Indian Military Aviation

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Aug 2010 20:25

france will happily honor its nato commitments and pass on all info to brussels GHQ. russia would not sell us their best stuff.

stuff like datalinks and radios are best done inhouse using imported components if need be, but with desi system integration and sw/hw modules.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 03 Aug 2010 20:43

CAG Pulls Up IAF For Operation, Maintenance Of Mi Series, Slams Navy For Functioning Of Aviation Arm

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 Aug 2010 20:54

Austin wrote:
Well on the positive side once they penetrate the AFNET , the IAF does not have to manage their network the NSA will do it for them , kinda outsourcing by MOD

Austin saar,

You have got it backwards.

THEY are trying to outsource to us and ultimately, fully substitute Indian body bags for gora body bags.

Here we must be thankful (UGH!!!) to the commies for once. They will bring the roof down where some true and some imagined US duplicity is involved.

They have raped the pakis and continue to do so with impunity. The pakis have only upped the monetary cost like good prostitutes. They are still lying down and let the amrekis have their way.

What makes you think that we have the capabilities to handle these guys?

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 03 Aug 2010 21:55

Singha wrote:france will happily honor its nato commitments and pass on all info to brussels GHQ. russia would not sell us their best stuff.

Singhaji,
If what you say is true then it is a good enough reason to reject most of the contenders in the MMRCA race... Except may be the Gripen but even they may be arm twisted into giving the Amirikis access to the comm systems in their aircraft..
Only the MiG35 will remain...

One thing i don't understand is why does Uncle Sam want everyone to sign the CISMOA??? I mean what does he get out of it, apart from SIGINT of our comms...

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 03 Aug 2010 22:12

unkil is paranoid about dem damn sovietski soyoozes under the bed (every bed), old habits die hard

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Aug 2010 22:43

Chetak what worries me is if CISMOA is all about communication interoperability and selling secure system then we need to take one step backward and think why would US force us to sign it.

Naturally its nice to communicate and have interoperability with NATO/US according to their standards , but it also means these communication have to be interoperable with IAF standards AFNET or something else.

A set of blackboxes will mean over a period of time they would have good idea on our communication/signal network , monitor and decipher crypt communications or worse introduce logic bomb that that remain dormant and get activated when needed.

This just does not just concerns IAF but Defence establishment , 10 years down the line all defence establishment will be much more network and Netcentric then we are today and this is the best bet for NSA/DOD to do their dirty works.

Its one thing to get sanctioned on bare metal hardware but any compromise on communication will be impossible to detect and recover

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 03 Aug 2010 23:15

chetak wrote: Don't need milgrade GPS accuracy for paradropping. Locally prevailing winds at the drop point will put paid to any such hopes.
.

Heard the same a few years back from a gent who flies transport. Says they rarely use GPS for serious stuff, as it is compromised and they might end up as plots on some screen in far away polygonal buildings with stale coffee smell.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 03 Aug 2010 23:26

IAF Modernizing Base Repair, Equipment Depots

The Indian Air Force is looking to modernize 27 base repair depots and equipment depots located all over India, and has invited industry to express interest in bidding.

The project, to be completed within three years, is expected to be worth around $390 million. It involves the procurement and supply of machine tools, electronics and electrical test equipment, the installation of material handling, packaging and allied machinery. It also will include fabrication of machine equipment and infrastructure and civil construction work for upgrades of existing hangars, bays, labs and warehousing facilities.
...
...

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 04 Aug 2010 00:01

rohitvats wrote:
Craig Alpert wrote:16 C-130 J's for a total of $4Billion that works out to $250 Million for ONE HERC!!!
6 Herc (USD 1billion)+ 10 C-17(USD 3billion)

AAHHH I stand corrected. Should have read better!

Thank you.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 04 Aug 2010 03:10

Russian firm offers knowhow

http://www.hindu.com/2010/08/04/stories ... 771300.htm

A leading Russian manufacturer is ready to share with India sophisticated technology for building flight simulators to train military pilots. Their use would help to reduce operational cost and the accident rate in the Indian Air Force.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 04 Aug 2010 05:29

CAG finds lapses in defence wings

“Despite the availability of funds and a specific acquisitions programme, the IAF was unable to induct even a single helicopter between 2002 and 2007,” the report says.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 04 Aug 2010 06:26

Defective Choppers Bought for 182 Crore
The Times of India

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 04 Aug 2010 06:28

Indian Navy Harrier Upgrade "Imprudent", Partiality Shown To Israeli Firms: Indian Audit Watchdog
Shiv Aroor

Damningly, the CAG report also notes that the Navy was "predisposed" towards selecting the Rafael-made Derby BVR missile "even though the missile did not fulfil the needs of the Indian Navy". The report notes, "The RFP issued in August 2003 stipulated that the IN’s requirement was for the Derby missile. As no corrigendum to the RFP was issued, clearly, competition in procurement was ruled out. As a result, although the RFP was issued to seven firms and an extension was granted till October 2003, only the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) of the Derby missile responded. The trial directives were issued in March 2008 after scaling down the NSQRs at the instance of vendor. Consequently, the acceptable maximum range of the missile was reduced from ‘A’ Km to ‘B’ Km, which was 54 per cent of the original accepted range. Actual live firing of missile was conducted, in March 2008, on an upgraded prototype Sea Harrier aircraft at a range of ‘B’ Km for missile in mid envelope scenario (33 67 per cent). The vendor was unwilling to guarantee performance of the missile beyond the scaled downrange of ‘B’ Km. One of the basic aims of the acquisition of BVR Air to Air missile was to destroy targets at beyond visual ranges of up to ‘C’ Km. However, the missiles acquired failed to achieve the desired ranges in the live firing. The capability of the seeker, at the range prescribed in NSQR (‘A’ Km) was also not demonstrated in live firing. Moreover, the missile launcher design is being used for the first time for airborne operations."

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 04 Aug 2010 07:25

Defence Research and Development Organisation Plans Radar Along Border
Daily News & Analysis

Published: Tuesday, Aug 3, 2010, 1:41 IST
By Suman Sharma | Place: New Delhi | Agency: DNA

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is creating a tri-services (Army, Navy, Air Force) communication signal intelligence gathering network along the country’s entire border.

It will be operational in a year’s time.

While it is not yet known where the command and control of the radar network will be located, the tri-services communication signal intelligence will intercept and analyse situations and information in real time.

The Hyderabad-based Defence Electronics Research Laboratory (DLRL) is in the process of covering the country’s entire border for signal interception and intelligence gathering, with penetration of up to 200 kilometres into the neighbouring territory. The project is expected to cost Rs700-800 crore.

The land-based system will intercept aerial communication, real-time activity on ground across the border, and aircraft signals. The network will have 25 static and four mobile units for interception.

The first level of the system will become operational by December 2010 and the remaining will start functioning by 2011. DLRL director G Bhupati pointed out that there was no substitute for self-reliance. “Electronic warfare will be required in the coming years,” he said.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 04 Aug 2010 10:03

Juggi G wrote:Defence Research and Development Organisation Plans Radar Along Border
Daily News & Analysis
Published: Tuesday, Aug 3, 2010, 1:41 IST
By Suman Sharma | Place: New Delhi | Agency: DNA

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is creating a tri-services (Army, Navy, Air Force) communication signal intelligence gathering network along the country’s entire border.

It will be operational in a year’s time.

While it is not yet known where the command and control of the radar network will be located, the tri-services communication signal intelligence will intercept and analyse situations and information in real time.

The Hyderabad-based Defence Electronics Research Laboratory (DLRL) is in the process of covering the country’s entire border for signal interception and intelligence gathering, with penetration of up to 200 kilometres into the neighbouring territory. The project is expected to cost Rs700-800 crore.

The land-based system will intercept aerial communication, real-time activity on ground across the border, and aircraft signals. The network will have 25 static and four mobile units for interception.

The first level of the system will become operational by December 2010 and the remaining will start functioning by 2011. DLRL director G Bhupati pointed out that there was no substitute for self-reliance. “Electronic warfare will be required in the coming years,” he said.

Saw it for the first time in Aero India 2005. Its good that its been finally approved. IIRC the figure quoted was 300 kms.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Aug 2010 10:15

is this the full incarnation of Samyukta?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 04 Aug 2010 10:51

Singha wrote:is this the full incarnation of Samyukta?

No. See what they are doing is centrally networking all the radars in the country. If you look at it part by part.

1) it can see everything inside (within scope) Afghanistan.
2) IOR up to 300 kms
3) Good part of Tibet.
4) Whatever on the Burmese side.

It will create a holistic picture. Currently, its not happening.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Aug 2010 10:56

errr...while I'm not educated in the ways of technology, can someone tell me how a radar is used for TECHINT or SIGINT - are not SIGINT/TECHINT Passive devices which catch on to emissions in EM spectrum and then classify and store them? Is that not what the Samyukta does? For like I said earlier, I've heard some funny (not funny if you're a piglet or TSPA/Lizard officer) stories about Samyukta to pic up conversations and how.

Also, can someone give more gyaan on this radar? Are we going to phase out THD 1955 with these (given their range)?

Please to enlighten

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Aug 2010 10:59

chackojoseph wrote:
Singha wrote:is this the full incarnation of Samyukta?
No. See what they are doing is centrally networking all the radars in the country. If you look at it part by part.

1) it can see everything inside (within scope) Afghanistan.
2) IOR up to 300 kms
3) Good part of Tibet.
4) Whatever on the Burmese side.

It will create a holistic picture. Currently, its not happening.

CJ, thank you for details.

So, what we now have (or will have in medium term) a fully integrated AD Network and this ground radar will be at the apex? And AWACS will also feed into this netowork? And may be these are replacement for THD-1955? Thanx.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 04 Aug 2010 11:01

They are not adding or replacing radars. They are merely (huge task though) connecting all of them with a control room located some where which is to be decided.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Aug 2010 11:04

^^^OK.Thanx.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 04 Aug 2010 11:09

rohitvats wrote: CJ, thank you for details.

So, what we now have (or will have in medium term) a fully integrated AD Network and this ground radar will be at the apex? And AWACS will also feed into this netowork? And may be these are replacement for THD-1955? Thanx.

The out put will be whatever the services decide. But, yes, with mijjle proliferation, its focused on AD. As I said, they are merely networking, they can add or delete any module like AWACS etc.

Once an output is achieved, it makes it an Decision support system (DSS). Individual modules will do what they need to do. For example if ABM, then the ABM radars will do its task. Just that it makes decision better and holistic. Secondly it brings redundancy. All the time AWACS need not be in air except critical sector. If you talk about specific function of AWACS like detecting, then this system is a duplication. But AWACS can do other things too.

Its like your USB port. Add what you like.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 04 Aug 2010 14:33

Noob Doubt,
If its a radar network how will it work in collecting SIGINT, since, AFAIK, they work on completely different freq bands...

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 04 Aug 2010 18:01

Bala Vignesh wrote:Noob Doubt,
If its a radar network how will it work in collecting SIGINT, since, AFAIK, they work on completely different freq bands...

You are right in asking that.

The info I gave was of 2005, when it was displayed as a DRDO concept. Now the user must have given his modified requirement. So, there must be changes from the original.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 04 Aug 2010 18:24

abhishek_sharma wrote:Russian firm offers knowhow

http://www.hindu.com/2010/08/04/stories ... 771300.htm

A leading Russian manufacturer is ready to share with India sophisticated technology for building flight simulators to train military pilots. Their use would help to reduce operational cost and the accident rate in the Indian Air Force.

This is interesting.. I think India's growing fondness to Canadian firm CAE for flight simulator tech seems to have startled the Russian's a tad. CAE is already helping DRDO for simulators for Arjun tank, has offered simulators for the T-72 & T-90 (tie-up with TATA), Hindustan Aeronautics Limited HAL-CAE will commission HATSOFF later this year in Bangalor, which will allow the switching around of various cockpits, including the Bell 412, the military Dhruv, and the Dauphin..

Looks like the Russian's want a piece of the simulator pie as well. Meanwhile wonder if the contract for the HAWK AJT's include a flight sim as well?

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 04 Aug 2010 20:42

IAF expects combat jet selection within a year

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has submitted a report on the trials it has conducted on six combat jets it is evaluating for an order for 126 aircraft and expects the selection of the fighter within a year.

The IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik, is quoted by India Strategic defence magazine (www.indiastrategic.in) as saying that the exhaustive field evaluation trials (FET) report covered all the aircraft in contention, and that once the selection has been made, he expected the chosen jet to be in service within three years, say by 2014.

Naik also disclosed that after completing the combat jet trials, the IAF had also completed the field trials of utility helicopters and combat helicopters. The trials of the heavy-lift helicopters were, meanwhile, in the final phase.

‘The next four years are crucial but by 2014, IAF would have all the new aircraft and helicopters well in place as part of its transformation process now underway,’ India Strategic quotes Naik as saying in its coming issue.

Each system is being acquired along with its training simulators.

As for the combat jet selection process, the air chief gave no indication as to how each of the six aircraft in the fray performed during the trials. He only observed that the IAF had completed its assignment and submitted the report to the defence ministry July-end – on time as promised.

The Russian Mig-35 (initially designated Mig-29M2), Europe’s Eurofighter Typhoon, the Swedish Gripen, the French Rafale, and the US Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Lockheed Martin’s F-16IN Super Viper are in the fray. The IAF tender is for 126 aircraft with an option for 63 more.

As for the combat helicopters, Naik said that both the Russian

Mi-28 and US Boeing Apache AH 64D had been tested in India. Some weapon trials are due to be conducted in the country of origin. The IAF had issued a request for proposal for 22 combat helicopters to replace its ageing Soviet vintage Mi-35s.

Trials of Boeing’s Chinook CH 47F heavy-lift helicopter had also been completed, while that of Russian Mi-26 were likely to be held this month. The IAF needs 15 heavy-lift helicopters to replace and augment its ageing fleet of half-a-dozen obsolete Mi-26s acquired in the mid-1980s.

Trials of the utility helicopters, needed both for the IAF and the Indian Army, are also over. The Eurocopter Fennec 555 and Russia’s Kamov 226 are the two contenders. The two services have tendered for a combined order of 197 helicopters.

All aircraft and helicopters are required to operate in the varied hot, humid, desert and high altitude environment of India, particularly to support the deployments in the Himalayan region.

The IAF wants to minimize its inventory of its flying machines to reduce their maintenance costs on the one hand and to increase their operational availability on the other.

Naik said that appropriate infrastructure and communication nodes were also being created as part of the IAF’s transformation process now underway.

The IAF aims to have 45 combat squadrons – approximately 800 aircraft – by 2022. Of these, it is already set to acquire more than 270 Sukhoi Su-30MKI air dominance aircraft from Russia. These include 42 aircraft being ordered through India’s state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, which is making the aircraft under the licence and transfer of technology (ToT) routes.

http://idrw.org/?p=186

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 04 Aug 2010 20:52

^^^ Add-on to Karan's post above. Original article link from India Strategic..

http://indiastrategic.in/topstories684.htm

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 04 Aug 2010 20:55

MOD press release..

Modernization of AN-32 Fleet of IAF

India and Ukraine have signed a contract on Modernisation of one hundred and five AN-32 fleet of Indian Air Force (IAF). This contract was signed on June 15, 2009 for Total Life Extension, Overhaul and Re-equipment of AN-32 fleet of Indian Air Force. The up-to-date equipment which will be fitted on the aircraft during modernization include avionics and hydraulic systems, etc. The life of AN-32 aircraft will be increased by 15 years up to 40 years. First batch of aircraft has already been positioned in Ukraine.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 04 Aug 2010 21:45

^^^ CAE are the leaders in simulator technology and can offer good prices due to the fact they make more of them than most others

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 04 Aug 2010 22:11

U.S. Dilutes Defence Technology to India

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has managed to contract six aircraft from the US at a price of $1 billion and it will be used by the Special Forces in the IAF. However, India’s refusal to sign the Communications Inter-Operability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA) will mean that the aircraft will be delivered sans military grade secure equipment.
...
According to sources, the Indian Coast Guard and the Border Security Force will also be receiving two Hercules aircraft each. The Hercules aircraft will be based at Hindon, East of Delhi, where the IAF base is being revamped.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 04 Aug 2010 22:23

Brando wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote: India ordered the SpecOps version of the C-130J that does come with aerial refueling capability

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ind ... ces-02224/
That just says that the C130J for India is specific to the Special Forces now but the C130J also has a capacity to act as an aerial refueler in the future should India hope to avail itself of such an ability from the US. However the version ordered by India is simply a stretch version of the C130J, which has no aerial refueling pods.

If India had ordered the HC130J or the KC130J, then they could have come with aerial refuling capability but the C130J-30 which India and a lot of other countries have ordered is merely a stretched version.

Just to update this, India's C-130s do come with air-refueling capability

http://lmalc.external.lmco.com/products ... index.html

In addition the aircraft is equipped with air-to-air receiver refueling capability for extended range operations. Lockheed Martin will integrate this equipment and other capabilities into the Indian configuration as agreed between the governments.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 04 Aug 2010 22:46

GeorgeWelch wrote:India's C-130s do come with air-refueling capability

You are most probably right about the capability. I have read similar things elsewhere as well, but most of them were rip offs of the LM page on the Indian C-130Js.

However, The pictures of the C-130Js at Marietta released by LM show no refuelling probe. Do you know if they are fitted later?

Although, C-130J as a refuelling tanker is well-known, Is there any other C-130J with the in-flight receiver refuelling capability. C-130Ks (for RAF) had receiver refuelling pods.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Aug 2010 23:26

Russian wanting to partner with India on Simulator Tech...hmmmm.....was it not fairly recently that Russians threw tantrum because we went to 3rd party for development of simulator for T-90...violation of IPR they said...and that only they can provide simulator for T-90....tch tch.....money makes compromises that much easier....

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 05 Aug 2010 00:40

indranilroy wrote:However, The pictures of the C-130Js at Marietta released by LM show no refuelling probe. Do you know if they are fitted later?

No, I believe they will only act as a tanker, not a receiver.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 05 Aug 2010 01:02

GeorgeWelch wrote:
indranilroy wrote:However, The pictures of the C-130Js at Marietta released by LM show no refuelling probe. Do you know if they are fitted later?
No, I believe they will only act as a tanker, not a receiver.

Don't know for sure. The LM link confuses me.

In addition the aircraft is equipped with air-to-air receiver refueling capability for extended range operations.

Luxtor · Post by **Luxtor** » 05 Aug 2010 03:24

chackojoseph wrote:They are not adding or replacing radars. They are merely (huge task though) connecting all of them with a control room located some where which is to be decided.

Currently many parts of our borders are not covered by fixed radar. So as part of the Samyukta project these gaps will need to be filled with new radars and all air defense/surveillance radars + EW/ECM systems will be linked to a central location so real time picture of what's happening around the outside of the entire borders of the country can be monitored. This is essential if we get into a war with the pukis, because we would want to know what their chicom friends would be doing to help them out by harassing us, trying to divert our attention and our resources away from our fight with the pukis.

sum · Post by **sum** » 05 Aug 2010 08:59

According to sources, the Indian Coast Guard and the Border Security Force will also be receiving two Hercules aircraft each. The Hercules aircraft will be based at Hindon, East of Delhi, where the IAF base is being revamped.

So, we are getting 10 C-130Js ( 6 IAF + 4 paramil) ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Aug 2010 09:24

I have seen a pic of C130 tanker refueling a MH53 heli equipped with a really long probe to clear the big rotors. the problem is if the probe snaps up during violent moves and hits the rotor it will be trouble. perhaps a telescoping stubby probe is the answer. very niche role though...onlee useful in Eagle Claw type ops. I think we can manage without it.
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m313 ... 1cd212.jpg

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Aug 2010 09:32

And then there is a video of the probe hitting rotors of it's own chopper (MH-53) due to some violent oitch movement...check it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyAMC7miuy4

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Aug 2010 09:46

rohitvats wrote:And then there is a video of the probe hitting rotors of it's own chopper (MH-53) due to some violent oitch movement...check it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyAMC7miuy4

If that was an Indian helicopter by Indian designers I would describe that as an idiotic design by imbeciles, who should learn from the experts. But this is American - world leaders. If they design something it is always good - so my mouth is going to be zipped up