Indian Interests

[Muppalla]

Stan,

Regarding Coco islands - Why it is not a mistake of India because we donated them after independence? Why is it related to 1937 division? Is it not foolish to go for deals regarding land borders instead of negotiating statu-quo.?

I did not like even giving theen-bigha-corridon to Bangladesh. parlimant should have passed a resolution that it is non-negotiable. Instead we when to SC and SC gave it to Bangladesh.

[Stan_Savljevic]

Stan,

Regarding Coco islands - Why it is not a mistake of India because we donated them after independence? Why is it related to 1937 division? Is it not foolish to go for deals regarding land borders instead of negotiating statu-quo.?

Boss, there are two things: an ideal negotiation strategy and a realistic one. I too would have liked a Greater India stretching all the way from this end of the world to that. But I am more interested in understanding why did people do the tradeoffs that they actually did, not to blame their actions as blunders, but to give them the benefit of doubt to start with and understand the real issues involved before we can even pass an opinion.

In that sense, blaming India for something that happened in 1937 when we did nt even have a real control over our state of affairs is plain absurd. In 1947, before Burma got independence from the brits, 1 out of 14 million people in Burma were ethnic Indians - Tamil Chettiyars, Gurkhas, Sikhs, Telugu mercantilists, this that. Half of Rangoon was Indian. There were tremendous ill-feelings against Indians. Riots happened aplenty in the 20s and 30s. Post-48 independence, most people came back to India. With the Gen Ne Win takeover in the 60s, nationalization became complete and most of them returned. Still many remained there - even today a good Tamil population has assimilated in Burma. GoI did nothing, just looked the other way because it could nt do much. We did nt claim back Coco Is. because we had a HUGE population there which GoI did nt want to see harmed more than it had been. If you want, place the blame on Nehru's humanitarian feelings, but please do not do a George Fernandes and make it a anti-national INC rigmarole.

The Burmans had always been suspicious of India even as they were suspicious of China. For most of India, Burma was that ambivalent buddhist place. GoI could use that ambivalence to do what was best. There was no popular anger on Burma inside India even if thousands of people were mistreated there. The Burmans did little on NE terrorists. We supported the Kachin rebels. The Kachin rebels negotiated a ceasefire with the Burmans. So we had to support the Aung San Suu Kyi-led democrazy movement to get some power center inside Burma. The Burmans moved closer to China even as Aung San Suu Kyi got arrested. With JN Dixit around, in the post-87 IPKF phase (post-91 really), a recalibration took place and under PVNR govt, we instituted a Look-East policy which meant forgoing support to NLD. We were supposed to have launched a joint attack on the NSCN terrorists and others. In 1995, somehow someone came up with the idea of awarding Aung San Suu Kyi with the Indira Gandhi Peace Prize. The generals got pissed and backed off and relations were set back by another 10 years. After mucho recalibration and beyond, we are now more pal-sy with Burma as we could have ideally been. The problem is not in our end, it is there. We can only play this game at the pace of the other person -- the Burman insecurity. We can get a grip on reality and understand the geopol compulsions or we can try to magically place far beyond ideals that are never going to be met in the short while. The choice is ours.

It is one thing for folks who dont understand reality to make claims of blunder and sell-out. It is a different thing for an impassioned understanding of the foreign policy checkerboard. I want the Himalayas too, I will settle for something lesser if that is what I can get now.

Regarding Tin Bigha, it was a humanitarian gesture regarding electricity supply. There were lots of machinations going on the ground with Farakka Barrage. I dont want to talk about machinations inside India. We wanted to prop up SHW in return for a few things she promised, but never did. Only now are we seeing some of the things promised then. Shanti Bahini was going on. There were lots of quid pro quos. So it is not right to claim that we conceded. It was a draw and history will eventually see it as one.

[Muppalla]

Stan,
First of all thanks for taking time and replying in great detail.

We did nt claim back Coco Is. because we had a HUGE population there which GoI did nt want to see harmed more than it had been. If you want, place the blame on Nehru's humanitarian feelings, but please do not do a George Fernandes and make it a anti-national INC rigmarole.

Regarding your above statement, I thought Coco Is are with us and we transferred the control to Burma. If it is just the question claim back then we can question not claiming back Rangoon too. Is there any written material/documents related to the negotiations and transfer.

Added later:
I did a breeze search on google. Everywhere it says that Nehru donated the islands except the wiki article that you mentioned in the post. If it is " claim " that we did not do why is it being reffered as "donation".

[vera_k]

Where are the folks who called Mani Shankar Aiyar anti-national? Please come ahead and explain your yakkitak and opinionating on matters you have hardly a clue about. At least have the decency to take a vow to not call anyone anti-national based on your prejudices.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 234730.cms

Would have been okay if he criticised the games on this count. But hoping for their failure is wrong, especially considering that his ministry was responsible for the CWG until last year.

Anyway, if corruption is considered anti-national, then most of GoI and many PMs will qualify for the label.

[SwamyG]

If India did nt want to accept the Radcliffe award, it should have NOT accepted pakistan in the first place. Instead of accepting radcliffe award in bits and pieces is plain BS.

Stan saar: That is not a practical position. Once the cards are dealt, which was partition, then one plays the best with the cards on the deck. Once partition was the route British India was traveling, then all parties try to extra as much pound of flesh as possible. India did a good job of piecing the Union from the Princely States; the credit goes to the leaders. Yet at the same time, someone should have looked hard at the maps (& geography), demographics and future before "playing nice".

I agree India should not have let SL slip out too. People were too lethargic or myopic.

[Stan_Savljevic]

Stan,
First of all thanks for taking time and replying in great detail.

Regarding your above statement, I thought Coco Is are with us and we transferred the control to Burma.

The brits had transferred control of the islands to Burma long before 47. I am looking for a specific document written by an IAS guy posted at Andaman, which I had inter-lib loaned ages back. Short of that, all I could dig up was this:
1) Burma’s Coco Islands: rumours and realities in the Indian Ocean -- Andrew Selth http://www6.cityu.edu.hk/searc/Data/Fil ... ASelth.pdf
2) http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/lighthouse/mmr.htm
Obviously, I dont trust everything in that Andy Selth article, but the genesis should be approx true. In fact, this paper cites that book. What I had read approx was Nehru did nt press forth on the Coco Is. claim because of many reasons: bonhomie between Aung San and him, the prevention of Indians by the burmans from long marching back to India in the WWII period which left a huge number back in Burma, rice export issues (remember we were a basket case in terms of rice at that time), etc.

If it is just the question claim back then we can question not claiming back Rangoon too.

Boss, we could not have claimed Rangoon and all. It is plain absurd a proposition. We did nt claim even those that were important: Nankana Sahib, Tirikonamalai, Chittagong, Manasarovar. Hindsight is 100% accurate, but it is futile to heap a ton of calumny on our founding fathers. There was shock, there was a sentiment of being ganged up, there was broad daylight robbery, it is a miracle that Patel stitched up what he did. And it is a great miracle that VP Menon chronicled what Patel did (despite VPM's other communist and socialist proclivities). It is a miracle that BR Ambedkar came up with the document that is our Constitution and it is a miracle that we settled on universal adult franchise. It is a further miracle that zamindari system was abolished and a final nail in the coffin when privy purses were abandoned. Noone is preventing us from taking a maximalist position on border issues anytime down the line, for that we need to do it by demographics. Slowly reverse immigrate extended regions. Short of that, there is no hope to change boundaries. Wherever you want to change ground realities, it has to be by demographics (see lebanon, bangladesh, pakistan, kerala, siberia, california, anywhere where change we can is possible). That is why the Tamils in SL are uber-uber-nutty-nimrods to truck with the LTTE oiseaules. But then that is a different story altogether.

[Stan_Savljevic]

Would have been okay if he criticised the games on this count. But hoping for their failure is wrong, especially considering that his ministry was responsible for the CWG until last year.

He has been criticising the games for god knows how long. In fact, he was shunted out of the Ministry because he did nt get much done in terms of infra building. But then that was the primary responsibility of Dilli government under Sheila Dixit and the OC under Suresh Kalmadi. The hard job had to be done by them, not by the MSYA. Why did these buggers sit on their backsides from 2003 when the bid was won till late 2008? Who should hang for that crime?

Btw, you never explained what is wrong with his logic except saying it is wrong. His logic is simple: if the games succeeds, these guys will bring in OG or AG and swindle more, so the games should fail. Please counter his logic instead of finding excuse under the rubric of patriotism. We are all patriotic enough to not have to wear it on our sleeves.

Anyway, if corruption is considered anti-national, then most of GoI and many PMs will qualify for the label.

Yes, a good fraction of the ministers are anti-national. Just the magnitude of corruption differs. A. Raja talks in terms of 10000s of crores, the mining mafia and the nrega cabal in terms of lakhs of crores, and these buggers in terms of 1000s of crores. Everyone must hang. And any instrument that brings to light the undeniable and mammoth corruption in this whole process needs to be encouraged. Why else was there bipartisanship in bringing the Games to Dilli? Every bozo makes money, whether they are from the tru-blue nationalist BJP or the pseudo-sikular Congress or the Mayawati-cabal. Everyone is swindling the taxpayer's cash. And when one moron (SK) takes the excuse of patriotism to chide others who protest the corruption, if anyone falls here, it is the responsibility of sensible people to remind folks that all iz not well in the whole logical circle. CWG murdabad!

[Philip]

The Commonwealth Games is a massive scam,where openly and officially Gill said that b*gger all had been done from 2003 for four years.Therefore,a blank cheque was issued to the organisers to get the Games venues finished and another blank cheque to get Delhi's infrastructure spruced up.Both are languishing.From watching the many channels and their venerable talking heads on the issue,including MSA who was against such a tamasha,these tamashas are deliberately-like the TN supremo organising a "World Classical Tamil" meet,whose interests from reports,were anything to do with classical Tamil,but were a show of support for the state's first family!

Instead of spending so many thousands of croires in just one city,it would've been far better if this money had been used in improving the infrastructure across the country.How many major cities have astroturf hockey fields? How many have good indoor stadiums for basketball,TT,badminton,gymnastics,etc.? How many good indoor swimming pools of competition std. exist in the country? If we really want to improve our sporting capability,then it is here where the money should be spent and not on babu-led tamashas with the various sports associations,who are out of control in charge of events.

What must be underlined is that it is the Congress govt. of Dr.Singh that must take the rap and the buck should stop with him.It is his team of corrupt cronies who are responsible for this fiasco and everything has happened during his two terms on his swatch.What a disgrace!

[vera_k]

Btw, you never explained what is wrong with his logic except saying it is wrong. His logic is simple: if the games succeeds, these guys will bring in OG or AG and swindle more, so the games should fail.

His exact comment was -

"I am delighted in a way because rains are causing difficulties for the Commonwealth Games. Basically, I will be very unhappy, if the Games are successful because then they will start bringing Asian Games, Olympic Games and all these,"

and

"Thousands of crores are being spent on circuses like these while the common children are being deprived of basic facilities to play," Aiyar said, adding all "expectations" from the Games had been belied.

Where does he back this up with swindling allegations? And does he want people to believe that there would be no corruption going on if the money was spent elsewhere?

There is nothing wrong in wanting to host the Olympics if only for the good press.

I ask again, if MSA was so against the games, why did he not hand them over to another country when he had the chance to do so?

[Stan_Savljevic]

There is nothing wrong in wanting to host the Olympics if only for the good press.

Are you out of your mind? Can you cite me a single event that has been profitable in the last twenty years? You want to blow 600 crore budget (in 2003 terms) for good press, which gets inflated to 11k crore budget in (2010 real terms). You must be so desperate for good press that you would forget to note the number of zeros in the money you throw? Or your h&d is so frail that you need to throw all this cash on crap? Even if every Indian got one 100 Rupee note to wipe their backsides with, you would not have finished your budget! That is what the numbers mean in some fanciful terms.

I ask again, if MSA was so against the games, why did he not hand them over to another country when he had the chance to do so?

Have you ever taken a look at any bid doc at all? when the bid is won, GoI undertakes to hold it under almost every eventuality. MSA or no MSA, this random handing over etc is a tamasha that has no possibilities on the ground unless force majeure situations arise.

Where does he back this up with swindling allegations? And does he want people to believe that there would be no corruption going on if the money was spent elsewhere?

How did you conclude from whatever little you read that MSA is a duffer who has no idea of how corruption happens? The guy has been in the thick of things for years, been inside the system, knows all the shady deals that happens, and you would believe the goodness of every man that must have walked the earth since alexander, and how things are all so hunky dory. Boss, please wake up and stop defending filth. Corruption is corruption, whether it be cWG or telecom scam or bofors scam. A scam takes little to see, if you want to close your eyes and walk sanguine about all this charade, that is your prerogative, but dont be irritated when the bluff is called.

[Prem]

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2010/07 ... eetahs.php

Pursued by trophy hunters and herdsman, the Asiatic cheetah was brought to brink of extinction under the rule of the Raj and finally disappeared from India in the 1940s. Today, the species survives only in the remote grasslands of Iran but, if a conservation plan already in progress is a success, that may changeIndia's government has approved a plan to spend $600,000 on a cheetah reintroduction project. After months of research, conservationists have earmarked three areas that could serve as possible reintroduction sites: Kuno Palpur and Nauradehi in Madhya Pradesh and the Shahgarh area in Jaisalmer, Rajasthan.The areas, conservationists believe, could sustain as many as 80 cheetahs, which would be important from Iran, the Middle East, and Africa.
People Hunting with Cheetahs, India 1939
[youtube]NevenDIp95A&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

[Sanjay M]

Here's a good article:

India's Gandhi God-Kings
Opaque family rule is no way to run a political party, let alone a major economy and aspiring great power.

[svinayak]

Here's a good article:

India's Gandhi God-Kings
Opaque family rule is no way to run a political party, let alone a major economy and aspiring great power.

Foriegner should not bother about this. Why should they bother. Do they ask who should be PRC President before Hu was appointed.

[JE Menon]

Not to mention, George/Dubya/Jeb; all the Kennedys; the Clintons - to name a few. Indians will decide when the Gandhi family rule has had its day.

On the other hand, such articles should be dismissed with the requisite arrogance.

[Sanjay M]

Indians will not get to decide on the departure of the Nehru-Gandhi monarchy from politics - not if Kaangress has any say in the matter.

India will gradually deteriorate into one-party rule under this party.

[SwamyG]

Suggesting foreigners to not bother about India is naive and impractical. Doesn't India bother about other countries? Don't we BRFites bother about other countries? It is in India's interests to decide when to react and how to react.

[Muppalla]

Are you out of your mind? Can you cite me a single event that has been profitable in the last twenty years? You want to blow 600 crore budget (in 2003 terms) for good press, which gets inflated to 11k crore budget in (2010 real terms). You must be so desperate for good press that you would forget to note the number of zeros in the money you throw? Or your h&d is so frail that you need to throw all this cash on crap? Even if every Indian got one 100 Rupee note to wipe their backsides with, you would not have finished your budget! That is what the numbers mean in some fanciful terms.

In most of the countries not a single rupee would have come from government expenditure. When some citiy like Sydney, paris etc is bidding for these games, the Goverment only help in political clout and the bill would be taken by the sponsorship companes. The companies sponsor because there is enthusiasm to see the games and root for their country players etc.

In India, other than Cricket, 90% of the successful sports persons toiled individually and struggled to reach where they are with their own sweat. Once they got something then sponsors came forward. Cricket is the only game that is able to establish itself in sports industry.

India bidding for these huge games will always be expensive on the taxpayer because who is going to sponsor these games and I am sure even on TV very few in India are going to watch. I will bet if there is IPL during the sametime entire hollywood and commercial interests will concentrate on IPL.

First India should re-structure its sports infrastructure and bring more professionalism to athelete sports. Once the folks start winning consistently then the interests of spectators will increase and then comercialization will follow.

Otherwise it is just a macho-show spending some tonnes of money.

[SwamyG]

Stan: You agreed, earlier, that such sports events could be used as means to strut around. I assume, that you believe if things are done in the right fashion, then you would support such events. So in order to garner your support for these games, what should have happened? Or is my assumption wrong, and you oppose these kind of games even if there was 0-Corruption, because you think the money could have been spent elsewhere? I am trying to discover nuances

[vera_k]

Delhi treating Gujarat like enemy country

Current headline in ToI. Read the comments. Many of them are talking about independence or autonomy for Gujarat.

[vera_k]

Are you out of your mind? Can you cite me a single event that has been profitable in the last twenty years? You want to blow 600 crore budget (in 2003 terms) for good press, which gets inflated to 11k crore budget in (2010 real terms).

This is the way things operate in India because the Government controls such a large part of the economy. When it comes to unproductive government spending, are the games so different from other assets like IIT or the space program for that matter? Neither can demonstrate a direct profit for the costs incurred by the government.

[Stan_Savljevic]

Stan: You agreed, earlier, that such sports events could be used as means to strut around. I assume, that you believe if things are done in the right fashion, then you would support such events. So in order to garner your support for these games, what should have happened? Or is my assumption wrong, and you oppose these kind of games even if there was 0-Corruption, because you think the money could have been spent elsewhere? I am trying to discover nuances

Boss, the 2003 bid document was clear in its goal. A moderate by any means budget allocation with a timely completion of infra projects followed by a successful Games, with a follow-up on the 2020 or 24 OG bid. Even the idea behind a 20 or 24 Delhi OG bid was that Delhi would already have world class infra built for CWG, and hence a OG bid should be like two mangoes in one stone. My arse. Waiting till late 2008 for the infra building is asinine as we all know cost of infra building only increases, not decreases. It is one thing to be ideal and expect the elephant to amble at its pace, another to actually see the taxpayer cash be frittered with seriously so less to gain. I am all for supporting sporting spectacles commensurate with the hard/soft power they bring in. No amount of love for any sports is going to preclude seeing a criminal waste as a criminal waste. Doing things for h&d purposes shows that India is suffering from insecurities that are just pure bs, and anyone sensibly advocating such stuff ESP after reading the various documents floating around on how cost inflation happened, how cost inflation has happened in 82, how the Suresh Kalmadi led cabal has screwed India in terms of sports for decades, is just being dishonest. I am seriously tired of all this h&d show, the real fighters dont get even 1% of the spotlight that these oiseaules get, sorry, Down with the Games. Hope Indra and Varuna bestow their sagely blessings and an untimely monsoon wrecks the whole shite-show. Even if the event were to be held in Dantewada, DOWN with the Games. And this has little to do with patriotism, little to do with being a sports-freakshow, little to do with anything else.

vera_k, IITs may be unproductive, so might be the space program. But just because someone commits a crime somewhere does nt mean that all the crimes should get a free pass. The CWG bungling has been very clearly seen in real time, so DOWN with the Games.

[svinayak]

Suggesting foreigners to not bother about India is naive and impractical. Doesn't India bother about other countries? Don't we BRFites bother about other countries? It is in India's interests to decide when to react and how to react.

Because other country impact on the security of India and lives of ordinary Indians for economic

THey want to get a handle on Indian politics and inner info to manipulate and change the policies for their countries interest

[SwamyG]

^^^
Then it is in India's interests to resist and develop means to impact other countries.

[SSridhar]

India does not sign the cluster-bomb treaty.

[Pratyush]

India does not sign the cluster-bomb treaty.

IIRC, the ban on cluster bombs is an extension of the treaty baning Land mine use. Also IIRC India in not a signatory to that convention / Treaty, along with the US, Israel and TSP.

The silence from Indian's conscience keepers on this topic is deafening, considering that India has not signed the treaty.

May be they have higher causes to worry about.

The interesting questtion is why has India not signed this treaty.

[Manish_Sharma]

Boss, the 2003 bid document was clear in its goal. A moderate by any means budget allocation with a timely completion of infra projects followed by a successful Games, with a follow-up on the 2020 or 24 OG bid. Even the idea behind a 20 or 24 Delhi OG bid was that Delhi would already have world class infra built for CWG, and hence a OG bid should be like two mangoes in one stone. My arse. Waiting till late 2008 for the infra building is asinine as we all know cost of infra building only increases, not decreases. It is one thing to be ideal and expect the elephant to amble at its pace, another to actually see the taxpayer cash be frittered with seriously so less to gain. I am all for supporting sporting spectacles commensurate with the hard/soft power they bring in. No amount of love for any sports is going to preclude seeing a criminal waste as a criminal waste. Doing things for h&d purposes shows that India is suffering from insecurities that are just pure bs, and anyone sensibly advocating such stuff ESP after reading the various documents floating around on how cost inflation happened, how cost inflation has happened in 82, how the Suresh Kalmadi led cabal has screwed India in terms of sports for decades, is just being dishonest. I am seriously tired of all this h&d show, the real fighters dont get even 1% of the spotlight that these oiseaules get, sorry, Down with the Games. Hope Indra and Varuna bestow their sagely blessings and an untimely monsoon wrecks the whole shite-show. Even if the event were to be held in Dantewada, DOWN with the Games. And this has little to do with patriotism, little to do with being a sports-freakshow, little to do with anything else.

vera_k, IITs may be unproductive, so might be the space program. But just because someone commits a crime somewhere does nt mean that all the crimes should get a free pass. The CWG bungling has been very clearly seen in real time, so DOWN with the Games.

Next episode in corruption, which country watches silently:

1.) Napkin rolls bought, cost of 1 Napkin Roll: Rs. 4,138/- only

2.) Treadmills rented for 45 days, rent charges for 1 Treadmill: Rupees 10 lakhs each treadmill

3.) Chairs rented for 45 days, each chair's rent: Rs. 8,120/-

Not to mention the medicines bought for 100 times more price than market.

[Stan_Savljevic]

when MSA talks about children welfare we have enough money aside from those 35k crores to sanction such programs . First lets propose such programs and then lets complain about allocation of funds.

Boss. sorry to cherry pick your post. My point is that CWG funding is a zero-sum game. If folks make up 10k crore Rs from somewhere, money is being removed from somewhere else. See this report. So much for INC being pro-Daleet, pro-minority, pro-this, pro-that. At the end of the day, everyone despite mouthing niceties end up fattening their wallets alone, screw the minority and screw the Daleets.

On Monday, Uttar Pradesh chief minister and Dalit leader Mayawati lambasted the Delhi government for diverting Rs744 crore from the Special Component Plan (SCP) to the CWG corpus. The money was meant for the welfare of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. Mayawati, who had read about it in a media report, said the diversion was “inexplicable”. She has also demanded that these funds should be returned to the SPC corpus and used for the SC/ST.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_up ... de_1417969

[negi]

Boss that's alright my point was about MSA's timing and more importantly if it would 'change' things. Now you see sushree Mayawati ji (with all that loot in name of daleet smarak/parks and statues stashed away) is complaining about bungling of funds , I don't know what to say.

CWG is indeed a cluster fck and no one is denying that.

[Vivek Raghuvanshi]

One of my ex student came up with a wise one:

Commonwealth Games is about making Common Wealth.

[Stan_Savljevic]

^^ More like, Commonwealth is about stealing common wealth.

[Muppalla]

will the games go on or they are likely to be cancelled?

[Stan_Savljevic]

Short of a massive, coordinated and multi-pronged 26/11, things will go on. And the security blanket is expected to be huge -- far more unprecedented than many such events in the past.

[Philip]

This was sent to me by e-mail.I can't vouch for its authenticty,as there are several spelling mistakes and it seems to be dated in the aftermath of 26/11.Nevertheless,it sounds as if it was written yesterday in the light of the Chor Wealth Games scandal,where a toilet roll is being acquired at a cost of Rs.4,000/-!

LETTER OF THE EDITOR OF "THE TIMES OF INDIA" TO THE PRIME MINISTER OF INDIA


Dear Mr. Prime minister,

I am a typical mouse from Mumbai. In the local train compartment which has capacity of 100 persons, I travel with 500 more mice. Mouse at least squeaks, but we don't even do that.

Today I heard your speech, in which you said, 'NO BODY WOULD BE SPARED'. I would like to remind you that fourteen years have passed since serial bomb blasts in Mumbai took place. Dawood was the main conspirator. Till today he is not caught. All our Bollywood actors, our builders, our Gutka king keep meeting him, but your Government can not catch him. Reason is simple; all your ministers are hand in glove with him. If any attempt is made to catch him, everybody will be exposed. Your statement 'NOBODY WOULD BE SPARED' is nothing but a cruel joke on these unfortunate people of India.
Enough is enough. As such, after seeing terrorist attack carried out by about a dozen young boys, I realize that if same thing continues, days are not far away when terrorists will attack by air, destroy our nuclear reactors and there will be one more Hiroshima.
We the people are left with only one mantra. Womb to Bomb to Tomb. You promised Mumbaikar Shanghai; what you have given us is Jalianwala Baug.
Today only your home minister resigned. What took you so long to kick out this joker? Only reason was that he was loyal to Gandhi family. Loyalty to Gandhi family is more important than blood of innocent people, isn't it?

I am born and brought up in Mumbai for last fifty eight years. Believe me, corruption in Maharashtra is worse than that in Bihar. Look at all the politicians, Sharad Pawar, Chagan Bhujbal, Narayan Rane, Bal Thackray , Gopinath Munde, Raj Thackray, Vilasrao Deshmukh all are rolling in money. Vilasrao Deshmukh is one of the worst Chief ministers I have seen. His only business is to increase the FSI every other day, make money and send it to Delhi, so Congress can fight next election. Now the clown has found new way and will increase FSI for fishermen, so they can build concrete houses right on sea shore. Next time terrorists can comfortably live in those houses, enjoy the beauty of the sea and then attack our Mumbai at their will.

Recently, I had to purchase a house in Mumbai. I met about two dozen builders. Everybody wanted about 30% in black. A common person like me knows this and with all your intelligent agency & CBI, you and your finance ministers are not aware of it. Where all the black money goes? To the underworld isn't it? Our politicians take help of these goondas to vacate people by force. I myself was victim of it. If you have time please come to me, I will tell you everything.

If this has been a land of fools, idiots, then I would not have ever cared to write to you this letter. Just see the tragedy. On one side we are reaching moon, people are so intelligent; and on the other side, you politicians have converted nectar into deadly poison. I am everything Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Schedule caste, OBC, Muslim OBC, Christian Schedule caste, and Creamy Schedule caste; only what I am not is INDIAN. You politicians have raped every part of Mother India by your policy of divide and rule.

Take example of our Former President Abdul Kalam. Such an intelligent person; such a fine human being. But you politician didn't even spare him and instead choose a worthless lady who had corruption charges and insignificant local polititian of Jalgaon WHO'S NAME ENTIRE COUNTRY HAD NOT HEARD BEFORE. Its simple logic your party just wanted a rubber stamp in the name of president. Imagine SHE IS SUPREME COMMANDAR OF INDIA'S THREE DEFENCE FORCES. what moral you will expect from our defence forces ? Your party along with opposition joined hands, because politicians feel they are supreme and there is no place for good person.

Dear Mr Prime minister, you are one of the most intelligent persons, a most learned person. Just wake up, be a real SARDAR. First and foremost, expose all selfish politicians. Ask Swiss banks to give names of all Indian account holders. Give reins of CBI to independent agency. Let them find wolves among us. There will be political upheaval, but that will be better than dance of death which we are witnessing every day. Just give us ambience where we can work honestly and without fear. Let there be rule of law. Everything else will be taken care of.

Choice is yours Mr. Prime Minister. Do you want to be lead by one person, or you want to lead the nation of 100 Crore people?

Prakash B. Bajaj
Editor Mumbai-Times of India
PLEASE READ N FORWARD

[Manish_Sharma]

Short of a massive, coordinated and multi-pronged 26/11, things will go on. And the security blanket is expected to be huge -- far more unprecedented than many such events in the past.

From 1st Oct to 17th Oct, all schools are going to be closed, selective shops will also be issued permission to open. Even private offices/business is ordered to be closed. The school kids got their summer vacations shortened due to extra vacation in oct. So schools opened on 20th June while temp was around 45 to 47 degrees instead of 5th july. The summer vacation was also clipped in the beginning instead of 10th May they got it from 18th to 20th.

It will be almost a semi curfew state in the capital.

[Prem]

X-Post

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sunil-sha ... 68327.html
Shunned, Will He Bolt?[quote]Every few years, India's chattering class annoints a golden boy. It's PC's turn now. Erudite, articulate, armed with a Harvard MBA, he is what every middle-class Indian mom wants her son to be. A reputation for administrative zeal combined with impeccable personal integrity made him the obvious choice to straighten out the country's internal security apparatus after 26/11. But PC must be ruing the day he made the move to home from his previous perch at finance. So swift and relentless has been his fall from grace
With Manmohan Singh faltering, an opening of sorts has been created for the prime minister's post until Rahul Gandhi decides to take it on. PC made for an ideal stop-gap, which is what causes his colleagues to perspire. Intellect and integrity he has in common with Manmohan Singh but he promises to be much less accommodating of sleaze and incompetence. A party where sycophancy and expedience thrive, with performance and rectitude often serving as liabilities, is revolting against a man they consider with a bee in his bonnet. And, now that he has fallen afoul of his even his prime minister on the thorny issue of Pakistan, the knives are out. Fed up with the daily strife, PC has thrown his hands up in the air.
Waiting with open and expectant arms is the BJP. Snaring him would be a veritable coup. Only when led by Atal Behari Vajpayee, whose soothing influence moderated their extremism, were they able to capture the Red Fort in Delhi. With him gone, they have become consigned as the party of perpetual opposition, barely able to win a fifth of parliamentary seats[/quote

[Philip]

Finally,some truly epic news about India.Like the resurrection of the Great Library at Alexandria,destroyed by fire during the Roman occupation of Egypt,the great ancient seat of learning at Nalanda,the world's oldest university,has finally been resurrected.This is something that every India can truly be proud of.Hats off to all those responsible for this and the report of the same!
Incidentally,a well known prstigious Colombo school is called "Nalanda".The name never died.

The original, located close to the border with what is now Nepal, was said to have been an architectural masterpiece, featuring 10 temples, a nine-storey library where monks copied books by hand, lakes, parks and student accommodation. Its students came from Korea, Japan, China, Persia, Tibet and Turkey, as well as from across India. The 7th Century Chinese pilgrim, Xuanzang, visited Nalanda and wrote detailed accounts of what he saw, describing how towers, pavilions and temples appeared to "soar above the mists in the sky [so that monks in their rooms] might witness the birth of the winds and clouds".

Excerpt:

Oldest university on earth is reborn after 800 years

Nalanda, an ancient seat of learning destroyed in 1193, will rise again thanks to a Nobel-winning economist
By Andrew Buncombe

Wednesday, 4 August 2010
GETTY IMAGES

The ruins of Nalanda, the 2,000-year-old Buddhist University near Rajgir in the northern part of India

During the six centuries of its storied existence, there was nothing else quite like Nalanda University. Probably the first-ever large educational establishment, the college – in what is now eastern India – even counted the Buddha among its visitors and alumni. At its height, it had 10,000 students, 2,000 staff and strove for both understanding and academic excellence. Today, this much-celebrated centre of Buddhist learning is in ruins.

After a period during which the influence and importance of Buddhism in India declined, the university was sacked in 1193 by a Turkic general, apparently incensed that its library may not have contained a copy of the Koran. The fire is said to have burned and smouldered for several months.

Now this famed establishment of philosophy, mathematics, language and even public health is poised to be revived. A beguiling and ambitious plan to establish an international university with the same overarching vision as Nalanda – and located alongside its physical ruins – has been spearheaded by a team of international experts and leaders, among them the Nobel-winning economist Amartya Sen. This week, legislation that will enable the building of the university to proceed is to be placed before the Indian parliament.

"At its peak it offered an enormous number of subjects in the Buddhist tradition, in a similar way that Oxford [offered] in the Christian tradition – Sanskrit, medicine, public health and economics," Mr Sen said yesterday in Delhi.

"It was destroyed in a war. It was [at] just the same time that Oxford was being established. It has a fairly extraordinary history – Cambridge had not yet been born." He added, with confidence: "Building will start as soon as the bill passes."

The plan to resurrect Nalanda – in the state of Bihar – and establish a facility prestigious enough to attract the best students from across Asia and beyond, was apparently first voiced in the 1990s. But the idea received more widespread attention in 2006 when the then Indian president, APJ Abdul Kalam set about establishing an international "mentoring panel". Members of the panel, chaired by Mr Sen, include Singapore's foreign minister, George Yeo, historian Sugata Bose, Lord Desai and Chinese academic Wang Banwei.

A key challenge for the group is to raise sufficient funds for the university. It has been estimated that $500m will be required to build the new facility, with a further $500m needed to sufficiently improve the surrounding infrastructure. The group is looking for donations from governments, private individuals and religious groups. The governments of both Singapore and India have apparently already given some financial commitments.

Mr Sen said the new Nalanda project, whose ancestor easily predated both the University of Al Karaouine in Fez, Morocco – founded in 859 AD and considered the world's oldest, continually-operating university, and Cairo's Al Azhar University (975 AD), had already attracted widespread attention from prestigious institutions. The universities of Oxford, Harvard, Yale, Paris and Bologna had all been enthusiastic about possible collaboration.

Some commentators believe a crucial impact of the establishment of a new international university in India would be the boost it gave to higher education across Asia. A recent survey of universities by the US News and World Report magazine listed just three Asian institutions – University of Tokyo, University of Hong Kong and Kyoto University – among the world's top 25.

Writing when plans for Nalanda were first announced, Jeffery Garten, a professor in international business and trade at the Yale School of Management, said in the New York Times: "The new Nalanda should try to recapture the global connectedness of the old one. All of today's great institutions of higher learning are straining to become more international... but Asian universities are way behind." He added: "A new Nalanda could set a benchmark for mixing nationalities and culture, for injecting energy into global subject. Nalanda was a Buddhist university but it was remarkably open to many interpretations of that religion. Today, it could... be an institution devoted to global religious reconciliation."

As Mr Garten pointed out, the new university will have much to live up to. The original, located close to the border with what is now Nepal, was said to have been an architectural masterpiece, featuring 10 temples, a nine-storey library where monks copied books by hand, lakes, parks and student accommodation. Its students came from Korea, Japan, China, Persia, Tibet and Turkey, as well as from across India. The 7th Century Chinese pilgrim, Xuanzang, visited Nalanda and wrote detailed accounts of what he saw, describing how towers, pavilions and temples appeared to "soar above the mists in the sky [so that monks in their rooms] might witness the birth of the winds and clouds".

Yet the project is not without controversy. Mr Sen was yesterday asked about reports that claimed the Dalai Lama, the Tibetan Buddhist leader who has lived for more than 50 years in the Indian town of Dharamsala, had been deliberately omitted from the project to avoid antagonising potential Chinese investors and officials. He replied: "He is heading a religion. Being religiously active may not be the same as [being] appropriate for religious studies."

The Indian authorities believe the establishment of the college would act as a global reminder of the nation's history as a centre of learning and culture.

PS:Two decades ago,I visited Winchester College,perhaps the oldest school in Britain,700 years old.Our late school warden was a "Wykhamist" as students from the school are called.An ex-army doctor,he maintained discipline of the kind one would find at Greyfriars,the great literary creation of Fank Richards,home of that greedy schoolboy,Billy Bunter.The way in which tradition and the architectural heritage had faithfully been preserved was a revelation.Stairs treads were curved,tables had no straight lines.A "new" building was by Christopher Wren.The College is one of the most visited sights in the town after the great cathedral,900 years old itself.The manner in which Britain has preserved its heritage so faithfully,is why it was a great empire,as its youth are ever reminded of its deeds of yore by the preservation of its monuments.In India,the custom since Independence seems to be the opposite,to destroy our ancient heritage and build asinine,insane,meaningless monuments to palliate the ego of despots like Mayawathi's avenues of elephants built at astronomical cost while people starve.Perhaps the resurrection of Nalanda will see an about turn in our acknowledgement and celebration of our ancient heritage,with a view to continuing our great traditions for the future.

[Varoon Shekhar]

A little too politically correct of Amartya Sen to say that the Nalanda university was destroyed in a 'war'. What 'war' was this, and who were the opposing sides? It was an outright, unjustified act of mass murder and vandalism. It can't be glossed over by comparing it to Gettysburgh or the Battle of the Bulge.

[brihaspati]

There are specific references to deliberate destruction of the library and the books - there was no army defending Nalanda only monks. The destruction was deliberate and not part of any war - since the Thaparites claim that the Islamists were "great lovers" of education and books. There were targeted orders to destroy all books and people who could read and write them - it was planned cultural genocide to erase whatever remained of older knowledge except any that will come in handy for war technology.

Amartya Sen has been a consistent supporter of Islamists in an indirect way by denying the role and contribution of the ideology and the theology behind radical violence and attributed all of it to "economic and developmental" factors. Perhaps the price that had to be paid to attain success within the Anglo-Saxon sphere of dominance.

[brihaspati]

If Nalanda was so important to revive, why forget Odantapuri - another great university township - suffering the same fate at the hands of Islamists? In fact almost all the Buddhist universities can be directly shown to have been deliberately destroyed by the Muslims.

War! my foot! Odantapuri in fact is even more problematic for the likes of the great apologist for Islamism. For we have explicit reference from the "victim side" as to the presence of Muslims in the township around Odantapuri monastery and university - who had been allowed to settle or carry out trade, and who are recorded to as having been heard "singing" ritually at fixed times of the day. For Indic ears - the azaan would have appeared as strange form of singing.

In fact the rise of Muslim settlers and their presence in the university townships are noted by Taranath. And the first acts of the Muslim armies when they managed to penetrate deeper was to specifically target the universities for destruction. So the settled Muslims who had been hosted by the native rulers and populations provided detailed information to the invaders and there cannot be any excuse then that the Muslims did not know about the civilian nature of these universities - which did not store soldiers or defensive formations, from before the actual raids.

Maybe it is also difficult to raise the multiple Buddhist unis destruction factor at the same time. because it raises the question as to why all of them? People now may find out that they are all destroyed at the beginning of the Muslim penetration into Gangetic Valley. This is highly problematic - since that means the Buddhists were still flourishing after centuries of supposed Barhministic repression - another dogma of Indian history. For Indian regimes, and even for some I have encountered on the forum, those who indulge in historical dogma or claims are living in the past - and past has to be left behind and we should move forward. But it seems that ruling powers themselves do not believe in it - for historical claims of victimhood are otherwise perfectly legitimate to impose current and future measures, such as religion and subgroup based reservations. Even revival of Nalanda is justified - because it is not famous for connections to "Brahminism".

Where have all the chastizers of "living in the past" gone?

[Prem]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/0 ... 71081.html
Dharma attracts Intelligent People

Julia Roberts is on the cover of the September issue of Elle magazine, and inside she talks about not using Botox and how she is a practicing Hindu.On Botox and plastic surgery:

"It's unfortunate that we live in such a panicked, dysmorphic society where women don't even give themselves a chance to see what they'll look like as older persons. I want to have some idea of what I'll look like before I start cleaning the slates. I want my kids to know when I'm pissed, when I'm happy, and when I'm confounded. Your face tells a story... and it shouldn't be a story about your drive to the doctor's office

."

The entire Roberts-Moder family, goes to temple together to "chant and pray and celebrate. I'm definitely a practicing Hindu." says Roberts.[On possible reincarnation] "Golly, I've been so spoiled with my friends and family in this life," she says. "Next time I want to be just something quiet and supporting." On her family with husband Danny Moder: “The children became the shooting stars of him, of that thing we have. How lucky we are that we love each other so much that we burst into three pieces.”She shot scenes of her upcoming 'Eat, Pray, Love' in India. She is seen below with with ashram owner Swami Dharmdev at Hari Mandir Ashram in Pataudi on the outskirts of New Delhi, India in