts themselves are well shrouded. a cleaner engine and helicopter style cooled exhaust would perhaps help to lessen the effectiveness this mode of detection.

wake homing torpedoes use this today - using a underwater optical sensors that looks up.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Jul 2010 14:55

vina wrote:If Vishnu Som said that, you should ask him to look up the average temperatures in the atmoshphere at altitude at 8000 to 10000 metres and write the following 100 times.

"If the engines of other planes don't smoke because of cold, I must be an idiot to say that the Mig-29 engines smoke because of cold".

Well Vishnu was responding to some query of a "brief smoke" seen coming from Mig-29K/Mig-35 and IIRC he said it happens due to some atmospheric condition. ( if some BRF remembers it was very cold/snowy and Vishnu wrote a report on the flight )

The smoky condition was brief and then it disappeared , it was not a smoky engine as we remember seeing in a Mig-29 with old RD-33 engine which keeps smoking from the word go.

I have seen video of Flanker , F-16 being smoky under some conditions of flight sometimes but other wise its fine , not sure why that happens

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Jul 2010 15:42

I have seen a smoky tejas fly over my house, but the puff of smoke was momentary before it started flying clean again.

MukulMohanty · Post by **MukulMohanty** » 28 Jul 2010 16:58

Hello All,

My experience at the Farnborough Air Show with the Pakistani Pilots was excellent. They were friendly, polite and bore no animosity to the large crowd of Indians that came to their enclosure (albeit in the open) and asked questions. The plane itself looked very aerodynamic. It was very similar to the F-16 except you could clearly note that it did not share the bubble canopy the F-16's famour for. It looked slightly shorter in length - may be cause we could only get a front view and not a side angle. The JF's were exhibited with an Rafael Pod, one 500lb 'dumb' bomb. The wings itself were kept clean though you could see it's large centreline fuel pod.

The other key features were that I could not spot an integrated IRST System and its HUD was signficantly smaller than the one on other planes - including the F-16. The canopy was also much smaller than the F-16 and did not offer a 360 degree ( as noted above).

The gentleman told me that there were on flying displays as they were last minute invites and did not have adequate practice on the Farnborough envelope. Else they'd be happy to fly.

Overall, kudos to Pakistanis for being there with the plane. Plus, very well behaved pilots (God Forbid, you had to talk to the USAF pilots - not friendly.)

aditya.agd · Post by **aditya.agd** » 28 Jul 2010 21:19

Dealing with Pakistan, which is controlled by its armed forces with an adversarial mind set, is not easy. It is essential to accurately assess the situation there so as to understand the possible moves of the Pak Establishment. The National Security Advisor Shiv Shankar Menon, who is privy to all intelligence inputs as well as the interrogation reports of Kasab and David Headley, had rightly assessed that it is the existence of a deep nexus between the Pak based terrorist groups and the Pak Establishment which is making it difficult for India to deal with the problem of terrorism. He further remarked that India had a clearer picture of the terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan and the system that supports terrorism in that country. He also assessed that the nexus would not be broken soon, indicating that Pakistan would continue to encourage terror groups against India. This assessment is based on the ground realties and needs to be taken seriously.

sum · Post by **sum** » 28 Jul 2010 21:26

He also assessed that the nexus would not be broken soon, indicating that Pakistan would continue to encourage terror groups against India. This assessment is based on the ground realties and needs to be taken seriously.

Who has to take this assessment seriously?

The GoI only seems to be assessing lots of stuff and doing diddly-squat about it...

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 29 Jul 2010 10:49

Singha wrote:well - so much for the smokeless RD93. our Mig29Ks have the same engine.

the FACs in question are likely the water jet propelled 'stealth' FACs of which PLAN has built itself around 40.

Don't they use the RD-33 engines?

archan · Post by **archan** » 30 Jul 2010 07:28

aditya.agd, please check your PM inbox.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 30 Jul 2010 08:18

US delivers sophisticated missiles for F-16 to Pakistan

Yes this will definitely help fight terrorists..

"The induction of these 'beyond visual range missiles' in the PAF's inventory marks the achievement of another major milestone in the air force's developmental plan and "bolsters its defensive capabilities manifold," said an official statement.

The capability also brings PAF at par with other modern air forces in terms of sophistication of its air-to-air arsenal, the statement said. This is the first time the PAF has inducted BVR missiles.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 30 Jul 2010 12:47

Wasnt this expected? Khan will give them anything as long as they seve or at least pretend to serve khan's interest.

Looks like the govt has accepted it as the ground reality and has already given up. No protests or statement of any kind on such bakhsheesh!

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 31 Jul 2010 07:49

Article in June ACM on TSPAF:

http://ifile.it/tdozrb2/TSPAF.zip

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Jul 2010 08:21

thanks for the upload. the article mentions they are working on putting AAR probes on the Mirage first and JF17 next.

I think in event of war, they would like to base all their strike a/c in the rear (mirage and jf17), while nearer airbases will be air defence. the refuelers could also accompany the mirages on special missions like bombing goa, kochi, bangalore(kerala) for psyops value.

afaik there is no refueling probe for F16 in service yet hence the Midas with its hoses cannot refuel the f16. but using the effort for F16-IN , LM could turn around and sell that to the pakis.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 31 Jul 2010 08:47

Singha wrote:thanks for the upload. the article mentions they are working on putting AAR probes on the Mirage first and JF17 next.

I think in event of war, they would like to base all their strike a/c in the rear (mirage and jf17), while nearer airbases will be air defence. the refuelers could also accompany the mirages on special missions like bombing goa, kochi, bangalore(kerala) for psyops value.

afaik there is no refueling probe for F16 in service yet hence the Midas with its hoses cannot refuel the f16. but using the effort for F16-IN , LM could turn around and sell that to the pakis.

GD if I were the IAF I would assume the solahs to be AAR capable in addition to bandar and mirages.

What this effectively means is that it throws the wider arabian sea open for the TSPAF with the Midas accompanying strike packages. The geographical depth of tsp is such that even if they do base their a/cs towards the rear they are still wide open for strikes by CMs and other long range ASM that the IAF now employs right from the Kh 59s to the Popeyes, air launched brahmos, up coming nirbhay ityadi.

I think from the IAF perspective this makes an even more solid case for the need of the ks 172 for the rambha as these aar platforms need to become prime targets after the erieyes....

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Jul 2010 09:57

good shore based 3D radars along the west coast to surveil anything flying out of pakistan right upto makran is also a necessity.

a ks172/K37 style missile suitable for targeting LRMP/AEW/AAR ac from a very long range is a good thing...these assets are few
in number , costly and nobody wants to lose out to a cheap $2 mil missile. ideally the missiles should be stealth and use active
homing -cum- IIR -cum- ARM seekers only in last phase...relying on passive homing and going active only when its a must.

http://geimint.blogspot.com/2007/05/bey ... s-172.html

perhaps some of our Flankers accompanied by dedicated ELINT birds and K37 payload can hunt down these high value assets
even over land. would have preferred something like the Mig-31BM for its greater sprint speed and ceiling but cant have
everything.

the enemy must be forced to constantly scurry around in the interior of tibet, SW china and pakistan just to survive and
be kept under pressure on a 24x7 basis.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 02 Aug 2010 04:25

Pak has as much fissile material as India: Report

NEW DELHI: Pakistan may already have not just more nuclear warheads than India but also almost as much fissile material as its eastern neighbour to assemble an almost equal number of more nukes. These worrying disclosures for India are a part of a report on world nuclear stockpile by top US nuclear experts and researchers Hans M Kristensen and Robert S Norris for the prestigious Bulletin of Atomic Scientists.

Titled `Global Nuclear Weapons Inventories, 1945-2010', the report said Pakistan had already assembled 70-90 nuclear warheads against India's 60-80. Kristensen of the Federation of American Scientists and Norris of National Resources Defense Council also said in the report that Pakistan had produced enough fissile material to manufacture 90 more warheads.

According to the report, India has fissile material to produce between 60 to 105 warheads which is almost the same as Pakistan. Islamabad has till nowalmost single-handedly blocked any forward movement on a fissile material cut-off treaty in the Conference on Disarmament saying that any ban on fissile material production would freeze the "asymmetry'' between the two countries.

India, on its part, has opposed Pakistan's contention with the understanding that it possesses much more fissile material than its neighbour. However, the report by Norris and Kristensen shows that India and Pakistan are actually almost neck and neck when it comes to possessing fissile material.

While stating that both countries were increasing their stockpiles, the report added that majority of Indian and Pakistani warheads were not "operationally deployed''. The report comes close on the heels of another report by Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) which said Pakistan had 60 warheads and that it could produce 100 more at short notice.

The report estimated that China's nuclear arsenal comprised 240 warheads. It said China's warheads armed not just its old liquid-fuelled missiles but also the solid-fuel missiles which are now being introduced. "China also has a small inventory of air-delivered nuclear bombs. China keeps additional warheads in storage,'' it said.

The report said that as per the US intelligence community, China would increase its number of warheads on long-range ballistic missiles from 50 to well over 100 in the next 15 years. According to the report, China is also building a nuclear triad which will enable it to launch a nuclear strike from ballistic missiles, submarines and airborne strategic bombers and enhance its second strike capability.

Either the Indian's are INCREDIBLY SMART or INCREDIBLY STUPID

For a change, let's have India be the judge of this one!

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 02 Aug 2010 05:32

Craig Alpert wrote:Pak has as much fissile material as India: Report
NEW DELHI: Pakistan may already have not just more nuclear warheads than India but also almost as much fissile material as its eastern neighbour to assemble an almost equal number of more nukes.

Titled `Global Nuclear Weapons Inventories, 1945-2010', the report said Pakistan had already assembled 70-90 nuclear warheads against India's 60-80.
The report estimated that China's nuclear arsenal comprised 240 warheads.

The report said that as per the US intelligence community, China would increase its number of warheads on long-range ballistic missiles from 50 to well over 100 in the next 15 years.

Either the Indian's are INCREDIBLY SMART or INCREDIBLY STUPID For a change, let's have India be the judge of this one!

Most of the Pakistan inventory can be increased by PRC and its logistics at short notice and hence no matter what India does there will be enough material around the region since PRC China went nuclear in 1964.

No matter what other nuclear powers will bring WMD and fissile material to this region for their own national interest. Such reports do not talk about the intention and history of the major players in the WMD area.

These worrying reports should have been reported from 1964.