Indian Military Aviation

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andy B
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by andy B »

Kartik wrote:A boatload of details of the MiG-29K, MiG-35 and the MiG-29UPG upgrade are available in a recent Air International issue by Piotr Butowski. Can’t scan so I’ll post the main points

-MiG-29K Bort 941 is a company (MiG) prototype and not that of the IN.
-MiG-29Ks have LEVCON-Krueger flaps at the leading edge near the wing root. A picture of the MiG-29K from front on clearly illustrated these 4 separate LEVCON like slats. These are meant to increase aircraft stability and lifting force
-......
http://ifile.it/w7xfebs/MIG_35.zip

I posted the article on july 05 in ze MRCA dhaga onlee saar ji guess nobody checks ze posts onlee :(( :(( :((
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by nachiket »

^^andy saar, good posts get easily lost in the fantasy land that is the MRCA dhaaga. Bliss not to post important stuff there.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shiv »

Carl_T wrote:When the IAF has trained with USAF and other AFs, have they tried finding out what works against stealth planes? I think the IAF has played against the F-22 at one of the exercises, maybe Red Flag 07, were they able to try their radars on the Raptor?
I think an air force such as the IAF will have to assume that in a conflict in which the other side has a Raptor like aircraft, that aircraft will remain essentially invisible to radar (just like WW 1 and WW 2 aircrfat tended to remain invisible until they were within sight), but they will be able to do more precise damage. All defences have to be devised around such a presumption.

I will speculate more on this on the countering new threats thread. There is lot of info available on the net actually.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by andy B »

nachiket wrote:^^andy saar, good posts get easily lost in the fantasy land that is the MRCA dhaaga. Bliss not to post important stuff there.
point noted onlee
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Austin »

andy B wrote:http://ifile.it/w7xfebs/MIG_35.zip

I posted the article on july 05 in ze MRCA dhaga onlee saar ji guess nobody checks ze posts onlee :(( :(( :((
Andy Saar Thanks a Ton , Good Stuff :)

Just incase if some one needs in a single PDF

http://www.4shared.com/document/LUapjQvD/MiG-35.html
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Vipul »

Defence Ministry cancels tenders for Coast Guard helicopters.

In a major setback to Coast Guard's plan to upgrade its capacity post-Mumbai attacks, the Defence Ministry has cancelled a tender for hiring eight helicopters for transport and evacuation operations after going through the year-long selection process.

"Yes, we have cancelled the tenders for hiring of eight medium lift helicopters," a top Defence Ministry official told PTI here today.

The Defence Ministry had floated the tender for leasing the eight helicopters from global manufacturers in the middle of 2009, a deal that would have been worth several crores of rupees.

Four major helicopter manufacturers -- French Eurocopter, British-Italian Agusta Westland, Russian Kaman and American Sikorsky -- were provided the tender documents. But only Sikorsky and Agusta responded to the tender towards the end of 2009.

However, after about eight months of scrutinising the tender papers and opening of commercial bids, the Defence Ministry decided to cancel the tenders and go in for a re-tendering process, the official said.

While Sikorsky had offered its S-76C++ platform, Agusta offered its AW109G platform to meet the Coast Guard's needs, the official said. The Coast Guard plan was to place two helicopters in four different coastal cities so that its personnel could respond to emergency situation in no time.

Chennai, Kochi, Daman and Port Blair were selected as the bases and each of these cities would have two helicopters at its disposal.
The tender envisaged leasing of the eight helicopters for a period of two years, extendable to two more years, the official said.

While the selected supplier would be responsible for maintenance and operation of the helicopters, the Coast Guard would be a full time lessee, using the platform on the basis of its needs and paying for the service to the supplier. The Defence Ministry official said though one of the companies was selected for awarding the lease contract, the price negotiations failed. "We had problems with the costing of the lease. The costs proposed by the company was too high," the official said.

Meanwhile, Defence Ministry sources said the Coast Guard and the Defence Ministry had calculated the cost of the lease on the basis of one-time hiring of a helicopter. However, the bidders for the tender pointed out that the costs did not work that way when Coast Guard was the only user and a full time lessee.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Kartik »

andy B wrote:
http://ifile.it/w7xfebs/MIG_35.zip

I posted the article on july 05 in ze MRCA dhaga onlee saar ji guess nobody checks ze posts onlee :(( :(( :((
sorry buddy, I cannot open that link at work so I wasn't able to see the contents of that article..I got my Air International with that article only after that so I wrote all that stuff down. If I'd known you'd posted the same article in pdf form I'd not waste my time jotting it all down. :)
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by andy B »

Kartik wrote:
andy B wrote:
http://ifile.it/w7xfebs/MIG_35.zip

I posted the article on july 05 in ze MRCA dhaga onlee saar ji guess nobody checks ze posts onlee :(( :(( :((
sorry buddy, I cannot open that link at work so I wasn't able to see the contents of that article..I got my Air International with that article only after that so I wrote all that stuff down. If I'd known you'd posted the same article in pdf form I'd not waste my time jotting it all down. :)
All is good onlee saar, I am putting up some other interesting articles bliss to check the Intl aerospace dhaga, Chinese mil aviation dhaga...cheers.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Bala Vignesh »

Andysaan,
Could you please cross post the same here... Makes it easier...
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by andy B »

Bala Vignesh wrote:Andysaan,
Could you please cross post the same here... Makes it easier...
I would saar...unfortunately due to the omnipresence of this certain entity that we have come to know of as ze "Bongali Breaperi" will not allow to post stuff that is not related to the thread onlee... :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Singha »

raytheon offers a specialized AN/ALE-420-IN countermeasures pod to dispense upto 1000 capsules that emit the aroma of steamed Hilsa, small grain rice and mustard seed curry into the slipstream of intruding a/c. This is claimed to confuse the Breaper sensor suite and offer a chance for strike pkg to escape.
EADS offered a version of its wintip towed decoy that trails out a Koi fish fried with pepper and mustard oil.... :D

on offer both for F16-IN and F-18EF for MRCA.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Prasad »

Singha in Pakistan arms watch thread wrote:good shore based 3D radars along the west coast to surveil anything flying out of pakistan right upto makran is also a necessity.

a ks172/K37 style missile suitable for targeting LRMP/AEW/AAR ac from a very long range is a good thing...these assets are few
in number , costly and nobody wants to lose out to a cheap $2 mil missile. ideally the missiles should be stealth and use active
homing -cum- IIR -cum- ARM seekers only in last phase...relying on passive homing and going active only when its a must.

http://geimint.blogspot.com/2007/05/bey ... s-172.html

perhaps some of our Flankers accompanied by dedicated ELINT birds and K37 payload can hunt down these high value assets
even over land. would have preferred something like the Mig-31BM for its greater sprint speed and ceiling but cant have
everything.
This reminded me of the Mig-25s we had. Have they all been dismantled and turned into showpieces? I remember they were the recon versions with no armament features.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Avik »

People: I have a noob question .

Why are the CPMFs looking for C-27s (calibre) and not C-130s(calibre)?
From what I have observed, CPMFs deployment take place at a minimum of company or battallion level. A company size is between 120-175, deployment of which would be easier in a bigger aircraft like the C-130 calibre rather than the 60 seater C-27s.

I am also not sure whether the short field capability argument would work for acquiring the C-27s since a bulk of their deployment happens in cities that are relatively close to long runway airfields; they are usually then taken by Bus for deployment to the deployment site.

So, why dont we acquire more C-130 calibre aircraft since it provides the capacity to carry more troops in one go alongwith a couple of support vehicles, rather than go with C-27s for the CPMFs? Also, do we/why dont we have a policy/system for rapid charter of A-320/B-737 class aircrafts from Civilian operators for rapid deployment of CPMFs?

I can understand the need for C-27/An-32 for the IAF to support IA. But am not convinced about acquiring these aircrafts for the CPMfs. Is it just a costs issue?

Bhailog, pls shed some light on this!!
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Austin »

Reading on the Mig-29K/Mig-35 it is quite mind boggling and an eye opener to see how a late 70's designed fighter in the A/B model can do nothing better then be a superlative AD fighter at the price of short range , ever smoky engine , low TBO and low weapon load capability can translate into a very fine advanced medium fighter with double the range , more then double the payload , superb avionics and decent TBO all that without compromising its basic superlative flying qualities that any good AD fighter should have , the latter part is very important as aircraft tends to compromise its basic flying qualities as they tend to get heavier and newer variant gets developed.

It speaks volumes about the design and qualities of Mig-29 which was far ahead of its time a great tribute to its designers , it would be nice to see the final iteration of Mig-35 with with Open Architecture Avionics and maximum Indian systems end up with IAF service either within MMRCA or outside it.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Yogesh »

http://www.iitbombay.org/news/Current/s ... rms-to-aid

Research on supersonic aircraft may soon get a fillip as a group of pune-based IITian startups have developed tools to enhance the designing process and make it faster and cheaper. The software tool is called Integrated Design Using Inline Optimisation Technology, (IDIOT).

Dunno where to put it, so keeping i here... mods please move to appropriate one if required...
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Bala Vignesh »

The MMRCA Competition: What Next?
SCENARIO 6: GRIPEN, MIG OUT: The downselect eliminates the Gripen IN and the MiG-35. The former, because it’s Swedish (and woe betide any government that ever buys anything Swedish ever again).
:lol:
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by sunny y »

Latest video update on Saras...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8TuGi85 ... re=related[/youtube]
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by sunny y »

A detailed PDF document on Saras from the insider explaining the challenges that Saras team faced, the technological obstacles that they overcome & many other things.

I haven't read the whole document yet but from what I have read, it is a must read....

Many people here might have already read it but for those who haven't, here are the links -

Part I : http://www.nal.res.in/pdf/saga-main.pdf

Part II : http://nal-ir.nal.res.in/4920/1/SAGA_SAR.pdf



Thanks
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shiv »

sunny y wrote:Latest video update on Saras...
Has it flown again? I would be happy to hear that it has.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by sum »

sunny y wrote:A detailed PDF document on Saras from the insider explaining the challenges that Saras team faced, the technological obstacles that they overcome & many other things.

Thanks
Thanks a ton for the link..

The PDFs are truely a goldmine ( atleast for me)!!
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by rakall »

sum wrote:
sunny y wrote:A detailed PDF document on Saras from the insider explaining the challenges that Saras team faced, the technological obstacles that they overcome & many other things.

Thanks
Thanks a ton for the link..

The PDFs are truely a goldmine ( atleast for me)!!

Soooper.. The PDF's are a treasure trove of information & inspiration...

The amount of knowledge, infrastructure & operatng procedures created will help indigenous a/c design & development a lot.. Lot of hardwork and commitment there...

In the wake of Saras crash -- For those who thought we had just put together a fuselage & a couple of wings ad flown a plane.. this is a wakeup call..
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Indranil »

rakall wrote:Lot of hardwork and commitment there...

In the wake of Saras crash -- For those who thought we had just put together a fuselage & a couple of wings ad flown a plane.. this is a wakeup call..
I don't want to dampen the spirits, and let me assure you that I am not naive enough to say that NAL just "put together a fuselage & a couple of wings and flown a plane" for the Saras. However, I feel that the going has been slow.

I am a university student. Please don't start the PhD discussion. I equally detest people who say, "I am a PhD (from US), hence I know most". But here I see university students (with the help of professors) put together and test prototypes much faster. They build a new 8 seater every 1-2 year as "learning" projects! To site other examples, groups of 8-10 students take part in competitions to build UAVs which are pneumatically launched and recovered using parachutes with endurance >3 hours and ranges upwards of 3 km which can work in urban warfare every year.

All I am saying is that if you read a document as just an enthusiast, you would be mesmerized, because almost everything is new. However, think of decades of work of hundreds of people from the aerospace domain. We are still prototyping a plane of Saras's capability! I can understand the "delay" in LCA, but can't understand the delay for Saras. I wish we had more to show for. Something is not falling into place. Just my thoughts. I know NAL is not out there to please me, but still ...
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by putnanja »

Air force gets US planes minus security net
The Indian Air Force has contracted six aircraft for the special forces for $1 billion without military-grade secure equipment because Washington denied the technology after New Delhi refused to sign a communications secrecy pact.

The air force is now in the process of contracting another 10 very heavy strategic airlifters under the same technology-denial regime for an estimated $3 billion.
...
...
“We are aware that some of the equipment we desire may not be available. But it is up to us to use the platform the way we want to with modifications once we have it,” a senior air force officer told The Telegraph.
...

A US defence official told this newspaper “anything that requires encryption, which includes military-grade global positioning systems (GPS)” will not be mounted on the C-130J or the C-17 Globemaster III (made by Boeing) because India has not yet signed the Communications Inter-Operability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA).
...
...
Asked if there was any way India could access the equipment without signing the CISMOA, he replied “there is no way around this”. He said the CISMOA would apply to the proposed sale of the C-17 also. Trials for the aircraft were completed last month and the Indian Air Force has decided to buy it.
...
Although the communications systems would not have the desired level of security for the Indian Air Force, an official said that India was getting the Hercs with the configuration it wants. They will have self-protection and mid-air refuelling ability. The Hercs is in service in 10 countries.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Indranil »

The IAF C-130J are supposed to come "equipped with air-to-air receiver refueling capability" according to Lockheed. However, I have not seen a probe till now in any of the pics of the C-130Js in the Indian colours. Any info?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Craig Alpert »

16 C-130 J's for a total of $4Billion that works out to $250 Million for ONE HERC!!!
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Craig Alpert »

Image
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by karan_mc »

IAF gives nod for HPT-32 revival
The Indian Air Force (IAF) has decided to revive its fleet of HPT-32 trainer aircraft, which were grounded following a fatal air crash last year, the Lok Sabha was informed today.

“IAF has decided to revive HPT-32 trainer aircraft which was grounded following a fatal accident last year with critical modifications by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited,” Defence Minister A K Antony said in a written reply.

After the grounding of the over 100 ‘Deepak’ basic trainer aircraft, the IAF is using its Kiran Mk 1 (HJT-16) aircraft for Basic and intermediate flying training.

Basic trainer aircraft are used by air forces to train and prepare their rookie pilots for flying bigger aircraft, including fighter and transport aircraft.

The force has also issued a global tender for procuring 75 basic trainer aircraft from foreign vendors and the HAL will also develop indigenous basic trainers to fulfil IAF’s requirement.
http://idrw.org/?p=136
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by rohitvats »

Craig Alpert wrote:16 C-130 J's for a total of $4Billion that works out to $250 Million for ONE HERC!!!
6 Herc (USD 1billion)+ 10 C-17(USD 3billion)
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Austin »

Cant we live without signing CISMOA ? If is it just a question of communication security then we can use our own secure communication system and have mil grade access to GLONASS/

So why do we need US Milgrade communication system and GPS
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by sunny y »

Has it flown again? I would be happy to hear that it has.
No idea Sir....It was mentioned in the comments....
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by chetak »

rohitvats wrote:
Craig Alpert wrote:16 C-130 J's for a total of $4Billion that works out to $250 Million for ONE HERC!!!
6 Herc (USD 1billion)+ 10 C-17(USD 3billion)
rohitvats saar,

madrassa maths, not strictly true. :)

This also includes spares and support for a number of years. That is a major chunk of the moola.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by JTull »

karan_mc wrote:
IAF gives nod for HPT-32 revival
This news came out on 16th May. Some websites keep churning out old stuff again, just to get some hits.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by chetak »

Austin wrote:Cant we live without signing CISMOA ? If is it just a question of communication security then we can use our own secure communication system and have mil grade access to GLONASS/

So why do we need US Milgrade communication system and GPS
For once the GOI has shown balls. :D

Don't need milgrade GPS accuracy for paradropping. Locally prevailing winds at the drop point will put paid to any such hopes.

Communication is not secure in the true sense of the word. Any radio transmission, including burst mode, puts you at risk of intercept and triangulation which will reveal your position and presence to the enemy. Requirement of stealth is compromised.

Radio silence alone will not keep you safe as unexpected radar, infrared and eyeball MK 1 sources may catch you any way.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by rohitvats »

chetak wrote:
rohitvats wrote:
rohitvats saar,

madrassa maths, not strictly true. :)

This also includes spares and support for a number of years. That is a major chunk of the moola.
Chetak Sir, please don't embarass this abdul by calling sir.

As for the price point - I was actually trying to put in numbers what the news paper article said - $1billion for C-130J and $4billion for "heavy lift a/c".
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Austin »

Well communication should not be seen in the narrow sense of an operational misson where radio silence or stealth will be needed which can be mission specific.

They may need secure communication for their day to day activity and for many other mission where communication may be paramount , similarly milgrade GPS will be useful for accurate navigation.

I think once CISMOA is signed and US tries to put in all their black box secure encryption/communication thing then it will be natural for IAF to integrate it with its own AFNET and here the chances that US will try to penetrate the IAF AFNET system in guise of secure communication and interoperability.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by JimmyJ »

Is it that we need this super communication/encryption only for the aircraft from USA? I guess we may develop arrangements for other aircraft in service with a non USA solution and the same could be implemented on C-17 and C-130J

“We are aware that some of the equipment we desire may not be available. But it is up to us to use the platform the way we want to with modifications once we have it,” a senior air force officer told The Telegraph.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by chetak »

Austin wrote:
I think once CISMOA is signed and US tries to put in all their black box secure encryption/communication thing then it will be natural for IAF to integrate it with its own AFNET and here the chances that US will try to penetrate the IAF AFNET system in guise of secure communication and interoperability.
Now you are getting the point. The faqers want us to integrate with their systems at our cost and their benefit and then they will gradually start to ask for other facilities.

Classic camel and the tent story.

Kinda like the poor deluded pakis, come to think of it.

Only they got it for free.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Manish_Sharma »

chetak wrote:
Austin wrote:Cant we live without signing CISMOA ? If is it just a question of communication security then we can use our own secure communication system and have mil grade access to GLONASS/

So why do we need US Milgrade communication system and GPS
For once the GOI has shown balls. :D

Don't need milgrade GPS accuracy for paradropping. Locally prevailing winds at the drop point will put paid to any such hopes.

Communication is not secure in the true sense of the word. Any radio transmission, including burst mode, puts you at risk of intercept and triangulation which will reveal your position and presence to the enemy. Requirement of stealth is compromised.

Radio silence alone will not keep you safe as unexpected radar, infrared and eyeball MK 1 sources may catch you any way.

But finally we would have to sign it in case GOI has made up its mind to buy SH for MRCA :(

Or perhaps this point would give IAF an excuse to not buy SH :D
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Austin »

chetak wrote:Now you are getting the point. The faqers want us to integrate with their systems at our cost and their benefit and then they will gradually start to ask for other facilities.
Well on the positive side once they penetrate the AFNET , the IAF does not have to manage their network the NSA will do it for them , kinda outsourcing by MOD :wink:
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by putnanja »

Why can't India install secure communications suite from other countries, say Israel or France like we usually do with Russian stuff?
Locked