Indian Naval Discussion

[Thomas_S]

Dear manishw, when i say "catch up" I mean numbers! They have around 70 subs against some 15 that we do! And all the 15 are most likely be retired by 2025 (these are kilos, foxtrots and type-209)! Our scorpenes will be ready by 2020-22 (estimated) and P-75I say,2025? That in addition to 3 SSBNs and 3 SSNs! That makes 18 vs. 50-70! I hope you got what I mean!
!

Dont worry brother....out of their 70 subs, only ones capable of coming near us are the 12 odd kilo class...and maybe a few nuclear ones ...the rest are all romeo/ming class and their derivatives....none of them even come close to Kilo/type-209...

[Manishw]

Dear manishw, when i say "catch up" I mean numbers! They have around 70 subs against some 15 that we do! And all the 15 are most likely be retired by 2025 (these are kilos, foxtrots and type-209)! Our scorpenes will be ready by 2020-22 (estimated) and P-75I say,2025? That in addition to 3 SSBNs and 3 SSNs! That makes 18 vs. 50-70! I hope you got what I mean!
!

Dont worry brother....out of their 70 subs, only ones capable of coming near us are the 12 odd kilo class...and maybe a few nuclear ones ...the rest are all romeo/ming class and their derivatives....none of them even come close to Kilo/type-209...

Yes Thomas ji That is what I also know but some people are crystal gazing forty years ahead and coming up with pessimist conclusions is not called for, lots of things can and will change.We can live without the negativity.The PlAAN has huge no. of rustbuckets and radiation spewing submarines which are so called 'newbie analysts' never seem to take into account before riding on the high horse passing for analysis.This whole thing is very well documented on Bharat Rakshak itself and flogged to death by the real gurus here but people don't want to be bothered by even a cursory reading before posting.Anyway this is something that Mods will take care of if it requires taking care.

[Kanan]

^^^^^

Manishw, you are so childish that you are outright annoying!

All your posts are of hitler-esque nuts to be honest! Who do you think people in sound mind would listen to, you or Indian Navy chief? The latter of course! If you have a sound mind, Please read what the Chief has to say!

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-no- ... 41985.aspx
The Chief acknowledges the might of PLAAN and sets out a road map but Hitlers-in-the-waiting like you can only fantasise war day in and day out!
China's submarines are old but being rapidly upgraded! New ones are being built rapidly! PLAAn is reason enough to worry the USN! but Hitler-esque like you don't see the point! None of your arguments are based on ground realities or facts! Hhey are rather based on your Hitler-esque fantasies or mythology! Stop war mongering, bro!

[Manishw]

What about yourself.You are not only annoying but a highly argumentative person whether right or wrong.I have just said that crystal grazing 40 yrs ahead is fruitless and you launch into your diatribes.I am not going to reply any further to your posts since
a) I have said what I had to say and
b) You seem to revel in the mud and this is not my cup of tea.

P.s Kindly refrain from using such abusive language.It is not called for .

[Vivek K]

Manish, one thing is for certain that India does not do a good job of defence procurement. AJT 20 years, Gorky......, Artillery ............, submarines........... and so on. What makes anyone think that will change in the coming years. The chalta hai attitude let this happen. There is no path still to come out of it.

I hate to admit it but the dire prediction has more of a chance of happening than not.

[Manishw]

Vivek Ji I totally agree with you.Chances of our becoming stronger appear to be less but hope springs eternal and you never know.Anyway we are both on B.R.F to see that the possibility of 'less chances' turns into reality.That I feel is the duty of all nationalistic indians including the ones on B.R.F.
Twenty years before who would have thought that we would be talking about taking on the chinese navy. I for one never did but here we are at least talking and trying to do something.Twenty years(or less) on Who knows? we might be pleasantly
JMT

Jai Hind.

[arun]

The Indian Navy places two orders worth some USD 19 Million in rapid succession for marine broadband satellite communications systems (SATCOM) from Israel:

Satellite co Orbit triples size of Indian Navy order

[Vivek K]

Manish, aapke muh me ghee shakkar! Hope for the best!

[hnair]

Twenty years before who would have thought that we would be talking about taking on the chinese navy.

It is the same story as today: we forgot about the blue-water threats posed by the mighty PLAN of the 80s. We were rather busy taking on minor littoral threats like that Seventh Fleet

[chetak]

Dont worry brother....out of their 70 subs, only ones capable of coming near us are the 12 odd kilo class...and maybe a few nuclear ones ...the rest are all romeo/ming class and their derivatives....none of them even come close to Kilo/type-209...

Thomas_S ji,

In case of hostilities,

Just the one is enough to cook your goose.

[Manishw]

@hnair very well put sir.

[Philip]

The PLAN is going to have about 70 subs in the near future,both nuclear and conventional.It will be able to send into the IOR at least two nuclear subs and a dozen conventional AIP subs in time of crisis without detriment to its sub patrols in the Pacific and S.China Sea.It will definitely have a permanent stationing of subs out of Gwadar and possibly also operate some out of Burmese bases.If you add the Paki sub fleet to that of the PLAN,then the IN would have a force of about 18-20 enemy subs to deal with in the IOR.Chinese defenc experts have noted that the IN's weakness is that of its sub inventory/capability and thanks to our dear "strategic partner" the US,Pak's ASW capability too has been revamped with 8 P-3 ASW Orions being sold to it,plus ex-USN Perry class ASW frigates.

UNless the IN has a force of a minimum of 24 conventional/AIP subs,plus 10-12 SSBNs and SSGNs,we are going to find it a very hard task to deal with the multiple sub threats from the PLAN and PN.The IN must have the capability to operate its subs outside the IOR,both nuclear SSGNs and conventional AIP SSGs.

[Austin]

The only way to quickly build up the submarine strength is to opt for more 636 submarine atleast 4 - 5 without waiting for for MDL or new submarine to turn up as per their schedule.

Russia yesterday on Navy Day occasion has decided to purchase 3 new 636 SSK for their Black Sea Fleet , Vietnam has purchased 5 of these and they can be a very powerful and cost effective option to bolster our depleting submarine force.

Personally I do not expect the Scorpene to be any better then the modernized 636 and fire power wise the Kilos can fire the Klub with much longer reach.

[Philip]

True about the Scorpene's firepower,which has inferior sub-Exocet missiles when compared with that of Klub's multi-role variants.I think that the IN intends to use the Scorpene's in an SSK role to deal with Pak's Agostas,but those (latter build ones) have MESMA AIP capabilities while our don't! I think that there is some confusion about which type of AIP the IN should have.Some time ago a senior VAdm. told me that the only genuine AIP he knew of was a nuclear sub,very true! The German fuel cell AIP subs are at the moment the best or so they appear to be.If we induct a few more German built U-214s,to replace our U-209s and acquire/use the same fuel cell AIP system on a Brahmos Amur or equivalent,we might be able to close the sub gap within the end of the decade in terms of indigenous construction.Acquiring another one or two more Akulas would be great.

[Vipul]

Government to set up chain of radar sensors along coastlines.

The government has launched a project to set up radar sensors along the country's coastlines for surveillance in order to avoid a Mumbai-like terror attack during which Pakistani terrorists took the sea route to enter the city.

The Rs 350-crore project to set up the chain of radar sensors along the entire 7,517-km coastline, Andaman and Nicobar islands and Lakshadweep is implemented by the Coast Guard.The radar sensors will be fitted on light houses at 46 locations, out of which 36 are in the mainland, six in Lakshadweep Islands and four in the Andaman and Nicobar islands.Radar sensors use Frequency Modulated Continuous Wave (FMCW) to reliably detect moving or stationary objects even in the extreme weather conditions.

"The government has been on continuous basis reviewing the security arrangements of our coastline in the light of the emerging challenges, including those from the terrorists. The decision to set up a chain of radar sensors has been taken to strengthen the coastal security," an official said.

As a part of the overall coastal security, the navy has been designated as the authority responsible for the overall maritime security which includes coastal security and offshore security.The Indian Coast Guard is additionally designated as the authority responsible for the coastal security in territorial waters, including areas patrolled by State Coastal Police.

The existing Coastal Security Scheme provides for the setting up of 73 coastal police stations, 97 check posts, 58 outposts and 30 operational barracks, equipped with 204 vessels and vehicles in the nine coastal states, four coastal union territories.
So far, 66 coastal police stations have been operationalised. Supply of interceptor boats to the states and union territories has also started and 109 boats have been supplied till last month.

Besides, the ministry of shipping has been mandated to streamline the process of registration of all types of vessels - fishing as well as non-fishing - and also to ensure the fitting of navigational and communication equipments on these boats.Of India's total coastline, 5423 km is along the mainland and 2094 km in the Andaman and Nicobar and Lakshadweep islands.

[chackojoseph]

India and UK to conduct Submarine Exercise

Indian and UK submarines, INS Shishumar and HMS Talent (Trafalgar class) submarine respectively, will conducted a 2 day exercise from 28th July to 30th July 2010 off the West coast of India.

‘KONKAN 2010’ the annual IN-RN bilateral exercise is already being conducted at Mumbai from 26th July 2010. Konkan 2010 is the seventh edition of the ‘KONKAN’ series of exercises. 2010 edition of KONKAN is being conducted as a ‘Table-Top’ exercise at the tactical simulator located at Maritime Warfare Centre, Mumbai. A ‘Table-Top’ exercise is an exercise without actual participation of ships, but with participation of Planning Staff of both countries. The aim of this exercise is to exchange operational Planning concepts ; Maritime Domain Awareness procedures and to test these plans through simulations of a maritime scenario at sea. Experiences from this Table Top game will be utilised to refine concepts for future KONKAN series of exercises involving ships, submarines and aircraft.

The nine-member Royal Navy team is headed by Commodore James Morse, the COMUKTG (Commander United Kingdom Task Group) and the Indian Team of eleven officers is headed by Captain MA Hampiholi, Commanding Officer INS Talwar.

[Gerard]

Govt to set up chain of radar sensors along coastlines

[Manishw]

My two cents says that we are weak in the submarine area bcause we pandered too much to Yamrika all these years.These bu**ers think that they own the Indian ocean and thus they would not let any other power like India(which is the natural chowkidar) come into its own.Now they are in a quandary since china is rapidly modernizing so another player wants to play in our backyard.This quandary is also shown by our politicos who bent over backwards to please their anglo-saxon masters and its coming back to bite right back in their a$$.India is only now waking up to the numerous threats we are facing.In my humble opinion getting the Kilos also is not a viable answer in the short term since Russia as we know is not more (or should we say only a little more)dependable than say the french and is amenable to push and pulls from the anglo-saxons and the chinese.This whole tamasha was on display during the Gorky saga which I feel not only had to do with money but also with geopolitical concerns of India getting a aircraft carrier long before the chinese could field anything in that area.I feel that along with all other programmes like Scorpenes, P-75I(the multinational tamasha),Kilos, Uboats etc., we should go in for indigenous development of AIP submarines with Pvt.Sector participation.Would we have the best of the world ? no but then let us settle for the second best and go for the AIP mark 1 and make them world class subsequently in the mark-2.Numbers do have their own security.
I have deliberately left out nuke subs from this post because as philipji correctly pointed out above that the only genuine AIP is a nuclear sub.

[Thomas Kolarek]

Good that India is finally waking up to the military threat posed by China & Porkis and ordering submarines. Remember quiet hunter killer submarines are the most cost effective mechanisms for denying control of the seas to any advanced adversary.
On indigenous production of submarine one has to remember HDW, through which India already acquired the technology of building modern submarines but all went in vain becas of the politicial class bribes. Hope this time it doesn't happen.

[Singha]

submarines firing ASMs tend to give away their position to hostile LRMP a/c sweeping the sea surface with radar. and ASW helis/LRMP are much faster than even a nuclear sub. I think a very quiet submarine and a good heavy torpedo is the best sea denial soln more than ASM. every modern ships has good defences against
ASM, but tough to detect and defend against passive wake homing torps who emit no active ping signal.

SSGN type subs have a different role and the number of LACMs carried need to be significant to have an impact.

[shukla]

Defence ministry clears Navy's 30k cr destroyer project

MoD sources say `Project-15B' for the four destroyers, valued around Rs 30,000 crore, has now been sent for final approval to the finance ministry before it's taken up by the Cabinet Committee on Security.

The P-15B programme will be undertaken at Mazagon Docks (MDL) after the three Kolkata-class destroyers, already being constructed there under a long-delayed Rs 11,662-crore project, are finally delivered in 2012-2014.

"Though P-15B is basically a follow-on project of the 6,700-tonne Kolkata-class destroyers, the new destroyers will have greater stealth and advanced sensor and weapon packages,'' said a source.

In addition to the six new submarines and four destroyers over and above the 39 warships already ordered, the government has also approved the Rs 45,000-crore construction of seven more stealth frigates at MDL in Mumbai and GRSE in Kolkata.

All this shows the government has finally realised the critical need for a strong Navy to protect the country's huge maritime interests and project power in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR) and beyond, even as India jostles with an expanding Chinese footprint in IOR for strategic space.

[Singha]

30k cr is roughly 7000cr per ship around 1.5b - each

at current rates this will easily buy a T45-mki with leather upholstery and bang n olafsen speakers.

[Neshant]

30k cr is roughly 7000cr per ship around 1.5b - each

at current rates this will easily buy a T45-mki with leather upholstery and bang n olafsen speakers.

There is a vast difference between money spent on largely indegenous products within the country and money spent buying foreign products. In one case, money leaves the country never to return and in the other it circulates in the country.

[Singha]

I didnt mean buy a T45 just giving a idea of the capability and size such money will bring. MDL will build them as reported but the main attack radar will likely be israeli mf_star derivative, the 3D search radar could be SMART-L/S1850 derivative if want bleeding edge and the missiles will be the naval barak and barak-1-mki for sure.

it can be a big 8000-9000t ship if we want - with 72 long range SAMs in 2 x 36 cell arrays - if AAW oriented.

[Philip]

Excellent news about the P-15Bs,plus the follow on 7 Shivaliks.As far as the surface fleet is concerned,timely decisions are being made,though I am a bit sceptical about our local yards building on time from their track record.Expect some delays. The sub shortfall is alarming though and a "quick-fix" solution by buying either German U-214s ,obe or two may be readily available available thanks to Greece's bankruptcy,or buying some more conventional subs from Russia.The Russians are very quickly inducting 4 more Kilos so say reports and already have two Lada/Amurs in service.I would prefer getting the German U-boats with their AIP fuel cell systems,which we could compare with MESMA on the Scorpenes,the first of which will start arriving only by 2013, and get dedicated Brahmos equipped Russian AIP subs for the second line.Another Akula should be acquired before 2012 too.

[VinodTK]

Need for India -Vietnam strategic naval dialogue

Interestingly and intriguingly, the concerns of the Obama Administration over the ambivalent policies of China in this region and over the implications of the increasing maritime assertiveness of the Chinese Navy were voiced by two dignitaries of the Obama Administration, who recently visited New Delhi and Hanoi, thereby hinting that there was a triangular convergence of these concerns in the US, India and Vietnam. Does this presage the beginning of a thinking in the corridors of power in Washington on the likely benefits of a co-ordinated strategy by the US, India and Vietnam towards the growing assertiveness of the Chinese Navy?

That is the questioin that has started bothering some analysts in China. While they have so far refrained from naming India in this context, they have already named Vietnam and cautioned it not to be misled by professions of US friendship for that country.

[Manishw]

^^^ Above post is by B.Raman

[Singha]

the P15B and P17A should likely be based around same stealth design concepts, radars, combat systems , missiles and powerplant for easier logistical chain. ofcourse the P15B should give up the multi role focus of P17A and focus primarily of AAW - maybe have one helicopter but a s***load of SAMs like the KDX3 class.
atleast 72, preferably 96....so that a lone P15B can fill the air with lead. the main radar has to guide atleast 16 inflight SAMs to beat back massed attacks. needs atleast 6 CIWS launchers each with its own EO/radar for thick terminal defence.

[rohitvats]

So, are we looking at P15B in role similar to Aegis equipped destroyers?

[Austin]

Though there are new project in the making like P-15A and in principle approval for P-17A and 15B , there are major decommissioning happening in the coming decade for principal combat ships of the IN they are 5 Kashin-2 , 3 Godavari and 4 Leander class thats total 12 ships.

The new ships will replace the older decommissioned ships which means the over all strength should by and large be the same although they come with far better capabilities.

[Singha]

I think the godavari class could still be kept for a while more with heavy refit of powerplant and electrical system? these ships are not that old. western ships serve for 40 yrs.

[Willy]

The 15B's should be AAW ship's. The IN lacks a true AAW ship for fleet defence.

[Singha]

yes we have truly had enough of all-rounder ships . time to add some intimidation to the matrix. with the pakis loading up on harpoon equipped F-solahs with good sensor suite and excellent range, plus lrmp/chini-awacs...the airborne threat to IN is considerable. PLANAF ofcourse has always been a major threat with their YJ-8x missiles and dedicated fleet of Flankers.

[Nihat]

all rounder ships have thier own advantage in a navy with a limited no. Of surface ships.

We are not comparble to the USN In that way.

[arya]

Excellent news about the P-15Bs,plus the follow on 7 Shivaliks.As far as the surface fleet is concerned,timely decisions are being made,though I am a bit sceptical about our local yards building on time from their track record.Expect some delays. The sub shortfall is alarming though and a "quick-fix" solution by buying either German U-214s ,obe or two may be readily available available thanks to Greece's bankruptcy,or buying some more conventional subs from Russia.The Russians are very quickly inducting 4 more Kilos so say reports and already have two Lada/Amurs in service.I would prefer getting the German U-boats with their AIP fuel cell systems,which we could compare with MESMA on the Scorpenes,the first of which will start arriving only by 2013, and get dedicated Brahmos equipped Russian AIP subs for the second line.Another Akula should be acquired before 2012 too.

Sir, Russian never speak about it.

[Austin]

I think the godavari class could still be kept for a while more with heavy refit of powerplant and electrical system? these ships are not that old. western ships serve for 40 yrs.

They can refit it but they may end up spending more time in SY/Docks then remain operationally available .

It would be interesting to know how much time was Virat operationally available during its service life and the time it spent in docks/refit.

[johnny_m]

We should really consider the AEGIS 2 ships each to protect the 2 CBGs. I doubt the BARAK versions current and NG will do as good a job as these.

[maz]

Johnny-M

Just curious as to what metrics you have used to assert that Barak-2/MF-STAR equipped vessels are less capable than, and not quite upto the task of protecting CVBG, as well as Aegis equipped vessels. Do share these with the rest of us.

[maz]

The G class are being put thru an extentive MLU. Look at G1. G2 has been partially upgraded. G3 should be emerging from her upgrade any time.

[Rahul M]

maz, any details about the MLU on P16's ?