Indian Interests

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 24 Jul 2010 23:30

^^^^
There is a truck load of assumption that onlee he understands India and the rest supporting one of the parties do not understand India. Is it arrogance or distrust? Certainly not worthy of x-posting.

Shankk · Post by **Shankk** » 25 Jul 2010 00:58

^^^^^^^^No, he is right on the money.

This is not aimed at anybody in particular but he is far too closer to reality about India than many pretentious patriots on this forum who leave India at first available opportunity for whatever reasons and land in some foreign country like America then earn dollars working for an American company. Then they use that work time to diss and cuss the very same America because she does not favor India over others. The same India where these non resident patriots donate money sometimes and thinks they have the right to talk "for" India.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 25 Jul 2010 01:13

All points of view are needed and encouraged. If you disagree point it out in a civil manner. And avoid labelling people, especially elected leaders with abusive language. If not out of common decency, then because you might have to eat your words later.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Jul 2010 09:05

Shankk wrote:^^^^^^^^No, he is right on the money.

This is not aimed at anybody in particular but he is far too closer to reality about India than many pretentious patriots on this forum who leave India at first available opportunity for whatever reasons and land in some foreign country like America then earn dollars working for an American company. Then they use that work time to diss and cuss the very same America because she does not favor India over others. The same India where these non resident patriots donate money sometimes and thinks they have the right to talk "for" India.

Shankk India needs all its children where ever they are located.

Also when the NRIs over-subscribed the Resurgent India bonds where were you?

Its the US NRIS who make US politicians refer to each other as D-Punjab. Not the the RNIs in India.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 25 Jul 2010 09:20

Hope its not one of EJ's sneek attack
Wave of Korean Culture Hits Nagaland
[youtube]4jaG2702hwI&feature=player_embedded#![/youtube]

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 26 Jul 2010 06:05

US, UK citizens staying illegally pose threat too

That many Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are staying illegally in India is known to most of us. What many might not be aware of is that there are a number of nationals from first world countries as well who have overstayed their welcome here, for various reasons.

The arrest and subsequent interrogation of David Headley, an American national-turned-LeT jihadi, has put the spotlight on the grave threat to India's national security from outsiders - over the past few years, various police agencies have booked foreigners from more than 45 countries living illegally in India.

Information compiled by the Union home ministry shows that in 2008, 65,149 foreign nationals were found living in India even after their visas had expired. The same year, 13,995 foreigners had to be deported from the country. The figures for 2009 are still being compiled.

What comes as a big surprise is that a few thousand citizens from several first world countries like the US, UK, New Zealand, Germany and even Japan and South Korea are living illegally in India. The list also included 479 Chinese.

"Not all of them may be as innocent as it seems. It is not enough to say that they stayed on with friends or relatives, lost track of time exploring India or overstayed a work permit; these are the usual excuses," said a police officer. "Headley has redefined the meaning of India's threat perception," said an intelligence official who spoke to TOI on condition of anonymity.

He said that for long, citizens of friendly or developed countries were not on the radar of security agencies. "It is because of this that terror groups are increasingly turning to recruits from these groups to carry out their work.

This was shown in the case of Headley in Mumbai and in America where the failed Times Square bomb attack was carried out by their own naturalized citizen," he explained.

Police in various states have discovered citizens of Afghanistan, Yemen and even Iraq living illegally in India. "We are a vast country and it is easy to disappear in the population. Human rights people say several foreigners are here escaping persecution. In that case they must register and seek asylum. But as long as they are in hiding, the security forces must work to catch them and find out who they actually are and what their purpose in India is," the intelligence official said.

There is a police mechanism in place to trace foreigners staying illegally. All visitors are expected to register with the regional foreigners office. Moreover, according to the Foreigners (report to the police) Order, 1971, made under the Foreigners Act, locals are bound to report the presence of any foreigner living in their midst to the nearest police station.

India is also now playing host to an increasing influx of tourists, with their number going beyond five million every year.

Security officials insist that they do not want to make life more difficult for ordinary tourists. "In any case we expect educated visitors from the developed world to be aware of visa laws. They know they cannot overstay without informing the authorities. We just want to be more careful about those who are duping the system to work for terror groups or organized crime syndicates," a police officer said.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 26 Jul 2010 10:40

Courting A Quiet Burial?
The CBI chargesheet in the PF scam has three strange omissions

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?266349

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jul 2010 02:25

Pioneer op_Ed, 27 July 2010 before the wiki leaks....

EDITS | Tuesday, July 27, 2010 | Email | Print | | Back

Krishna’s folly fetches shame

A Surya Prakash

On September 20, 1965, the United Nations ordered a ceasefire to end the India-Pakistan war that began following intrusions by Pakistani troops into Jammu & Kashmir. Pakistan was unhappy with the cessation of hostilities because of the loss of strategic passes to India and the heavy casualties it had suffered until then. Therefore, even as he reluctantly announced his country’s decision to honour the ceasefire, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, the then Foreign Minister of Pakistan, launched a verbal attack on India in the UN Security Council and threatened to launch a thousand-year war. Stung by Bhutto’s abusive outburst, the Indian delegation, led by Foreign Minister Swaran Singh, walked out of the Security Council in protest. The walkout angered Bhutto even more and he said: “The Indian dogs are going home.”

Within months of Bhutto’s crude outburst and uncouth behaviour, the mandarins of South Block, under Soviet influence in those days, dangled the prospects of ‘lasting peace’ with Pakistan before then Prime Minister Lal Bahadur Shastri and got him to barter away key mountain passes captured by Indian soldiers in that war. Shastri did this at Tashkent where the two countries agreed to abjure force while seeking settlement of disputes. The agreement also committed both parties to “non-interference in each other’s internal affairs”. Within days of the agreement, Bhutto denounced it and repeated his war-mongering rhetoric and we were back to square one.

In 1971 we saw a repeat of this charade. Apart from losing its eastern wing in yet another war it foisted on India, Pakistan suffered the humiliation of losing 5,000 square miles of territory in the West and over 93,000 of its soldiers surrendered to the Indian Army. India once again let go of the gains of war, this time in Simla, because our diplomatic corps, now under pressure from Western nations, felt that India must be “magnanimous” and make concessions in order to bolster democracy in Pakistan.

It’s the same old story over the next 40 years. Pakistan has shown that these agreements are not worth the paper they are written on. It launched yet another audacious intrusion in 1999 by sending regular troops camouflaged as “non-state actors” into Kargil. In the war that followed, 527 Indian soldiers laid down their lives to recapture the strategic heights in the Kargil sector. The Pakistanis initially said they had nothing to do with the intrusions and did not even accept the bodies of their soldiers.

Some months hence the truth was out. The entire operation was planned and executed by the Pakistani military and the ISI. But, it was business as usual at South Block. Even before the tears of the family members of our slain soldiers had dried, the foreign office was getting ready for ‘resumption of talks’ with Pakistan.

Meanwhile, having realised the futility of such conventional intrusions, Pakistan hit upon the idea of a proxy war by training and arming jihadis and sending them into India to commit murder and mayhem. Notable among the ‘successes’ of this proxy operation were the terrorist strikes on our Parliament House, Mumbai suburban trains and 26/11. Of these, the assault on Mumbai on November 26, 2008, which claimed 187 lives, was the most daring attack carried out on India from across the seas.

In the initial aftermath of 26/11, since public anger was at its zenith, our diplomats and their political backers decided to temporarily suspend their ‘peace with Pakistan’ enterprise.But within months, the foreign office was back to its old ways. Now under pressure from the US, it said that there was no alternative to ‘talks’ with Pakistan, even though Pakistan refused to acknowledge the involvement of its citizens in the Mumbai attack.

However, as India gathered evidence to the contrary, Pakistan took the now familiar route and claimed that it was possible that the attack had been planned by “non-state actors”. Then came the clinching evidence provided by David Coleman Headley, who had visited India several times to identify the targets for the 26/11 terrorists. He told his interrogators that the entire plan had been conceived and executed by Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence and the LeT’s chief terrorist Hafiz Saeed.

As Headley spilled the beans, it became clear to American and Indian investigators that the ISI controlled and coordinated the operation from the beginning to the end. But Pakistan has shown no initiative to go after the perpetrators of the 26/11 attack because, after all, no Government can proceed against itself.

It is against this backdrop that our Ministry of External Affairs, prodded by the Americans, set the stage for resumption of ‘talks’ and the first meeting of the Foreign Ministers of the two countries in Islamabad recently. As expected, nothing came of these parleys. The only outcome was Pakistan Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi aping his infamous predecessor and displaying singular lack of etiquette during Mr SM Krishna’s visit. However, despite the snub, the Ministry of External Affairs reiterated its commitment to ‘talks’ and even declared that it looked forward to the next meeting of the two Foreign Ministers in India later this year.

India’s humiliation did not end here. Some days after his return to New Delhi, Mr Krishna joined his Pakistani counterpart in berating our Home Secretary, Mr GK Pillai, for publicising the details of Headley’s interrogation and for saying that the ISI controlled and coordinated the 26/11 attacks from the beginning to the end. Is self-flagellation the cornerstone of our foreign policy?

It is unlikely that there is another department of the Government which is so completely out of sync with public opinion in the country. Every Indian who has the opportunity to track opinion on media platforms — be it print, television or the Internet — is aware of the growing anger of the people over the conduct of the Ministry of External Affairs. Who does this Ministry represent? Who is it batting for? When it comes to Pakistan, why do our diplomats display masochistic tendencies? These are questions that are upper most in the public mind.

There is also the feeling that by its conduct, the Ministry of External Affairs has betrayed its incapacity to safeguard India’s dignity and self-respect. Further, as the recent events show, its responses are inimical to the safety and security of every citizen. Unless the work of this Ministry is brought under scrutiny, there is danger of the South Block jeopardising our democratic way of life.

But doesn't the MEA operate per the PMO's orders?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 Jul 2010 07:32

India to chart its own course on Myanmar

India will not toe the Western line on Myanmar when it interacts with the head of the regime, Senior General Than Shwe, on Tuesday.

Opposed to sanctions that the West has imposed, India will take stock of the moves towards democracy and gently urge the Myanmar regime to move towards a more inclusive society

Earlier, the US had said that India must communicate the message clearly to Myanmar

“India is one of those countries. It has a relationship with Burma and we would — as we have [said] to India in the past — encourage India and other countries to send a clear message to Burma that it needs to change its course.”

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 27 Jul 2010 12:28

The level of conceit shown by the Americans is unbelievable.

A good reply form the Indian side.

derkonig · Post by **derkonig** » 27 Jul 2010 16:04

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 222583.cms
MS Aiyer doing his best, with leaders like these any wonder why INC glorifies slumdog millionaire.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 27 Jul 2010 16:10

Idiot, Has he no sence of national pride. Or has he sold it off to the lowest bidder.

partha · Post by **partha** » 27 Jul 2010 17:04

I can understand opposition to CWG but wishing for its failure is ridiculous!

sunnyP · Post by **sunnyP** » 27 Jul 2010 18:38

"I am delighted in a way because rains are causing difficulties for the Commonwealth Games. Basically, I will be very unhappy, if the Games are successful because then they will start bringing Asian Games, Olympic Games."

"Those who are patronising the Games can only be evil. They cannot be God,"

What a nutter - he has lost the plot.

"Just imagine if we would have spent the Rs. 35,000 crore in providing training to the children, we would have won medals in every international sporting event,"

Once again showing his absurdity - yes if only it was this easy.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 27 Jul 2010 20:06

Why would nt any of those frothing stalwarts explain why MSA is wrong? Ok, let me make it more specific. derkonig, since you are a MBA chap, have you done a cost-benefit analysis of the CWG hosting before you formed your opinion on Suresh Kalmadi vs Mani Shankar Aiyar? Have you read any literature on any big-games event hosting? Have you come across any successful games bid (in terms of economics) in the last twenty years? Have you done any analysis on how the Afro-Asian games Hyderabad or Asiad 82 fared in terms of economics? If so, please post away. Same applies to any other stalwart who has an opinion on how anti-national MSA is.

PS: And btw, why is Delhi hosting the CWG an Indian interest? Should nt that be in the Delhi interests thread? Nuff for the joke, but there is a specific thread on CWG and a sports thread, please at least justify why this interests all Indians, please do.

negi · Post by **negi** » 27 Jul 2010 20:22

Stan the question is has MSA done all those rigorous calculations before making such remarks ? He after all is no noob to politics the timing of his rant and the content of the TOI article make it appear as if he has some personal score to settle to substantiate the TOI piece makes it look as if he is against the games instead of the 'mismanagement of the event and financial irregularities' (if that is what MSA, you, me or anyone wants to criticize I am all up for it). I have no love lost for most of the bozos in this Gobmint hence I won't even take sides for as far as I am concerned when MSA talks about children welfare we have enough money aside from those 35k crores to sanction such programs . First lets propose such programs and then lets complain about allocation of funds.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 27 Jul 2010 20:54

^^^
Until you guys argued about this, I did not find the news fascinating. But a small tid-bit that cannot be ignored. MSA served in IFS for 26 years, he was a diplomat before entering politics in 1989. So that is about 21 years now. Though he might not have climbed up the ladder from street-politics, he has climbed "down" from all the schools that politicians and rich people send their kids, plus his family is connected. Not exactly a "noob".

I have not looked at all the reports and literature that stan saar wants us all to study before posting. For the moment, I don't care about this issue one way or the other.

derkonig · Post by **derkonig** » 27 Jul 2010 21:22

Stan saar, it is not about cost benefit analysis, heck if UPA ever does any such analysis, they will discover that all their pet projects are npv negative till eternity. IMHO, it is unlikely that India or China or for that matter any nation sees the hosting of Olympics, WC, etc. as a ticket to success especially an economic one. Hosting games these days are more about strutting ones wares & "development" in front of a global audience.

The issue here is publically wishing for India's failure & this is nothing short of sedition.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 27 Jul 2010 21:30

Seeing how MSA has trouble communicating, his parents should ask the schools to return their money.

To the point, he was the Cabinet minister for sports until 2008, which included the preparation for the games. If he felt so strongly about the CWG, he could have handed over the games to another country. That would have been better instead of working to sabotage the games from within the government.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 27 Jul 2010 21:33

I'm sure MSA is being chankian onlee. He's GOI's plan B for all we know. If and when the CWG flop bigtime and all, we can always bask in sri MSA's remarkable foresight and the putative benefits of dissing the CWG (which sri MSA shall elaborate upon at a later time, place and channel of his mooching). Only.

Edited: Kanchan gupta tweets on the subject - a riot if you will...
http://twitter.com/KanchanGupta

Friend Mani Shankar Aiyer hurled choicest invectives at Suresh Kalmadi, wished CWG a grand failure. SK called MSA an "anti-national".

Sources tell me MSA had hai kamaan's approval to put down SK and by extension Sheila Aunty who has included her son's pic on CWG posters.

So is the cause of the Mani-Kalmadi spat really the wrong mummy-beta CWG poster?

So, sources say, it's really a snub for Sheila Aunty, a message to her that there's only The Dynasty, and mansabdars are way down there.

negi · Post by **negi** » 27 Jul 2010 21:39

--shaheedised we quoted same stuff--

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 27 Jul 2010 21:43

^ wah negi bhai wah. new media spreading the message amongst the educated upper middle class bypassing the gassy agenda-driven old media establishment, seems like!

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 27 Jul 2010 21:47

RajeshA wrote:
Ambar wrote:I still fail to understand about America's apprehensions when it comes to dealing with Pak. The talk about 170 million strong country armed with nukes is all good, but if that was really their biggest concern,shouldn't the immediate policy post 9/11 been to dismantle Pak's nukes and then go deal with the Taliban? I am sure nobody in Pentagon or at the whitehouse loves to see their troops come home in bodybags, so if they do have such specific intelligence,why not cut off the root?
I'll let you in on a secret, just don't tell anybody!

Nuclear weapons are useless in this world. The jihadis are the new weapons of power.

With the fall of Communism in the world, the appeal of Maoists & Shining Path is waning, even if Naxalites in India don't see the things this way. Ethnic secessionists have become purchasable with the consumer revolution. What is the need to have a separate country, if the chocolates you eat have the same brand on them.

So the only people willing or stupid enough to go into other places and wage war and that too dirt cheap are the Islamic Jihadis. Jihadis are highly coveted resources. Jihadis are weapons of mass destruction in the 21st century. Those who control Jihadis controls chaos. Chaos is the weak spot, the Achilles heel, of 21st century managed states.

The Muslims will never control the jihadis. They are the idiots. It is countries like USA, UK, Russia, PRC, Israel, and once India sees the potential, India which would control the Jihadis.

Ever heard of the phrase - It is not guns that kill people, people kill people. So just having guns, is like having a lot of scrap metal, until you have the people who are willing to use those guns. And which people would do that - only those who are stupid enough to fight other people's fights - the Naxalites, the Jihadis.

So control over Jihadis is the battle being fought. America wants Pakistan to put all Jihadis in the service of America. China has its own fingers in the pie, networking with Jamaat-Islami Pakistan and others. Russia lends support in its own way to Syrians, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranians, and others. U.K. is the H.Q. of Jihad International. The Jihadi is everybody's best friend.

India is just a market, but Pakistan, Pakistan is the place to mine Jihadis.

Pakistan Zindabad!

Disclaimer: Just my take on Zbig's mind!

X posted from the TSP thread..

What are the various scenarios if India were to try & control the Afghan Jehadis?

I assume that right now India has its hands tied by Uncle on what it can & cannot do in Af-Pak region, all the chankianness deduced by BRFites on our presence in Balochistan & Afghanistan notwithstanding. However, if something happens that enrages India so much that it takes on Uncle & tells Ombaba that enough, we will now dip our fingers in the pie and you better get out of our way. I believe the embassy bombing presented with one such opportunity but I doubt it was capitalized.

Now that Uncle wants to leave Afghanistan & that leaves Pakistan to have a ball in Afghanistan like good old days. Once that happens, it becomes bloody difficult to have a formidable presence, imo ofcourse. I understand that my thinking on this topic is cluttered but the gurus would have a better hold of things. What would it take for India to have all its fingers in the pie & leave nothing for Pakistan?

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 27 Jul 2010 22:23

negi wrote:Stan the question is has MSA done all those rigorous calculations before making such remarks ?

Why assume someone is stupid with just a lot of verbiage? I know the forum's distaste for commie intellectuals, but by painting a broad brush on such folks, the wheat is dumped with the chaff. I have no love lost for MSA, but on this count there is no proof that he is wrong. He even quotes the 35k crore budget that is the budget for CWG. What more one needs to know? Most of the cash gets funneled into contractors and middlemen, do we need a degree from Harvard for that? Being in the epicenter of congress politics, and knowing Suresh Kalmadi's past antics, who can vouch for him other than a fellow congress-ite?

He after all is no noob to politics the timing of his rant and the content of the TOI article make it appear as if he has some personal score to settle to substantiate

Yes, MSA has a score to settle. He was the panchayati raj minister and he did nt get to bring his panchayati raj representatives to Dilli for a big mela. He was snuffed out. And yes, ToI has an axe to grind. It needs TRPs. So manufacturing a battling point is a known strategy. But MSA is still not wrong. There is a criminal waste of money that could be spent anywhere else constructively. Instead of letting Dilli suck in the taxpayer's cash.

when MSA talks about children welfare we have enough money aside from those 35k crores to sanction such programs . First lets propose such programs and then lets complain about allocation of funds.

That is just being ignorant. In any govt, economics is a zero-sum game. What the govt spends on x, it cant spend on y. Period. Why should a criminal waste of cash be tolerated whether it be rotting of food grains, or mining mafia, or artillery scams, or cwg hosting, or telecom licensing? It is just that some folks here get blinded when the word communist gets uttered. And some blind themselves when the word congress gets uttered.

IMHO, it is unlikely that India or China or for that matter any nation sees the hosting of Olympics, WC, etc. as a ticket to success especially an economic one. Hosting games these days are more about strutting ones wares & "development" in front of a global audience.

The issue here is publically wishing for India's failure & this is nothing short of sedition.

derkonig, ignore the rant by the toothless guy, the message is not MSA's rant, it is his point. Suresh Kalmadi, by calling MSA anti-national, is only painting into the proverb: nationalism is the call of a scoundrel (or whatever its paraphrasing is). Hosting games are about strutting, sure, but it is also a means for criminal collusion and corruption. If hosting games is all about being honest and ethical, Jharkhand should now have developed infra and lifted itself out of maoism as promised in 2004!! Why is it that only Delhi gets to host CWG, AG, OG and everything else? Manchester, Atlanta, Athens, Guangdong, Vancouver, Cape Town -- what is the least common denominator? So why Delhi? Why Delhi in India? MSA in his previous rant asked, why not Dantewada? Has anyone from Suresh Kalmadi and up answered why Delhi and why not Dantewada?

Btw, did MSA say CWG should fail out of thin air. If I read his report, he said, "CWG should fail because if it succeeds, these guys will bring in AG or OG here." What is wrong with that logic, even if one gives some slack to MSA on his ranting? Did you know that iOA wanted to bid for AG 2019 (!) just a week prior to MSYA shunted it out for lack of time? If PM Shri MMS can get a lot of brickbats for making peace with pak-e-satan his personal endeavor, why does nt Suresh Kalmadi get more brickbats for making the success of CWG his personal legacy to the country? Who bells the cat?

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 27 Jul 2010 22:39

Sonia ji should raise these questions then. What is the point of shooting from MSA's shoulders?

negi · Post by **negi** » 27 Jul 2010 22:43

Come on Stan no one here bats for Kalmadi the reason why I don't read too much into MSA's outburst is it comes too late to make a difference (imho of course) , the fckup on Kalmadi's side with regards to managing the CWG notwithstanding everyone in the GOI would now be busy making the event successful for god forbid if it fails there would be bigger goats than Kalmadi who might get hallaled, hell given the fact that even the BJP and commies have come to the rescue of IOA shows how bad MSA has been with his timing and for crying out loud what exactly has he revealed in his piece which we don't know about or which Kalmadi should be worried about ? In fact MSA has made a herrow out of Kalmadi by bad mouthing him at this juncture (the comments on media channels etc show that).

On a side note if Kalmadi is sacked after the conclusion of CWG perhaps then MSA's stance would be vindicated .

As for MMS he is given due credit for all the good work he does.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jul 2010 22:47

Plausible deniability.

Chandragupta, The jihadis to control are the Wahabandis in TSP. Wouldn't it be riot that they take over and declare they will merge with India!

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 27 Jul 2010 23:20

There are tonnes of material on the benefits of being a member of Commonwealth of Nations. In the 21st century, there probably, is more benefit of becoming a ASEAN member than some organization that has roots in Colonial past.

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 28 Jul 2010 06:51

It took a long time for the world to realize this CON woman is a big hypocrite. It was fine when she was abusing India and Hindus/upper caste, Indian culture. But now that she has focused on US and supported the terrorists, now slowly the world is calling her out.

This is a keeper....

http://www.tnr.com/article/76345/the-re ... TY5ZTg0NGM
The Reactionary

Before you guess the identity of this punishing country, here is a hint: it is dominated by two political parties, one of which can charitably be described as having fascist tendencies, since it envisions a religiously homogenous nation and makes no secret of its contempt for people who do not fit its definition of purity. If this party regains power in the near future, the country’s next leader will likely be a man whose American visa was revoked for “violations of religious freedom.

You might think that these are descriptions of an African despotism or one of the Balkan states, with their long history of ethnic conflict and human rights violations. But the country in question is India, the culturally vibrant, politically democratic, film-obsessed, English-speaking homeland of Gandhi, Nehru, Tagore, and Ray. The renowned Indian writer Arundhati Roy wants us to know another India. She regards it as her calling to expose the underbelly of India, the one that exists beneath, or to the side of, its democratic traditions and its inspiring tales of hot digital start-ups and IT twenty somethings in Bangalore.

But Roy’s anger has had a coarsening effect upon her thinking and her writing. She has chosen to trade in the wildest forms of anti-Americanism and the crudest critiques of capitalism. Her activism has led her into a kind of mental atrophy.

Roy’s early essays were written in a voice that some progressive Americans would call “prophetic,” but like many prophets she tended to overstate her case. There are no small things anymore. This stridency tended to make her writing less agreeable, too.

She believes that the United States is responsible for chaos and murder in the Middle East—and now, thanks to globalization, in India too. But this book is not a plea for a more humane capitalism (something we urgently need). Instead, it is an attack on many of the good and democratic aspects of modern Indian life. Even worse, it is an assault on democracy itself. Roy’s status as a famous woman of the far left has obscured the fact that she is an outright reactionary.

Worse, she sees it as nothing especially new. “The rules of the game changed suddenly and completely,” she says of the end of the Cold War. “Millions of people who lived in remote villages and deep in the heart of untouched forests, some of whom had never heard of Berlin or the Soviet Union, could not have imagined how events that occurred in those far away places would affect their lives.” Roy’s implication is that India became part of the Pax Americana as soon as the Berlin Wall fell. She is wildly wrong about this. The two countries eyed each other warily

The simplest way to describe India’s insufficient but impressive steps to combat poverty would be to say that they represent progress. But Roy has chosen to make progress—along with democracy—her bête noire.

The “twin towers” reference is worse than unseemly. Roy expends considerable energy explaining that international capital flows are responsible for destroying the foundations of nationhood. But when it suits her purposes she is equally happy to make a contradictory point, and blame society’s ills on nationalism.

If Roy’s disgust with America helps to explain her opinion of India, then her opinion of democracy helps to explain her disgust with America. From the very start of her book she shows nothing but condescension and contempt for democracy.

One person’s monster is the other one’s messiah. That’s democracy.” Well, no, that isn’t democracy. Democracy is much more, and much harder, and much more precious, than that.

Most appalling, and most revealing, is her attack on the Indian judiciary. The Indian Supreme Court has long been one of the country’s most resilient and democratic institutions. But sometimes it interprets the law on issues of land management in a manner that allows for large-scale development projects, and so Roy has only contempt for it.

When she explains a Hindu party’s demand that Muslim citizens “earn the ‘goodwill’” of the majority, she nicely catches the threat lurking beneath the ostensibly outstretched hand. But even this narrative is marred by her tiresome overstatements and stabs at cleverness. The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) is indeed despicable, but it is not “no less dangerous” than the Taliban. Moreover, Roy cannot seem to write about anti-Muslim bigotry and discrimination without mentioning Donald Rumsfeld and George W. Bush. They seem to organize the entirety of her view of the world.

What are the root causes of this form of extremism? Roy does not really canvas any possible explanations, and seems dead to the possibility that religious terrorism is about more than historical grievances. But she is blind to this point. And because India’s Hindus are not a besieged minority, Roy is both more critical of them and unwilling to provide context or explanations for their behavior. Her sympathies only extend to “out” groups, which are of course the progressive’s “in” groups.

Since the two things that Roy hates most are democratic capitalism and Hindu fundamentalism, it makes sense that she would try and connect the two. Unfortunately, she has no evidence of any kind for such a connection, and so we are given passages such as this one: “It’s interesting that just around the time Manmohan Singh, then the finance minister, was preparing India’s markets for neo-liberalism, L.K. Advani [a BJP leader] was making his first Rath Yatra, fueling communal passion and preparing us for neo-fascism. In December 1992, rampaging mobs destroyed the Babri Masjid. In 1993, the Congress government of Maharashtra signed a power purchase agreement with Enron.” This is equivalent to saying that in 1995 Michael Jordan returned to the NBA and in 1996 Bill Clinton was re-elected president. Roy adds, pathetically, that “the inexorable ruthlessness of one process feeds directly into the insanity of the other.” One is tempted to remind Roy that correlation does not prove causation, but since she has not even bothered to prove correlation, the point would be futile.

When Roy writes about Muslim Kashmiri extremists, she tries to summon our sympathy and our understanding, and explain how people could be driven to commit despicable crimes. When she writes about Hindu terrorism, she merely takes quick swipes at American capitalism.

Roy rightfully bemoans a policy that has become a blight on the Indian state, but she does not broach any of the difficult questions left in partition’s bloody wake. After indicting India for its crimes in Kashmir, Roy writes that “India needs Azadi [the Urdu word for ‘freedom’] from Kashmir just as much—if not more—than Kashmir needs Azadi from India.” Roy is correctly arguing that anti-democratic actions harm the fabric of a society, but her statement also reveals an unwillingness to wrestle with a crucial question. As the world’s largest multi-ethnic democracy, what would it mean for India to lose its only Muslim-majority state? Would another partition lead to a backlash against India’s remaining Muslims?

Roy perfectly exemplifies the self-righteousness of radicals: she needs to see herself as a dissident in the wilderness, a lonely hero.

ut these essays show a woman whose reading and experience and engagement with the world have served to narrow her thinking rather than enlarge it. Instead of allowing her reporting to shape her story, she has allowed her preconceived notions to shape every last drop of her analysis.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Jul 2010 11:07

Is the nation in a coma?
(sent to me by a friend)

Mohan Murti

A few days ago I was in a panel discussion on mergers and acquisitions in Frankfurt, Germany, organised by Euroforum and The Handelsblatt, one of the most prestigious newspapers in German-speaking Europe.

The other panellists were senior officials of two of the largest carmakers and two top insurance companies — all German multinationals operating in India.

The panel discussion was moderated by a professor from the esteemed European Business School. The hall had an audience that exceeded a hundred well-known European CEOs. I was the only Indian.

After the panel discussion, the floor was open for questions. That was when my “moment of truth” turned into an hour of shame, embarrassment — when the participants fired questions and made remarks on their experiences with the evil of corruption in India.
The awkwardness and humiliation I went through reminded of The Moment of Truth, the popular Anglo-American game. The more questions I answered truthfully, the more the questions get tougher. Tougher here means more embarrassing.
European disquiet
Questions ranged from “Is your nation in a coma?”, the corruption in judiciary, the possible impeachment of a judge, the 2G scam and to the money parked illegally in tax havens.

It is a fact that the problem of corruption in India has assumed enormous and embarrassing proportions in recent years, although it has been with us for decades. The questions and the debate that followed in the panel discussion was indicative of the European disquiet. At the end of the Q&A session, I surmised Europeans perceive India to be at one of those junctures where tripping over the precipice cannot be ruled out.

Let me substantiate this further with what the European media has to say in recent days.

In a popular prime-time television discussion in Germany, the panellist, a member of the German Parliament quoting a blog said: “If all the scams of the last five years are added up, they are likely to rival and exceed the British colonial loot of India of about a trillion dollars.”
Banana Republic
One German business daily which wrote an editorial on India said: “India is becoming a Banana Republic instead of being an economic superpower. To get the cut motion designated out, assurances are made to political allays. Special treatment is promised at the expense of the people. So, Ms Mayawati who is Chief Minister of the most densely inhabited state, is calmed when an intelligence agency probe is scrapped. The multi-million dollars fodder scam by another former chief minister wielding enormous power is put in cold storage. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh chairs over this kind of unparalleled loot.”

An article in a French newspaper titled “Playing the Game, Indian Style” wrote: “Investigations into the shadowy financial deals of the Indian cricket league have revealed a web of transactions across tax havens like Switzerland, the Virgin Islands, Mauritius and Cyprus.” In the same article, the name of one Hassan Ali of Pune is mentioned as operating with his wife a one-billion-dollar illegal Swiss account with “sanction of the Indian regime”.

A third story narrated in the damaging article is that of the former chief minister of Jharkhand, Madhu Koda, who was reported to have funds in various tax havens that were partly used to buy mines in Liberia. “Unfortunately, the Indian public do not know the status of that enquiry,” the article concluded.

“In the nastiest business scam in Indian records (Satyam) the government adroitly covered up the political aspects of the swindle — predominantly involving real estate,” wrote an Austrian newspaper. “If the Indian Prime Minister knows nothing about these scandals, he is ignorant of ground realities and does not deserve to be Prime Minister. If he does, is he a collaborator in crime?”

The Telegraph of the UK reported the 2G scam saying: “Naturally, India's elephantine legal system will ensure culpability, is delayed.”
Blinded by wealth
This seems true. In the European mind, caricature of a typical Indian encompasses qualities of falsification, telling lies, being fraudulent, dishonest, corrupt, arrogant, boastful, speaking loudly and bothering others in public places or, while travelling, swindling when the slightest of opportunity arises and spreading rumours about others. The list is truly incessant.

My father, who is 81 years old, is utterly frustrated, shocked and disgruntled with whatever is happening and said in a recent discussion that our country's motto should truly be Asatyameva Jayete.
Europeans believe that Indian leaders in politics and business are so blissfully blinded by the new, sometimes ill-gotten, wealth and deceit that they are living in defiance, insolence and denial to comprehend that the day will come, sooner than later, when the have-nots would hit the streets.
In a way, it seems to have already started with the monstrous and grotesque acts of the Maoists. And, when that rot occurs, not one political turncoat will escape being lynched.
The drumbeats for these rebellions are going to get louder and louder as our leaders refuse to listen to the voices of the people. Eventually, it will lead to a revolution that will spill to streets across the whole of India, I fear.
Perhaps we are the architects of our own misfortune. It is our sab chalta hai (everything goes) attitude that has allowed people to mislead us with impunity.

No wonder Aesop said. “We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to high office.”

(The author is former Europe Director, CII, and lives in Cologne, Germany. )

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 29 Jul 2010 10:57

Yes but why is the writer so concerned?

he already lives in Cologne, Germany- one of the ways to escape the impending apocalypse.

Seriously, in my opinion the Goras should hang their heads in shame for the next 200 years and stop preaching sermons given their conduct in the last 200 which of course enabled them to create their picturesque manicured holier than thou countries.

You know, a pious Abdul when visiting the red light district of Amsterdam or Berlin will get the same impression about Europe
-

That it has fallen pray to wanton corruption and sodom and that the end is near...

derkonig · Post by **derkonig** » 29 Jul 2010 11:28

Another day, another piece of news from the advancing caliphate (this time from WB)....AoA to sekoolaarism..
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/teacher-does ... ml?from=tn

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Jul 2010 13:43

Contrast the way in which British PM David Cameron defended his interests (berating Pak for exporting terror worldwide),while India's Min of MEA,Krishna criticised our own Home Sec. for saying virtually the same thing!

David Cameron defends 'plain speaking' on Pakistan
David Cameron has embarked on a new era of 'plain spoken' foreign policy it emerged today as he defended his robust criticism of Pakistan.

By Rosa Prince, Political Correspondent in Delhi
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... istan.html

"I don't think the British taxpayer wants me to go around the world saying what people want to hear," he said.

Asked if his remarks had "overshadowed" his visit, he added: "I don't think it's overshadowed anything.

"I think it's important to speak frankly and clearly about these issues. I have always done that in the past and will do so in the future."

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 29 Jul 2010 22:28

7 blunders that will always haunt India

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 30 Jul 2010 02:33

Where are the folks who called Mani Shankar Aiyar anti-national? Please come ahead and explain your yakkitak and opinionating on matters you have hardly a clue about. At least have the decency to take a vow to not call anyone anti-national based on your prejudices.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 234730.cms

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 30 Jul 2010 02:57

Rony wrote:7 blunders that will always haunt India

8 ) Gifting Coco Islands to Burma.

9) Not accepting the accession to India of Chittagong, whichw as 98% Budhist. The water link of NE was lost, BD link to PRC established via Burma. Chicken neck problem initiated.

10) Stopping the advancing armies in 1948 and failing to recover whole of J&K.

thayilv · Post by **thayilv** » 30 Jul 2010 05:15

^^^ I think your 10) is covered under the author's "Kashmir Mess". You can replace that with letting Tibet spin out of our sphere of influence. This has compounded and magnified almost all our national security problems today.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 30 Jul 2010 05:40

surinder wrote: 9) Not accepting the accession to India of Chittagong, whichw as 98% Budhist. The water link of NE was lost, BD link to PRC established via Burma. Chicken neck problem initiated.

That should be titanium plated, gold varnished, flower garlanded with chandan and kumkum. The rationale for giving away Chittagong Hills area to Pakistan was because it was accessible only through the port city of Chittagong. I think India should have taken the Chittagong Division in 1971; maybe India could now buy that division or the Hill tracts from BD.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 30 Jul 2010 05:44

surinder wrote: 8 ) Gifting Coco Islands to Burma.

Wiki says,

A statement by Indian Defence Minister George Fernandes to the BBC in 2003, that Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru had ‘donated’ the Coco Islands to Burma in the 1950s, and thus surrendered a vital strategic asset, was incorrect.

Why would you put the blame on India for the separation of Burma in 1937? There was already enough anti-money lender feeling in Burma at that point (much of it misplaced due to the aloofness of the Indian moneylenders) to cause a broad vivisection of what was then British India. Plus, Aung San was pretty much leading the charge there for a separate identity. It was hard to sustain some entity as a part of Greater India with such a bad feeling. The GoI did not help the Chettiyars get out scotfree and just looked the other way as their properties got "nationalized."

9) Not accepting the accession to India of Chittagong, whichw as 98% Budhist. The water link of NE was lost, BD link to PRC established via Burma. Chicken neck problem initiated.

Why should India again be blamed for the Radcliffe award that let CHT be a part of East-pakistan? If India did nt want to accept the Radcliffe award, it should have NOT accepted pakistan in the first place. Instead of accepting radcliffe award in bits and pieces is plain BS. In the same vein, why did India accept a referendum in Sylhet when the Bangla Muslims had demographically changed the place? If Op. Polo can work fine, why could nt Sylhet be made to accede? How about the adverse possessions in Cooch-Behar and Rangpur that continue to fester to this day?

Some of the blunders stated by the author are not even clear if they are blunders. Just a few days back, tsarkar had claimed that Haji Pir was handed over for some strategic heights elsewhere. The only place which Indira Gandhi willingly conceded on the issue of shoring up Sirimavo Bandaranaike's support in SL -- Katchathheevu -- is not a part of the author's blunders! Same for allowing SL to extricate itself out of a union in 48, and not picking up the best natural harbor in that region - Tirikonamalai, and not taking the Hambantota infra building. If Lakshadweep can be a part of India with its Sunni Muslim majority, why not maldives which are a cousin atoll chain? There is enough Malayalam-Dhivehi connection to have laid claim to that no?

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 30 Jul 2010 06:01

See this on Haji Pir

The article contains some misconceptions which need to be discussed. Let me take up the return of the strategic Haji Pir pass after the 1965 war first. Perhaps the General ignores the fact that during the 1965 war we did win battles and captured some areas, including the strategically important Haji Pir pass. But so did Pakistan, which occupied rather more strategically important area in the Chhamb-Jaurian sector in the Jammu region. Although we had a slight upper hand, we could not carry the war to a logical end because of pressure from the USA and China. The USA had threatened to stop supplies of PL-480 wheat without which our people would have starved. China had ordered the forward movement of its troops and had issued an ultimatum on us to dismantle some bunkers situated within our own territory in Sikkim, and to compensate it for some thousand-odd sheep allegedly captured by us by Sept 20, 1965. With the 1962 experience still fresh, we started running helter-skelter since we could not fight on two fronts. With the USSR diplomatic intervention, both sides ceased fire and agreed at Tashkent to withdraw behind the original ceasefire line of 1949. I wonder how could we keep Haji Pir pass and force Pakistan to vacate the strategic Chhamb area.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20021125/mailbag.htm