India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

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Tanaji
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Tanaji »

Most of whom I worked/interacted with spent their time publishing papers or hosting symposiums where papers were presented and enjoying the perks of a government job. Your words are not going to change my first hand experience of working with DRDO/PSU chaps. My opinion of them is low, and will stay so.
Since we are making blanket statements, here is one from me as well:

DRDO is not well liked by IA is because they impede their foreign maal acquisition fetish. IA typically cuts and pastes its GSQRs from foreign glossy magazines and gives large leeway to foreign manufacturers and denies the same grace to indigenous efforts. Your words are not going to change my second hand experience of IA chaps. My opinion of some of them is low, and will stay so.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by chackojoseph »

tsarkar wrote:Most of whom I worked/interacted with spent their time publishing papers or hosting symposiums where papers were presented.
Good.
chetak
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by chetak »

chackojoseph wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Most of whom I worked/interacted with spent their time publishing papers or hosting symposiums where papers were presented.
Good.

These are scratch my back and I will scratch your back type of papers and symposiums.

They full fill quotas required for promotion boards.

very very few of these have any possibility of seeing the daylight in any journal of repute.
chetak
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by chetak »

Tanaji wrote:
Most of whom I worked/interacted with spent their time publishing papers or hosting symposiums where papers were presented and enjoying the perks of a government job. Your words are not going to change my first hand experience of working with DRDO/PSU chaps. My opinion of them is low, and will stay so.
Since we are making blanket statements, here is one from me as well:

DRDO is not well liked by IA is because they impede their foreign maal acquisition fetish. IA typically cuts and pastes its GSQRs from foreign glossy magazines and gives large leeway to foreign manufacturers and denies the same grace to indigenous efforts. Your words are not going to change my second hand experience of IA chaps. My opinion of some of them is low, and will stay so.
I fully support your right to say so.

After all it is the lowly IA chap who lays his ass on the line to guarantee you the right of voicing your very second hand opinion.

When every one else is shafting him what's one more fleabite?

Have you watched the stone throwing scum in kashmir? Take a good look while you can because if the lowly IA guys ever start to ask why the **** should we do this thankless job for the measly pay and no perks and constant hassles you are surely in for some pain.

Look down and carefully contemplate junior. I hear that circumcision is a very painful process. :)
Last edited by chetak on 03 Aug 2010 20:36, edited 1 time in total.
Suresh S
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Suresh S »

chetak,

enjoyed that post
nishu
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by nishu »

Look down and carefully contemplate junior. I hear that circumcision is a very painful process. :)
:rotfl:
Well this is going into my list of all time best one liners
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Kanson »

chetak wrote:Many PSU folks have second jobs which they happily go to during working hours. Many DRDO folks provide lucrative consultancies using official facilities. Similar deviant practices are present in the Armed forces but on a comparative very much lesser scale not because of higher moral standards but lack of opportunity and the omnipresent threat that justice in the Forces is swift, vicious and fatal to the future promotional prospects. Resignation is the only course left in very many cases. Rehabilitation is the norm in the other two organizations. These faqers again set up shop very soon.
Dear Chetak Saar,

You have very respected opinion here. By giving an impartial opinion i think it must be valid. So...in this that sense, may i ask you, how your educated opinion is different from Karan M's statement which started this line of argument.

Karan M wrote:
Finally, if India can make do with vanilla citizens, vanilla soldiers, vanilla businesses, etc, it can make do with vanilla scientists as well.



You duly accepted that the behaviour you detest present in the Army too but not in the scale as you observed in drdo and that is primarily due to Army's swift action in giving out punishment for such behaviour. And you also noted that even in Army the behaviour is less not because of high moral standards of gents there but beccoz of non availability of opportunities. So basically you are also saying the samething that Karan M also saying. It is the same vanilla soliders and same vanilla scientists. If Army can make do with those vanilla soliders in their own way, i guess the drdo can make do with vanilla scientists in their own way, isnt it ?
One little lamented chairman of HAL used to specialize in vindictively and peremptorily transferring senior people to far flung divisions during official meetings for daring to disagree with him.
I'm sure such behaviour can be seen in every organization - public, private and even in Army. Can you vouch that such things hadn't happened in Armed Forces ? Pls welcome to the real world, Sir. Just as every person cant wear the uniform, Army procedure cant be replicated in every part of our life. Otherwise ours would be looking like a military state, with those swift punishments. Only difference that between Taliban's way may be that no chopping of hands and things like that but swift punishments nevertheless!
Last edited by Kanson on 03 Aug 2010 21:33, edited 1 time in total.
Suresh S
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Suresh S »

Indian armed forces are the best and most patriotic part of indian society . so get a life Tanaji
Kanson
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Kanson »

snahata wrote:Indian armed forces are the best and most patriotic part of indian society . so get a life Tanaji

If the best and most partiotic indian society in indulging in bribery, fake encounters and as in naval war room leak case, then what can be said about poor abdul ? Those hand picked properly trained gentlemen which years of service can do this...why blame the ordinary citizen.
chetak
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by chetak »

Kanson wrote: So basically you are also saying the samething that Karan M also saying. It is the same vanilla soliders and same vanilla scientists. If Army can make do with those vanilla soliders in their own way, i guess the drdo can make do with vanilla scientists in their own way, isnt it ?

With a small vital difference saar,

The Army, Navy and Air Force Acts.

These guys have abrogated their fundamental rights when they join up.

To refuse an order invites instant retribution. On the field it may even mean death.

This is what changes the vanilla to something very different and embeds an ethos that is generally kept lifelong, barring bad apples of course.

99.99% are good guys because they just want to do their jobs and get on with their lives like any one else. They have no life beyond the service and a vast majority live without their families 95% of their working lives.

They have no opportunity or scope or interest towards corruption because they are isolated from all such dealings. Some misbegotten %^&*s in uniform are always ready to gum up the works.

Vanilla they may be when they join up but soon metamorphose into professionals at their levels of training. Their life is regulated, regimented and preordained in all aspects. The institution of the services does not exist any where else except in the services. They take plain vanilla and mold them into something very different. Such a process is not possible else where in society. It is a magical process to watch a raw farm boy recruit transformed into a smart soldier, confident and casteless. A chamar (pardon me!) could command them without eliciting comment.

They go where they are told to go and get shot when some moron mucks up like omar is merrily doing in kashmir.

Vanilla they most definitely are not. :)
chetak
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by chetak »

Kanson wrote:
If the best and most partiotic indian society in indulging in bribery, fake encounters and as in naval war room leak case, then what can be said about poor abdul ? Those hand picked properly trained gentlemen which years of service can do this...why blame the ordinary citizen.
Kanson saar,

Who said that they were our best and most patriotic?

Some scum will always float to the top.

If you looked deeply enough there would have been early signs missed or overlooked that would have helped catch these buggers early enough right at the training stage.

The best and patriotic you saw in Kargil when they gave up their lives without a second thought. Do you ever think of them or even know their names?

same bullshit war room leaks!

What has been done for them except idiot mohandas pai and other rascals obstructing a war memorial.

Who cares?

Except the families and colleagues whose very lives these heroes changed.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by rohitvats »

chetak wrote:
<SNIP>

smart soldier, confident and casteless. A chamar (pardon me!) could command them without eliciting comment.

<SNIP>
Pardon the OT Sir, but this reminds me of an incident - Dad was posted as Company Commander in his Corps's Center and School - this was one of the training companies where recruits receive basic soldiering before moving into specialized training companies called TT (Technical Training) Companies.

Now, the recruit at Company level has passed only one level of induction training of couple of weeks and pretty raw. One fine day, a working party (consisting of dozen odd recruits) turned up for garden work. They were feeling thirsty and one of them requested for water for the group. He was asked to fill the jug from the filter in the house. This guy sheepishly said (and I remember this to this day) - "Sir, hamare yahan hum log ghar ke andar nahin aate or na hee ghar ki cheej se haat lagate hain" (Sir, in my village, us people do not enter household nor do we touch household items). Dad took him in front of everyone and said - "Is wardi ko pehen ne ke baad, tumhara dharm sirf ek fauji ka dharm hai...isko pehen ne ke pehle tum kya the, is baat ka koi matlab nahin hai" (After you wear this uniform, you dharma/duty is only that of a soldier...whatever you were earlier, is immaterial). The guy duly filled the tumbler for his group and gave water to everyone.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by kvraghav »

Sorry to jump in chetak sir,

First and foremost people here understand the sacrifices the soldier makes but then the problem they are trying to point out is about procurements that is different from the plain soldier.I agree citizens are corrupt,politicians are corrupt even DRDO is,but cross your heart and tell defence procurements is clean.

And the second thing.we dont want to associate soldiers sacrifices with numbers.if so ,then a interesting fact would be number of people dying on the road while going to and from work.I think the percentage is far higher than the soldiers profession related casualties.You can say that the soldier preofession is related to the safety of others.But then you can correlate the numbers and find may be just see how many of the peoples death can be associated with feeding the army.

I know people would jump on me and also i wont reply any more here.Thanks.The only fact i want to highlight it we all know and appreciate the plain soldiers sacrifices but keeping that as the yardstick for defence procurements is irrelevant i think.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Tanaji »

chetak wrote: I fully support your right to say so.

After all it is the lowly IA chap who lays his ass on the line to guarantee you the right of voicing your very second hand opinion.

When every one else is shafting him what's one more fleabite?

Have you watched the stone throwing scum in kashmir? Take a good look while you can because if the lowly IA guys ever start to ask why the **** should we do this thankless job for the measly pay and no perks and constant hassles you are surely in for some pain.

Look down and carefully contemplate junior. I hear that circumcision is a very painful process. :)
Ah, thanks, but I am not going to bite for your obvious argument.

Firstly, my post was a deliberate one to highlight the sweeping statements that tsarkar is making and the rigidness of his thoughts. If he has so made up his mind "Your words are not going to change ... experience..." why bother to post in the forum in the first place? The post was more to show what logical extremes one can take the same reasoning.

Secondly, do take cognizance of what I have posted. I have deliberately used the words "My opinion of some of them is low". Pray tell me, what is your opinion of the people involved in the Naval war room leak scandal? Just as it is ridiculous judging the entire organization of Ia/Navy etc on the basis of a few who break the rules, it is ridiculous to tar the entire DRDO based on a few experiences. It takes two to tango, and the Navy has had the most success in using the DRDO expertise for its own indigenous efforts, followed by the IAF. Why is it the IA lags so shamefully behind? Is the Arjun affair one that showcased the IA's support for indigenous products well?

Thirdly, you have proved my point indirectly by your following statements:

These guys have abrogated their fundamental rights when they join up.

To refuse an order invites instant retribution. On the field it may even mean death.
and
They have no opportunity or scope or interest towards corruption because they are isolated from all such dealings
The Armed Forces scores in terms of efficiency precisely because of the above. DRDO is a CIVIL organization, and much as you may want it, it is impossible to apply the same laws to civilians. Wasn't your comrade-in-arms RayC in the habit of pointing out that enlisted men are the mirror of the society? IF so, DRDO is even more integrated with the society and its morals for its workforce. So, given the current state of affairs, isnt it natural there is sloth and corruption? We may not like it, but that's the way it is.

Fourthly, stop wrapping yourself in the tri-color every time there is some criticism of anyone related to the armed forces. Just because someone points out a fault, doesn't mean that you have to close ranks and claim that the person making the criticism doesn't support or appreciate the Armed Forces. Especially if you know nothing about me or my background. If your only criteria for serving the country is if the person wears a uniform or not, then you are severely mistaken. If we didnt we would not be here.
Last edited by Tanaji on 03 Aug 2010 23:39, edited 1 time in total.
Tanaji
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Tanaji »

snahata wrote:Indian armed forces are the best and most patriotic part of indian society . so get a life Tanaji
Here is a bit of gratuitous advice: why not lurk a bit more before posting and making personal attacks?
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by chetak »

Kanson wrote: So basically you are also saying the samething that Karan M also saying. It is the same vanilla soliders and same vanilla scientists. If Army can make do with those vanilla soliders in their own way, i guess the drdo can make do with vanilla scientists in their own way, isnt it ?
Kanson saar,

If the IA actually did make do with vanilla, things would have been vastly different.

Take a peek across the border and see what havoc vanilla has created there.

We have a disciplined, motivated and dedicated Army, firmly under civilian control even though such control has actually translated to IAS hegemony. In a force of more than a million souls some bad elements are bound to be there.

If you are talking sircreek and siachen without the Army being taken into confidence about the "mountain of peace" rhetoric of some pappi jhappi hyped up babu, you are toying with national security without understanding the serious implications of such actions.

After all such pappi jhappi wallas will soon retire to their government provided secure villas with z category security lifelong. With their 3.5 lakhs monthly pensions from the world bank.

Leaving the Army to pick up the pieces as usual.

Which morons returned the haji pir pass and 93,000 POWs without squeezing paki testicles?

What twisted logic made them rape their own countries ?? and so soon after they had sent countless of their Army countrymen to their deaths??
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by chetak »

kvraghav wrote: I know people would jump on me and also i wont reply any more here.Thanks.The only fact i want to highlight it we all know and appreciate the plain soldiers sacrifices but keeping that as the yardstick for defence procurements is irrelevant i think.
kvraghav ji,

It is the politician who walks away 99.99% of the kickback.

Do you know how much the low life made in the su 30 deal?

The corrupt services guys got some ayeshas, some bottles of booze and a few trips abroad. Mere peanuts compared to what the politicians got and salted away in off shore accounts.

Defence deals are signed by the politicians and not the services guys. Even trials are steered in some favorable directions by dangling governorships and what not. GOI secretaries are also into this.

Such orders provide opportunities for the willing service guys to dip their beaks. I am not excusing any corruption at any level but the service guys get the chai paani stuff and the secretaries much more and the politician the most of all.

Are they catching service guys with crores of ill gotten wealth? Its only the IAS guys who are regularly caught with crores. The Army guy simply has no normal opportunity to hadap crores. He deals in a few lakhs, ayeshas and booze. All the more shameful for us because he has sullied his uniform.

The politician is just not touched at all.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by ShivaS »

After all it is the lowly IA chap who lays his ass on the line to guarantee you the right of voicing your very second hand opinion.
Shades of few good men dialogue!!! :mrgreen: :)
you have no idea how to defend a nation. All you did was weaken a country today, Kaffee. That's all you did. You put people's lives in danger. Sweet dreams, son.
Col:Jessep

Sad day BRF members plagiarize movie dialogue :((
chetak
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by chetak »

ShivaS wrote:
After all it is the lowly IA chap who lays his ass on the line to guarantee you the right of voicing your very second hand opinion.
Shades of few good men dialogue!!! :mrgreen: :)
you have no idea how to defend a nation. All you did was weaken a country today, Kaffee. That's all you did. You put people's lives in danger. Sweet dreams, son.
Col:Jessep

Sad day BRF members plagiarize movie dialogue :((
Guilty as charged but still very true.

Jessop himself must have heard it else where, no?

Ill paid Army guys are made to lay in on the line. They have little choice.
Last edited by chetak on 04 Aug 2010 00:17, edited 1 time in total.
kvraghav
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by kvraghav »

But Chetak ji,

Isint it always the fact that you get based on your level in the heirarchy?I mean a plain constable gets may be 100rs per day but a SI would get 1000.But then we dont mince words when a constable collects 20rs from a truck driver.Also i have a my understanding regarding Politicians and corruption and this is based on seeing my DAD(he was a KAS officer).A politician does not know where is the money in the first time.It is the officers who are involved in the dept who show him the way in the hope that they get their cut.Same holds good for any dept.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by chetak »

kvraghav wrote:But Chetak ji,

Isint it always the fact that you get based on your level in the heirarchy?I mean a plain constable gets may be 100rs per day but a SI would get 1000.But then we dont mince words when a constable collects 20rs from a truck driver.Also i have a my understanding regarding Politicians and corruption and this is based on seeing my DAD(he was a KAS officer).A politician does not know where is the money in the first time.It is the officers who are involved in the dept who show him the way in the hope that they get their cut.Same holds good for any dept.

kvraghav ji,

Very true.

Is it not easier to just go after the constable once in a while and make an example of him. He doesn't count anyway, no?
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by kvraghav »

^^
That is perspective.Some people like me only feel that way if the constable at the circle collecting 20 rs is said be far better than others because a CRPF constable is battling naxals in the forest.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by chackojoseph »

chetak wrote:These are scratch my back and I will scratch your back type of papers and symposiums.

They full fill quotas required for promotion boards.

very very few of these have any possibility of seeing the daylight in any journal of repute.
Welcome to research. All need not be above par. If you remember LCA papers like the AoA, these have been road maps. In west, a lot of papers are published. China has overtaken India in research paper publishing. DRDO shouldn't be confused with manufacturing. These papers form the back bone of all the products of future. Its futile to say, publish only world class papers. Even professors from IIT publish papers. IIT students have built even prototypes. They have not seen the day light. Research and innovation means just that. You never know, when a million rupee idea comes or how it comes.

Actually tsarkar and you have just praised the researchers at DRDO.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Suresh S »

Tanaji wrote:
snahata wrote:Indian armed forces are the best and most patriotic part of indian society . so get a life Tanaji
Here is a bit of gratuitous advice: why not lurk a bit more before posting and making personal attacks?
Listen Junior,

Do you think you have achieved enough in your life to give me advise?. It is the quality and not quantity of posts that counts.
You are trying to slander an institution, the Indian armed forces, that protects your and my backside sometime at the cost of their lives. As another post suggested that armed forces are a reflection of the society we live in, well I disagree. Thank god indian armed forces are not a complete reflection of indian society. the reason may be their history, tradition, leadership, discipline or some other complex reason.
The Aam Aadmi may not be rich, sophisticated, or educated but some time he/she is smarter than many of us. Ask this common man, who does he trust the most with his life/liberty/safety and the answer will always be Indian armed forces.

Jai Hind
Last edited by Suresh S on 04 Aug 2010 23:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by rohitvats »

DRDO seems to have got a real good hold on the Radar and SIGINT related equipmet development. Have hear some extremely wonderful stories about Samyukta.....that piece of equipment (actually, caravan of equipment) is zimply wonderful......even in the Radar segment, some real high-tech development seems to be going on..and AD Arty fellows are pretty excited about it....
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by chackojoseph »

You talk for Army Signals. They are actually very ingenious. I have only praise for them. Samyukta faced some issues during development. But, signals and drdo did not have an open spat and worked the issues around. Now samyukta has a new sibling. This example od akin to NPOL and navy for HUMSA.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by chetak »

rohitvats wrote:DRDO seems to have got a real good hold on the Radar and SIGINT related equipmet development. Have hear some extremely wonderful stories about Samyukta.....that piece of equipment (actually, caravan of equipment) is zimply wonderful......even in the Radar segment, some real high-tech development seems to be going on..and AD Arty fellows are pretty excited about it....

Yes sir,

DRDO has done extremely well in SIGINT for some decades now. Even the IN has some systems which gave yeoman service.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by rohitvats »

chackojoseph wrote:You talk for Army Signals. They are actually very ingenious. I have only praise for them. Samyukta faced some issues during development. But, signals and drdo did not have an open spat and worked the issues around. Now samyukta has a new sibling. This example od akin to NPOL and navy for HUMSA.
CJ, there is a reason that Corps of Signals (or Jimmies, as they are called) is considered more OG than others (which is IA lingo for first amongst equal - OG stands for Olive Green, the color of the Uniform). AREN is just one example of what they have and can do (and that too, since good 15-20).
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by chetak »

chackojoseph wrote:
Welcome to research. All need not be above par. If you remember LCA papers like the AoA, these have been road maps. In west, a lot of papers are published. China has overtaken India in research paper publishing. DRDO shouldn't be confused with manufacturing. These papers form the back bone of all the products of future. Its futile to say, publish only world class papers. Even professors from IIT publish papers. IIT students have built even prototypes. They have not seen the day light. Research and innovation means just that. You never know, when a million rupee idea comes or how it comes.

Actually tsarkar and you have just praised the researchers at DRDO.
Your understanding of our comments, ( mine, at least!!) is 180 degrees out. Researchers??

Have you even read any of these often puerile "papers"?? And then read some papers from IIT's and TIFR and IISc.

No body said publish only world class papers. This is in any case impossible for such time servers.

One lab organises a symposium in jan, a few months later another lab organises another symposium and so on. The same shady bunch moves in with same puerile articles. Senile seniors are given credit for things never done to ensure favorable review and publication. All this counts in the promotion rat race
and paper count.

DRDO is incapable for manufacturing. This is beyond their charter and also their limited expertise.

They however prefer to muscle their way on to the boards of some PSUs!!

Additional moolah in fees. :)
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by tsarkar »

CJ – 90% papers are utterly useless and speculation based on hypothetical extension of papers published in foreign journals. No further scientific work can be based on those papers, nor can any productionization.

There is a huge difference between a vanilla jawan and vanilla scientist.

A vanilla cadet, after being seeped in the Army’s ethos during training, is transformed to an officer and imbibes a zeal to perform his duty. The mediocre DRDO scientist after putting together multiple papers, still remains mediocre.

DRDO promotion is time & quota based while services promote by Selection that assess performance. By quota, I mean DRDO has X number of “E” grade vacancies, and the full quota of X is filled up irrespective of whether those promoted did actually show the performance to be promoted.

When a service officer fails to perform, even because of outside factors, he is hauled up by a Court of Enquiry of peers. The system itself appraises its own, and takes corrective measures.

When a DRDO chap promises to deliver X system, no validation is done internally whether he exactly has the capability to do so.

When he fails to deliver, instead of an inhouse audit or assessment on the reasons of failure and possible measures to
rectify, there is a system wide effort to cover up and find reasons. Classic case is Kaveri.

Where incompetency has been proven, instead of taking him to task, the person is rehabilitated.

Tanaji, I see you conveniently ignored my next sentence on exceptions in DRDO and branded it as sweeping.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by chackojoseph »

:D Its always 80 : 20 principle. 20% is best performing than the rest 80. Same in Army or IAF or Navy.

I too have services background. I have seen things very close. Its only some people in services are good. Rest of them are "saav dhan, veesh ram" guys. The quality of the officers is also known. Still they fill up the ranks. Army, Navy Air Force or DRDO, if you are not in good books of senior, you are in muck.

The DRDO promotions too have gone through a sea change. last time I met them, they acknowledged the issues and they were attempting to change.

In forces Officers have left forces in middle of their career. The reason is that its worthless to stay on, they say. Lot of them don't know what to do if they come out. A lot of them calculate, hmm... if I take premature retirement, I will get so much money and if I stay on, i will get so much etc etc.

Forces too don't get people any more.

Weather its Army or DRDO, both are "Government Ration Eating Force."

I am not trying to out down or up an organization. I am saying is that government services are the same. Be it or Army or others. For example the IAS attitude towards the forces is different. Within services the attitudes wrt to DRDO is different.

How different is it in private sector? The best performer is not the top guy. The best politician is the top guy.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by sugriva »

snahata wrote:It is the quality and not quantity of posts that counts.
You are trying to slender an institution, the Indian arme forces,
The quality of your post is indeed slender saar. Blijj to accept my salutes.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Tanaji »

chackojoseph wrote::D Its always 80 : 20 principle. 20% is best performing than the rest 80. Same in Army or IAF or Navy.

I too have services background. I have seen things very close. Its only some people in services are good. Rest of them are "saav dhan, veesh ram" guys. The quality of the officers is also known. Still they fill up the ranks. Army, Navy Air Force or DRDO, if you are not in good books of senior, you are in muck.

The DRDO promotions too have gone through a sea change. last time I met them, they acknowledged the issues and they were attempting to change.

In forces Officers have left forces in middle of their career. The reason is that its worthless to stay on, they say. Lot of them don't know what to do if they come out. A lot of them calculate, hmm... if I take premature retirement, I will get so much money and if I stay on, i will get so much etc etc.

Forces too don't get people any more.

Weather its Army or DRDO, both are "Government Ration Eating Force."

I am not trying to out down or up an organization. I am saying is that government services are the same. Be it or Army or others. For example the IAS attitude towards the forces is different. Within services the attitudes wrt to DRDO is different.

How different is it in private sector? The best performer is not the top guy. The best politician is the top guy.
Exactly. The 80 -20% principle applies everywhere. The Armed Forces by the nature of the job they do, have rules that facilitate efficiency which cannot be applied to the civil sector. No one is arguing that all is hunky dory with DRDO, which has inefficiencies, but this is the same as any other PSU.

tsarkar, you propose shutting down the DRDO. The IA does not want to undertake its own research and neither has it shown the slightest inclination or aptitude to do so. IF indigenization is a worthwhile goal, given the former, how do you propose it be achieved? Your answer to DRDO inefficiency is...... buy more foreign equipment. Chetak, even you rail against the CISMOA in your other posts. So how does shutting down DRDO help?
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by tsarkar »

Tanaji – I am all in favour of indigenization. I would have a bias towards local manufacture even if it marginally falls short of required performance.

I am against grossly sub standard stuff, whether foreign or domestic. I am for drafting good contracts, like buying more HAL LUH and less foreign LUH if HAL delivers on time and vice versa.

What I am against is unnecessary speculation and baseless allegations that X is not doing enough by not asking Y to develop Z.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by ShivaS »

Frenchi in Angreji ! slender it is indeed in arme...
snahata toh hasi atha magar gussa kyon ata hai smaj me nahata
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by ShivaS »

There are many reasons why India will continue to be importer of arms, no matter how many crucible models are developed in Indian labs.

Go back to 1998 BAS magazine and read an article on DRDO.

We do not have the culture to make something in India from concept to concrete product.

Example Daniels started serious consideration of going big way into UAV’s last year , they already have a UAV of predator capability

Why do we need so many collaborations even after we had initial TOTs in defence sector?
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by prabhug »

So i feel it all boils down to these

1.Attract the enthusiast and talented people
2.Make the organization more transparent.(Not a glass at least some sun glass)
3.Fund private research and encourage entrepreneurs from services and DRDO


And for me the aim is to facilitate the availability of best weapons at the cheapest cost and developing a robust defense manufacturing industry which support the armed force to take up difficult wars.Whether indigenous activity helps it definitely it has to be done
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by chackojoseph »

tsarkar wrote:I am against grossly sub standard stuff, whether foreign or domestic. I am for drafting good contracts, like buying more HAL LUH and less foreign LUH if HAL delivers on time and vice versa.
Fine. Show us what us the high tect stuff Army has imported till date?

My opinion is Army imports something that has been used by other forces and then its in the fag end of the life or mid life.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by nrshah »

Chacko,
I have to disagree with your last assertion... If T 90 is the case, although i am a die hard arjun fan (have been reading since childhood about it when i did not know how to spell armour and dreaming of it becoming worlds deadliest tank and our FMBT), i dont think any option was available at the time initial contract of t 90 was made.... and I dont think t 90 is at the end of its life.... it continues to serve as the fmbt of both the russian army and IA and does seem to keep that position for atleast a decade more... Now with Arjun coming, 250 are already ordered (i agree with IA inertia and attitude, but at the end a good product came out as winner) with development approval already given for MK 2 and FMBT

With respect to buying after it has been used by others, till the time we have MIC equivalent of US / Russian or EU, we will have to live it with in one or other thing... but even that has started to change to some extent because of whatever growth our MIC has made, case for eg is P 8I, FGFA, Bramhos, Mig 35, Rafale, Eurofighter, Grippen etc...
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by tsarkar »

My personal observations,

When LCA started out, IAF and ADA did indeed work together. However while IAF wanted a workable fighter like JF-17 to replace the MiG-21, ADA wanted to incorporate bleeding edge technology.

Things came to a breaking point when IAF wanted to use proven Dassault analogue FBW software while ADA wanted to develop its own quad channel digital FBW. Both IAF and ADA PoV hold merit. IAF PoV was using a proven subsystem will quicken development. ADA PoV was new system technologically superior.

At this point IAF walked out because its PoV was not being considered by ADA.

In hindsight, the ADA FBW system had a long development time, Lockheed Martin was roped in to assist testing the software, 1998 Pokharan happened, they kept the code, neither Boeing nor EADS could assist testing, and even today, the Tejas flight envelope has not been fully opened up. Hence implementing IAF's PoV would have resulted in a quicker and less risky development

The radar and engine were even murkier stories. No one kept track of how development was progressing. There was no internal audit done or review conducted.

Once IAF walked out, user feedback became unavailable. Small issues – like stressing the outer wing to carry a better missile – became big issue. ADA said original spec said R-60. However, if ADA was projecting themselves as seasoned designers, they should have kept in mind that R-60 was rapidly becoming obsolete, and they should have future proofed the outer wing by sufficiently stressing it. IAF acquired R-73 only in 1996-97 with the Su-30.

Not one BR member in LCA thread could respond why air intakes, that is one of the first things being designed and tested via computer modeling, simulations and wind tunnel testing, still has issues 10 years after first flight? Couldn’t we test, discover these issues and resolve then in the last 10 years?

Many members cited stealthy Y ducts, however, the primary function of a duct is to supply air and the secondary function is to offer stealth. Isn’t it irrational fulfilling secondary function while failing the primary function? A stealthy intake duct is designed for a plane that chokes it and restricts its envelope?

Refer here, http://www.cadfamily.com/download/CAE/n ... CA_ada.pdf. This is a 2003 study. The first three points on the first slide make the problem amply clear. So problem is known, simulation tools are available, yet problem persists to this day.

Practically, the stealthy duct is meaningless. Firstly, in a single engine aircraft, the forward fuselage hides the compressor face, unlike a twin engine plane like F-14 or Su-30. The simplest approach would have been focusing on supplying air to the turbofan ignoring the stealth requirement.

There are operational issues with inducting a platform like LCA.

An aircraft with sound basics and less than optimal performance OVERALL can be inducted. Not an aircraft exceeding performance in some areas and lacking in others. So, a chap with 15 inch biceps and normal lungs can be inducted. Here we have a chap with 18 inch biceps and asthmatic lungs. The 18 inch biceps doesn’t compensate for the asthmatic lungs.

Now, when ADA ignored IAF’s Point of View regarding flight control, how can one expect IAF to keep partnering? It takes two to tango. When one partner organization’s PoV is repeatedly disregarded, the natural reaction of that partner organization is WTF, go to hell.

DRDO’s feverish desire to over engineer to create superlative systems has been its major reason for failure and acrimony with its end users.

BR members say services don’t take initiative, however there is a history behind the mindset of the services.

Having said that, things are changing for the better in both organizations.
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